[Ind. & West. Astrology] Fw: Calender reform

April 28, 2009

Prashant Pandey <praspandey

[ind. & West. Astrology] Re: Fw: Calender reform

Indian_Astrology_Group_Daily_Digest

Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 8:04 PM

Dear Respected Shri Goelji,

Namastay!

< Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and other

equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based calender and

suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean longitude

of star citra(spica 16) was

180 deg 3sec. >

Sir when somebody is talking of Tropical Calendar than could you please let me

know how it would be different if some body will take VE point of 1285 AD

instead of 285 AD. Oh i can understand your point, you wanted to push

citrapakshiya Lahiri (which is based on 285AD) ayanamsa anyhow (as you do great

regards of Lahiri only not of Fagan, Raman etc etc....,,Sir for your kind

information the ayanamsa which we are not using as we think it can't be correct

anyhow , it is much more nearer to ayanamsa calculated by SS,, it is RAMAN

ayanamsa)

< This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious requirements of

any group or sect in India. >

Sir, do you know about Aryasamaj. Please correct your this statement as there is

no truth (means please remove Ã¢â‚¬ËœANYÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ word)

< I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat

Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical data

madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. >

Sir, if we will adopt any calendar then that calendar itself uses data from

Positional Astronomical Centre.

< No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an 'INDIAN

PANCHANG'. >

Its my pleasure that you lastly got book from your library that Tropical was

also base calendar (Infact Vedic Calendar), sir for your kind information 70%

ppl were against LAHIRIÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s sidereal proposition for our calendar(this fact

will also in any of the book in your library)

< All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical

co-ordinates.

As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also available.

Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. >

Sir we were talking of Hindu Calendar not of options in our software by which we

make Kundali and do Jyotishgiri (Panditai).

< A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we are now

using most modern

data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now follow

geocentric

coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. >

Thanks for wonderful information as we werev not aware of it.

< The real break through will come when we will able to understand the effect of

Helio- centric co-ordinates. >

Sir we are talking of Calendar of our Hindu Dharma so we donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t need any

breakthrough in it. If we get any breakthrough than we would not be follower of

Hindu Dharma as our calendar is based on Geo- centric coordinates. If we will

use those coordinates than please let me know how you will get to know about the

VE point. Sir You are befooling me in day time, it is not good (aap to humko din

main hi oolloo banaye de rahain hai,, aisaa kaisay chaleyga bhai).BTW your frnd

K N Rao is even much more learned than you are but he always remains busy

Ã¢â‚¬ËœBEHINDÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ his Ã¢â‚¬ËœJOURNAL OF ASTROLOGYÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ (Premiere

astrological site in the world according to him) but i know he would be reading

mails by his any of fake id.

Respected Shri Goelji you had done so much cross postings on my mail so i am

repaying it with interest.

Thanks you Sir.

Regs,

Prashant Pandey

Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, Gopal Goel

<gkgoel1937@ ...> wrote:

>

> ?

>

> Dear Friend,

> Calender committee headed by renowned?scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and other

> equally well known members , suggested to?commence a tropical based calender

and

> suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of?285 A.D. At that time ,? mean

longitude of star citra(spica 16)?was

> 180 deg 3sec.

> This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious requirements? of

any group or sect in India.

> Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a

arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose

> as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at a mean

rate of 50 " .3 per year.

> Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed.

> I am therefore of the?opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat

Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical data

madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre.

> No body in confusion , and all?types of calenders are mentioned in an?'INDIAN

PANCHANG'.

> One can choose the data and calender ?according to his requirement.

> All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical

co-ordinates.

> As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these?options are also available.

> Then I am?unable to understand?, what reform we are talking about.

> Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free to do so.

>

> A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we are now

using most modern

> data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now

follow?geocentric

> coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic.

> The real break through will come when we will able to understand the effect of

Helio- centric

> co-ordinates.

> Regards,

> ?G.K.GOEL

> Ph: 09350311433

> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR

> NEW DELHI-110 076

> INDIA

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..>

> Gopal Goel <gkgoel1937@ ...>

> Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM

> Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi

>

> Dear Goelji,

> I?hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and tropical

concepts in?Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are certain rules of the

adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is bsically to give seasons to lunar

months that adhimas are celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the

lunar seasons.If this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas

is violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes it

necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to time,to

keep alive the purpose of adhimas.?This was also done by Barahamihir etc. in the

past.I hope?I have given the reason for this merging of tropical and sidereal

concepts.The main reason is that the lunar months by which festivals are

celebrated are both sidereal and? tropical at the same time.Please reply if this

is OK or not? thanking you ,I remain,

> sincerely yours,

> Hari Malla

>

> ----- Forwarded Message ----

> " harimalla@. .. " <harimalla@. ..>

> HinduCalendar

> Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM

> [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi

Dear Prashanta Pandeyji,

> I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon this point

hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform proposal.plese check

the version of vedanga jyotish; it says,

> When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and the sukla

pakshya of tapa start together..

