Guest guest Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Namaste friends, > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > interesting and pleasant than astrology. A few people wondered why I said like this. I will explain with a metaphor. Life is like a long movie and the material world a movie theater. Many people become overly attached with this movie. When good things happen in the movie, they are excited. When bad things happen in the movie, they are depressed. They are too deeply engrossed in the movie. They don't realize that this is " just a movie " , will end sooner or later and then a new movie will start. The goal of all spiritual sadhana is to realize that this is just a movie and not be overly attached to it. In other words, one should be able to watch it without getting excited when good things happen in the movie and without getting depressed when bad things happen in the movie. Realization that this is just a movie should become common sense and be ingrained in each action, thought and impulse. One should work towards that. That is the essense of all scriptures. Spiritual sadhana of all kinds is aimed at eventually changing one's attitude so that one views all life experiences with an equal mind. Now, it is possible to predict what happens next in the movie, based on what happened so far. Predicting the next scene in the movie is an interesting activity and the art/science behind it is interesting to study, research, learn and experiment with. But, when we say that the final goal is to realize that it is just a movie and being able to accept what happens in the next scene, with neither excitement nor depression, then what use is it to predict what happens in the next scene? From this point of view, spiritual sadhana makes one mature in handling life and attaining everlasting bliss. It enables one to watch the movie without any worries. But, there ARE people who cannot have that attitude, yet. Being able to foretell the next scene is useful to them and prepares them for the next scene. As rishis are compassionate about every being and not just enlightened ones, they taught methods that enable us to do it. So we study them and put them to use. Nevertheless, everyone will eventually have to get used to accepting the movie as is and making the realization that it is just a movie and what happens in it does not matter, as part of one's common sense, thoughts and actions. Once one does that, learning the art/science of predicting the next scene is no longer important, useful or interesting. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - Narasimha P.V.R. Rao sohamsa ; ; vedic astrology Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:13 PM Re: Jaimini on Chara Karakas --> To Visti and Narasimha Namaste Sri Shanumkha, Obviously you are well-read and had the fortune of learning from a good scholar. I am glad to meet you. Thank you for clarifying about Sri Iranganti Rangacharya's views as you understand them through your association. > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > book... > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > of eight planets. I am glad to know that his approach is similar to mine. You said " excepting Rahu becoming AK " . Later you said he has not resolved the case. Are you saying that he has not made up his mind on whether Rahu can become AK or not? *I* have. > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > becomes highest longitude planet. I dispute the notion that Rahu can only give bandhana and not moksha. > But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > to one of his disciples. Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, interesting and pleasant than astrology. After I started daily homam and intensified my meditation, I too wanted to leave astrology and spend my free time in spiritual sadhana. But my spiritual guru forced me to remain active in astrology and work on interpreting Parasara. I am just carrying out his command. > Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > in BPHS. Absolutely! When none of the reliable sources mentions this bifurcation, one is valid in questioning this hypothesis. > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > Sutra. What you described was also mentioned as Karaka kendradi dasa by Parasara. In addition, he also taught the Karaka dasa I gave. Overall, thank you very much for a very interesting email. I have only BPHS and a few modern commentaries on Jaimini in English/Sanskrit/Telugu. I do not have the works of Raghava Bhatta, Nrisimha Suri and Nilakantha. If I had access to their views on Jaimini, I might have been able to do a better job in interpreting the grey areas in Parasara's teachings. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org sohamsa , " Shanmukha " <teli_sha2002 wrote: > > Om Namah Sivaya > > Namaste Sri Visti, Sri Narasimha and others, > > I have been closely following the discussion on Chara Karakas and the > article by Narasimha. I observed in one of your (Visti¡¦s) earlier > mails, that you referred Sri Iranganti Rangacharya opines that > Jaimini Sutras are complete and nothing is missing. Since, you > referred to Rangacharya. I am interfering as I do have some > interaction with him. Hence, I want to put forth the views of Sri > Rangacharya, regarding the issue as I understood from him. But, I > want to state that I am neither a spokesperson for Sri Rangacharya, > nor a Jyotisha scholar nor a Sanskrit scholar. The following lines > are purely my understanding regarding the issue. > > 1. Though, Sri Rangacharya never indicated that any sutra is > missing from the first two adhyayas, but he always says that 3rd and > 4th adhyayas available now are merely the interpolated versions. > That¡¦s the reason why he didn¡¦t attempt to translate them, even after > being persuaded by Sri B.V.Raman. > 2. He always reiterates that to understand Jaimini Sage, Vriddha > Karikas are the authority. He claims that he always followed the > vriddha karakas and never contradicted or transgressed those slokas > in his commentary. > 3. He considers Jaimini sutras are much earlier to Parasara Hora > since the Sutra Vangmaya is much earlier to Sloka Vangmaya. He > considers Parasara Hora is a compendium of all the astrological > principles available, that is a compilation work. > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > of eight planets. > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > book. But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > to one of his disciples. > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > becomes highest longitude planet. > > As I said earlier I am not a spokesperson for him and the above > points can be taken worth of their salt. But, one thing I can > honestly say that Sri Rangacharya is fighting through out his life > for the cause of Jaimini Astrology. In his commentary, we don¡¦t find > pitri karaka after Matri Karaka. According to him, the karakas are > AK,Amk,BK,MK,PK,GK and DK only. But, I admit that Pitri Karaka was > mentioned in one of the manuscript (palm leave) I happened to see. > Again, in the manuscript referred to by Sri Vadrevu Suryanarayana > Murthy, he doesn¡¦t find Pitri Karaka. By the way, I think, he is the > first person to interpret Saturn as karaka for elder brother for the > sutra ¡§Mando Jyayan Graheshu¡¨. Hence, it can be debated > whether ¡§Tasya Pitah¡¨ ever existed. In fact this debate is there for > the ages. Hence, we have to resolve this not only with scientific > approach but also with practical examples. Sri Narasimha was right in > that direction. > > Sri Rangacharya opines that ¡§Eke¡¨ word in ¡§Mata Saha ¡K¡¨ sutra means > that Sage Jaimini does not endorse combining MK and PK. He tells that > interpreting Sutra Vangmaya is different from the case with sloka > Vangmaya. > > Somebody argued that Jaimini didn¡¦t mention the special condition of > including Rahu only when two planets occupy the same degree. Well, if > you look in at the calculation of 8th house given by Sanjay ji is > also not mentioned by Jaimini. That method is deduced from Vriddha > Karika. Hence it should be kept in mind that to understand Jaimini, > Vriddha Karikas are the authority. By the way, how many of us know > that Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri extensively used calculation of > 8th house according to vriddha karika? How many of us know there are > special ayurdasas called ¡§Jaya Bhava Pamsa, Atmano Bhava Pamsa Dasas > extensively dealt by Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri ? I request all > to read ¡§Jaimini Sutramritam¡¨ by Sri Rangacharya, since he is the > only commentator who dared to give Vriddha Karika slokas in his > commentary. Why I say Parasara is not the final authority on Jamini > Sutras is the fact that no astrological classic said to be Parasari, > never dealt the concepts like Padas, Rasi Drishti and argala. Of > course, Uttara Kalamrita and brihaspata samhita are exceptions. > Jataka Tatwa by Mahadeva Pathak is very recent scholar and he never > dealt any of Rasi dasas. Yes, BPHS can be taken as one of the vriddha > karika, since Parasara is the only rishi who could compile so > beautifully all the astrological principles available. Hence, HE can > be treated as one of the authority but not the final. Even if we look > at the verses given by Narasimha in his Chara Karaka article look > like merely inspired / interpolated verses from Vriddha Karika. This > is my humble view. The other way is also possible. > > Sorry for deviating from the issue. I write below my humble > understanding regarding chara karaka. > > Jaimini is always specific in his sutras. In fact all sutra vangmaya > is specific and cryptic as well. When he says ¡§Eke¡¨, it means that it > is not his opinion. Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > in BPHS. > > When Jaimini Speaks ¡§Saptanam AshtanamVa¡¨ > a. If he considers 8 CK then, he would never say ¡§ Saptanam¡¨ > b. He doesn¡¦t endorse the opinion of MK and PK same. So he > treats MK and PK different. Combining above two proves that only 7 CK > and MK, PK different and they are AK, AmK, BK, MK, PK, GK, and DK. > Vriddha Karika is again very specific > c. If he considers only 7 planets, he would never say Asthtanaam > Va¡¨, hence he asks us to consider 8 planets. He didn¡¦t spell out the > condition as when to consider 7 or 8 planets. Now, Vriddha Karika > comes to rescue. Sri Narasimha already gave that sloka in his earlier > mail. > d. Now, out of 7 CK, it is to be decided whether to include Pik > or PK. Since sage himself spaks that MK and PK are different, PK must > be included. > e. If you closely look at the Sutras we don¡¦t find specific > sthira Karaka for Mata and Pita. Hence, one may doubt the inclusion > of MK since no sthira karaka is mentioned. But Sage himself mentions > MK vide sutra ¡§Mata Saha Putra¡K.