Misc replies (Role of guru, spirituality, Jyotish & money)

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabodh,

 

> In fact, it is believed in Indian context that Spiritual

> Gurus will encourage " Giving " rather than " Owning " .

 

If one plucks the leaves, flowers and fruits of a small plant in one's yard and

" gives " to people, it will soon wither away. Instead, if one protects it, chases

away anyone approaching the plant for leaves or flowers or fruits and lets it

grow into a big tree, then one can " give " leaves, flowers and fruits on a much

bigger (and a more permanent) scale later on!

 

A sadguru need not be diplomatic or short-term oriented. A sadguru shows a path

where one's good karma is maximized and bad karma is minimized. It may not

always be the most straight-forward and obvious path!

 

Krishna did not teach Arjuna and Dharmaraja to give up the kingdom. He made them

fight for it, but without an attachment. A sadguru first causes the spirit of

renunciation in one, removes one's attachment and then finally teaches how to

act externally like one with attachment though internally there is no

attachment. (Of course, it is a very difficult state. One may fall now and then

to get up again and keep perfecting it.)

 

* * *

 

> Now, what I failed to understand is that why in the first

> place you discussed this matter with Your Spiritual Guru?

 

As I said below, he himself called me and gave the command. There were

happenings along those lines in later days, confirming to me the wisdom in his

words..

 

* * *

 

> I mean, How your Spiritual Guru entertain a discussion

> regarding non spiritual activity.

 

To a seeker, no activity is " non-spiritual " . With *each* action, one is

fulfilling old kaarmik debts, creating new debts, increasing/decreasing

entanglements and increasing/decreasing attachment. Each action is important.

 

If one has found a sadguru and surrendered completely, nothing is off limits.

Unlike relationship with other gurus, which is intellectual, the relationship

with spiritual guru should be that of complete surrender. Sometimes, neither

intuition nor logic can explain why guru commanded in a way.

 

Father of Jnaneshwar Maharaj was commanded after formal sannyaasa (renunciation)

by his spiritual guru to return to his wife and beget children. It was (is)

considered highly adharmik and loathsome, society looked down upon him and he

and his children suffered great insults and abuses. Nevertheless, it enabled

Jnaneshwar Maharaj and his great siblings to be born. It enabled the lila of one

the greatest saints of the last millennium. His lila was amazing and I don't

think it is over yet!

 

One having faith in guru should take guru's word as god's word and follow it, no

matter how illogical it may seem.

 

This obviously implies that one should not be in a hurry to accept someone or

the other as spiritual guru. If necessary, one can wait the whole life. As

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to say, one should test one's guru thoroughly

before accepting as spiritual guru. In my case, I accepted Manish as guru two

years after his influence started transforming me.

 

A few of my experiences with my spiritual guru were mentioned in

. Message 3481 describes a few experiences:

 

/message/3481

 

* * *

 

> " Just Give it up to forget all Jyotish and concentrate

> on Spirituality alone "

 

My guru made me focus on meditation, reading and homam early on. He made me

experience some things. As the interest in astrology dried up, he switched

gears. He told me to get back to Jyotish research. He told me I have more to do

in Jyotish. He told me I was doing with a wrong attitude earlier and so he had

to slow me down. Moreover, he has by now impressed upon me that meditation,

homam, reading scriptures etc is not the only way to do spiritual sadhana. He

impressed upon me that every action is spiritual sadhana and gives an

opportunity to improve one's internal detachment and strive for perfection.

 

At the end of the day, one has to accomplish the tasks one has signed up for

(one's " dharma " !). Spirituality does not mean running away from one's dharma.

Spirituality means being able to fulfil one's dharma with an equanimous mind,

even in the midst of a great storm.

 

* * *

 

Dear Pushya,

 

> Your spiritual guru Dr Manish Pandit is the author of a

> Jyotish book which is selling for £18.99 (approximately

> 1,300 rupees) for the past few years.

> I would like to know his opinion (and yours too if you

> would like to share) on the commercialisation of Jyotish.

