On Remedial Measures Difference (Resolving Points)

February 14, 2009

Dear Sanjay,

> Since you do not have any real definition of Gandanta, I am dropping that

I do have a definition of gandanta, which is Parasara's definition in BPHS.

Since some of you are extrapolating it based on the fire embodied in UL and

water embodied in tithis, the onus is on you to outline and justify your

definition. I got into this thread because statements were made that fasting on

particular weekdays or tithis in a chart can cause " insult to Vishnu " , " serious

doshas " and " danger to spouse " , based on these far-fetched extrapolations of

gandanta.

> Which is perfectly in line with everything I have learnt.

Well, you once taught that houses represent Sun/Shiva/truth and arudhas

represent Moon/Gouri/perception. That was meaningful. Now, you associated UL, an

arudha, with Sun and fire and 12th, a house, with Gouri and water. I question

whether the new theory on fasting is really in line with everything you have

learnt (and taught).

BTW, I specifically asked for a clarification on whether this was based on your

own thinking or from classics/parampara (see quoted mail below for the full

context). Like so many times with similar questions I asked privately and

recently publicly, you did not respond.

* * *

> Statement 1 is an arrogance that the entire Jyotisha shastra is bogus

> and has no relevance as the remedial measures prescribed by

> Parasara and others to be done on specific days are irrlevant and

> not of much consequence.

First of all, Parasara did *not* prescribe fasting on specific weekdays or

tithis based on any arudhas or houses in a chart.

For doshas in birth chart or to get relief from planetary afflictions or to get

the blessings of planets, he suggested various *homas* (fire rituals) and

described how to perform them. His section on remedial measures is full of

various homas. I am not dismissing those remedies taught by Parasara himself and

I am in fact slowly preparing manuals on them so that anybody can do them by

themselves.

Parasara did *not* specify the weekday or tithi for most of these homas (e.g.

planetary homas). Only for homas for specific birth doshas (e.g. Amavasya dosha

or Moola dosha), he fixed the tithi or nakshatra based on the dosha and the

deity. But the days are not based on any house or arudha in the chart.

Thus, the principles I am questioning are *not* from Parasara.

Second, I said what I said in a *context*. People are mentioning complicated

principles that are not found in classics or works of rishis and scaring people

that performing austerities such as fasting on certain days cause " danger to

spouse " or " serious doshas " or " insult to Vishnu " , based on horoscope. I find

these principles illogical and based on hasty thinking. There may be a little

difference between doing an austerity on different days, but my point is that it

is smaller compared to the difference between doing and not doing at all and

that doing it on a " wrong day " does not cause danger as being suggested.

Third, our shastras primarily talk about worshipping various deities on various

days, based on the energy of the *deity*. For worshipping a certain deity,

certain tithi or weekday or nakshatra is better than others. This is based on

the deity and irrespective of the person worshipping. Let me give an analogy. If

a rich man comes out with more money to give to beggars on a specific day, a

beggar is better off going and begging on that day. Schedule and mood of the

giver is more important.

Choosing the day of a remedy based on the deity is more important and the

variations based on individual horoscope are less important. I am not saying

there are no horoscopic variations. But they are smaller and, more importantly,

I question if they are actually well-understood by astrologers today to apply

*reliably*. I question over-emphasizing and over-selling unreliable principles

of questionable origin and scaring people on that basis.

* * *

> Statement 2 is an arrogance that the entire mantra shastra is useless

> and the RishiÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s were wasting time in giving so many mantras for

> the same devata, like say thousands of mantras for Vishnu or Hanuman

> when any one mantra would suffice. OR it is like saying that we can

> take paracetamol and pray that cancer is cured. I think I may have to

> write a book on Mantra Shastra to validate the teachings of the vedic

> seers.

I did not say it is " useless " . Instead, I suggest that our ability to use it is

limited and we should take our limitations into consideration.

The universe has many lokas (planes of consciousness), many beings and many

objects. There are infinite karmic interactions possible between them.