¡¨. Now, only Pitri Karaka inclusion > in Chara Karaka scheme is doubtful and since it is there in some > manuscripts and not in some, we must resolve it with research, > experiments and sadhana. But, we can understand Venus is Karaka for > Parents vide sutra ¡§ Patni Pitarau ¡K..¡¨. > f. Sage only states 4 sthira karakas > 1. BK ---- " ³ Mars > 2. PK ----- " ³ Jupiter > 3. GK ---- " ³ Mercury > 4. DK ----- " ³ Venus > g. We can get the karaka for Mother and Father as the stronger > of Moon and Mars, and the stronger of Sun and Venus respectively from > other adhyayas. > h. Interpreting 3rd house from Mars etc. is not new to Jaimini > system. Its well known to the commentators like Sri Raghava Bhatta > and Nrisimha Suri and they have even given the karakas for parents, > brothers etc., apart from chara karakas. > i. Now, how to include 8 planets for 7 CK scheme? If two planets > are at the same degree, then Rahu comes in. If three planets are at > the same degree, then one chara karaka will be omitted and will be > filled up by corresponding sthira karaka. > For example > 1. If each planet at different degrees " ³ No Rahu coming in. > 2. If AK and AmK at same degree " ³ No Rahu coming in, > Nasargika Bala considered > 3. If AK, AmK, BK same degree " ³ Rahu comes in and one planet omitted > > Now other than AK > 1. If two Planets " ³ one planet, No karaka > 1. If three planets " ³ two planets, one Karaka omitted > 3. If four planets " ³ three planets, two karakas > 4. If five planets " ³ 4 planets, three karakas > 5. If six planets " ³ 5 planets, 4 karakas > 6. If seven planets " ³ -do- > > The above is found in Rangacharya¡¦s Jaimini Sutramritam and he has > been following it since 30-40 years. I know the above explanation is > not clear and logical but it shows the way vriddha karikas instructed > to do. It shall be born in mind that we must move further keeping and > continually referring to vriddha karikas to understand Jaimini > Sutras. So, whatever Narasimha wrote in his article is not new and > well practiced by Jaimini scholars excepting Rahu becoming AK, and > taking PiK in place of PK in 7 CK scheme. > j. Now, comes how to use karaka lopa. Vriddha Karika shows two > ways of Ommission of Antya Karaka and Agrima Karaka. It must be > researched and applied to know the accuracy of each scheme, not just > debating on it, since it is vriddha showing the beacon of light. I > request all to understand vriddha karka slokas well. Alas, most > English Jaimini commentaries never mention these slokas. > k. Vriddha karika again mentions that Atma Karaka never gets > omitted in Antya karak lopa scheme. That¡¦s the precise reason why you > don¡¦t find sthira karaka for Atma and Amatya karaka. Sri Narasimha > considers Agrima Karaka lopa, if so then, when Ak and Amk are at the > same degree, then AK must be taken over by sthira karaka. But he > doesn¡¦t apply this to AK, where in he takes the DMS again to find the > AK. Here Vriddha karika is very specific that AK cannot be omitted. > So, if Narsimha considers AK can¡¦t be taken over, then he must > consider Antya Karaka Lopa scheme. I am giving below the relevant > Vriddha Karika sloka. > ¡§Amsa Samye Grahau Dwau Chet Jayetam Yasya Janmani > Swa Karakam Vina Lupyati Chantya Karakaha Nischayam¡¨ > > l. So, Sri Rangacharya¡¦s method of taking Naisargika strong > Graha for AK when AK and AmK are at the Same Degree seems logical and > in accordance with Vriddha Karika. > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > Sutra. > > If anyone gets the feeling that I am saying there shall not be any > independent interpretation of sutras, my answer is NO. I want to say > that whatever the interpretation, it must not contradict the vriddha > karika slokas. Now, new sort of distorting knowledge is happening. > Some learned scholars even wrote article on Lagnamsaka dasa as > phalita dasa. But, Krishna Mishra in his Jyotish Phala Ratanamaala, > mentions Lagnamsaka dasa as Ayur dasa. This is like the other scholar > writing book on Manduka dasa without understanding what Vriddha > karika says about Manduka dasa. New Commentator may contradict with > other ancient commentators like Neelakantha, Raghava Bhatta, but not > with Vriddha Karikas. They are like sritis. As it is said if you have > a doubt and Sriti and Purana differing on the issue, preference must > be given to Sriti only. Similarly if commentator contradicts with > Vriddha Karika, we must follow vriddha only. It is proven time and > again and Narasimha finds the same. Vriddha Karika method of > including Rahu when two planets are at the same degree, works well. > > I have been contemplating to write this mail, but finally I decided > to write, let whatever may happen. I hope I could put my points > straight. Thanks for reading along, and I request readers to study > vriddha karikas, not merely asking to explain every thing under the > sky with chara karakas. Well, I have not touched how to use chara > karakas for interpretation, sincerely; I don¡¦t know how to use. This > is my beginning in understanding CK scheme. > > Let the knowledge come everywhere. > Warm Regards, > Shanmukha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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