fwd Rashi in Vedic literature, the Relevant Chronology and the Sidereal

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Shri Harimalla,

 

Please stop your nonsensical talk.  You don,t know the Shastras and waste

everybody's time. Go and teach Kaul first.

 

You have mentioned Bhagavatam, Dharmasindhu and Kalamadhav without giving any

reference. None of these has said that Uttarayana will, for ever,  occur when

the Sun comes to the Makar Rashi  Since the 3rd century CE the Uttarayana does

not occur in  the Makar rashi. due to precession.

 

Vedas have mentioned about the animal forms in the sky (Satapatha Brahmana

10.2.1). Mesh (Ram) is the symbol of the Mesh Rashi, Vrshabh (Bull) has become

the symbol of the Vrshabh Rashi. We need not think that these have come from the

west.

 

Further you do not know that  there are 27 groups of stars in the ecliptic and

that each group of star is named after the main star called Yoga Tara. For

example, the Krittika nakshatra is a group of 6 stars. This is the astronomical

fact. In Astrology these 27 Nakshatras are divided into 12 Rashis or Asterisms

or Lunar mansions.

 

There is no need of trying to educate me with your fake knowledge. However, in

future if any or all of the  the hundreds of the members of all the astrology

groups request you to teach them, then of course you can start your teaching

program. In that case please address your mail to them and not to me. Is that

clear?  BTW, why don't you  educate your idol Kaul and his cronies first.

 

S.K.Bhattacharjya

 

--- On Sat, 6/20/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

 

 

harimalla <harimalla

Re: Rashi in Vedic literature, the Relevant Chronology

and the Sidereal

 

Saturday, June 20, 2009, 11:10 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjyaji,

No problem if you would like to avoid discussiong about calendar reform.But

since I have not been able to impart certain technical knowledge to you, I shall

repeat here so that if you can please try to grasp,since you have failed to do,

so far, inspite of my repetetions.

I quote the definition given by The world Book Encyclopaedia of Constellations.

It runs as follows, " Astronomer s have divided the sky into 88 constellations.

...the ancient people named these groups of stars after animals and mythological

characters.For example, the contellations Leo was named after lion, Pisces after

two fish,and Taurus after a bull " .Do you understand that the scientists

recognise each rashi as one constellations. The 27 constellations of which you

have mentioned, are not the scientist's categorisaion but of the eastern daily

lunar constellations, we call as nakshyatras. The scientist are not used to

that.

Please do not misquote me and say " also that instead of 12 constellations 88

constellations should be considered in astrology and that it is in the interest

of Dharma, even though you yourself do not believe in Phalita Jyotisha. You

don't even know that the ecliptic has 27 constellations and not 12. I made you

admit that nothing like consideration of 88 constellations is mentioned in the

ancient texts and that these are your own wild ideas. "

Plese listen carefully what I have said and do not misquote me for what I have

not said.I have never said 88 constellations should be considered in astrology.I

have said only 12 constellations are used in astrology out of total of 88,

existing in the sky.I have also said,since only a few constellations (only

12)are taken out of total of 88 as known to be in the sky, it proves that the

stars do not effect us directly.I have found you incapable to understand the

meaning of this sentence. Is my expression in English so weak that you are not

able to understand its logic? I hope that you do not believe some stars effect

us and others do not.Do you think only 12 groups of stars effect us and the

remaining 76 groups categorised by science are incapable to effect us? My

understanding is that if 12 groups effects us, then the other 76 groups should

also have effected us.What do you think? Does this not show that actually none

of the stars effect us?

Another point you have not understood although universally accepted is as

follows.I again quote the same enclyclopaedia on the definition of Aries.