> You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa is a lunar

tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month, with the full

moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus the lunar month defined

here is both sidereal and tropical at the same time.

> This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal and

tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the same time. That

is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still there but niryan

sankranti is to be brought near the tropical sankranti for coordination of the

two.You also know that our festivals are celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to

understand the behaviour of our tithi and its month to solve our problem of

calender reform. Thus there is no escape but to compromise both tropical and

sideral.

> This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarreling with each

other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated by Shivaji.Shivaji

also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not brahma.This means we have to

celebrate our festivals by nirayan sakranti and not by sayan sankranti.But they

must be witin the range of the same full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This

coordiantion you have called as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our

practice in the past.thank you,

> Sincerely yours,

> Hari Malla

>

> HinduCalendar, " Prashant Pandey " <praspandey@ ....>

wrote:

> >

> > Dear Hari Mallaji,

> >

> > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect your

efforts.

> >

> > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar.

> >

> > Regs,

> > Prashant Pandey

> >

> > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kaul saheb,

> > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka and it says

the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus these two refer to the

same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and maagha used for the name of the

month.I understand tapa as old lunar month denoting season, here tapa is used

for pakshya andthus it can never be soalr month.maagha also can never be solar

because the full moon lis linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have

full moons.Thus both tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar

seasonal month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month.

Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and the other as

lunar.

> > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Since only the

lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the lunar uttarayn date is

also indicated, when it is said that at the same time? magha month and

tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada) occurs.

> > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar vasanta.Those days

since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or solar.That was the

only type of month althoough the year was always solar marked by teh solstice

only.Solar year and lunar months are the natural things in nature being true

natural cycles.?That is, in my view, why they had the adhimas system right from

the beginning of the vedic culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar

year.Solar months were conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to

approximate the lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the

beginning.

> > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they always had

adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95 year cycles to

control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never think of having islamic

type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar ayans and lunar years.Moslems do

not have lunar seasons and ayans.?

> > > More in my next mail. thanking you,

> > > Sincerelyyours,

> > > Hari Malla

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>

> > > hinducalendar

> > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM

> > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi

> > >

> > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@>

wrote:

> > >

> > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar!

> > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that even

shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for solar monthsa

and only guessed there may have been solar months, with the same names as the

lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same names for two different things. >

> > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra, which

states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it is Uttarayana,

Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit has translated Tapah as

season, but that would mean that there would be twelve seasons instead of six

seasons in a year. If Tapah is also taken as the name of the lunar month instead

of the solar month, then Magha will have to be taken as a solar month, since

Punarukti in the same mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos.That means that

Tapah is the solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some

muladhara-walas would like us to believe!

> > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithi etc. for

January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh programs, u will find that

as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really conjunct Dhanishtha star, it

was also away by 270 degrees from the mean equator and equinox of that date!

That means it was really Utarayana as well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that

date!Similarly, there is a mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha

which states that from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by

....prasthas. That certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but

Uttarayana, since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as

compared to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year.

> > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating " madhuschai madhavashchai

vasantikav ritu.. " etc. U will find a lot of material in 1999b.doc regarding the

Vedic months being aligned to seasons.

> > >

> > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are

available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the

month.>

> > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not an exact

astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per that work is 366

days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The mothodology of calculating

tithi etc. in that work is meant for calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and

not the true ones! The ending moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that

work are thus not accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future

guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was seasonal,

months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months were pegged to the

same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava etc. and take both Madhu,

Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar synodic months, we will be left

with something like an Islamic calendar!

> > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! They have to

be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the Udagayana, the month of

Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There is every possibility that the

ancient astronomers of India were not that adept in calculating the timings of

exact phenomena of Uttarayana and Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat!

They could be plus/minus one day or may be even more from the actual timings of

such phenomena!

> > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for yogis to

determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see 1999b..doc,

rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day of Uttarayana the sun is

" stationary " for a nano-second before starting coming down from the maximum

Southern declination! Same is the case with other ayana and sampat! The exact

moments of those phenomena are for nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the

exact timings of those phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of

data from NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth

century BCE, that was a really difficult job!

> > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of such works

and streamline our calendar in accordance with that spirit!

> > >

> > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by

vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the solistices only,

meaning the solar months were not there to control the lunar months..>

> > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be an adhi or

kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to something and that

something is solar months! There can be a thirteenth synodic lunar month as

adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick of regular twelve months in that

very year! And that yardstick is twelve solar months of a seasonal year!

