Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Dear RR, Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. Hare Krishna. Abhijit vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > RR > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Kudos to your contribution, Basu Dada, but simply throwing in a bit of EM spectral Physics into Astro-symbolism and calling it PHYSICS perhaps may not turn it into Physics, that readily! VIBGYOR, while a convenient spectral association would first need to be associated with the 7 visible entities before we jump into Ultraviolet = Rahu axiom! R=Mars O=Sun Y=Jupiter G=Mercury B=Venus I=? V=Saturn? The above may fit to some extent the colours that are described in Jyotish associated for the planets, but there are obvious discrepancies and no correlation with the order of orbits etc! Just assuming that Ancient Rishis were looking at some beautiful Rainbow when attributing the colours to planets is too simplistic! It the mystical framework that is utilized by divinatory CRAFTS such as astrology and other modalities, unlike science, pretty much anything goes! One just picks a point, turns it into axiom, creates some mystery and mystique and then pretty MUCH ANYTHING GOES! Should this be so, when some of us INSIST on calling Astrology Science? Even those who have received scientific training, Basic, Pure or Applied? Rohiniranjan vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu wrote: > > Dear RR, > > Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- > The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. > > Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. > > Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. > > Hare Krishna. > Abhijit > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > > > RR > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Dear Basu-Dada, Do I have your permission (please express, publicly or privately) to quote your response (without identification or attribution if you prefer it that way!) to re-initiate or at least share our exchange here, elsewhere? Your response, though sadly not at all informative to me, has had the positive effect of reminding me, contrary to what you shared, regarding Jyotish being called the exposition of LIGHT and not EM waves ;-) VERY IMPORTANT POINT! Please do feel completely assured: You shall be kept informed of where I decide to post this train of thought. I am too old to wield axes and have no need to fell trees or kill flora or fauna. I have gone " SOLAR " , if you catch my energetic drift, over the years! Regards, Rohiniranjan vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Kudos to your contribution, Basu Dada, but simply throwing in a bit of EM spectral Physics into Astro-symbolism and calling it PHYSICS perhaps may not turn it into Physics, that readily! > > VIBGYOR, while a convenient spectral association would first need to be associated with the 7 visible entities before we jump into Ultraviolet = Rahu axiom! > > R=Mars > O=Sun > Y=Jupiter > G=Mercury > B=Venus > I=? > V=Saturn? > > The above may fit to some extent the colours that are described in Jyotish associated for the planets, but there are obvious discrepancies and no correlation with the order of orbits etc! Just assuming that Ancient Rishis were looking at some beautiful Rainbow when attributing the colours to planets is too simplistic! > > It the mystical framework that is utilized by divinatory CRAFTS such as astrology and other modalities, unlike science, pretty much anything goes! One just picks a point, turns it into axiom, creates some mystery and mystique and then pretty MUCH ANYTHING GOES! > > Should this be so, when some of us INSIST on calling Astrology Science? Even those who have received scientific training, Basic, Pure or Applied? > > Rohiniranjan > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > Dear RR, > > > > Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- > > The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. > > > > Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. > > > > Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. > > > > Hare Krishna. > > Abhijit > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > > > > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > > > > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > > > > > RR > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hello Rohini, Trust you are doing well. First things first - Answer to your question on syndication and further use of my comments is " No " . My comments to your " Dual Lordships " query and the one underway are strictly for the audience of this forum and I have complete faith that you will respect that. Now from your comments I believe you are a light hearted person infact, pretty funny and open to learning. I also do perceive you have a liking for all things complicated, which is certainly contrary to my way of thinking and will be so when compared with the people who spoke the first intelligible word and pronounced the Vedic hymns. To simplify matters please address me as Abhijit as most of my well wishers do. I am glad my earlier comments though didn't materially introduced anything new still helped you rediscover the knowledge within; and it is very kind of you to acknowledge that. Now, I have to disagree with the mystical framework aspect of your comment. If we really want astrology to be accepted as a science universally then it has to be based on practical framework, which astrology is, primarily driven by logic, numbers and facts drawn from observation of the seers who were people like you an me - may be with a little more awe, curiosity and humility than we posses today. Vedic people were very practical people so mysticism has to be rooted out of this science, this is know voodoo for sure. If we really want to know " Vid " which is the root of Veda then we need to observe the simple things that surrounds us because that is all millennial old people had to their access. EM, Spectroscopy , quantum mechanics, Fourier transformation of EM waves