" Aries is traditionally known as the first constellation of the zodiac.Aries is

symbolized by a ram. In mythology,it represents the ram with the golden fleece

that was sought by Jason and the Argonauts... .Technically, Aries is no longer

the first zodiacal sign because the vernal equinox has moved on into the Pisces,

due to the effect of the precession of the equinoxes. "

You see the western people have their own story or purana about the Aries

constellations 'Jason and the Argonauts'.Whereas in the hindu mythology, we have

no such story.This also proves that it was not originally ours.In their concept,

Aries is also equivalent to vernal equinox.Your fixed Aries concept without

relationship with the vernal equinox is not only unacceptable from their

concept, but also from the concept of our own puranas like the Bhagvatam about

mesh rashi.Our Bhagvatam repeats again again that makar sankranti represents

uttrayan.Not only that our dharmas shastra like Dharma sindhu also says so. But

you being ignorant about dharma shastra like Dharma sindhu, kala madhav etc talk

like a unread and non religious person. You also do not take the trouble to read

them. You know only how to stick to your limited knowledge and say if we have to

celebrate uttarayan then we can join Christmas parties.

Well why do you not become a christian to do so rather than recommend such a

silly propopsal to fellow hindus.

Saying mesh is free from the spring equinox or that makar sankranti is free from

uttarayan, you people have shown the ignorance of the century.I can understand

you have not read dharma shastras as mentioned above.But what I cannot

understand is why do you not purchase a book and read.They are not costly books.

Or go to a library and read them.But do not make the jokes of the century by

saying mesh sankranti is not linked to vernal equinox and makar sankranti is not

linked to winter solstice.Bhagvatam itself is full of these assertions.I have

quoted the description of the Sishumar chakra too.

OK then good bye for today.Take care.

Hari Malla

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy

a wrote:

>

> Shri Harimalla,

>  

>  

> 1)

> Go and discuss calendar reform in calendar group and not here. In future

please do not talk to me about Calendar reform.  You have harassed me enough in

the AIA group with your nonsensical ideas such as need for renaming the Rashis

and Nakshatras and also that instead of 12 constellations 88 constellations

should be considered in astrology and that it is in the interest of Dharma even

though you yourself do not believe in Phalita Jyotisha. You don't even know that

the ecliptic has 27 constellations and not 12. I made you admit that nothing

like consideration of 88 constellations  is mentioned in the ancient texts and

that these are your own wild ideas. If you want to create a new form of Jyotish

shastra please go and do it yourself and publish a book and get the recognition

yourself. But don't try to involve me in your absurd ideas. Please do not try

your usual trick to do useless emotional tricks like saying that you are very

concerned about

> the Dharma. 

>  

> 2)

> Why do you say as follows?

>  

> Quote

>  

> Why do you phalit people panic to learn that the rashis were not treated in

the Vedas when all agree that it wasdealt with in the puranas?

>  

> Unquote

>  

> Don't you understand the English language. I have already given reference to

the verses, where the Rashis appear in the Vedas, Vedanga Jyotisha and Purana.

So why should we panic? It is people like you, who are against the Jyotish

Shasta, are panicking. What an anti-astrology man like you is doing here?

>  

> Tell AKK and Sathaye and others that Sayanacharya said in the foreword in his

work on Rig Veda that the Vedas should be supplemented with the Itihasa and the

Puranas.   Sathaye could not find the Vedanga jyotisha. I told him where to find

the Vedanga Jyotisha, published by INSA. Any Vedic scholar will understand that

the verses I gave show the presence of Rashi in Veda.  Also tell them that all

the nine grahas are also in the Veda. Sometimes the terminologies are different.

For example,  Rahu and Ketu are called Svarabhanu in Veda. The Sun, the Moon and

Brihaspati are of course in the same name. I already told AKK that Manu had told

that the Kings should consult Astrologers. thereby approving the use of

Astrology. If AKK cannot find a copy of the Manu smriti you can tell him that it

is in the Internet. If you people want to remain in your own self-imposed

darkness I have no objection.

>  

> I repeat. Please do not address any mail to me in connection with Calendar. If

you find any other member of the group interested in discussing calendar with

you then you can discuss calendar with him provided the Modearorji approves such

discussions here.