Accordingly, there are infinite possible mantras. When one is able to perfectly

control the mind and *fill it* with a mantra (i.e. no thoughts but the mantra

reverberating in the mind constantly), then one experiences the mantra. This

perfect absorption of self-awareness in the mantra then causes internal changes

by the flow of energy internally in specific ways (specific to the mantra) and

that causes corresponding external changes in the universe and corresponding

karmic interactions between various objects.

However, this variety of mantras, experiences and results is irrelevant to one

who does not have such perfect control over the mind to absorb the mind fully in

a mantra. It is relevant only to a seer whose self-awareness is quite evolved

and hence control over mind impeccable. Such seers are extremely extremely rare

today. Most people are unable to experience any mantra and mantras do not work

for them as they are supposed to.

* * *

Just repeating a combination of sounds does not guarantee anything. Some people

may think that certain results come when they repeat a mantra certain number of

times. That is an incorrect notion. A mantra may work for one person quickly and

another may spend the whole life chanting it and nothing may happen. Absorption

of the entire mind into a mantra is needed for a mantra to really work and it is

much more difficult than one may think.

* * *

A highly learned scholar in the court of a king may be able to command the king

and get whatever he wants from king. An incapable one is better off begging the

king, rather than trying to command (and failing for sure).

Similarly, most people are better off begging god for what they want rather than

trying to use the right mantra to command what they want. A beggar does not need

a huge vocabulary or great scholarship or knowledge. Feeling of humility and

helplessness, surrender, patience and persistence are what help a beggar

succeed. A beggar needs the right attitude rather than knowledge. In this age

and time, best bet for most people is to learn to be a good beggar at god's

door.

What people today need for material and spiritual progress through remedial

measures is a better attitude in begging god rather than a better choice of

tools such as mantras and other specifics such as weekday, tithi etc to command

a specific result from god.

It is worth noting that so many great spiritual teachers who came in the last

century or two did not emphasize picking the right mantra based on horoscope

etc. Instead, they emphasized having the correct attitude - surrender,

submission, devotion, patience, persistence, discipline, humility etc. *That* is

a lot more important and useful than trying to be oversmart with the choice of

mantra, day etc and impress god.

* * *

One more thing. We have many mantras given by rishis, but the guidelines from

rishis like Parasara on how to pick a mantra based on the horoscope are very

limited. Astrologers today do not operate solely based on them. They use all

kinds of other rules coming from various traditions. They are not free from

corruption and imperfection. Most scriptures associate various mantras with

various results, irrespective of horoscope. For example, irrespective of who is

the 6th lord and 8th lord and lord of A6 and A8, Rina Vimochaka Angaraka mantra

is good for debt control. And so on. Linking of horoscope is overplayed by

today's astrologers, way beyond the scope of Parasara's guidelines.

If one has a sadguru, I recommend following the word of sadguru rather than that

of an astrology theoretician.

If not, there is no foolproof way to know the right path. Pick any path (given

by an astrologer or one that you feel attracted to) instead of wasting time and

then keep working on your attitude. The latter is the key. As I said earlier,

learn to be a humble beggar at god's door. Choice of Mantra is secondary and

attitude is primary. If you succeed in being a really humble beggar, you stand a

better chance of success than great scholars.

Any prasiddha mantra (e.g. ashtakshari, panchakshari, dwadasakshari, navakshari,

vishnu sahasranaam, rudram, hare krishna maha mantra, chandipath, ganapati

atharva seersham, mrityunjaya mantra etc) can help one make progress if one

develops the right attitude. Without the right attitude, even an impeaccably

picked mantra will do nothing.

* * *

I hope this sufficiently clarifies my stand. I discuss these matters related to

spiritual sadhana more on the . Some writings are sampled

at http://www.vedicastrologer.org/homam/writings.htm.

Best regards,

Narasimha

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

om paramesthi gurave namah

Dear Narasimha,

Since you do not have any real definition of Gandanta, I am dropping that and

continue with my belief of the junction between Agni and Jala rasi as the case

of gandanta and the loka junctions. Which is perfectly in line with everything I

have learnt.