all sounds fancy and may support, but none of it existed when this vedic science was scripted. All they had was Sun, light, moon, water and a curious mind to see the simple optical phenomenon called dispersion of light in their surroundings in different forms (Rainbow being one, dispersion of sun light by moon, transparent body of water etc being others). Also, if you take the time to read my earlier comments with a simple attitude of curiosity - keeping aside the agenda who is right or who you can trump over (just kidding) then you will see that I didn't stop at the light association being the only possible connection. I talked about the astrological facts like Rahu and Ketu's fixed disposition and Rahu's resemblance to Sani, and Ketu's to Scorpio and eighth house. I am sure with your extensive knowledge on the subject you can add to it. Nothing like a passionate discussion where members use simple respectful language to communicate complicated ideas and arguments. Knowing you I am sure you will post a reply to this and I am looking forward to a simple train of thought which should reflect your years of experience and humility that can only be gained through being wrong in the past. Thank you. Abhijit vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Dear Basu-Dada, > > Do I have your permission (please express, publicly or privately) to quote your response (without identification or attribution if you prefer it that way!) to re-initiate or at least share our exchange here, elsewhere? > > Your response, though sadly not at all informative to me, has had the positive effect of reminding me, contrary to what you shared, regarding Jyotish being called the exposition of LIGHT and not EM waves ;-) > > VERY IMPORTANT POINT! > > Please do feel completely assured: You shall be kept informed of where I decide to post this train of thought. I am too old to wield axes and have no need to fell trees or kill flora or fauna. I have gone " SOLAR " , if you catch my energetic drift, over the years! > > Regards, > > Rohiniranjan > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > Kudos to your contribution, Basu Dada, but simply throwing in a bit of EM spectral Physics into Astro-symbolism and calling it PHYSICS perhaps may not turn it into Physics, that readily! > > > > VIBGYOR, while a convenient spectral association would first need to be associated with the 7 visible entities before we jump into Ultraviolet = Rahu axiom! > > > > R=Mars > > O=Sun > > Y=Jupiter > > G=Mercury > > B=Venus > > I=? > > V=Saturn? > > > > The above may fit to some extent the colours that are described in Jyotish associated for the planets, but there are obvious discrepancies and no correlation with the order of orbits etc! Just assuming that Ancient Rishis were looking at some beautiful Rainbow when attributing the colours to planets is too simplistic! > > > > It the mystical framework that is utilized by divinatory CRAFTS such as astrology and other modalities, unlike science, pretty much anything goes! One just picks a point, turns it into axiom, creates some mystery and mystique and then pretty MUCH ANYTHING GOES! > > > > Should this be so, when some of us INSIST on calling Astrology Science? Even those who have received scientific training, Basic, Pure or Applied? > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear RR, > > > > > > Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- > > > The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. > > > > > > Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. > > > > > > Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. > > > > > > Hare Krishna. > > > Abhijit > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > > > > > > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > > > > > > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Just a few statements for your perusal: " Simple " can be a very self-deceptive term, Abhijit! Particularly when it is used to justify one's hyptothesis or postulation etc and rejecting other things that lie outside. It is a very tired and overused cliché which means different things to different people. Always has :-) I would not speculate about what the Vaidik people used to think or how practical they were (all? Few?? Some???). I do hope that there were many more who lived in those times than the relatively few who wrote the Vedas and obviously were 'Professors'. If only a few textbooks and let us say a few books by Rajneesh and a CD by Elvis were the only things to survive -- I am sure people having access to these 10000 years from now will have a very different view of how people lived in the 20th and 21st century! Would you not agree? Before claiming astrology to be a science, as seems to have become the norm (Jyotish does not have to wear the coat of arms of Science to be considered useful or respectable, in my opinion!), people would first have to show that it is a Science. Alchemy did not turn into the PURE SCIENCE of Chemistry overnight and not by claiming that Alchemy is science! I hope I am not hurting the feelings of some modern day alchemists! I would like to know why you are stating that rahu and ketu are 'fixed' influences like saturn is considered generally! If we are going to use symbolism in explaining something or justifying it, we cannot inject 'attributes' that help our assumptions and suppositions etc. Nodes generally produce sudden and dramatic changes and unlike saturn tend to have effects that are anything but 'fixed'. And, please do not worry, seeing your sensitivity about it, I shall not quote your thoughts etc elsewhere, including in my private blog ;-). Your post shall remain for the 'readership' of this forum ;-} As to your hinting at remaining 'respectful', I have never tried to be anything but! The archives going over many years are the proof of the pudding...! RR_, vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu wrote: > > Hello Rohini, > > Trust you are doing well. First things first - Answer to your question on syndication and further use of my comments is " No " . My comments to your " Dual Lordships " query and the one underway are strictly for the audience of this forum and I have complete faith that you will respect that. > > Now from your comments I believe you are a light hearted person infact, pretty funny and open to learning. I also do perceive you have a liking for all things complicated, which is certainly contrary to my way of thinking and will be so when compared with the people who spoke the first intelligible word and pronounced the Vedic hymns. > > To simplify matters please address me as Abhijit as most of my well wishers do. I am glad my earlier comments though didn't materially introduced anything new still helped you rediscover the knowledge within; and it is very kind of you to acknowledge that. > > Now, I have to disagree with the mystical framework aspect of your comment. If we really want astrology to be accepted as a science universally then it has to be based on practical framework, which astrology is, primarily driven by logic, numbers and facts drawn from observation of the seers who were people like you an me - may be with a little more awe, curiosity and humility than we posses today. Vedic people were very practical people so mysticism has to be rooted out of this science, this is know voodoo for sure. > > If we really want to know " Vid " which is the root of Veda then we need to observe the simple things that surrounds us because that is all millennial old people had to their access. EM, Spectroscopy , quantum mechanics, Fourier transformation of EM waves all sounds fancy and may support, but none of it existed when this vedic science was scripted. All they had was Sun, light, moon, water and a curious mind to see the simple optical phenomenon called dispersion of light in their surroundings in different forms (Rainbow being one, dispersion of sun light by moon, transparent body of water etc being others). > > Also, if you take the time to read my earlier comments with a simple attitude of curiosity - keeping aside the agenda who is right or who you can trump over (just kidding) then you will see that I didn't stop at the light association being the only possible connection. I talked about the astrological facts like Rahu and Ketu's fixed disposition and Rahu's resemblance to Sani, and Ketu's to Scorpio and eighth house. I am sure with your extensive knowledge on the subject you can add to it. > > Nothing like a passionate discussion where members use simple respectful language to communicate complicated ideas and arguments. > Knowing you I am sure you will post a reply to this and I am looking forward to a simple train of thought which should reflect your years of experience and humility that can only be gained through being wrong in the past. > > Thank you. > Abhijit > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > Dear Basu-Dada, > > > > Do I have your permission (please express, publicly or privately) to quote your response (without identification or attribution if you prefer it that way!) to re-initiate or at least share our exchange here, elsewhere? > > > > Your response, though sadly not at all informative to me, has had the positive effect of reminding me, contrary to what you shared, regarding Jyotish being called the exposition of LIGHT and not EM waves ;-) > > > > VERY IMPORTANT POINT! > > > > Please do feel completely assured: You shall be kept informed of where I decide to post this train of thought. I am too old to wield axes and have no need to fell trees or kill flora or fauna. I have gone " SOLAR " , if you catch my energetic drift, over the years! > > > > Regards, > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > Kudos to your contribution, Basu Dada, but simply throwing in a bit of EM spectral Physics into Astro-symbolism and calling it PHYSICS perhaps may not turn it into Physics, that readily! > > > > > > VIBGYOR, while a convenient spectral association would first need to be associated with the 7 visible entities before we jump into Ultraviolet = Rahu axiom! > > > > > > R=Mars > > > O=Sun > > > Y=Jupiter > > > G=Mercury > > > B=Venus > > > I=? > > > V=Saturn? > > > > > > The above may fit to some extent the colours that are described in Jyotish associated for the planets, but there are obvious discrepancies and no correlation with the order of orbits etc! Just assuming that Ancient Rishis were looking at some beautiful Rainbow when attributing the colours to planets is too simplistic! > > > > > > It the mystical framework that is utilized by divinatory CRAFTS such as astrology and other modalities, unlike science, pretty much anything goes! One just picks a point, turns it into axiom, creates some mystery and mystique and then pretty MUCH ANYTHING GOES! > > > > > > Should this be so, when some of us INSIST on calling Astrology Science? Even those who have received scientific training, Basic, Pure or Applied? > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear RR, > > > > > > > > Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- > > > > The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. > > > > > > > > Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. > > > > > > > > Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna. > > > > Abhijit > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > > > > > > > > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > > > > > > > > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Hello Rohini, I should mention I am really enjoying the conversation . Wish it was face to face I didn't have to type so much. Great statements - Your statement on Simplicity reflects today's reality. But in our heart we all know what simplicity feels like. It keeps you at a place where you are at ease and at peace with yourself. An immense ethereal pleasure that can only be felt internally in pursuing an action, deed, speech or many other things those make life happen. Simple pleasure of drinking water after thirsty run under the sun. How about starting with a smile very simple thing that can diffuse an irreversible human situation, if