>  

> Sincerley,

>  

> S.K.Bhattacharjya

>  

>  

>  

> --- On Sat, 6/20/09, harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> wrote:

>

>

> harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..>

> Fw: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Re: Rashi in Vedic literature,

the Relevant Chronology and the Sidereal

>

> Saturday, June 20, 2009, 1:46 AM

>

>

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjyaji,

> Sorry for the interrruption, but I am tempted to ask one question.What exactly

is the purpose of this hot discussion wether the rashis were in the vedas or

not? If a proposal of calendar reform is produced with the rashis included, will

that not satisfy you? Why have you to defend the presence of the rashis in the

vedas?why so much attachment to phalit jyotish? I am assuming that the purpose

of all this discussion is whether to consider the rashis in the calendar reform

or not.Why do you phalit people panic to learn that the rashis were not treated

in the vedas when all agree that it was dealt with in the puranas.

> Since the puranas have also become part of our scriptures or culture, many

people will agree to include the rashis as part of our culture.I think be

satisfied with this instead of claiming the rashis to be in the vedas by fair

means or false. This is just waste of time.When a method of calendar reform is

available with the rashis continuing why do you not support such a method of

calendar reform?

> Thank you,

> Hari Malla

> , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy

a wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, sunil_bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a

wrote:

> >

> >

> > sunil_bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a

> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Re: Rashi in Vedic literature, the Relevant

Chronology and the Sidereal

> > WAVES-Vedic

> > Cc: Vedic_research_ institute, USBrahmins@gro

ups.com, kk.mehrotra@ ...

> > Friday, June 19, 2009, 8:09 PM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Shri Mehrotra,

> >  

> > 1)

> > Did you not yourself opine as follows;

> >  

> > Quote

> >  

> >   " To me, he appears to be hardly a Vedic scholar "

> >  

> > Unquote

> >  

> > Did you expect me to challenge your opinion and go all out to prove myself

as a Vedic scholar? Vedas are too vast and it is not easy for one to call

oneself as a Vedic scholar. I understand that many hold the view that even the

great Sayanacharya had given the meanings more from the rituals point of view. I

have written in mails what I knew about the Rashi in veda and Purana and you

opined that I am not a scholar. So I have no intention of changing your opinion

on that.

> >  

> > 2)

> > You also said as follows "

> >  

> > Quote

> >  

> > " However, they always seem to me always converging on phalita-jyotisha being

a Vedic science,as witnessed from your discussion in this and other forums "

> >  

> > Unquote

> >  

> > Here I contest your views. For example, in the Advaita forum I have not

talked about Astrology at all so far, as there was no need for that. Avtar

Krishen Kaul sent some posts in some fora and I contested his views and that

made you to jump to the hasty conclusion made as above.

> >  

> > 3)

> > Now will you please tell me at least about yourself so that at least I can

get know about your scholarship?

> >  

> > 4)

> > As regards the Vedas and the puranas and their chronology you are free to

hold your own views. If you think that the Vedic words and the verses do not

have any paroksha meaning it is upto you. I have quoted what the Brhadaranyaka

Upanishad said. How do you say that I alone hold about the Paroksha meaning of

the Vedic verses? You took the name of Swami Dayanand Saraswati. Ask him about

it and report to the forum. He may remove your doubts.

> > You have not read Dr. N.R.Joshi's mail carefully. He mentions about the

seven layers of meanings of the Vedic words and verses.

> >  

> > 5)

> > If you come to the conclusion that the Puranas are zero-veda then that is

your opinion. BTW do you know what are the five criteria to be met by the

Puranas?

> >  

> > 6)

> > I have given that date of the Bhagavata purana and this purana mentions the

Rashis. About the date of the earliest date of the RigVeda I concur with the

findings of Dr. Narahari Achar.

> >  

> > Sincerely,

> >  

> > Sunil K.Bhattacharjya 

> >  

> >  

> >

> > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, kk.mehrotra <kk.mehrotra@ ...> wrote:

> >

> >

> > kk.mehrotra <kk.mehrotra@ ...>

> > [WAVES-Vedic] Re: Rashi in Vedic literature, the Relevant

Chronology and the Sidereal

> > WAVES-Vedic

> > Friday, June 19, 2009, 12:25 PM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Shri Bhattacharjya,

> > If you are not a Vedic scholar, I do not know how you can claim to know

" parokshya " meaning of the Vedic mantras when actually you say yourself that you

do not have " pratakshya " knowledge of the Vedas either.