 

I can ask for his response. He is travelling in India now. Meanwhile, I can

share my own humble opinion.

 

BTW, I do not (and should not) force my views and moral standards in this matter

on anyone, though I follow them religiously myself. Those who value my opinion

can consider it and others may leave it!

 

* * *

 

In my opinion, putting a price when sharing one's knowledge of Jyotish is a very

bad idea. One has access to the sacred knowledge because of some punya from

before and some connection to the knowledge. By placing a material value on it,

one is corrupting that connection and wiping off that punya. After all, if one

places a *material value* on one's association with a person, that person may be

offended and not speak to one again. If one places a material value on sacred

knowledge, how can one expect that knowledge to keep coming back to one and be

absorbed correctly?

 

On top of it, rishis and ancients cautioned against teaching such sacred

knowledge to the unworthy. The portion of bad karma received by us for giving

sacred knowledge to an unworthy person increases if we materially benefited from

that giving and more so if we benefited intentionally.

 

In my humble opinion, one is better off giving knowledge of sacred subjects

freely and/or taking whatever is voluntarily given and not placing a value on

it.

 

* * *

 

There may be cases where one has to spend money on material aspects associated

with sharing one's knowledge. If a fair value is placed strictly on the

*material* aspects, then one is not placing any value on the non-material

aspects of the knowledge.

 

When a book is published and distributed, it will cost money. When my book was

published by Sagar publications, they put a value on it based on their formulas.

By not making a single cent on it, I kept myself away from any undesirable

kaarmik transactions. In Dr Manish Pandit's case that was pointed out, his book

was published by himself in UK (and not in India) and distributed by himself.

The material costs may have been higher.

 

Due to the strength of my beliefs, I may go to extremes such as making

conferences free. I estimate the expenses (rent, tickets etc) and take a

conference up only if I can afford to pay from my own pocket in the worst case.

Then we ask for voluntary donations and I can pay from my pocket if it falls

short. However, that's just me.

 

As far as sharing knowledge is concerned, it is possible in today's times to

reach a lot of worthy students with very little overhead in terms of material

costs.

 

* * *

 

If one uses a sacred subject for living and has no other livelihood, it is more

tricky. A saattwik person may leave things to god and live whatever lifestyle is

allowed by voluntary donations. If one must charge money for Jyotish, I suggest

charging for Jyotish readings than teaching. In Jyotish readings, one is putting

one's knowledge to use to help ONE person. In teaching, one is creating a

learned person who may help MANY people later on. It is a much bigger karma and

atleast keep it pure.

 

Of course, these are my 2 cent views based on my poorva janma vaasanas

(conditioning from previous lives), upbringing, reading, thinking and internal

experience. Those who are wiser than me may feel free to reject my views.

 

* * *

 

My apologies to members, especially JyotishWritings members, for

non-astrological and philosophical mails.

 

Jupiter (19Aq55) is still within a couple of degrees from my natal Rahu

(18Aq08). I am perhaps in the process of clearing things and all these questions

are coming up. As Jupiter pushes ahead, I expect to completely focus on

technical matters again. I have several more interesting researches to share. I

was (am) focused on simple, verifiable and quantitative Jyotish methods derived

from the teachings of rishis and appropriate for our times. I shared some and

some more are pending. But this seems like time to clarify (Jupiter) philosophy

and disentangle (Jupiter) the entanglements of karma (Rahu).

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

-

Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

" Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

Spirituality:

Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

-

 

vedic astrology , " pushyapushya " <pushya wrote:

>

> Dear Mr PVR,

>

> Your spiritual guru Dr Manish Pandit is the author of a Jyotish book which is

selling for £18.99 (approximately 1,300 rupees) for the past few years.

Accordingly to his website, he has plans for a second follow-up book.

>

> In your message 118875 in this (vedic astrology) , you wrote that he

forbid you from transferring ownership of Jhora. One of the reasons he gave you

in July 2009 was " ... and eventually make it (Jhora) commercial like everything

else they are doing today " .

>

> I would like to know his opinion (and yours too if you would like to share) on

the commercialisation of Jyotish.

