On Remedial Measures Difference (Resolving Points)

March 4, 2009

Dear Rajarshi and SS,

Sorry to interrupt your wonderful debate, but see Rajarshi I have only one

point to make: we have some historical evidence already in place, why dont you

take a look? To me the crowning statement of this discussion is SS's " Rules and

Surrender both have their place " . Rajarshi, the Abraham who I keep mentioning,

is actually the most influential man ever born, since his philosophy led to the

three religions Christianity, Islam and Judaism which collectively have about 4

*billion* followers today. His philosophy was the " final resting point " /logical

conclusion of your line of thinking. And that philosophy in essence was - get

rid of the rules, the deities, the rituals, EVERYTHING, and SURRENDER TO THE ONE

AND ONLY GOD, because SURRENDER IS ALL THAT'S IMPORTANT, THE DISTINCTIONS ARE

UNIMPORTANT. But what did we get from that? Sure enough, people's psychologies

led them again to create more rules, more Gods etc (the jews and muslims are

mortal enemies, so are the muslims and christians). Simply observing history, my

guess is the following: As you spiritually progress, you *start* from Rules, go

through varying degrees of surrender, and *end* up in complete Surrender and

extinction of the ego. Each must go through this entire spiritual journey. To

shortcut new/average aspirants straight to surrender is useless, as your

philosophy, if followed to its logical conclusion, *must* eventually advocate.

Regards,

Sundeep

sohamsa , rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14 wrote:

>

> Namaste SS

>

> I have given some comments on some points. Kindly check.

>

> -Regards

> Rajarshi

>

> The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

>

> --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak wrote:

>

> Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak

> On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)

> sohamsa

> Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 7:24 PM

Dear Rajarshi,

>

> Can we just pray endlesslessly and hope that the Right thing drops into our

lap someday? It will - in due course of time - but what about when you need it

here and now?

> Why not? This is the change in the degree of faith that comes through

sadhana.The more sadhana one does, the more his faith gets cemented and THAT can

change A LOT of things. So there it comes back to what you had stated and I had

elaborated in my previous mail. Faith CAN move mountains. Haven't Sri

Ramakrishna Paramhamsa said that?

> And..Who decides what is Right?

> Medicine for one may be posion for another.

> There is NO greater medicine that surrenderance to a deity which works

universally for everyone. One does not have to be a jyotish to know this.

> A mother who's child is very sick will try out everything that she thinks is

right hoping that something will cure her child.

> Of course.

>

> Surrender has to be complemented with the Right Action.

> Not necessarily. Surrenderance itself is the right actions, as it becomes more

and more perfect the Deity Himself/Herself with guide you into what is to be

done and what is not to be done.

>

> Who decides what is the right action?

> Please check above.

>

> At that moment she needs the right thing and follow the right rules of

treatment - on other days, when the child is not sick, she can take the

preventive approach (~regular sadhana) to make sure that disease to the child

does not happen.

> I disagree. With regular sadhana you strike a connection with your Deity such

that the Deity will guide you. This is the benefit of sadhana. This is the most

desireable situation. That is what I have said before as well. Sadhana is not

like going on a one day picnic, seperate from the everyday daily work. It is

what needs to be integrated into a daily habit. Daily.

> May be building up immunity to disease is like sadhana...so how many would be

there who would never fall sick and need a remedy despite prevention.. .

> The idea is to form a connection with a Higher Power, one that can be trusted

without a hitch. Unlike ordinary humans.

>

> Of course, as i said earlier, Everything has a Limitation.

> [the mother, the doctor, the medicine, the sadhaka...]

> Sadhana does not have any limitation. It is like an ocean. I feel.

>

> Rules and Surrender both have their place. A person in name of surrender to

almighty may go on a killing spree thinking that he's alleviating people's

suffering as living in the world is a suffering - what do we say to that?

> Surrendering is an internal process. You point is purely theoritical. Does not

happen in reality. Or else are you saying all the saints who have graced this

land are mistaken when the speak that surrenderance is the key to deliverance

from misery? And all kinds of misery. Physical, emotional and

spiritual.Threefold.

>

> yes, of course, i agree to what as u said, one cant stretch rules, and that

applies to rules of medicine and mantra, but then as i said, who is to decide

what is right?

> You do not even have to bother about right and wrong if only you can make

yourself to trust your deity implicitly. That trust does not come by just words.

It comes by continuoes internal fights. The first practical step of which is to

start any sadhana. Any sadhana.

> needless to say, all that is possible with jyotisha and mantra and sadhana

too.

> Not with sadhana, nope, unless your definition of sadhana is different from

mine.

>

> and, We, are just going round and round in poruing out what we think, but,

> What one follows/does is upto oneself, and results/consequence s are for

oneself to bear.

>

> This round and round process will keep happneing as long as is stuck in the

realm of word plays. I feel. Sadhana is a practical experinces. And considering

the fact that life is so uncertain, it is the most practical philosophy to try

and attach one self to a higher power for which one has to start, actually start

with sadhana.

>

> Best Regards,

> SS

>

> sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear SS

> >

> > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then

one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give

(as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the

right remedy, the right insight.... :-)

> >

> > EXACTLY! That is the bottomline. The idea of surrenderance to God, humility

towards Him/Her and serious prayer. This should be given far greater

precedence and emphasis than any amount of rules. To be able to do that, one has

to reduce his/her own ego. To be able to reduce ego, one has to do sadhana -.

Therefore, the point is instead of bothering too much about rules, start off

some sadhana so that it helps to give you some solid ground to stand on in

this world which is otherwise replete with uncertainties at every level.

> >

> > Isn't this logical and fair?

> >

> > -Regards

> > Rajarshi

> >

> > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> >

> > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>

> > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)

> > sohamsa@ .com

> > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 6:08 PM

> >

> > Hi Rajarshi,

> >

> > I too agree with what you say, and isnt it a fact that there are equal

chances of being misguided by someone who thinks is very advanced spiritually

and makes one believe so?

> > There is no guarantee to anything. Sometimes one has to move by one's own

sense of judgement of what one has to follow - whether it comes from a jyotishi

or so called spiritual guru or a medicine prescribed by a doctor. Even that

(one's sense of judgement) may turn out to be not so right.

> > Everything has a limitation.

> > So even a common man may be bewildered going from text to text which claim

one deity to be superior to the rest while others claim 'That It is Not'....

until one realises The Truth.

> > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then

one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give

(as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the

right remedy, the right insight.... :-)

> >

> > Best Regards,

> > SS

> >

> > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear SS

> > >

> > > I quite agree with your mail. And I am not saying that prescribing a

mantra by jyotish is incorrect. Of course not.

> > >

> > > However, the point of discussion is mainting of a balance, and not over

stretching anything. The rules of mantra shastra are good and solid, but the

idea is if in the process of judging the best rule for the best mantra for the

best time and best direction etc ec, ones mind gets over-awed by so many

parameters and loses out on the necessary discipline/ground work required for

making any mantra work, what is the use of that then? The question is one of

degree.

> > >

> > > What is the gaurantee that the due to some reason or the other the jyotish

has not made a mistake in the mantra shastra calculations and given an incorrect

mantra? Mahamaya can delude anyone. I am just stating a theoritical yet very

practical possibilit y. So what is a practical insurance against such a chance?