both sides take a smile as a smile and not attach meanings beyond what it means. A good solution to a problem can only be obtained when we have understood the problem completely including the factors the are outside of the immediate domain, but have influence and can make the solution fail. A good first step is observation and internalization of various and new existential forms of one reality. A very good example of it is various understanding of God, while we all agree they are all different forms of the one universal truth but, in practice my god is more revered than yours. If something gives you a headache it is complicated. Now to eat my own dog food - writing of this whole para to support my thoughts expressed in three sentences above clearly indicates me we are complicating things here. Let us drop this topic from further discussion. On the Practical Vedic people statement - I conditionally agree to your comment provided we put a constraint of one channel or source of information. That is exactly why we have to verify, substantiate and consider different mutually exclusive sources to finally reach a conclusion, keeping in mind that conclusion might change with a new existential form of the same reality. In our example ancient writings is one way to ascertain (or Rajneesh's CDS), archaeology could be other, learning about contemporary cultures and finding specific links that connect to our civilization can reflect and verify a lot of observations. Like why should we believe " Zero " was invented by ancient Indians. Now if you go and verify more than one mutually exclusive channel or source of information then you will consistently get the same answer. Speculation is fool's mean, educated decisions propel life. Claiming astrology a Science - Well, no need. Astrology can stand on its own sound footing like the numeral system. What we know as science today was actually suppose to be arts in the 16th century and vice versa. So is true for copyright and Patent, things got switched. Science and arts are just words to represent some human concepts and have been agreed to facilitate language protocol of contemporary society. So thinking simple it doesn't really matter. We are talking of a subject or topic which is astrology or alchemy and as long as two sides involved understand the basics, communicate and learn rest doesn't matter. A good example - Like in any society there were only a small group of creative scholars in ancient India, but their knowledge was communicated to illiterate masses then, and to generation after via frescos, paintings and temple sculptures on different subjects including a taboo like sex. As a result, no other civilization in the past or in the future can claim a strong and consistent practice of values and tenets in a society of illiterate masses as India of the bygone times, reminisces of which is still being practiced in distorted form and without knowledge of the value across homes in India. Power of simplicity and something that is original can hold of its own, i.e the reason why astrology is still being practiced and is reaching masses all across the globe. Why I am stating Rahu and Ketu are fixed - My understanding is based on what I have conveyed already and the following: Let us see what they represent in Vedic astrology Saturn - Karma Ketu - Moksha/death Rahu - Desire like birth -, Karma, desire and Moksha are fixed legs of life cycle. We may or may not get Dhana, Bhagya, educations everything else. But human is born, does Karma, has desire and will die/moksha/end/finito. I find there an universal consistency that can be applied across all human life and which is fixed. That is one source - Now let us look from an mutually exclusive angle/view other than vedic scriptures - what these nodes really are on a physical plane. Rahu is the North Node and Ketu is the South Node. They are points on the ecliptic where the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and the Earth. They indicate the precise/fixed point (I repeat fixed point) of the harmony on the physical plane if we consider the frame of reference with the three most important influences that breeds life- the Sun, the Earth and the Moon. Now if you come and tell me a point on a plane in frame referenced geometry is not fixed or I am conveniently using it to support my hypothesis by picking and choosing then I have nothing more to say because that is an argument beyond my rational understanding. But, I am sincerely hoping that you will help me to build on the concept while bringing out the possible flaws and find new independent sources to ratify/reject the concept. What you get as a result of planets influence whether that is sudden or has been brewing over a period of time is open to argument, is a complete guess work and can not be logically quantified given the mathematical permutation and combination of multiple factors involved in a chart including karma from previous life, which would mean nothing could be sudden/instantaneous if it is carrying forward from past life. Also, I have seen reference in scriptures of Rahu and Ketu lording dual signs Virgo and Pisces, but have not been able to find another independent means to justify it. None of it means my decision is final about Rahu and Ketu. As I said before a new existential form of the same reality can change my point of view, but as of today given what I know I stand by it. You are more than welcome to challenge, suggest in contrary and help me learn. But please give me at least two mutually exclusive means to justify the conclusion. Thank you for your sharp insights and constant challenge to find the lost truth, I truly appreciate it. Thank you, Hare Krishna. Abhijit vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani wrote: > > Just a few statements for your perusal: > > " Simple " can be a very self-deceptive term, Abhijit! Particularly when it is used to justify one's hyptothesis or postulation etc and rejecting other things that lie outside. It is a very tired and overused cliché which means different things to