> >

> > I do not know about Mr. Sathaye, but I am impressed to see your varied

interests. However, they seem to me always converging on phalita-jyotisha being

a Vedic science, as witnessed from your discussions in this and other forums.

That is why I said that you were trying to pass astrology on the shoulders of

the Vedas.

> >

> > Your statements that some Upanishadas talk of the Puranas etc. also makes me

feel that Dayananda Saraswati was correct when he had said that there had been

tamperings with the puranas and even some Vedic parts. If the Itihasas and

Puranas came after the Vedas, how could the Vedas advise us that the Puranas and

itihasas were the fifth Veda! Besides, if we have to study ithasas and Puranas

before the Vedas, then they could be called Zero-Veda and not the fifth Veda!

> >

> > It has been pointed out by Dr. N. R. Joshi that Yaska and several other

Acharyas etc. have not given any " parokshya " meanings of the mantras, the way

you have done. I wonder why you alone have been chosen as an exception for such

" hidden " meanings!

> > I also saw a lot of your correspondence with Dr. Wilkinson in this forum

where he claims that he had seen Tropical zodiac in the Vedas through his yoga

and tapasya and wanted the Hindus to celebrate Makar Sankranti on the Winter

Solstice. Is it the same zodiac that you claim to have " parokshya " knowledge

about from the Vedas or is it some other zodiac?

> > Regarding Vedanga Jyotisha, since I have no knowldge of that work, pl. give

me the complete address of the website where it is available. I could not find

it on INSA site.

> >

> > About Rashis in Bhagawata Purana etc., there is again a lot of material

avaialbe in your discussions in other forums. Nobody is denying that there are

rashis in the Puranas. But how does that prove that those rashis have been taken

from the Vedas, and they are not interpolations from other sources, espedially

when the Rashis are supposed to be " paroskhya " in the Vedas.

> > Can you pl. give the dates of various puranas and the Vedas as well

Upanishadas according to you so that I could understand as to whether it was the

puranas that talked about the Vedas or it was the other way round.

> > It is my humble request that there is nothing personal in this discussion

but just an exchange of views. I want to improve my own knowledge.

> > With regaqrds,

> > Yours sincerely,

> > K K Mehrotra

> >

> >

> > WAVES-Vedic, sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Mehrotraji,

> > >  

> > > I agree with you that I appear to be hardly a Vedic scholar. But your

assumption that I am an astrologer is also not correct. I am a retired scientist

and with interest in Ancient Indian History, Indian Philosophy and the Jyotish

Shastra, which includes Hindu Astronomy and Hindu Astrology.. In the WAVES-Vedic

forum itself there may be some Vedic scholars and I hope they will express their

views sooner or later.

> > >  

> > > I wish to clarify that you are mistaken to assume that I am insisting that

you must accept my interpretations of the Vedic Mantras. I have just given my

views. To accept or not is at your discretion. I am also not trying to pass

astrology on the shoulders of the Vedas. It is upto you to accept or not what I

said but please do not be judgemental like that.

> > >  

> > > Avinash Sathayeji says as follows:

> > >  

> > > Quote

> > >  

> > > I have given up on Sunilji because he wants us to accept two axioms:

> > > 1. Vedas have a hidden meaning.

> > > 2. Only special people are entitled to this meaning and these people are

not responsible to explain even a whole Richa, let alone a Sukta based on their

view.

> > > We have to simply accept their declaration as the true truth!

> > >  

> > > Unquote

> > >  

> > > I am shocked by the accuasations from Dr. Sathaye saying that he is put

off by my two axioms.  I just  simply told him that the Vedic words and the

verses have Paroksha and Pratyaksha meanings. Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.2.2)

says :  " paroksha priya hi devaah pratyaksha dvishah " , which means that the gods

love the indirect or obscure meanings  and dislikes the evident or obvious. Let

him not accept that if he likes.