Jyotish is perfect. Mantra-shastra is perfect. But jyotishis are not

always perfect, like any other human being. I feel , a better insurance against

such realistic possiblities is to have a humble sense of surrender to the Deity

rather than raking the mind to extreme levels trying to figure out the best

possiblity without really being 100 percent sure that there will not be

a mistake (however slight) in the process.

> > >

> > > I will give a small practical example from my experience. I had been once

given a mantra by a person I respect a lot. I had never even heard of the deity

of that mantra before. I religiously chanted the mantra for nearly two years,

where as when I tried analysing the mantra using the rules of mantra shastra, I

found it is comes as manta that should ideally cause me harm. And yet it never

did anything like that. I still hang on that mantra. So obviously I must have

miscalculated or missed out some sub clause or something. Instead of chanting

the mantra directly, if I had known about these mantra shatra analysis

techniques then and tried it with my imperfect knowledge, I may have never

ventured into chanting the mantra.

> > >

> > > So in the end, I am not saying mantras for remedies are useless. Of course

not. But rather than over emphasis on high level subtle rules which have an

equal chance of being miscalculated, a change in attitude (even for an average

short-term gain mantra) may be of more practical use.

> > >

> > > -Regards

> > > Rajarshi

> > >

> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > >

> > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:

> > >

> > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>

> > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)

> > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 1:50 PM

> > >

> > > Yes Rajarshi, your are right regarding theory and application of it. Yet,

everyone may not be having the same spiritual insight or have done the same

ground work as you say or have the same understanding of the process. But

atleast there is hope that out of all those who seek fast remedies through

mantras, there would be atleast some that may get to have a veiw of that spark

of the universal consciousness may be even for a brief span (span = here

attention/awareness becomes more important than the time) and some, out of those

few, may be instigated/inspired to make a move towards realising that Truth,

while some may be those who find once again the connection they lost from

previous birth - you never know...all those who come to seek the remedies may

not become qualified jet pilots at one go (of course with rigorous training) -

but atleast learn to drive some vehicle or the other and learn more about how to

improve their driving skills if the inner

> > drive

> > > comes through...and if they dont, well, it is their level of spiritual

growth - isn't it? may be they even end up calling the astrologer as incompetent

- who is to blame?

> > >

> > > 2 people reading the same (spiritual) text may interpret it differently

and argue about it's meaning, while the Zen master may hit their head with the

proverbial stick and tell them that " the tao that can be described in words is

not the real tao " .

> > >

> > > Does that mean that all (spiritual) text is invalid?

> > > The answer is " yes " AND " no " ...or may be even " Neither " .

> > > That is because it depends on the relativity of the observer's locus.

> > >

> > > I would just quote Bharat again here, as he's already said it:

> > > " Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific

> > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The

> > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it

> > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall

> > > come automatically with their spiritual " growth " and understanding. "

> > >

> > > Best Regards,

> > > SS

> > >

> > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear SS

> > > >

> > > > Correct. The idea is one of practical application and one of theoritical

discussion. As you rightly mentioned easier said than done. The question is why

is it easier said than done, that is because unless one is ready to follow at

least some parts of the rules, disciples and as Narasimha says, the idea of

humility (being a begger), most mantras wont work in teh short span inspite of

following all theoritical rules. Unless you are already a " ready " canditate with

all the " ground work " having already been done.

> > > >

> > > > I have come across people using plenty of mantras for very short

purposes and yet not achieving any results at all. Whereas there are those who

can use specific mantras for specific purposes and achive such results. What is

the difference? The " ground work " . is the difference I feel.

> > > >

> > > > -Regards

> > > > Rajarshi

> > > >

> > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra

> > > >

> > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>

> > > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving

Points)

> > > > sohamsa@ .com

> > > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 12:35 PM

> > > >

> > > > " For those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant

reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends from it, they

gain only that much. "

> > > > " Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. "

> > > >

> > > > thanx Bharat.

> > > >

> > > > dear all,

> > > >

> > > > If we understands this, it will bring much peace.

> > > > else repeat OMmmmmmm.... ..and 'become' the SILENCE....isnt that the end

to all troubles? Easier said than done.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards,

> > > > SS

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@

....

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste Sundeep

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please pardon my intervention. Hindus are not idol worshipers. And

> > > > > > it is the Hindus who know that Lord only is. They do not use the

> > > > > > word " one " , since " one " presupposes " two " and " three " ... and so on.

> > > > > > Since Lord only is, the entirety is contained within in including

> > > > > > all time, space and causation. Every object, every being is

> > > > > > contained within the Lord. For an untrained mind, it is difficult to

> > > > > > consume this. To focus one's attention to this principle he needs

> > > > > > something tangible. So an object that can signify this principle to

> > > > > > the person becomes an object of worship. Once this shape is given to

> > > > > > the object... it is never considered an Idol. It is worshipped as

> > > > > > God itself. Noone goes to the temple and says " Hey Idol, .... " ,

> > > > > > everyone fold their hands and say " Hey Krishna or Hey Rama or Hey

> > > > > > Shiva ..... " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The people who wrongly call hindus idol worshippers are themselves

> > > > > > worshipping the idols. What is a cross? What is a the book Koran or

> > > > > > the image of Mecca or the words " Allah Hu Akbar " inscribed on a

> > > > > > plate? These all are Idols. Aren't they?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So long is there a world and realization does not dawn upon oneself,

> > > > > > one would need something to focus their mind with. This in our

> > > > > > scriptures have been suggested through various ways:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Shapes and Symbols

> > > > > > 2. Elements

> > > > > > 3. Upasanas: Observing the nature and relating it to the Truth. Like

> > > > > > endless is the space and time and relating the quality of endless to

> > > > > > the Truth.

> > > > > > 4. Mantra Japa- Herein the sound reverberates with the certain

> > > > > > element/aspect of nature. To that root is added our request. For

> > > > > > those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant

> > > > > > reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends

> > > > > > from it, they gain only that much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Therefore Sundeep, I request you to study our culture more and you

> > > > > > shall find nothing that is sane and truthful missing from it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sri Narasimha is suggesting that we do not command the Lord and

> > > > > > worship him undertaking any appealing mantra - which essentially

> > > > > > means that the more we understand its meaning the idea of the Lord

> > > > > > shall become clearer and clearer in our minds. This approach is for

> > > > > > spiritual aspirants who are willing to " let go themselves in the

> > > > > > hands of the lord " . This is something that one has to realize for

> > > > > > oneself and not impose on others. Furthermore, it should not be

> > > > > > called " begging " . There is no difference between the Lord and our

> > > > > > True Self. To call ourselves beggars is to defile us and Srimad

> > > > > > Bhagavad Gita warns against such a self judgement.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific

> > > > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The

> > > > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it

> > > > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall

> > > > > > come automatically with their spiritual " growth " and understanding.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope this helps

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > > > Bharat

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:07 AM, vedicastrostudent

<vedicastrostudent@ ...

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji (and it might help others to read this fully too,

> > > > > > trust me you may well be satisfied),

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First, let me say I am not about to either agree/disagree with you.