Two statements you have made contradict standard texts on Jyotish and Mantra

Shastra. Please correct me if I am not understanding you well out here -

1. Statement 1: *fasting on any day or any tithi* is good so long as the

sankalpa has been made for the devata you intend to pray to. Results maybe a bit

delayed but will be there.

2. Statement 2: *reciting any prayer* will give the desired effects for any

ailment we wish to remedy

Is this what you intended to say or did I get this wrong?

Statement 1 is an arrogance that the entire Jyotisha shastra is bogus and has

no relevance as the remedial measures prescribed by Parasara and others to be

done on specific days are irrlevant and not of much consequence. This sounds

like another astrologer I had known some time back whose statements like this

coerced me to write Vedic Remedies in Astrology so that people are not misled

but such pretexts to knowledge.

Statement 2 is an arrogance that the entire mantra shastra is useless and the

RishiÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s were wasting time in giving so many mantras for the same devata,

like say thousands of mantras for Vishnu or Hanuman when any one mantra would

suffice. OR it is like saying that we can take paracetamol and pray that cancer

is cured. I think I may have to write a book on Mantra Shastra to validate the

teachings of the vedic seers.

I think there is something wrong in the way you are saying what you want to

say. Please rethink and correct your statements for the sake of good record in

this list.

With Warm Regards

Sanjay Rath

http://srath.com http://sohamsa.com http://.org

15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi, 110060, India

-

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

sohamsa

Sunday, February 08, 2009 12:03 PM

Re: ALTERNATIVE TO UPAPADA FASTING

Namaste Sanjay and friends,

My answers are in red and prefixed with " [Narasimha] " .

<<<<<< Begin quote <<<<<<

> > >> tithi. The basic point is that Upapada is a rashi and carries energy

> > >> of Vara or day. If you fast on the day ruled by tithi of the 2nd

> > >> lord, you are bringing the jala energy to vara, and gandanta may

> > >> occur, and spouse may come into a danger. So, what is the way out.

>

> Why does a rashi carry the energy of vaara only and not that of the

tithi???? Why does rashi represent vaara or fire?

>

> [sanjay Rath:] Because Raashi were created by Surya and for doing so Surya

took 12 forms called the Dvadasa Aditya...Narasimha you ask this?? What is

happening?

>

> After all, Rudra rules over the element of fire and Gouri rules over the

element of water and one worships Gouri at the time of marriage. Moreover, Venus

(water) is the karaka for marriage. So one could even say that UL/marriage is

represented by water element and fasting on UL lord's tithi brings the element

of water (prosperity and well-being) to one's marriage (UL)? One could even say

that fasting on the weekday of UL lord should be prohibited as it brings the

fire element represented by weekday to the water of UL and causes " gandanta " !

>

> [sanjay Rath:] UL is the Maya and is associated with the Raashi Narasimha.

It is the 12L which is the creator of the UL...just as the mother Gouri creates

everything through the shakti of the graha, all the arudha are created by her

due to the lordships of the planets. So fasting on the tithi lorded by the 12th

lord will be a *more correct* answer.

>>>>>> End quote >>>>>>

[Narasimha] We always say that houses (truth) are represented by Sun (aatman)

and arudha padas (maya) by Moon (mind).

Thus, 12th house is the actual creator and UL is the apparent creator in the

field of maya. Houses (truth) should actually be associated with Sun (aatman)

and Shiva (and not Gouri), while arudha padas (perception) should actually be

associated with Moon (mind) and Gouri. After all, that is what we do in the

tripod method in dasa judgment.

Thus, it is actually more logical to say that 12th house and 12th lord imbibe

the agni tattva of Sun and UL and UL lord imbibe the jala tattva of Moon.

Is the above " *more correct* answer " based on your own thinking or is it from

a classic or from tradition?

<<<<<< Begin quote <<<<<<

> The mantra one meditates with at the end of a day's fasting is far more

effective than at other times. The conservation of energy otherwise spent on

digestion or speech will enable far more effective mantra meditation. So fast or

keep mouna and then meditate with a mantra, to maximize the effect of the

mantra.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] I do not agree with this. Correct eating is the best blessing

for good mantra practise. On days when one fasts the mind is troubled by hunger

causing the stomach to burn and churn and this disturbs mantra japa. Correct

eating (alpa aahaara) is many many times better than complete fasting.