> > >  

> > > I do not claim myself to be an authority on the Veda. But I understand

that for proper comprehension of the Vedic verses one must read the Puranas

first and then one must also know the Vyakarana, Nirukta and Chanda etc. If this

requirement makes someone special then it is so. He does not have to accept my

firm interpretation.

> > >  

> > > He has not told me whether he could find the verse on Rashi in the Vedanga

Jyotisha. I wrote to him that the INSA's publication on the " Vedanga Jyotisha "

is available in the Internet and one can have access to it in five. minutes.

> > >  

> > > He has also not given any feedback whether he could see the Rashi in the

Bhagavata Purana. Recently Parameshwaranji sent a mail to the USBrahmins forum

with the verses (with rashis mentioned in them) from the Vamana Purana .

> > >  

> > > He just wants only to extract information and criticize unnecessarily.

> > >

> > >  

> > >  Sincerely,

> > >  

> > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya 

> > >  

> > >

> > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, K K Mehrotra <kk.mehrotra@ ...> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > K K Mehrotra <kk.mehrotra@ ...>

> > > [WAVES-Vedic] Re: Rashi in Vedic literature, the Relevant

Chronology and the Sidereal

> > > " Avinash Sathaye " <sohum@>

> > > Cc: waves-vedic

> > > Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 12:31 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Sathayeji,

> > > I was under the impression that I had posted my mail to the WAVES-VEDIC

forum.  On seeing your response, I checked the reason and  find that the mail

reaches, by default, to the person concerned instead of the forum!  This happens

only with WAVES!

> > >

> > > I also find Shri Bhattacharjya' s insistence that we must accept only his

interpretations of the Vedic mantras a bit difficult to digest.  To me, he

appears to be hardly a Vedic scholar, though he poses to be one. He is more of

an astrologer than anything else, who is trying to pass astrology on the

shoulders of the Vedas.

> > >

> > > I do not know much about Aurobindo but I have read Dayananda Saraawati's

Bhashya of the Vedas.  I am not an Arya Samaji, but I agree with almost all of

his interpretations.  I wish I coiuld understand Sayana Bhashya, since I do not

have much knowledge of Sanskrit.

> > > Anyway, many thanks for the prompt reply.

> > > K. K. Mehrotra

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --- On Tue, 6/16/09, Avinash Sathaye <sohum@ edu> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Avinash Sathaye <sohum@ edu>

> > > Re: Rashi in Vedic literature, the Relevant Chronology and the

Sidereal

> > > " kk.mehrotra " <kk.mehrotra@ >

> > > Tuesday, June 16, 2009, 3:43 PM

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Malhotraji,

> > >

> > > Thank you for agreeing with me.

> > > I have given up on Sunilji because he wants us to accept two axioms:

> > > 1. Vedas have a hidden meaning.

> > > 2. Only special people are entitled to this meaning and these people are

not responsible to explain even a whole Richa, let alone a Sukta based on their

view.

> > > We have to simply accept their declaration as the true truth!

> > >

> > >

> > > In other words, any argument with SB is likely to produce anything useful

or rational.

> > >

> > > This is the reason I have decide not to waste my time on this discussion.

If one of these seers were to describe their methodology, their full

understaanding of their alternate meaning on a rational basis, then I am very

interested.

> > >

> > > Aravind had his spiritual interpretation and did write down extensive

commentaries. While I don't always agree with his twist on the Vedic meanings, I

respect his intellectual honesty and overall view.

> > >

> > > Once again, thank you.

> > >

> > > kk.mehrotra wrote:

> > > Respected members,

> > > I am a new comer to this forum.

> > > This discussion of Rashis in the Vedas is quite interesting and is going

on in several forums, where I have seen on Shri Bhattacharjya' s responses

without any mail from Shri Sathaye.

> > > I am in full agreement with Avinashji's interpretations. It can hardly be

presumed that Vasishtha and Vishwamitra etc. Rishis indulged in horoscope

reading or match-making!

> > > Best wishes

> > > K K Mehrotra

> > > WAVES-Vedic, Avinash Sathaye <sohum@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I was happy to see more details from Sunil K. Bhattacharjya.