I

> > > > > > am only standing back and observing/categoriz ing your approach, and

> > > > > > comparing it historical events that will give me a sense of the

final

> > > > > > import of your approach.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you read about Abraham, the supposed " father " of the three

> > > > > > religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) that have together had

the

> > > > > > most following among all religions in the world (ever). As far as I

> > > > > > know, he lived in a time of deities and ritual. He is supposedly the

> > > > > > first to have actively sought to bring the notion of one God to the

> > > > > > masses. He destroyed idols much to the dissatisfaction of lots

around

> > > > > > him. Apparently God revealed himself to Abraham several times.

> > > > > > Abraham submitted himself completely to the will of God, always,

> > > > > > without question. It seems logical to conclude that he destroyed and

> > > > > > denounced idolatry because he felt, at the very least, that focus on

> > > > > > the multiplicity of deity and webs of rituals took *away* a person's

> > > > > > focus from the real thing - submission to the one and only God

(which

> > > > > > is what Abraham was really about i.e. submission to the one and only

> > > > > > God). Before jumping to any conclusions about what I am trying to

say,

> > > > > > please read on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Me, I'm fascinated by religious psychology, i.e. what drives people

to

> > > > > > believe in God and how. I *dont seek to denounce* either Abraham or

> > > > > > the idolaters (Hindus would obviously come to mind here), only to

> > > > > > understand them. The way I have found to unify these two seemingly

> > > > > > contradictory approaches is the following, and perhaps it will help

> > > > > > you as well: God is *eventually only one* of course and " resides "

deep

> > > > > > within us, and projects himself (I use " project " in exactly the

sense

> > > > > > Michal describes) in various ways into human experience. As people

get

> > > > > > spiritually elevated, the projections become less necessary and they

> > > > > > are able to have a more and more direct experience of God.

> > > > > > Consequently, they start forgetting the role the projections

> > > > > > *originally had in the beginning of their path* and consider the

most

> > > > > > important thing to be the complete submission to the *growing* inner

> > > > > > light of God within themselves.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My feeling is that that is what happened to Abraham, and is what is

> > > > > > happening to you as well. Psychologically and astrologically

speaking,

> > > > > > the examples you choose to illustrate your point betray your

> > > > > > psychology. You have unconsciously chosen an example of a mountain,

> > > > > > with the *final God experience* sitting on top. That final God

> > > > > > experience is the Sun, astrologically speaking i.e. the source, the

> > > > > > symbol of the growing inner light within *you*. The various paths to

> > > > > > the top that you talk about represent, I think, Mercury, with its

> > > > > > various forms and distinctions (Prithvi tattwa?). As you behold the

> > > > > > Sun, the king, in all his magnificence, everything else pales in

> > > > > > comparison. And sure enough, you start posting that all the paths

are

> > > > > > unimportant :-)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But see, not everyone is there yet, all the distinctions and dates

and

> > > > > > rituals are important, because they will unerringly lead one there,

as

> > > > > > they did for you. At least that's what I have gathered after

listening

> > > > > > to Sanjayji and all the gurus on this group..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sundeep

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger

../

> > > >

> > >

> > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.

/ invite/

> > >

> >

> > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.

/ invite/

> >

>

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger./invite/

>

March 5, 2009

Dear Sundeep

I quite agree with you. I don't think I have been saying anything essentially different from what you are saying here. Only, the issue I am stressing on is "devotion", "faith", "surrenderence" to a higher power (any deity) as being of more importance that "obscure rules". Mind you, I am talking about rules which are not the standard accepted stuff across centuries. To understand that, one does not need to understand a lot of "complex" mantra shastra. There are some basic accepted rules already in place. Add a whole lot of FAITH into the process and chances of your success will be much higher. The key for me is faith and a very palpable sort of faith. Not just a theoritical statement.

-Regards

Rajarshi

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 5/3/09, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent wrote:

vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)sohamsa Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 12:28 AM

Dear Rajarshi and SS,Sorry to interrupt your wonderful debate, but see Rajarshi I have only one point to make: we have some historical evidence already in place, why dont you take a look? To me the crowning statement of this discussion is SS's "Rules and Surrender both have their place". Rajarshi, the Abraham who I keep mentioning, is actually the most influential man ever born, since his philosophy led to the three religions Christianity, Islam and Judaism which collectively have about 4 *billion* followers today. His philosophy was the "final resting point"/logical conclusion of your line of thinking. And that philosophy in essence was - get rid of the rules, the deities, the rituals, EVERYTHING, and SURRENDER TO THE ONE AND ONLY GOD, because SURRENDER IS ALL THAT'S IMPORTANT, THE DISTINCTIONS ARE UNIMPORTANT. But what did we get from that? Sure enough, people's psychologies led them again to create more rules, more Gods etc (the jews and

muslims are mortal enemies, so are the muslims and christians). Simply observing history, my guess is the following: As you spiritually progress, you *start* from Rules, go through varying degrees of surrender, and *end* up in complete Surrender and extinction of the ego. Each must go through this entire spiritual journey. To shortcut new/average aspirants straight to surrender is useless, as your philosophy, if followed to its logical conclusion, *must* eventually advocate.Regards,Sundeepsohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:>> > Namaste SS> > I have given some comments on some points. Kindly check.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The

upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> sohamsa@ .com> Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 7:24 PM> > > > > > > Dear Rajarshi,> > Can we just pray endlesslessly and hope that the Right thing drops into our lap someday? It will - in due course of time - but what about when you need it here and now?> Why not? This is the change in the degree of faith that comes through sadhana.The more sadhana one does, the more his faith gets cemented and THAT can change A LOT of

things. So there it comes back to what you had stated and I had elaborated in my previous mail. Faith CAN move mountains. Haven't Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa said that? > And..Who decides what is Right?> Medicine for one may be posion for another.> There is NO greater medicine that surrenderance to a deity which works universally for everyone. One does not have to be a jyotish to know this.> A mother who's child is very sick will try out everything that she thinks is right hoping that something will cure her child.> Of course.> > Surrender has to be complemented with the Right Action. > Not necessarily. Surrenderance itself is the right actions, as it becomes more and more perfect the Deity Himself/Herself with guide you into what is to be done and what is not to be done.> > Who decides what is the right action?> Please check above. > > At that moment she

needs the right thing and follow the right rules of treatment - on other days, when the child is not sick, she can take the preventive approach (~regular sadhana) to make sure that disease to the child does not happen. > I disagree. With regular sadhana you strike a connection with your Deity such that the Deity will guide you. This is the benefit of sadhana. This is the most desireable situation. That is what I have said before as well. Sadhana is not like going on a one day picnic, seperate from the everyday daily work. It is what needs to be integrated into a daily habit. Daily. > May be building up immunity to disease is like sadhana...so how many would be there who would never fall sick and need a remedy despite prevention.. .> The idea is to form a connection with a Higher Power, one that can be trusted without a hitch. Unlike ordinary humans.> > Of course, as i said earlier, Everything has a Limitation.>