different people. Always has :-) > > I would not speculate about what the Vaidik people used to think or how practical they were (all? Few?? Some???). I do hope that there were many more who lived in those times than the relatively few who wrote the Vedas and obviously were 'Professors'. If only a few textbooks and let us say a few books by Rajneesh and a CD by Elvis were the only things to survive -- I am sure people having access to these 10000 years from now will have a very different view of how people lived in the 20th and 21st century! Would you not agree? > > Before claiming astrology to be a science, as seems to have become the norm (Jyotish does not have to wear the coat of arms of Science to be considered useful or respectable, in my opinion!), people would first have to show that it is a Science. Alchemy did not turn into the PURE SCIENCE of Chemistry overnight and not by claiming that Alchemy is science! I hope I am not hurting the feelings of some modern day alchemists! > > I would like to know why you are stating that rahu and ketu are 'fixed' influences like saturn is considered generally! If we are going to use symbolism in explaining something or justifying it, we cannot inject 'attributes' that help our assumptions and suppositions etc. Nodes generally produce sudden and dramatic changes and unlike saturn tend to have effects that are anything but 'fixed'. > > And, please do not worry, seeing your sensitivity about it, I shall not quote your thoughts etc elsewhere, including in my private blog ;-). Your post shall remain for the 'readership' of this forum ;-} > > As to your hinting at remaining 'respectful', I have never tried to be anything but! The archives going over many years are the proof of the pudding...! > > RR_, > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > Hello Rohini, > > > > Trust you are doing well. First things first - Answer to your question on syndication and further use of my comments is " No " . My comments to your " Dual Lordships " query and the one underway are strictly for the audience of this forum and I have complete faith that you will respect that. > > > > Now from your comments I believe you are a light hearted person infact, pretty funny and open to learning. I also do perceive you have a liking for all things complicated, which is certainly contrary to my way of thinking and will be so when compared with the people who spoke the first intelligible word and pronounced the Vedic hymns. > > > > To simplify matters please address me as Abhijit as most of my well wishers do. I am glad my earlier comments though didn't materially introduced anything new still helped you rediscover the knowledge within; and it is very kind of you to acknowledge that. > > > > Now, I have to disagree with the mystical framework aspect of your comment. If we really want astrology to be accepted as a science universally then it has to be based on practical framework, which astrology is, primarily driven by logic, numbers and facts drawn from observation of the seers who were people like you an me - may be with a little more awe, curiosity and humility than we posses today. Vedic people were very practical people so mysticism has to be rooted out of this science, this is know voodoo for sure. > > > > If we really want to know " Vid " which is the root of Veda then we need to observe the simple things that surrounds us because that is all millennial old people had to their access. EM, Spectroscopy , quantum mechanics, Fourier transformation of EM waves all sounds fancy and may support, but none of it existed when this vedic science was scripted. All they had was Sun, light, moon, water and a curious mind to see the simple optical phenomenon called dispersion of light in their surroundings in different forms (Rainbow being one, dispersion of sun light by moon, transparent body of water etc being others). > > > > Also, if you take the time to read my earlier comments with a simple attitude of curiosity - keeping aside the agenda who is right or who you can trump over (just kidding) then you will see that I didn't stop at the light association being the only possible connection. I talked about the astrological facts like Rahu and Ketu's fixed disposition and Rahu's resemblance to Sani, and Ketu's to Scorpio and eighth house. I am sure with your extensive knowledge on the subject you can add to it. > > > > Nothing like a passionate discussion where members use simple respectful language to communicate complicated ideas and arguments. > > Knowing you I am sure you will post a reply to this and I am looking forward to a simple train of thought which should reflect your years of experience and humility that can only be gained through being wrong in the past. > > > > Thank you. > > Abhijit > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Basu-Dada, > > > > > > Do I have your permission (please express, publicly or privately) to quote your response (without identification or attribution if you prefer it that way!) to re-initiate or at least share our exchange here, elsewhere? > > > > > > Your response, though sadly not at all informative to me, has had the positive effect of reminding me, contrary to what you shared, regarding Jyotish being called the exposition of LIGHT and not EM waves ;-) > > > > > > VERY IMPORTANT POINT! > > > > > > Please do feel completely assured: You shall be kept informed of where I decide to post this train of thought. I am too old to wield axes and have no need to fell trees or kill flora or fauna. I have gone " SOLAR " , if you catch my energetic drift, over the years! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kudos to your contribution, Basu Dada, but simply throwing in a bit of EM spectral Physics into Astro-symbolism and calling it PHYSICS perhaps may not turn it into Physics, that readily! > > > > > > > > VIBGYOR, while a convenient spectral association would first need to be associated with the 7 visible entities before we jump into Ultraviolet = Rahu axiom! > > > > > > > > R=Mars > > > > O=Sun > > > > Y=Jupiter > > > > G=Mercury > > > > B=Venus > > > > I=? > > > > V=Saturn? > > > > > > > > The above may fit to some extent the colours that are described in Jyotish associated for the planets, but there are obvious discrepancies and no correlation with the order of orbits etc! Just assuming that Ancient Rishis were looking at some beautiful Rainbow when attributing the colours to planets is too simplistic! > > > > > > > > It the mystical framework that is utilized by divinatory CRAFTS such as astrology and other modalities, unlike science, pretty much anything goes! One just picks a point, turns it into axiom, creates some mystery and mystique and then pretty MUCH ANYTHING GOES! > > > > > > > > Should this be so, when some of us INSIST on calling Astrology Science? Even those who have received scientific training, Basic, Pure or Applied? > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear RR, > > > > > > > > > > Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- > > > > > The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. > > > > > > > > > > Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. > > > > > > > > > > Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. > > > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna. > > > > > Abhijit > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > > > > > > > > > > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Nice collage, or shall we call it a dim-sum lunch? The question was not if scorpio and aquarius were the (ONLY) signs ruled by ketu and rahu but why were they associated more prominently with scorpio and aquarius (chara dasa) and the statement that has been utilized by jyotishis which associates rahu with saturn and ketu with mars etc. It is neither my purpose nor the best use of my time to engage in a sparring match with you because I can see you are pretty nimble on your feet and perhaps good at dancing too for all I know! Once we begin introducing qualities and attributes into fundamentals based on our whims, and perhaps a lot of people do that, but then the discussion becomes a stream of consciousness which works great for certain esoteric spiritual subjects and perhaps some esoteric aspects of astrology too, but it loses practical utility, unless demonstrated otherwise! Peace! RR_, vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu wrote: > > > Hello Rohini, > > I should mention I am really enjoying the conversation . Wish it was face to face I didn't have to type so much. > > Great statements - > Your statement on Simplicity reflects today's reality. But in our heart we all know what simplicity feels like. It keeps you at a place where you are at ease and at peace with yourself. An immense ethereal pleasure that can only be felt internally in pursuing an action, deed, speech or many other things those make life happen. Simple pleasure of drinking water after thirsty run under the sun. > > How about starting with a smile very simple thing that can diffuse an irreversible human situation, if both sides take a smile as a smile and not attach meanings beyond what it means. A good solution to a problem can only be obtained when we have understood the problem completely including the factors the are outside of the immediate domain, but have influence and can make the solution fail. A good first step is observation and internalization of various and new existential forms of one reality. A very good example of it is various understanding of God, while we all agree they are all different forms of the one universal truth but, in practice my god is more revered than yours. If something gives you a headache it is complicated. Now to eat my own dog food - writing of this whole para to support my thoughts expressed in three sentences above clearly indicates me we are complicating things here. Let us drop this topic from further discussion. > > On the Practical Vedic people statement - I conditionally agree to your comment provided we put a constraint of one channel or source of information. That is exactly why we have to verify, substantiate and consider different mutually exclusive sources to finally reach a conclusion, keeping in mind that conclusion might change with a new existential form of the same reality. In our example ancient writings is one way to ascertain (or Rajneesh's CDS), archaeology could be other, learning about contemporary cultures and finding specific links that connect to our civilization can reflect and verify a lot of observations. Like why should we believe " Zero " was invented by ancient Indians. Now if you go and verify more than one mutually exclusive channel or source of information then you will consistently get the same answer. Speculation is fool's mean, educated decisions propel life. > > Claiming astrology a Science - Well, no need. Astrology can stand on its own sound footing like the numeral system. What we know as science today was actually suppose to be arts in the 16th century and vice versa. So is true for copyright and Patent, things got switched. Science and arts are just words to represent some human concepts and have been agreed to facilitate language protocol of contemporary society. So thinking simple it doesn't really matter. We are talking of a subject or topic which is astrology or alchemy and as long as two sides involved understand the basics, communicate and learn rest doesn't matter. A good example - Like in any society there were only a small group of creative scholars in ancient India, but their knowledge was communicated to illiterate masses then, and to generation after via frescos, paintings and temple sculptures on different subjects including a taboo like sex. As a result, no other civilization in the past or in the future can claim a strong and consistent practice of values and tenets in a society of illiterate masses as India of the bygone times, reminisces of which is still being practiced in distorted form and without knowledge of the value across homes in India. Power of simplicity and something that is original can hold of its own, i.e the reason