>>>>>> End quote >>>>>>

[Narasimha] Well, if one cannot fast, then one is destined to expend some

energy on digestion after all and not focus all energy on the mantra. But the

bottomline is that shastras say that one should meditate either without or with

very little food (niraahaaro mitaahaaro). In any case, I hope we agree that

meditation sessions after heavy eating are heavily restrained in effectiveness.

<<<<<< Begin quote <<<<<<

> Seriously, however, this kind of stretching of gandanta concepts is quite

illogical.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] It is not stretching ... it is the very definition of

gandanta Ã¢â‚¬â€œ the interface between fire and water. Put a burning match in a

glass of water, the fire dies...There are other GandaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s in the chart but

they are not anta (ends). Take Chitra ganda between Kanya and Tula.

>>>>>> End quote >>>>>>

[Narasimha] Putting a burning match in a glass of water does indeed kill fire.

But the question is of contact. If I am thinking of fire in my mind while

standing in water, it does not kill the fire. There is no contact.

My point is that the examples given have no real identifiable contact between

water and fire.

One can be creative and come up with a lot of theories. For example, one can

say that Moon and Venus are jala tattva and all rasis show agni tattva (then why

are some rasis marked as agni rasis and some as water rasis etc) and hence the

sign occupied by Moon and Venus cause contact between water and fire. Then one

can say fasting on the weekdays of the dispositors of Moon and Venus causes

gandanta and serious danger.

It is not enough to show some fire and some water. See what counts as contact.

Otherwise, one will engage in illogical extrapolations.

<<<<<< Begin quote <<<<<<

> Three years back you said you are leaving jyotish....then again you told me

two years back and again recently that you are leaving jyotish. Now it is

getting very evident that *jyotish is leaving you*. The knowledge of Jyotish is

PERFECT Ã¢â‚¬â€œ individuals embody it in different levels of their

understanding and intelligence.

>>>>>> End quote >>>>>>

[Narasimha] Nothing is permanent. What is one's cannot be taken away. And one

cannot cling on to what is not one's. Some rejoice when it seems like something

comes and cry when it seems like something leaves. Some impassionately observe

as things seem to come and go and do what they see as their dharma with the

things they seem to have.

Just a factual correction though: I never said I was leaving Jyotish. For a

few years after my spiritual master entered my life, my interest in other things

went down (though I continued to do other things) and my focus on spiritual

sadhana intensified. So I said that my interest in Jyotish was very low.

However, my guru gave me a task later. He wanted me to study the teachings of

Parasara independently, meditate on them and share my interpretations with the

world. He said I was very passionate in my Jyotish activities earlier, and he

wanted me to do the same now but dispassionately and without an attachment. He

felt that I still have a contribution to make to Jyotish and wants me to do it

as an unattached karma. His word is everything for me.

What I told you recently is not that I was leaving Jyotish but what I said

above.

However, if your judgment is correct and if Jyotish is indeed " leaving " me, I

am sure my spiritual guru will realize it sooner or later and change his command

to me.

<<<<<< Begin quote <<<<<<

> I can categorically declare one thing with utmost confidence. You pick any

weekday or tithi and take a vow to fast or do mouna vrata (remain silent) on

that weekday or tithi and meditate with a particular mantra (any) at the end of

the day. You can take a vow to keep that practice for a certain duration of time

(say, a few months or years) for a specific purpose. Take a vow and keep the

vrata for the duration. If brahmacharya can be kept for the duration of the

vrata, there is nothing like it!

>

> [sanjay Rath:] This is a fine statement but then you seem to be saying that

the Puranas and other teachings of the seers is of not much relevance. Of course

you are right as it will be spiritually beneficial. For example, a person

wishing to marry should not fast on UL days and should choose any day (all days

are the same) or any tithi (all tithi are the same) and start fasting and do a

mantra (any mantra!!) and then in a few days, or (maybe) a few months (or maybe)

a few years ... or maybe (what you did not say), a few lifetimes, the marriage

will happen! I cannot say you are wrong, so I agree that what you say is right.