[the mother, the doctor, the medicine, the sadhaka...] > Sadhana does not have any limitation. It is like an ocean. I feel.> > Rules and Surrender both have their place. A person in name of surrender to almighty may go on a killing spree thinking that he's alleviating people's suffering as living in the world is a suffering - what do we say to that? > Surrendering is an internal process. You point is purely theoritical. Does not happen in reality. Or else are you saying all the saints who have graced this land are mistaken when the speak that surrenderance is the key to deliverance from misery? And all kinds of misery. Physical, emotional and spiritual.Threefold .> > yes, of course, i agree to what as u said, one cant stretch rules, and that applies to rules of medicine and mantra, but then as i said, who is to decide what is right? > You do not even have to bother about right and wrong if only you can

make yourself to trust your deity implicitly. That trust does not come by just words. It comes by continuoes internal fights. The first practical step of which is to start any sadhana. Any sadhana.> needless to say, all that is possible with jyotisha and mantra and sadhana too.> Not with sadhana, nope, unless your definition of sadhana is different from mine.> > and, We, are just going round and round in poruing out what we think, but,> What one follows/does is upto oneself, and results/consequence s are for oneself to bear.> > This round and round process will keep happneing as long as is stuck in the realm of word plays. I feel. Sadhana is a practical experinces. And considering the fact that life is so uncertain, it is the most practical philosophy to try and attach one self to a higher power for which one has to start, actually start with sadhana.> > Best Regards,> SS >

> sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Dear SS> > > > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give (as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the right remedy, the right insight.... :-) > > > > > > > > EXACTLY! That is the bottomline. The idea of surrenderance to God, humility towards Him/Her and serious prayer. This should be given far greater precedence and emphasis than any amount of rules. To be able to do that, one has to reduce his/her own ego. To be able to reduce ego, one has to do sadhana -. Therefore, the point is instead of bothering too much about rules, start off some sadhana so that it helps to give you some

solid ground to stand on in this world which is otherwise replete with uncertainties at every level.> > > > Isn't this logical and fair?> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > sohamsa@ .com> > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 6:08 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Rajarshi,> > > > I too agree with what you say, and isnt it a fact that there are equal chances of being

misguided by someone who thinks is very advanced spiritually and makes one believe so? > > There is no guarantee to anything. Sometimes one has to move by one's own sense of judgement of what one has to follow - whether it comes from a jyotishi or so called spiritual guru or a medicine prescribed by a doctor. Even that (one's sense of judgement) may turn out to be not so right. > > Everything has a limitation.> > So even a common man may be bewildered going from text to text which claim one deity to be superior to the rest while others claim 'That It is Not'.... until one realises The Truth. > > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give (as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the right remedy, the right insight.... :-) > > > > Best

Regards,> > SS> > > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Dear SS> > > > > > I quite agree with your mail. And I am not saying that prescribing a mantra by jyotish is incorrect. Of course not. > > > > > > However, the point of discussion is mainting of a balance, and not over stretching anything. The rules of mantra shastra are good and solid, but the idea is if in the process of judging the best rule for the best mantra for the best time and best direction etc ec, ones mind gets over-awed by so many parameters and loses out on the necessary discipline/ground work required for making any mantra work, what is the use of that then? The question is one of degree.> > > > > > What is the gaurantee that the due to some reason or the other the

jyotish has not made a mistake in the mantra shastra calculations and given an incorrect mantra? Mahamaya can delude anyone. I am just stating a theoritical yet very practical possibilit y. So what is a practical insurance against such a chance? Jyotish is perfect. Mantra-shastra is perfect. But jyotishis are not always perfect, like any other human being. I feel , a better insurance against such realistic possiblities is to have a humble sense of surrender to the Deity rather than raking the mind to extreme levels trying to figure out the best possiblity without really being 100 percent sure that there will not be a mistake (however slight) in the process.> > > > > > I will give a small practical example from my experience. I had been once given a mantra by a person I respect a lot. I had never even heard of the deity of that mantra before. I religiously chanted the mantra for nearly

two years, where as when I tried analysing the mantra using the rules of mantra shastra, I found it is comes as manta that should ideally cause me harm. And yet it never did anything like that. I still hang on that mantra. So obviously I must have miscalculated or missed out some sub clause or something. Instead of chanting the mantra directly, if I had known about these mantra shatra analysis techniques then and tried it with my imperfect knowledge, I may have never ventured into chanting the mantra. > > > > > > So in the end, I am not saying mantras for remedies are useless. Of course not. But rather than over emphasis on high level subtle rules which have an equal chance of being miscalculated, a change in attitude (even for an average short-term gain mantra) may be of more practical use.> > > > > > -Regards> > > Rajarshi> > > > > > >

> > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > > sohamsa@ .com> > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 1:50 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Rajarshi, your are right regarding theory and application of it. Yet, everyone may not be having the same spiritual insight or have done the same ground work as you say or have the same understanding of the process. But atleast there is hope that out of all those who seek fast remedies through mantras, there would be atleast some that may get to have a veiw of that

spark of the universal consciousness may be even for a brief span (span = here attention/awareness becomes more important than the time) and some, out of those few, may be instigated/inspired to make a move towards realising that Truth, while some may be those who find once again the connection they lost from previous birth - you never know...all those who come to seek the remedies may not become qualified jet pilots at one go (of course with rigorous training) - but atleast learn to drive some vehicle or the other and learn more about how to improve their driving skills if the inner> > drive> > > comes through...and if they dont, well, it is their level of spiritual growth - isn't it? may be they even end up calling the astrologer as incompetent - who is to blame?> > > > > > 2 people reading the same (spiritual) text may interpret it differently and argue about it's meaning, while the Zen master may hit

their head with the proverbial stick and tell them that "the tao that can be described in words is not the real tao". > > > > > > Does that mean that all (spiritual) text is invalid? > > > The answer is "yes" AND "no"...or may be even "Neither". > > > That is because it depends on the relativity of the observer's locus.> > > > > > I would just quote Bharat again here, as he's already said it:> > > "Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall > > > come automatically with their spiritual "growth" and understanding. "> > > > > > Best Regards,> >

> SS> > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear SS> > > > > > > > Correct. The idea is one of practical application and one of theoritical discussion. As you rightly mentioned easier said than done. The question is why is it easier said than done, that is because unless one is ready to follow at least some parts of the rules, disciples and as Narasimha says, the idea of humility (being a begger), most mantras wont work in teh short span inspite of following all theoritical rules. Unless you are already a "ready" canditate with all the "ground work" having already been done.> > > > > > > > I have come across people using plenty of mantras for very short purposes and yet not achieving any results at all. Whereas there are those who can use specific mantras

for specific purposes and achive such results. What is the difference? The "ground work". is the difference I feel.> > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > > > sohamsa@ .com> > > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 12:35 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "For those who seek the truth, the mantra

japa serves as a constant reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends from it, they gain only that much."> > > > "Mantra Shastra helps both approaches."> > > > > > > > thanx Bharat.> > > > > > > > dear all,> > > > > > > > If we understands this, it will bring much peace.> > > > else repeat OMmmmmmm.... ..and 'become' the SILENCE....isnt that the end to all troubles? Easier said than done.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > SS> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ ... > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > Namaste Sundeep> > > > > >> > > >