why astrology is still being practiced and is reaching masses all across the globe. > > Why I am stating Rahu and Ketu are fixed - My understanding is based on what I have conveyed already and the following: > Let us see what they represent in Vedic astrology > Saturn - Karma > Ketu - Moksha/death > Rahu - Desire > > like birth -, Karma, desire and Moksha are fixed legs of life cycle. We may or may not get Dhana, Bhagya, educations everything else. But human is born, does Karma, has desire and will die/moksha/end/finito. I find there an universal consistency that can be applied across all human life and which is fixed. > > That is one source - Now let us look from an mutually exclusive angle/view other than vedic scriptures - what these nodes really are on a physical plane. > Rahu is the North Node and Ketu is the South Node. They are points on the ecliptic where the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and the Earth. They indicate the precise/fixed point (I repeat fixed point) of the harmony on the physical plane if we consider the frame of reference with the three most important influences that breeds life- the Sun, the Earth and the Moon. > > Now if you come and tell me a point on a plane in frame referenced geometry is not fixed or I am conveniently using it to support my hypothesis by picking and choosing then I have nothing more to say because that is an argument beyond my rational understanding. But, I am sincerely hoping that you will help me to build on the concept while bringing out the possible flaws and find new independent sources to ratify/reject the concept. > > What you get as a result of planets influence whether that is sudden or has been brewing over a period of time is open to argument, is a complete guess work and can not be logically quantified given the mathematical permutation and combination of multiple factors involved in a chart including karma from previous life, which would mean nothing could be sudden/instantaneous if it is carrying forward from past life. > > Also, I have seen reference in scriptures of Rahu and Ketu lording dual signs Virgo and Pisces, but have not been able to find another independent means to justify it. > > None of it means my decision is final about Rahu and Ketu. As I said before a new existential form of the same reality can change my point of view, but as of today given what I know I stand by it. You are more than welcome to challenge, suggest in contrary and help me learn. But please give me at least two mutually exclusive means to justify the conclusion. > > Thank you for your sharp insights and constant challenge to find the lost truth, I truly appreciate it. > > Thank you, Hare Krishna. > Abhijit > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > Just a few statements for your perusal: > > > > " Simple " can be a very self-deceptive term, Abhijit! Particularly when it is used to justify one's hyptothesis or postulation etc and rejecting other things that lie outside. It is a very tired and overused cliché which means different things to different people. Always has :-) > > > > I would not speculate about what the Vaidik people used to think or how practical they were (all? Few?? Some???). I do hope that there were many more who lived in those times than the relatively few who wrote the Vedas and obviously were 'Professors'. If only a few textbooks and let us say a few books by Rajneesh and a CD by Elvis were the only things to survive -- I am sure people having access to these 10000 years from now will have a very different view of how people lived in the 20th and 21st century! Would you not agree? > > > > Before claiming astrology to be a science, as seems to have become the norm (Jyotish does not have to wear the coat of arms of Science to be considered useful or respectable, in my opinion!), people would first have to show that it is a Science. Alchemy did not turn into the PURE SCIENCE of Chemistry overnight and not by claiming that Alchemy is science! I hope I am not hurting the feelings of some modern day alchemists! > > > > I would like to know why you are stating that rahu and ketu are 'fixed' influences like saturn is considered generally! If we are going to use symbolism in explaining something or justifying it, we cannot inject 'attributes' that help our assumptions and suppositions etc. Nodes generally produce sudden and dramatic changes and unlike saturn tend to have effects that are anything but 'fixed'. > > > > And, please do not worry, seeing your sensitivity about it, I shall not quote your thoughts etc elsewhere, including in my private blog ;-). Your post shall remain for the 'readership' of this forum ;-} > > > > As to your hinting at remaining 'respectful', I have never tried to be anything but! The archives going over many years are the proof of the pudding...! > > > > RR_, > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello Rohini, > > > > > > Trust you are doing well. First things first - Answer to your question on syndication and further use of my comments is " No " . My comments to your " Dual Lordships " query and the one underway are strictly for the audience of this forum and I have complete faith that you will respect that. > > > > > > Now from your comments I believe you are a light hearted person infact, pretty funny and open to learning. I also do perceive you have a liking for all things complicated, which is certainly contrary to my way of thinking and will be so when compared with the people who spoke the first intelligible word and pronounced the Vedic hymns. > > > > > > To simplify matters please address me as Abhijit as most of my well wishers do. I am glad my earlier comments though didn't materially introduced anything new still helped you rediscover the knowledge within; and it is very kind of you to acknowledge that. > > > > > > Now, I have to disagree with the mystical framework aspect of your comment. If we really want astrology to be accepted as a science universally then it has to be based on practical framework, which astrology is, primarily driven