>

> My question is this - what is the difference in consequences, karmic or

otherwise, in selling Jyotish in the form of a book compared to other forms

(software, magazines, courses, consultations ... etc)?

>

> Your spiritual guru's opinion will be helpful for list members to judge the

moral grounds he stands on in current and future discussions on

commercialisation of all forms of Jyotish when his views are being shared in the

forums through you.

>

> His opinion will also be helpful for aspiring Jyotish software creators, book

authors and course creators in deciding whether to charge a fee.

>

> If it is okay to charge fees for Jyotish, how much to charge and where to draw

the line what fees are considered reasonable.

>

> If not, how to justify the time and effort spent from not performing a

householder's dharma *even better* by spending more time and effort on make a

living to further ensure the long term financial stability of his/her family and

loved ones.

>

> I sincerely hope he will clarify this issue once and for all.

>

> Thank you.

>

> Best Wishes,

> Pushya

 

vedic astrology , " Prabodh " <amolmandar wrote:

>

> Dear Narsimha Namaste

>

> Actually I did not want to write about all the things that you have started

against SJC Parampara and Sanjay in particular, but I was thinking on some

points which were not very clear to me and hence wanted your help. You said

regarding the first question Sanjay asked, that Your Spiritual Guru objected in

" Giving " up the ownership of JHora. Now, what I failed to understand is that why

in the first place you discussed this matter with Your Spiritual Guru? I mean,

How your Spiritual Guru entertain a discussion regarding non spiritual activity.

That to in the absence of one of the member! When You actually created JHora, I

presume,Your Spiritual Guru was no where in the picture. How a Spiritual Guru

can discuss these 'trivial' issues like ownership of Jyotish software with you

when HE was not involved in its inception?

> Secondly, How can a Spiritual Guru comment in this way about any Human

being(forget about Sanjay!) the way you said he reacted about Sanjay! At least,

in India we see that all Spiritual Gurus(I mean true Spiritual Guru) have always

preached " Giving " and have asked all their shishyas to donate. In fact, it is

believed in Indian context that Spiritual Gurus will encourage " Giving " rather

than " Owning " . But why in this case it is other way round? I mean more Indian

reaction from Your Spiritual Guru would have been something like " Just Give it

up if Sanjay says so. We will again do something better than that " Or " Just Give

it up to forget all Jyotish and concentrate on Spirituality alone "

>

> Another point is, Your Spiritual Guru seems to be great devotee of Shri

Gajanan Maharah(This is what He has mentioned in his Astrology book which I have

purchased way back from London). I have started a print magazine one year back

in Marathi Language that has over 1000 rs,in which I have discussed

many astrological things about Shri Gajanan Maharaj. I thought I will send a

copy to him. Can you help, getting me to Him?

>

> Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

>

> Prabodh Vekhande

> Jai Jai Shankar

> Har Har Shankar

>

> vedic astrology , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> >

> > Pranaam Sanjay,

> >

> > > > Let us assume that Narasimha has become completely spiritual and has

become very renounced - what do you think he will do if I ask him to transfer --

> > > > (1) Ownership of JHora to Sri Jagannath Center

> > > > (2) Ownership of this list to say ... You Raj, you can handle this list

of Jagannath. You seem to have faith in Krishna.

> >

> > I replied only to question (1) and left question (2) unanswered. I realize

that my silence might have been misunderstood and my answer to your hypothetical

question might not have been obvious.

> >

> > In case of question (1), I have a specific guidance from my spiritual guru

and I cannot disobey him. But, there is no such obstacle in the case of question

(2). I am free to do what I wish.

> >

> > If you indeed ask, I will be happy to relinquish the ownership of

vedic astrology list.

> >

> > Currently, this list is being managed by Narayan Iyer. I can ask him to

transfer it to anyone you may identify. Please let us know if you want us to do

it.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > -

> > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

> > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

> > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

> > Spirituality:

> > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > -

> >

> > vedic astrology , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Sanjay,

> > >

> > > > Let us assume that Narasimha has become completely spiritual

> > > > and has become very renounced - what do you think he will do

> > > > if I ask him to transfer --

> > > > (1) Ownership of JHora to Sri Jagannath Center

> > >

> > > If my spiritual guru asks me to do it, I will do so without batting an

eyelid. However, he has warned of this and explicitly forbade me.