> > Please pardon my intervention. Hindus are not idol worshipers. And > > > > > > it is the Hindus who know that Lord only is. They do not use the > > > > > > word "one", since "one" presupposes "two" and "three"... and so on. > > > > > > Since Lord only is, the entirety is contained within in including > > > > > > all time, space and causation. Every object, every being is > > > > > > contained within the Lord. For an untrained mind, it is difficult to > > > > > > consume this. To focus one's attention to this principle he needs > > > > > > something tangible. So an object that can signify this principle to > > > > > > the person becomes an object of worship. Once this shape is given to > > > > > > the object... it is never considered an Idol. It is

worshipped as > > > > > > God itself. Noone goes to the temple and says " Hey Idol, ...." , > > > > > > everyone fold their hands and say "Hey Krishna or Hey Rama or Hey > > > > > > Shiva .....".> > > > > >> > > > > > The people who wrongly call hindus idol worshippers are themselves > > > > > > worshipping the idols. What is a cross? What is a the book Koran or > > > > > > the image of Mecca or the words "Allah Hu Akbar" inscribed on a > > > > > > plate? These all are Idols. Aren't they?> > > > > >> > > > > > So long is there a world and realization does not dawn upon oneself, > > > > > > one would need something to focus their mind with. This in our > > > > > > scriptures have been suggested

through various ways:> > > > > >> > > > > > 1. Shapes and Symbols> > > > > > 2. Elements> > > > > > 3. Upasanas: Observing the nature and relating it to the Truth. Like > > > > > > endless is the space and time and relating the quality of endless to > > > > > > the Truth.> > > > > > 4. Mantra Japa- Herein the sound reverberates with the certain > > > > > > element/aspect of nature. To that root is added our request. For > > > > > > those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant > > > > > > reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends > > > > > > from it, they gain only that much.> > > > > >> > > > > > Therefore Sundeep, I request you

to study our culture more and you > > > > > > shall find nothing that is sane and truthful missing from it.> > > > > >> > > > > > Sri Narasimha is suggesting that we do not command the Lord and > > > > > > worship him undertaking any appealing mantra - which essentially > > > > > > means that the more we understand its meaning the idea of the Lord > > > > > > shall become clearer and clearer in our minds. This approach is for > > > > > > spiritual aspirants who are willing to "let go themselves in the > > > > > > hands of the lord". This is something that one has to realize for > > > > > > oneself and not impose on others. Furthermore, it should not be > > > > > > called "begging". There is no difference between the Lord and our >

> > > > > True Self. To call ourselves beggars is to defile us and Srimad > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita warns against such a self judgement.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific > > > > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The > > > > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it > > > > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall > > > > > > come automatically with their spiritual "growth" and understanding.> > > > > >> > > > > > Hope this helps> > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > > > Bharat> > > >

> >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:07 AM, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ... > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji (and it might help others to read this fully too,> > > > > > trust me you may well be satisfied),> > > > > >> > > > > > First, let me say I am not about to either agree/disagree with you. I> > > > > > am only standing back and observing/categoriz ing your approach, and> > > > > > comparing it historical events that will give me a sense of the final> > > > > > import of your

approach.> > > > > >> > > > > > If you read about Abraham, the supposed "father" of the three> > > > > > religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) that have together had the> > > > > > most following among all religions in the world (ever). As far as I> > > > > > know, he lived in a time of deities and ritual. He is supposedly the> > > > > > first to have actively sought to bring the notion of one God to the> > > > > > masses. He destroyed idols much to the dissatisfaction of lots around> > > > > > him. Apparently God revealed himself to Abraham several times.> > > > > > Abraham submitted himself completely to the will of God, always,> > > > > > without question. It seems logical to conclude that he destroyed and> > > >

> > denounced idolatry because he felt, at the very least, that focus on> > > > > > the multiplicity of deity and webs of rituals took *away* a person's> > > > > > focus from the real thing - submission to the one and only God (which> > > > > > is what Abraham was really about i.e. submission to the one and only> > > > > > God). Before jumping to any conclusions about what I am trying to say,> > > > > > please read on.> > > > > >> > > > > > Me, I'm fascinated by religious psychology, i.e. what drives people to> > > > > > believe in God and how. I *dont seek to denounce* either Abraham or> > > > > > the idolaters (Hindus would obviously come to mind here), only to> > > > > > understand them. The way I have found to unify these two

seemingly> > > > > > contradictory approaches is the following, and perhaps it will help> > > > > > you as well: God is *eventually only one* of course and "resides" deep> > > > > > within us, and projects himself (I use "project" in exactly the sense> > > > > > Michal describes) in various ways into human experience. As people get> > > > > > spiritually elevated, the projections become less necessary and they> > > > > > are able to have a more and more direct experience of God.> > > > > > Consequently, they start forgetting the role the projections> > > > > > *originally had in the beginning of their path* and consider the most> > > > > > important thing to be the complete submission to the *growing* inner> > > > > > light of God within

themselves.> > > > > >> > > > > > My feeling is that that is what happened to Abraham, and is what is> > > > > > happening to you as well. Psychologically and astrologically speaking,> > > > > > the examples you choose to illustrate your point betray your> > > > > > psychology. You have unconsciously chosen an example of a mountain,> > > > > > with the *final God experience* sitting on top. That final God> > > > > > experience is the Sun, astrologically speaking i.e. the source, the> > > > > > symbol of the growing inner light within *you*. The various paths to> > > > > > the top that you talk about represent, I think, Mercury, with its> > > > > > various forms and distinctions (Prithvi tattwa?). As you behold the> > > >

> > Sun, the king, in all his magnificence, everything else pales in> > > > > > comparison. And sure enough, you start posting that all the paths are> > > > > > unimportant :-)> > > > > >> > > > > > But see, not everyone is there yet, all the distinctions and dates and> > > > > > rituals are important, because they will unerringly lead one there, as> > > > > > they did for you. At least that's what I have gathered after listening> > > > > > to Sanjayji and all the gurus on this group..> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >>

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in.messenger ./> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and

enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/>

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March 5, 2009

Namaste SS

As you rightly said, more words more interpretation. Essentially I do not see much where I disagree and some points which I feel are digressions from the essence of this specific discussion. Just a little clarification on some parts from my side:

i wanted to ask about the person who hasnt yet done that much amount of ground work as is necessary to move the mountain with faith.

One must do whatever is necessary, going to a doctor etc etc. But the point is not that. The point is one has to start somewhere to do the ground work, right or wrong? Without digressing from the topic at hand, which is a better start, trying to inculcate faith and surrenderance or trying to find the right mantra using mantra shastra?

what about someone who meets with an accident or fall sick? does he sit in surrenderance assuming that Deity will send the doctor? i am reminded of the story where the man drowned since he did not accept help from the boat/helicopter etc. during a flood since he had complete faith that God will save him.

And I am reminded of a poster I had seen in a doctors clinic, (a famous doctor) where he had a pic of Sri Ramakrishna and below which it was written: I (the doctor) treat, He (Sri Ramakrishna) heals. Anyway, I really do not see how this example in any way contradicts what I have said till now. Infact it is exact these times when a person call to God becomes more desperate internally.

If the issue is surrenderance and right action, when surrenderance is strong, the individual will get guided into the right action. Surrendence (when sufficiently strong) is like a super set of which right action is a subset. I am being clear?

what i am trying to say is that if one is, say, just a beginner and falls sick and needs help then what does one do? does he wait to accomplish advancement in the sadhana or seek help so that he is well again and can continue with the sadhana?