by logic, numbers and facts drawn from observation of the seers who were people like you an me - may be with a little more awe, curiosity and humility than we posses today. Vedic people were very practical people so mysticism has to be rooted out of this science, this is know voodoo for sure. > > > > > > If we really want to know " Vid " which is the root of Veda then we need to observe the simple things that surrounds us because that is all millennial old people had to their access. EM, Spectroscopy , quantum mechanics, Fourier transformation of EM waves all sounds fancy and may support, but none of it existed when this vedic science was scripted. All they had was Sun, light, moon, water and a curious mind to see the simple optical phenomenon called dispersion of light in their surroundings in different forms (Rainbow being one, dispersion of sun light by moon, transparent body of water etc being others). > > > > > > Also, if you take the time to read my earlier comments with a simple attitude of curiosity - keeping aside the agenda who is right or who you can trump over (just kidding) then you will see that I didn't stop at the light association being the only possible connection. I talked about the astrological facts like Rahu and Ketu's fixed disposition and Rahu's resemblance to Sani, and Ketu's to Scorpio and eighth house. I am sure with your extensive knowledge on the subject you can add to it. > > > > > > Nothing like a passionate discussion where members use simple respectful language to communicate complicated ideas and arguments. > > > Knowing you I am sure you will post a reply to this and I am looking forward to a simple train of thought which should reflect your years of experience and humility that can only be gained through being wrong in the past. > > > > > > Thank you. > > > Abhijit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Basu-Dada, > > > > > > > > Do I have your permission (please express, publicly or privately) to quote your response (without identification or attribution if you prefer it that way!) to re-initiate or at least share our exchange here, elsewhere? > > > > > > > > Your response, though sadly not at all informative to me, has had the positive effect of reminding me, contrary to what you shared, regarding Jyotish being called the exposition of LIGHT and not EM waves ;-) > > > > > > > > VERY IMPORTANT POINT! > > > > > > > > Please do feel completely assured: You shall be kept informed of where I decide to post this train of thought. I am too old to wield axes and have no need to fell trees or kill flora or fauna. I have gone " SOLAR " , if you catch my energetic drift, over the years! > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Kudos to your contribution, Basu Dada, but simply throwing in a bit of EM spectral Physics into Astro-symbolism and calling it PHYSICS perhaps may not turn it into Physics, that readily! > > > > > > > > > > VIBGYOR, while a convenient spectral association would first need to be associated with the 7 visible entities before we jump into Ultraviolet = Rahu axiom! > > > > > > > > > > R=Mars > > > > > O=Sun > > > > > Y=Jupiter > > > > > G=Mercury > > > > > B=Venus > > > > > I=? > > > > > V=Saturn? > > > > > > > > > > The above may fit to some extent the colours that are described in Jyotish associated for the planets, but there are obvious discrepancies and no correlation with the order of orbits etc! Just assuming that Ancient Rishis were looking at some beautiful Rainbow when attributing the colours to planets is too simplistic! > > > > > > > > > > It the mystical framework that is utilized by divinatory CRAFTS such as astrology and other modalities, unlike science, pretty much anything goes! One just picks a point, turns it into axiom, creates some mystery and mystique and then pretty MUCH ANYTHING GOES! > > > > > > > > > > Should this be so, when some of us INSIST on calling Astrology Science? Even those who have received scientific training, Basic, Pure or Applied? > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " abhijitbasu " <abhijitbasu@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear RR, > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is some astro physics and astrology on Rahu- > > > > > > The fact that Rahu represents ultraviolet light, which is right after violet(represented by saturn) shows Rahu is a higher octave of Saturn. Astrology of it - Rahu is an airy planet with Saturnine fixed disposition, only Aquarius fits the bill. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ketu on the other-hand though of fixed disposition as well shows both fiery and watery traits. Albeit, its similarities to Scorpio and eights house is undeniable. Like Scorpio Ketu has fixidity of approach to the extant of solid ice. The smoky/black color attributed to Ketu is also attributed to Scorpio. Rudra governing scorpio has smoky/balck color. Ketu like Scorpio and eighth house represents mysteries and secrets. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mystery solved. Chara rashis Aries(Mesha) and Capricorn(Makar) out and Fixed rashis Aquarius(Kumbh) and Scorpio (Vrishchik) in play. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna. > > > > > > Abhijit > > > > > > > > > > > > vedic astrology , " rohinicrystal " <jyotish_vani@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps in the so called " JAIMINI " framework, and more specifically in the chara dasha as described by Parashara and Jaimini Rishis, Vrishchika and Kumbha have been given dual lords: Ketu and Rahu, respectively. Very clear rules are given by both Maharshis and the recommendation does work! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But WHY did the Enlightened Ones pick the fixed signs for the dual lordhips, as opposed to the Chara Signs: Mesha and Makar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kuja = Kethu and Shani = Rahu would have worked well with the CHARA rashis too, would they not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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