Besides, it is not necessary that an adhimasa will fall always on the day of

Uttarayana! That just is next to impossible!

> > >

> > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada and the

sun being at the beginning of dhanistha>

> > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with Uttarayana. And as

already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a particular year when

the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha. These days it is also a

similar situation more or less---real Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first

New Moon after Uttarayana, which is also known as the month of Tapah. However,

because of precession, Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in

an entirely different nakshatra.

> > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the

fact that this point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that

it was nirayan too.>

> > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by jyotishis?

How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a seasonal phenomenon that

has nothing to do with precession, leave alone the so called ayanamsha?

> > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush purnima

only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis as you say>

> > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla paksha starts

more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla paksha since these

days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri

Magha! But then how does that justify our celebrating all the festivals on wrong

days?

> > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.>

> > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, the words

like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not find them in any of

the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talking about? Pl.. do read my

posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of proofs that nirayana is really

niradhar and so is sayana! But since the solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the

Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkha etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the

only ones that are the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell,

the more u try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will

defeat your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of nirayana

versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same " 15 degrees forward and fifteen

degrees backward " theory again and again!

> > > With regards,A K Kaul

> > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra from my

memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some " typo " in the exact references!

> > > AKK

> > >

> > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote:>> Dear

Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that even

shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for solar monthsa

and only guessed there may have been solar months, with the same names as the

lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same names for two different things.

The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are

available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the

month..> WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by

vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the solistices only,

meaning the solar months were not there to control the lunar months.It is also

said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada and the sun being at the

beginning of dhanistha.This itself shows the control was done by winter

solstice,uttaryan. the fact that

this

> > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it was

nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush

purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis as you

say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.Also when the

months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since they were tied to nakshyatras, how

can you say they were not nirayan?.Is tying to nakshyatras not making it

nirayan.Off course, th e lunar tithis could be both nirayan and sayan

simultaneously, for over a thousand years as I have already explained in my

previous mails.> Thanking you,I remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > >

____________ _________ _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > To:

HinduCalendar> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM>

[HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,>

Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name

them

> > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely nothing to do

with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand, everything to do with the

two equinoxes and solstices! That means that Vedic solar months are directly

related to seasons!> On the other hand, it is the Vedic lunar synodic months

that are dependent on solar months. As and when there are more than one New Moon

between two solar ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is

no New moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink the

lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following the Hejira

i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are related to seasonal

solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are equally an Islamic calendar

since those months are not related to seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar

months!> > Now coming to the nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are

neither nirayana

nor

> > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis! In

fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis on the basis of the

most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! Those

jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth and they named that myth as

sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the

Rashichakra itself is an imaginary belt! Its components can never be real since

if the sum total of the parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also

imaginary! That obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even

scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha, Vrihsa etc.

Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to seasons! (Pl. see npj3.doc,

BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic lore does not talk of any so

called nirayana curse!> " Vedic astrologers " themselves are running after

imaginary ayanamshas! There is no

> > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, that has

talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to what Ayanamsha

the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s Yavana Jatakam through

Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to

Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology

has talked about any ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an

imaginary will of the wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for

reforming the Hindu calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@

. com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> >

namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authentic nirayan

sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent the sayan

sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..If it has no right

then it is not authorised.how does the

> authority

> > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moon zone

embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has the authentic

right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present makar sankanti had the

authentic right to represent the sayan sankranti till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til

then the connected full moon the Poush Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti

every third year during its fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti

for uttaryan during that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had

the authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the sayan

uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We> do> > magh

snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it was wrong to do so.Only

the dead habit was carried over from the authentic days to the present, when

that authentication is no more.This may be called as the inadvertant use of the

custome. At present the

> > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Because the

present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving the authentic

representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, being situated at the

middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to shift the name of Poush

fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of makar sankranti to the present

Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the name is to be done during calender reform

process in the sayan fashion, to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB

Dixit.Then all problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new

positon for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the

epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are. The

authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored by the new

epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the sayan sankranti is

also restored.How do we get the

> power

> > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan system,

which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go on coordinating

the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis every 2150 years, and

authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti, which is the present practice.