>>>>>> End quote >>>>>>

[Narasimha] This is a gross exaggeration.

Is all that is being taught and practiced now strictly from " Puranas and other

teachings of the seers " ?

I did not say all days and tithis are the same. Of course, there is some

difference. But, it is not as big as being made here.

To make khoa, whether one uses cow milk or buffalo milk or milk of a brown cow

or a black cow or a Jersey cow or another cow does make some difference. But it

is secondary. To say that " danger " and " serious doshas " (see the quoted mails

for such claims) can be caused by a wrong choice is wrong. To say that a wrong

choice means khoa will take 100 years to make is also a gross exaggeration.

The main thing is that you need milk and sugar. If one is confused by endless

claims of khoa making consultants and ends up not making khoa at all, that will

be sad. In such a case, one can simply pick some milk or the other, take sugar

and start cooking khoa. It will take an extra half hour, but the job will be

done.

I request Jyotishis to behave responsibly and humbly and not engage in

scare-mongering and say that a speicifc austerity (fasting on a specific weekday

or tithi in a chart) can cause " danger " and " serious doshas " . No wonder some

spiritual teachers look down upon Jyotish and dismiss it. Such unbalanced

attitude and self-importance from us does not help our cause!

Yes, Jyotish is helpful, but let us not oversell it or overplay the

importance...

<<<<<< Begin quote <<<<<<

> Gem stones may harm when used incorrectly. But, austerities like prayers,

fasting, mouna vrata and brahmacharya will NEVER do you any harm. If your body

can take fasting, you can do it on any weekday or tithi without too many

calculations.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] Brahmacharya is good for someone planning to have a baby or

one who cannot conceive and this is kept for some period before the appointed

date of nisheka. Brahmacharya is good for marriage?! I think you are mistaking

abstinence from physical union as Brahmacharya. Oh no its so different.

>>>>>> End quote >>>>>>

[Narasimha] Of course, brahmacharya is much more, but also very difficult for

most. Even physical celibacy is a good enough austerity. Physical celibacy over

an extended period of time increases the efficacy of other austerities such as

fasting, mouna vrata, meditation and homam.

Best regards,

Narasimha

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

sohamsa , " Sanjay Rath " <sjrath wrote:

>

> om paramesthi gurave namah

>

> Dear Narasimha

>

> Just added a few thoughts and questions since we are on the topic of

spirituality, which is not my forte. So I am always seeking to learn.

>

> With Warm Regards

>

> Sanjay Rath

>

> http://srath.com http://sohamsa.com http://.org

>

> 15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi, 110060, India

>

> sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of

Narasimha PVR Rao

> 06 February 2009 00:48

> sohamsa

> Cc:

> Re: ALTERNATIVE TO UPAPADA FASTING

>

> Namaste friends,

>

> I would like to express my reservations on a couple of issues. It is funny

that I should be typing this email on an Ekadashi day, when many Vaishnavas fast

irrespective of their horoscopes.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] I write on dvadasi when so many vasihnava also fast and keep

great austerities. J Any difference?

>

> > >> Here is my point and view about the question raised. 2nd bhava is

> > >> the bhava of Vishnu, sustainer, and if we fast on the day of UL in

> > >> 2nd house, we bring insult to Vishnu who provides the food for us.

>

> My dear Zoran, please allow me to express my disagreement.

>

> Austerities can never be seen as an insult to Vishnu. Self-deprivation of

2nd house matters such as food (fasting) or speech (mouna vrata - vow of

silence) are austerities. Giving up food or speech is not an insult to Vishnu

just as giving up sex (i.e. brahmacharya) is not an insult to Sukracharya

(Venus).