> > > However, I still see many problems with the claim of Rashis in the Veda.

> > > Here are my observations:

> > >

> > >

> > > SB said:

> > > /A) Rashi in Veda

> > >

> > > 1)

> > > Rarshis are mentioned in the Veda. Rig Veda (RV) mentions Vrshabha (RV

> > > 6.47.5; 8.93.1),

> > > /

> > > *In 6.47.5 vRRiShabha is used as an adjective of Soma. sAyaNa explains

> > > it as " vRRiSheTirjanayitA " - creator of rains, since offering of Soma

> > > leads to rains!

> > > Could we have a parokSha explanation of the whole verse please!!

> > > I have already given 8.93.1 in detail. My request to get a parokSha

> > > explanation of it is still not resolved.

> > >

> > > *SB further said:

> > > /Mithun (RV 3..39.3), Simha (RV 5.83.7; 9.89.3) and Kanya (RV 6.49.7)./

> > > *

> > > Of these, I quickly checked 6.49.7. There the word kanyA exists as an

> > > adjective to the Goddess Saraswati.

> > > Where does one get the Rashi?

> > > sAyaNa

> > > describes as

> > > kanyA=kamanIyA.

> > > Again, pleas give us a complete translation of the whole verse which

> > > justifies the alternate meaning.

> > > If one were to go by just the Rashi names appearing somewhere, then I

> > > can find many more references in Rigveda(:-))

> > >

> > > SB further said;

> > >

> > > / /*/There is also mention of Kumbha (Rasi), where Agastya and

> > > Vasishtha were born. The verse is :

> > >

> > > ????? ? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????? ????? |

> > > ??? ? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???????????? ???? || (RV 7.33.13)

> > >

> > > Ordinarily Kumbha will mean a pot or kalash but we know that Agastya was

> > > born from the womb of his mother haribhoo and not from a pot. So we

> > > understand that Agastya was born in Kumbha Rashi. Here one has to

> > > interpret the metaphors properly.

> > >

> > > Dr.Vartak pointed out the mention of Mesha, Vrischika and Dhanu Rashis

> > > in Veda. He also identified Anas-Ratha with Tula Rashi and Shyena as

> > > Meena Rashi in the Veda. I

> > > fully support Dr. Vartak's view as he knows

> > > that the Veda itself says that it has Paroksha and Pratyaksha meaning of

> > > the verses.

> > >

> > > /*If, as Dr. Vartak and SB say this kumbha is a Rashi, then what is the

> > > explanation of the rest?

> > > The verse is mentioning Mitravaruna dropping equal amount of semen in

> > > the kumbha and from it were born Agastya and Vasishtha.

> > >

> > > Could we have a parokSha translation of the whole mantra please? Without

> > > that, we simply have to take the mention of Rashi as an assertion of

> > > faith (perhaps in the great seer Dr. vartak?)

> > > *

> > > SB frurther said:

> > >

> > > /2) Rashi in Vedanga Jyotisha

> > >

> > > Meena Rashi is clearly mentioned in the Vedanga Jyotisha (Yajur Vedanga

> > > Jyotisha-verse 5). The verse is :

> > >

> > > Ye brihaspatina bhuktva MEENAN prabhriti rasayaH

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> > > te hritaH panchabhiryataH yaH seshaH sa parigrihaH

> > >

> > > (Yajur Vedanga Jyotisha - sloka 5)

> > > [

> > > Here 'Meenan prabhriti RasayaH'

> > > means Meena and other Rashis. As Dr.

> > > Vartak points out Meena was called Shyena in the Veda

> > >

> > > /*Please tell us what edition of VJ is this? I cannot locate this verse

> > > in my copy at all. I wrote the fifth verse in mine already. I also gave

> > > the exact reference to my source. Please reciprocate. */

> > > /

> > >

> > > --

> > >

> > >

> > > With Best Regards,

> > > Avinash Sathaye

> > > (859)277-0130 (H) (859)257-8832 (O)

> > > Web: www.msc.uky. edu/sohum

> > >

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