Correct. This is what even I have been saying, only in a little different way. I think I had clarified right at the beginning that I am not saying remedies in jyotish will not work or should not be advised. Of course not. But, the point is at every occasion such a thing is done is it not the duty of the jyotishi, (more than a doctor, a jyotishi) to try and advise a person on faith and surrenderance along with any remedies so prescribed? Maybe that incident can be a start for the person? So the issue, as I had mentioned right at the begining is one of giving the right importance to surrenderance and faith along with any remedies (assuming the person as per your example).

"that" is the prevention i am talking about - Establish the Connection - so that Right things come through and you never fall sick in the first place - but Practically how many can do that?

I think this has already been talked about Sir. If you refer to the previous mail between you and me. To do it, one has to start, and teh start is the sadhana. Are we going in a circular motion?

i said sadhaKa - not sadhaNa ...never mind...:-)

My mistake. I appologize. However, my answer still holds. I feel.

Not to say that Surrender or Sadhana has no value - question is how many can? and until they surrender what do you do when they are in need? do you give them a quickfix or just tell them that had you surrendered you would not have faced this situation... or go now surrender and do some sadhana....your Deity will save you someday ?

yes, ofcourse they should be taught about surrender - but how many can you expect will trot that path with 100% efficacy at one instuction of yours? most will fall repeatedly until they learn to walk properly. you can only try - take the horse to the pond - can you make it drink? but just hope that next time it's thirsty, it may remember the pond and find it's way to the pond!

I look at this from a different point of view. The question is not about how many can, or many will do, or whether it will be perfect or not perfect. The question is doing nothing Vs doing something. Some start is better than zero start. To take an analogy from a mail by Narasimhaji quite sometime back, if one has to make a journey from Kanya Kumari to Himalayas one has to start off. Even a one single step is an achievement. Or is it not?

Probably you would say in essence is that we shouldnt and we arent but people should know that the quickfix may not work with equal efficacy with all and at all times and that a quickfix is a quickfix and shouldnt be portrayed as the panacea - Right?

If yes, we are on the same page - not that it matters to the Almighty if we are not :-)

Yes we are on the same page Sir! All I am saying, and have been saying is, no harm in quick fixes, since our Rishis themselves have given us this Vedagna, the only point is do mention to people who come for quick fixes that this is indeed a quickfix solution to the essential problem and better and more profound solution (not easy for sure) is to start off some regular sadhana. That is all I am saying. Nothing more. -

-Regards

Rajarshi

The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra--- On Thu, 5/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak wrote:

Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)sohamsa Date: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 12:11 AM

Hi Rajarshri,

More words more interpretations

No words no interpretations

anyways....scroll down please...

sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@. ..> wrote:>> > Namaste SS> > I have given some comments on some points. Kindly check.> > -Regards> Rajarshi> > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak soulsadhak@. .. wrote:> > > Soul Sadhak soulsadhak@. ..> On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> sohamsa@ .com> Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 7:24 PM> > > Dear Rajarshi,> > Can we just pray endlesslessly and hope that the Right thing drops into our lap someday? It will - in due course of time - but what about when you need it here and now?> Why not? This is the change in the degree of faith that comes through

sadhana.The more sadhana one does, the more his faith gets cemented and THAT can change A LOT of things. So there it comes back to what you had stated and I had elaborated in my previous mail. Faith CAN move mountains. Haven't Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa said that?

i wanted to ask about the person who hasnt yet done that much amount of ground work as is necessary to move the mountain with faith.

I> And..Who decides what is Right?> Medicine for one may be posion for another.> There is NO greater medicine that surrenderance to a deity which works universally for everyone. One does not have to be a jyotish to know this.

what about someone who meets with an accident or fall sick? does he sit in surrenderance assuming that Deity will send the doctor? i am reminded of the story where the man drowned since he did not accept help from the boat/helicopter etc. during a flood since he had complete faith that God will save him.

> A mother who's child is very sick will try out everything that she thinks is right hoping that something will cure her child.> Of course.> > Surrender has to be complemented with the Right Action. > Not necessarily. Surrenderance itself is the right actions, as it becomes more and more perfect the Deity Himself/Herself with guide you into what is to be done and what is not to be done.please see above.

> Who decides what is the right action?> Please check above. > > At that moment she needs the right thing and follow the right rules of treatment - on other days, when the child is not sick, she can take the preventive approach (~regular sadhana) to make sure that disease to the child does not happen. > I disagree. With regular sadhana you strike a connection with your Deity such that the Deity will guide you. This is the benefit of sadhana. This is the most desireable situation. That is what I have said before as well. Sadhana is not like going on a one day picnic, seperate from the everyday daily work. It is what needs to be integrated into a daily habit. Daily.

I completely agree with the point that making connection is the foundation of everything else that follows and that Sadhana is not an ad hoc task - but how many people are doing it? what i am trying to say is that if one is, say, just a beginner and falls sick and needs help then what does one do? does he wait to accomplish advancement in the sadhana or seek help so that he is well again and can continue with the sadhana?

> May be building up immunity to disease is like sadhana...so how many would be there who would never fall sick and need a remedy despite prevention.. .> The idea is to form a connection with a Higher Power, one that can be trusted without a hitch. Unlike ordinary humans.

"that" is the prevention i am talking about - Establish the Connection - so that Right things come through and you never fall sick in the first place - but Practically how many can do that?

some kick from the divine is needed at times to remind the individuals that they need to establish the connection. when one is in trouble one remembers "God" - but as they say Jo sukh mein sumiran kare to dukh kaahe ko hoye?

yet, there are only a chosen few who take sukh and dukh with equal acceptance :-)

so what do ordinary humans do?

they just look for quick fix and then forget about the connection - so they keep falling sick...fine - that is their level...until they evolve...> > Of course, as i said earlier, Everything has a Limitation.> [the mother, the doctor, the medicine, the sadhaka...] > Sadhana does not have any limitation. It is like an ocean. I feel.

i said sadhaKa - not sadhaNa ...never mind...:-)> > Rules and Surrender both have their place. A person in name of surrender to almighty may go on a killing spree thinking that he's alleviating people's suffering as living in the world is a suffering - what do we say to that? > Surrendering is an internal process. You point is purely theoritical. Does not happen in reality. Or else are you saying all the saints who have graced this land are mistaken when the speak that surrenderance is the key to deliverance from misery? And all kinds of misery. Physical, emotional and spiritual.Threefold .well, i was thinking of hitler who said 'i recieved message from god' - or may be that wasnt true who knows...

Not to say that Surrender or Sadhana has no value - question is how many can? and until they surrender what do you do when they are in need? do you give them a quickfix or just tell them that had you surrendered you would not have faced this situation... or go now surrender and do some sadhana....your Deity will save you someday ?

yes, ofcourse they should be taught about surrender - but how many can you expect will trot that path with 100% efficacy at one instuction of yours? most will fall repeatedly until they learn to walk properly. you can only try - take the horse to the pond - can you make it drink? but just hope that next time it's thirsty, it may remember the pond and find it's way to the pond!

why do the buddhas refrain from nirvana and choose to stay back to guide - we know :-)

> yes, of course, i agree to what as u said, one cant stretch rules, and that applies to rules of medicine and mantra, but then as i said, who is to decide what is right? > You do not even have to bother about right and wrong if only you can make yourself to trust your deity implicitly. That trust does not come by just words. It comes by continuoes internal fights. The first practical step of which is to start any sadhana. Any sadhana.

please see above.