>

> [sanjay Rath:] I though Brahma was very angry that his sons decided not to

have progeny and stayed celibate. So He created others. Why was Brahma angry

when his sons remained celibate? Why should Sukracharya be angry if someone is

celibate? How is it an insult or not an insult to Sukracharya? You are taking

planet signification of Venus for 7H ...and linking this to creation

process...which is wrong Narasimha. Brahma is seen from lords of dusthana 6, 8

and 12 from lagna or 7th which is....you know this.There is nothing wrong with

the 7th house as it is necessary for procreation. It is only the link of this

with the Brahma graha that causes it to become a serious shad-ripu. Married

people are as eligible for moksha as unmarried ones and bachelors. It depends on

the following of dharma and ashrama.

>

> Various gods bestow various things on us, some at the gross physical level

and some at the subtle spiritual level. As we overcome our dependendency on

gross things, we make progress at the subtle level.

>

> If one eats food, a good amount of internal fire (and subtle internal energy

associated with it) is used for digesting it and for generating physical energy

from it. If one fasts, that subtle energy is unused and available for other

things. This is a tremendous benefit. As a result, one can better digest mantras

and spiritual food available all around one.

>

> The mantra one meditates with at the end of a day's fasting is far more

effective than at other times. The conservation of energy otherwise spent on

digestion or speech will enable far more effective mantra meditation. So fast or

keep mouna and then meditate with a mantra, to maximize the effect of the

mantra.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] I do not agree with this. Correct eating is the best blessing

for good mantra practise. On days when one fasts the mind is troubled by hunger

causing the stomach to burn and churn and this disturbs mantra japa. Correct

eating (alpa aahaara) is many many times better than complete fasting.

>

> > >> However, to be honest, I have not heard this about 2nd lord and

> > >> tithi. The basic point is that Upapada is a rashi and carries energy

> > >> of Vara or day. If you fast on the day ruled by tithi of the 2nd

> > >> lord, you are bringing the jala energy to vara, and gandanta may

> > >> occur, and spouse may come into a danger. So, what is the way out.

>

> Why does a rashi carry the energy of vaara only and not that of the

tithi???? Why does rashi represent vaara or fire?

>

> [sanjay Rath:] Because Raashi were created by Surya and for doing so Surya

took 12 forms called the Dvadasa Aditya...Narasimha you ask this?? What is

happening?

>

> After all, Rudra rules over the element of fire and Gouri rules over the

element of water and one worships Gouri at the time of marriage. Moreover, Venus

(water) is the karaka for marriage. So one could even say that UL/marriage is

represented by water element and fasting on UL lord's tithi brings the element

of water (prosperity and well-being) to one's marriage (UL)? One could even say

that fasting on the weekday of UL lord should be prohibited as it brings the

fire element represented by weekday to the water of UL and causes " gandanta " !

>

> [sanjay Rath:] UL is the Maya and is associated with the Raashi Narasimha.

It is the 12L which is the creator of the UL...just as the mother Gouri creates

everything through the shakti of the graha, all the arudha are created by her

due to the lordships of the planets. So fasting on the tithi lorded by the 12th

lord will be a *more correct* answer.

>

> Seriously, however, this kind of stretching of gandanta concepts is quite

illogical.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] It is not stretching ... it is the very definition of

gandanta Ã¢â‚¬â€œ the interface between fire and water. Put a burning match in a

glass of water, the fire dies...There are other GandaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s in the chart but

they are not anta (ends). Take Chitra ganda between Kanya and Tula.

>

> Now one more thing: Marriage is a yoga between two souls and why not suggest

fasting on the yoga day of the UL lord?

>

> [sanjay Rath:] What! What a brilliant suggestion...why donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t you

start it?

>

> * * *

>

> > Now suppose instead of 11th house if Mercury goes to 12th house or 4

> > house then you cannot choose Dwadashi or Chaturthi for the same

> > because these thithis are ruled by Mercury only and fasting on these

> > tithis will create serious doshas.

>

> Picking tithi based on house (12th house - Dwadashi, 4th house - Chaturthi)

is illogical as there are 12 houses only and more tithis.

> I have realized one thing over the years - If something is not structurally

sound, it is most likely false knowledge.

>

> [sanjay Rath:] J No comments