> > From the story which was narrated, this authority is given to Vishnu (or the

nirayan sakranti) by Shiva( fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not

get that right.Brahma is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan

sankranti gets the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get

worshipped, but the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present

practice too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> >

Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari

Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Hari Malla

<harimalla@ ...>> > To:

> > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:11:24

PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Dear Kaul

saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the point.Please let me express my

viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You will agree that when the two sankrantis

are at the same point as in the beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or

nirayan.They have the same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if

both the sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother

wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana and the

nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the same point as in the

beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and nirayan meeting at the same

solar date occurs only may be one year (or for a few years they are not

distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan value for tithi is effective not only

one or a few years, but is

> valid

> > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both sides it is

valid even for 2000years.This is very important to understand.Most people do>

not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus my claim is that during the vedanga

jyotish period it was not sayan as many people are prone to think it was both

sayan and nirayan at the same time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same

time even during the rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is

this possible?> > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a

special meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle

point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan sankranit

is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to two or three

nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of the two or three

nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To understand what I am trying

to say,one should get the habit of

knowing

> > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees apart.for

example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the mid point of

chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand the coordinated system

of calender reform.It is necessary to know about the concept of integrated

sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have made drawing of the 12

sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon

zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakh full moon zone etc etc.upto 12

sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long as the sayan sakranti is within one full

moon zone then the tropical and the sidereal sankrantis being within the same

fullmoon have the dual meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same

time.may e I stop here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> >

Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________

_________ __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To:

> > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 6:52:13

PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri

Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town and will be back in Delhi

on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the backlog from my mobile phone

internet, lest people consider me a spent force!> > However, the more I read

your mails, the more amused I am! > > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or

nirayana only after u can quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha

etc. Rashis! There are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or

even Atharva Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc.

rashis are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some " Vedic

astrologers " call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right! But

when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that Panchama Veda,

they start saying blah, blah,

blah!

> > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from 1999b.doc and

also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called sayana!> > Personally, I

have yet to find any mention of any so called nirayana Rashichakra in any of the

Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u have come across such references, pl. do

enlighten me!> > With regards,> > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar@

. com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant

Pandeyji,> > > <But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology

gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion

to your dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the

importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It is said

once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who was the greater

between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousand divya varsha.Then

suddenly there appeard a flame

of

> > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third thing

appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find where its

top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootor bottom and went

downwards.Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not find the bottom.Then Brhama

appeared saying he found the top and brought with him witnesses one of which was

the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appeared efore them and said,Brahama told al lie

saying he found the top without findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but

because Vishnu admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is

the reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows the

astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north star.Vishnu is

the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is high in the sky above the

north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down we see the earth, which is also

known as the cow,

> > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards the sky,the

pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truth is that the

lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centre is the actual top,

which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the sayan sankranti is related to

the pole star or its postion. The nirayan sankranti is related to the sun and

the solar sankranti.This is why we give importance to the nirayan sankranit and

not to the sayan sankranti for religious purpose and also in astrology, although

we take the sayan positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies

etc.> > > I hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > >

Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________

_________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey <praspandey@ ...>> > > To:

HinduCalendar> > > Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> >

> Subject:

> [HinduCalendar]

> > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I recently heard

that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the

celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me.>> > > > > > yeahoooo> >

> > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirji this is the reality of our

HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We had tropical calendar in past, this our

Dharma Grantha says.That is our ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > >

Sir for your kind information south indian's are best in astrology and about

knowing the ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that

South Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar

because they are the best, and they have courage..> > > > > > All naadi

astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull research, no

doubt, i should say they are best in the world in astrology.> > > > > > We can

abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his

> > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said same thing

and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the Vedic Calendar.Good

News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of Nirayan (Sidereal) sytem(also

of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a

side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).> > > > > >

Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now i am happy and can sleep well.> > > >

> > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > > > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_

Digest@grou ps.com, Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > >

Dear Sunil Nairji,> > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated

unnecessarily without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am

not in favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and

presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to do

this?is because sayan is trying to

> > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30

temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their

festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to increase and

increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert wilkinson of the WAves

forum, if it is true or not.Also know that Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and

nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I am in no mood to continue with this

subject here either. Thanking you,?I say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > >

> Hari Malla.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________

_________ __> > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > To:

vedic astrology> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49

PM> > > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com, " sunil nair " > > > > <astro_tellerkerala

>

> > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > > > > >

malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or may b> > > > malla

ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and conversion are> > > > always

welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem wont end there> > > > > > > > First of

all he shud decide/agree what is Hindu astrological> > > > -astronomical concept

and he shud discard his support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising

of their contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving

vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the changes in

vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > > jyothishchakra ( hindu

/baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> > > > is based on nakshtra and

fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba> > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla

ji thinks it is varahamihira strted it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer

parasara hora

,chapter 3

> > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadi namaka

rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the path for grahas

and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a jyothichakra .And it has to

b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide

every thing and> > > > ownerships /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical

points like ucha> > > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on

a fixed rasi> > > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is

moving and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha

position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which has

diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b correct

apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording his concept or

supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that the road and vehicles

both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving

back

> and

> > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is travelling we hav

to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi by road ,still the

question of timing such purticular event in> > > > advance how it is possible

when both r moving ??why we need to> > > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > >

> > so i hope malla ji may revise his views .> > > > > > > > also according to

vedic concept the vishnu nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of

universe and here the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and

jyeshta ( eldest one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all

nakshtra concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras as

kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the strting point

,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b a strting point

when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > the basis of rai chakra (

rahu -sikhi chakra )>

>

> > >

> > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm kaulian

argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of reconciling both

arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice .either discard his arguemnts

or go ahed> > > > without any use except name calling and a chance to call

astrologers as> > > > frauds in the name of a impractical calender ,like wat he

was doing for> > > > almost quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt

he abused ancient rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas

..Also haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate crashing

technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > > > > > >

> Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@

. com, " Sreenadh " > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari

Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one

thing which> > > > > most of

us

> > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > > >

Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> > > > >

devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> > > > roadside>

> > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and astrology alone. If> >

> > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of Vedic calender reform even> > > >

for> > > > > at least 3 months or so he would have prepared the the skeleton

frame> > > > > work of the same, and also might have written good descriptive

article> > > > > about its components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc.

He is> > > > yet> > > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable

individual who may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not

only prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO

DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > > > > //

I have requested him ....

Hopefully

> he

> > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk and

negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil Nair ji,

Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a respect for this man,

which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due course during our repeated interactions

with that foul> > > > > mouth, without constructive attitude and respect for the

contributions> > > > > of our ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you

all the best in> > > > > your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term

with somethng which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with

him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come along with. Or

if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But the point is the> >

> > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge and individuals differ and> >

> > > the group is just a meeting place. The true contributions are always> > >

> > done by

> > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > > > >

need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could be> > > > >

true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or outside.> > > > >

//After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Have your ever tried it

(especially related astrological research)?> > > > > And what was the result?

What are the lessons you learned from that> > > > > experience? We all would be

eager to know. If you have ever tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be

able to answer those questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same

- then your advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in

support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > to

astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > > > > >

> > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere at the same> > > >

time> > > > > knowledgeable

> individuals.

> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > --- In

ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > > harimalla@

wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > > Thank you for the frank

reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us lack.This is

devotion to his purpose of calender reform.> > > > > After all we must divide

our work.If he comes to term with somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable

why not go along with him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which

harmonises all, which keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also

correct the times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of

our religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is based and

has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not try to get rid of

the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan system in a coordinated

fashion with the sayan system.> > > >

>

> >

> > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for some> > > >

> time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree overnight.But> > > >

I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.thank you...> > > >

> > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End

forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

April 28, 2009

Chitra-pakshiya ayanamsha beginning from a zero date on 22 March 285 AD is

rubbish, because it is based on a modern myth invented by cronies of secular

politicians and has no foundation in Indian tradition. Starting point of Ashvini

is the reference point for all calculations in Indian system, unless stated

otherwise in a handful of exceptional cases like Vimshottari or Koormachakra in

which Krittika used to be the starting point. But Chitra never happened to be

the statrting reference point for measuring zodiac.Lahiri could not find any

noteworthy star at the sidereal FPA in 285 AD and therefore searched for other

alternatives. Fundamental weakness with Lahiri syatem is that he followed the

modern tropical system and merely transformed it into sidereal syatem based upon

his invented ayanamsha which he confused with precession. Traditional ayanamsha

was not based on precession but on trepidation of bhachakra (orbit of

nakshatras). Lahiri changed the

basic definition of ayanamsha, to suit the tastes of followers of Colebrooke

and Burgess.

Another wrong myth is a misconception that Indian system is geocentric. All

Indian systems were and are geotopical. Relative planetary positions will alter

if we revert to geocentric or barycentric or heliocentric systems.

The heliocentric breakthrough will destroy whatever remains of Vedic astrology.

These breakthroughs in siddhantic field has resulted in mismatch between

predicted results and actual events, and is calling for breakthroughs in basic

rules of phalita too. Instead, these " revolutionaries " should try the old

siddhanta, which works wonderfully with old phalita.

-VJ

________________________________

Astrolearner Brazil <astrolearner_brazil

vedic astrology

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:41:03 AM

[vedic astrology] Re: [ind. & West. Astrology] Re: Fw: Calender reform

Prashant Pandey <praspandey (AT) (DOT) co.in>

[ind.. & West. Astrology] Re: Fw: Calender reform

Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com