> needless to say, all that is possible with jyotisha and mantra and sadhana too.> Not with sadhana, nope, unless your definition of sadhana is different from mine.

it may appear so - and yes, different people may have different notion of sadhana until one realises What the Truth is and strives towards liberation. but, Just to exemplify, for common man, at one stage one may be doing a mantra sadhana and yet at another he gives up all mantras and tries to establish oneself in Silence - no words - no sound. That is yet another type of sadhana. In that sense...else, some being may ask one to do mahavidya sadhana or gayatri sadhana etc etc - so that kind of sadhana may have it's limitations depending on what one is seeking - one that seeks siddhis will get siddhis, one that seeks liberation will get liberation (in due course of time ofcourse and with due ?- Sadhana).

> > and, We, are just going round and round in poruing out what we think, but,> What one follows/does is upto oneself, and results/consequence s are for oneself to bear.> > This round and round process will keep happneing as long as is stuck in the realm of word plays. I feel. Sadhana is a practical experinces. And considering the fact that life is so uncertain, it is the most practical philosophy to try and attach one self to a higher power for which one has to start, actually start with sadhana.

No dispute there :-)

One has to know the importance of prevention and building up immunity [sadhana] and practise.... until then one goes round and round in the cycle of falling sick and looking for more and newer quickfixes.. ..should we tell people who give quickfixes that they shouldnt?

Probably you would say in essence is that we shouldnt and we arent but people should know that the quickfix may not work with equal efficacy with all and at all times and that a quickfix is a quickfix and shouldnt be portrayed as the panacea - Right?

If yes, we are on the same page - not that it matters to the Almighty if we are not :-)

> Best Regards,> SS > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> >> > > > Dear SS> > > > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give (as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the right remedy, the right insight.... :-) > > > > > > > > EXACTLY! That is the bottomline. The idea of surrenderance to God, humility towards Him/Her and serious prayer. This should be given far greater precedence and emphasis than any amount of rules. To be able to do that, one has to reduce his/her own ego. To be able to reduce ego, one has to do sadhana -. Therefore, the point is instead of bothering too much about

rules, start off some sadhana so that it helps to give you some solid ground to stand on in this world which is otherwise replete with uncertainties at every level.> > > > Isn't this logical and fair?> > > > -Regards> > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > sohamsa@ .com> > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 6:08 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Rajarshi,> > > > I too agree with what you

say, and isnt it a fact that there are equal chances of being misguided by someone who thinks is very advanced spiritually and makes one believe so? > > There is no guarantee to anything. Sometimes one has to move by one's own sense of judgement of what one has to follow - whether it comes from a jyotishi or so called spiritual guru or a medicine prescribed by a doctor. Even that (one's sense of judgement) may turn out to be not so right. > > Everything has a limitation.> > So even a common man may be bewildered going from text to text which claim one deity to be superior to the rest while others claim 'That It is Not'.... until one realises The Truth. > > If one finds and is able to follow/prescribe the real or correct thing, then one is truly blessed, so must we pray to the Almighty that we may find/be/give (as the case may be): the right jyotishi, the right guru, the right doctor, the right remedy, the right

insight.... :-) > > > > Best Regards,> > SS> > > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > >> > > Dear SS> > > > > > I quite agree with your mail. And I am not saying that prescribing a mantra by jyotish is incorrect. Of course not. > > > > > > However, the point of discussion is mainting of a balance, and not over stretching anything. The rules of mantra shastra are good and solid, but the idea is if in the process of judging the best rule for the best mantra for the best time and best direction etc ec, ones mind gets over-awed by so many parameters and loses out on the necessary discipline/ground work required for making any mantra work, what is the use of that then? The question is one of degree.> > > > > > What is the gaurantee

that the due to some reason or the other the jyotish has not made a mistake in the mantra shastra calculations and given an incorrect mantra? Mahamaya can delude anyone. I am just stating a theoritical yet very practical possibilit y. So what is a practical insurance against such a chance? Jyotish is perfect. Mantra-shastra is perfect. But jyotishis are not always perfect, like any other human being. I feel , a better insurance against such realistic possiblities is to have a humble sense of surrender to the Deity rather than raking the mind to extreme levels trying to figure out the best possiblity without really being 100 percent sure that there will not be a mistake (however slight) in the process.> > > > > > I will give a small practical example from my experience. I had been once given a mantra by a person I respect a lot. I had never even heard of the deity of that mantra before.

I religiously chanted the mantra for nearly two years, where as when I tried analysing the mantra using the rules of mantra shastra, I found it is comes as manta that should ideally cause me harm. And yet it never did anything like that. I still hang on that mantra. So obviously I must have miscalculated or missed out some sub clause or something. Instead of chanting the mantra directly, if I had known about these mantra shatra analysis techniques then and tried it with my imperfect knowledge, I may have never ventured into chanting the mantra. > > > > > > So in the end, I am not saying mantras for remedies are useless. Of course not. But rather than over emphasis on high level subtle rules which have an equal chance of being miscalculated, a change in attitude (even for an average short-term gain mantra) may be of more practical use.> > > > > > -Regards> > >

Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > > sohamsa@ .com> > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 1:50 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Rajarshi, your are right regarding theory and application of it. Yet, everyone may not be having the same spiritual insight or have done the same ground work as you say or have the same understanding of the process. But atleast there is hope that out of all those who seek fast remedies through mantras,

there would be atleast some that may get to have a veiw of that spark of the universal consciousness may be even for a brief span (span = here attention/awareness becomes more important than the time) and some, out of those few, may be instigated/inspired to make a move towards realising that Truth, while some may be those who find once again the connection they lost from previous birth - you never know...all those who come to seek the remedies may not become qualified jet pilots at one go (of course with rigorous training) - but atleast learn to drive some vehicle or the other and learn more about how to improve their driving skills if the inner> > drive> > > comes through...and if they dont, well, it is their level of spiritual growth - isn't it? may be they even end up calling the astrologer as incompetent - who is to blame?> > > > > > 2 people reading the same (spiritual) text may interpret it

differently and argue about it's meaning, while the Zen master may hit their head with the proverbial stick and tell them that "the tao that can be described in words is not the real tao". > > > > > > Does that mean that all (spiritual) text is invalid? > > > The answer is "yes" AND "no"...or may be even "Neither". > > > That is because it depends on the relativity of the observer's locus.> > > > > > I would just quote Bharat again here, as he's already said it:> > > "Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall > > > come automatically with their spiritual "growth" and

understanding. "> > > > > > Best Regards,> > > SS> > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, rajarshi nandy <rajarshi14@ ...> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear SS> > > > > > > > Correct. The idea is one of practical application and one of theoritical discussion. As you rightly mentioned easier said than done. The question is why is it easier said than done, that is because unless one is ready to follow at least some parts of the rules, disciples and as Narasimha says, the idea of humility (being a begger), most mantras wont work in teh short span inspite of following all theoritical rules. Unless you are already a "ready" canditate with all the "ground work" having already been done.> > > > > > > > I have come across people using plenty of mantras for very short purposes and yet not

achieving any results at all. Whereas there are those who can use specific mantras for specific purposes and achive such results. What is the difference? The "ground work". is the difference I feel.> > > > > > > > -Regards> > > > Rajarshi> > > > > > > > > > > > The upsurge (of consciousness) is Bhairava - Shiva Sutra> > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 4/3/09, Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...> wrote:> > > > > > > > Soul Sadhak <soulsadhak@ ...>> > > > On Remedial Measures Difference (Re: Resolving Points)> > > > sohamsa@ .com> > > > Wednesday, 4 March, 2009, 12:35 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "For those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends from it, they gain only that much."> > > > "Mantra Shastra helps both approaches."> > > > > > > > thanx Bharat.> > > > > > > > dear all,> > > > > > > > If we understands this, it will bring much peace.> > > > else repeat OMmmmmmm.... ..and 'become' the SILENCE....isnt that the end to all troubles? Easier said than done.> > > > > > > > Best regards,> > > > SS> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu@ ... > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > >

> Namaste Sundeep> > > > > >> > > > > > Please pardon my intervention. Hindus are not idol worshipers. And > > > > > > it is the Hindus who know that Lord only is. They do not use the > > > > > > word "one", since "one" presupposes "two" and "three"... and so on. > > > > > > Since Lord only is, the entirety is contained within in including > > > > > > all time, space and causation. Every object, every being is > > > > > > contained within the Lord. For an untrained mind, it is difficult to > > > > > > consume this. To focus one's attention to this principle he needs > > > > > > something tangible. So an object that can signify this principle to > > > > > > the person becomes an object of worship. Once this shape is given to >

> > > > > the object... it is never considered an Idol. It is worshipped as > > > > > > God itself. Noone goes to the temple and says " Hey Idol, ...." , > > > > > > everyone fold their hands and say "Hey Krishna or Hey Rama or Hey > > > > > > Shiva .....".> > > > > >> > > > > > The people who wrongly call hindus idol worshippers are themselves > > > > > > worshipping the idols. What is a cross? What is a the book Koran or > > > > > > the image of Mecca or the words "Allah Hu Akbar" inscribed on a > > > > > > plate? These all are Idols. Aren't they?> > > > > >> > > > > > So long is there a world and realization does not dawn upon oneself, > > > > > > one would need something to focus their mind with.

This in our > > > > > > scriptures have been suggested through various ways:> > > > > >> > > > > > 1. Shapes and Symbols> > > > > > 2. Elements> > > > > > 3. Upasanas: Observing the nature and relating it to the Truth. Like > > > > > > endless is the space and time and relating the quality of endless to > > > > > > the Truth.> > > > > > 4. Mantra Japa- Herein the sound reverberates with the certain > > > > > > element/aspect of nature. To that root is added our request. For > > > > > > those who seek the truth, the mantra japa serves as a constant > > > > > > reminder of the what the Truth is. For those how seek certain ends > > > > > > from it, they gain only that much.> > > >

> >> > > > > > Therefore Sundeep, I request you to study our culture more and you > > > > > > shall find nothing that is sane and truthful missing from it.> > > > > >> > > > > > Sri Narasimha is suggesting that we do not command the Lord and > > > > > > worship him undertaking any appealing mantra - which essentially > > > > > > means that the more we understand its meaning the idea of the Lord > > > > > > shall become clearer and clearer in our minds. This approach is for > > > > > > spiritual aspirants who are willing to "let go themselves in the > > > > > > hands of the lord". This is something that one has to realize for > > > > > > oneself and not impose on others. Furthermore, it should not be > > > > >

> called "begging". There is no difference between the Lord and our > > > > > > True Self. To call ourselves beggars is to defile us and Srimad > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita warns against such a self judgement.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Most people do not use the above approach, they want specific > > > > > > remedies for their specific problems and that too quickly. The > > > > > > Mantra Shastra helps both approaches. For the students, I think it > > > > > > is this part they should learn as Jyotishas and the above part shall > > > > > > come automatically with their spiritual "growth" and understanding.> > > > > >> > > > > > Hope this helps> > > > > >> > > > > >

Thanks and Regards> > > > > > Bharat> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 4:07 AM, vedicastrostudent <vedicastrostudent@ ... > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > Dear Narasimhaji (and it might help others to read this fully too,> > > > > > trust me you may well be satisfied),> > > > > >> > > > > > First, let me say I am not about to either agree/disagree with you. I> > > > > > am only standing back and observing/categoriz ing your approach, and> > > > > > comparing it historical events that will give

me a sense of the final> > > > > > import of your approach.> > > > > >> > > > > > If you read about Abraham, the supposed "father" of the three> > > > > > religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) that have together had the> > > > > > most following among all religions in the world (ever). As far as I> > > > > > know, he lived in a time of deities and ritual. He is supposedly the> > > > > > first to have actively sought to bring the notion of one God to the> > > > > > masses. He destroyed idols much to the dissatisfaction of lots around> > > > > > him. Apparently God revealed himself to Abraham several times.> > > > > > Abraham submitted himself completely to the will of God, always,> > > > > > without question.

It seems logical to conclude that he destroyed and> > > > > > denounced idolatry because he felt, at the very least, that focus on> > > > > > the multiplicity of deity and webs of rituals took *away* a person's> > > > > > focus from the real thing - submission to the one and only God (which> > > > > > is what Abraham was really about i.e. submission to the one and only> > > > > > God). Before jumping to any conclusions about what I am trying to say,> > > > > > please read on.> > > > > >> > > > > > Me, I'm fascinated by religious psychology, i.e. what drives people to> > > > > > believe in God and how. I *dont seek to denounce* either Abraham or> > > > > > the idolaters (Hindus would obviously come to mind here), only to> > >

> > > understand them. The way I have found to unify these two seemingly> > > > > > contradictory approaches is the following, and perhaps it will help> > > > > > you as well: God is *eventually only one* of course and "resides" deep> > > > > > within us, and projects himself (I use "project" in exactly the sense> > > > > > Michal describes) in various ways into human experience. As people get> > > > > > spiritually elevated, the projections become less necessary and they> > > > > > are able to have a more and more direct experience of God.> > > > > > Consequently, they start forgetting the role the projections> > > > > > *originally had in the beginning of their path* and consider the most> > > > > > important thing to be the complete submission to

the *growing* inner> > > > > > light of God within themselves.> > > > > >> > > > > > My feeling is that that is what happened to Abraham, and is what is> > > > > > happening to you as well. Psychologically and astrologically speaking,> > > > > > the examples you choose to illustrate your point betray your> > > > > > psychology. You have unconsciously chosen an example of a mountain,> > > > > > with the *final God experience* sitting on top. That final God> > > > > > experience is the Sun, astrologically speaking i.e. the source, the> > > > > > symbol of the growing inner light within *you*. The various paths to> > > > > > the top that you talk about represent, I think, Mercury, with its> > > > > > various forms and

distinctions (Prithvi tattwa?). As you behold the> > > > > > Sun, the king, in all his magnificence, everything else pales in> > > > > > comparison. And sure enough, you start posting that all the paths are> > > > > > unimportant :-)> > > > > >> > > > > > But see, not everyone is there yet, all the distinctions and dates and> > > > > > rituals are important, because they will unerringly lead one there, as> > > > > > they did for you. At least that's what I have gathered after listening> > > > > > to Sanjayji and all the gurus on this group..> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sundeep> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >

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