> > >

> > > When I decided a few years back to make JHora open source and leave JHora

programming to others, my spiritual guru asked me to rethink.

> > >

> > > In July 2009, he suddenly told me without any context, " they are going to

try to take over Jagannatha Hora. You must stand firm and not allow that. I know

you want to get out of this, but there is more you need to do for the Jyotish

world and JHora is an important vehicle. If they take over, all your effort so

far will go waste. They will promote dogmatism, create confusion, kill research

and eventually make it commercial like everything else they are doing today. You

must stand firm. They will invoke Krishna's name, but realize that nobody owns

Krishna. I forbid you from giving away JHora to them. Own it, keep it free and

add new researches to it. "

> > >

> > > (Note: I am mentioning this publicly with the permission of my guru.)

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Very interestingly, just a few days after he said this, you wrote on the

lists, " I think the time has come when PVR Narasimha and SJC have to part ways " ,

because I had no " faith in Jagannath Mahaprabhu " .

> > >

> > > And, just a few days later, you wanted a team decided by SJC to take over

JHora and create an " SJC version " , as there were too many options in JHora. I

immediately remembered my guru's words and saw this is as the first step of what

he described.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > This was my reply to you from August 2009:

> > >

> > > " I will continue to maintain " Jagannatha Hora " software effort for some

more time.

> > >

> > > Also, Jagannatha Hora will continue to support " non-SJC " calculations and

options in the interest of the advancement of Jyotish knowledge. As I said, I

will be happy to add a menu item to apply SJC recommended settings, if you or an

SJC committee standardize the settings and send them to me via a jhora.ini file.

> > >

> > > If you or an SJC committee decide that something more is needed, I can

review the expectations and judge whether and how I can help. "

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Though addressed to someone else, I realize that the above question about

transferring the " ownership of JHora " is indirectly meant for me. But, you

already know my answer! I reproduced it above anyway.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -

> > > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

> > > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

> > > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > > -

> > >

> > > vedic astrology , " Sanjay Rath " <sjrath@> wrote:

> > > > om gurave namah

> > > > Dear Raj

> > > > When you give something to someone, who is the owner of it? You or the

person to whom you gave it?

> > > > So according to this simple logic, who is supposed to be the owner of

Jagannath Hora? If it is not Sanjay Rath, then it was never given to him.

> > > > Secondly, I don't want to make money from this software or such things,

so then what if I wish something and it is not done regarding the software, can

we say that I am even a partial owner of the software? So how is the *Guru

Dakshina?*

> > > > In view of the above, some of your statements may seem very untruthful.

In future I can only suggest that you at least get the facts right before making

statements, else you may be seen as one who is telling lies easily.

> > > >

> > > > If you think I am worried about changing of names of JHora, you are

wrong.

> > > > Now let me tell you and other list members another thing -

> > > > This Vedic Astrology list was created long time back in 1998 by

Narasimha on behalf of Sri Jagannath. Other groups were created by another old

student ran away with the SJVC websites and . One thief called

Dinanath Das. So, technically Narasimha was entrusted with the responsibility of

having public forum for Sri Jagannath Center.

> > > > Now, can you please check and tell me *who is the owner of Vedic

Astrology List*? Is this Narasimha or SJC? And if Narasimha runs away with this

list (who is to stop him?), in what way is he any different from the previous

ones who ran away with things entrusted to them?

> > > > Let us assume that Narasimha has become completely spiritual and has

become very renounced - what do you think he will do if I ask him to transfer --

> > > > (1) Ownership of JHora to Sri Jagannath Center

> > > > (2) Ownership of this list to say ... You Raj, you can handle this list

of Jagannath. You seem to have faith in Krishna.

> > > > Jaya Bharati

> > > > Regards ~

> > > > Sanjay Rath

> > > > http://srath.cpm