JHora (Misc replies (Role of guru, spirituality, Jyotish & money))

[Guest guest]

Dear Narsimha Namaste

 

> Your analogies are off the mark totally.

 

It has to be. But that has made you to think and clarify! Is it not?

 

>As you seem to be interested only in passing judgments, there is >nothing to

discuss.

 

Is it not passing judgments from your side? Really speaking, What are you

'discussing' now a days?

 

> Thus, this is not a case of a clear father, mother and seed as you >make it

out to be.

 

Why should I 'Make ' out something? How do I know that Sanjay is not clear

father? The very term 'clear father' is capable of arousing interest or

curiosity in the minds of many! Whether you met Sanjay after you started coding

for your s/w or you met Sanjay before that is known to you and Sanjay. Common

perception is that Sanjay asked you to write a s/w for his teachings. At least,

I dont remember you making it clear earlier about your jyotish s/w passion prior

to you met with Sanjay. Now since you have made it clear, everybody knows the

truth. Moreover Sanjay has not said about your Timing of meeting, so I presume

that you are telling the truth. After knowing this, if I continue to say that

Sanjay is Father then possibly you can accuse me of 'Making' story.

 

As things are clear regarding history of JHora, nothing can be said about its

ownership. You can decide about it.

 

Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

 

Prabodh Vekhande

Jai Jai Shankar

Har Har Shankar

 

 

 

 

 

 

vedic astrology , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Prabodh,

>

> Your analogies are off the mark totally. As you seem to be interested only in

passing judgments, there is nothing to discuss.

>

> However, let me clarify one misconception about the history of JHora.

>

> I had coded an astrology software long before I met Sanjay ji. For the record,

as my website said for a long time, I consider my father Sri PVS Chalapathi Rao

and Dr Raman, from whose books I learnt, as my first two gurus in Jyotish. I

read Sri KN Rao's books and started to experiment with divisional charts, Yogini

dasa, Chara dasa, arudha padas, chara karakas etc, by the time I met Sanjay ji.

I had many of those in my software already.

>

> After becoming Sanjay ji's student, I changed some calculations (arudha padas,

chara karakas etc), added some calculations based on his teachings (Narayana

dasa, Moola dasa, TP etc), named it JHora, packaged the software for commercial

sale and started selling one version as per his wish and freely giving a Lite

version. In the years that followed, Sanjay ji taught more dasas and more

points, which were added to the software. After a few years with him, I turned

back to Parasara and started researching by myself. A lot of my own research and

teachings of Parasara as interpreted by me got into JHora with time.

>

> Thus, this is not a case of a clear father, mother and seed as you make it out

to be. While I cannot deny an influence of Sanjay ji's teachings on JHora, that

was not the seed of JHora. JHora was a small plant even before Sanjay ji

arrived. Moreover, JHora is a product of many influences. Though Sanjay ji at

one point asked me to remove KP, for example, I intentionally kept support for

various views in JHora.

>

> BTW, my spiritual guru has not replaced Sanjay ji. His role is totally

different.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

> -

> Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

> " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

> http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

> Spirituality:

> Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> -

>

> vedic astrology , " Prabodh " <amolmandar@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Narsimha Namaste

> >

> > > If one plucks the leaves, flowers and fruits of a small plant in >one's

yard and " gives " to people,.....

> >

> > But what about the Beeja! Sanjay gave you the Beeja(I think you should not

deny that!) and utilized your Kshetra. That makes Sanjay Father and You become

Mother of JHora! So the ownership of JHora is a matter between Mother and

Father. Now, the twist in the story is that after the divorced, the Mother of

JHora finds another Father! In between, Father of JHora puts up a request for

his child's custody since it is not question of his right but also the duty to

see welfare of his child.

> >

> > Mother of the child is ready to give the custody but the new father gets

attracted towards the beauty of the child! The new father wants to get

associated with the child as well. Don't we see similar situation happening with

GURu-CHandra-Budha few centuries back with some changes in the role of

characters! In the original story, GuruPatni eloped with Chandra but in this

case Chandra Patni eloped with Guru! In the original story, in-spite of

Gurupatni's confession, Guru still claimed the ownership over Budha as he liked

Budha very much. Here as well Guru is claiming the ownership over Budha(Software

is in Budha domain!). In the original story Guru was kind enough to give all his

knowledge to Budha but in this case it seems Guru is not

> > willing to give anything to Budha(S/W) but still wants to retain it. The

Chandra(Sanjay is Atri Gotra) has no other option but to go to Himalayas(Sanjay

has Chandra in Kumbha!) to GIVE Sutras(He has Ketu with his UL!).

> >

> >

> > >Father of Jnaneshwar Maharaj was commanded after formal sannyaasa

>(renunciation).....

> >

> > See again, role and actions are reversed in your case!

> >

> > >A sadguru need not be diplomatic or short-term oriented.

> >

> > I think it will be wise to leave it to sadguru to comment on this. I still

wonder why we have to talk to your sadguru through you? I mean we have no ways

to confirm whatever you claimed to have happened between you and your sadguru.

As you said, we have no means to confirm what Sanjay says as parampara since

there is no other person who can confim Sanjay's claims. Same is the case with

you! Interesting! Is it Not?

> >

> > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

> >

> > Prabodh Vekhande

> > Jai Jai Shankar

> > Har Har Shankar

> > vedic astrology , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Prabodh,

> > >

> > > > In fact, it is believed in Indian context that Spiritual

> > > > Gurus will encourage " Giving " rather than " Owning " .

> > >

> > > If one plucks the leaves, flowers and fruits of a small plant in one's

yard and " gives " to people, it will soon wither away. Instead, if one protects

it, chases away anyone approaching the plant for leaves or flowers or fruits and

lets it grow into a big tree, then one can " give " leaves, flowers and fruits on

a much bigger (and a more permanent) scale later on!

> > >

> > > A sadguru need not be diplomatic or short-term oriented. A sadguru shows a

path where one's good karma is maximized and bad karma is minimized. It may not

always be the most straight-forward and obvious path!

> > >

> > > Krishna did not teach Arjuna and Dharmaraja to give up the kingdom. He

made them fight for it, but without an attachment. A sadguru first causes the

spirit of renunciation in one, removes one's attachment and then finally teaches

how to act externally like one with attachment though internally there is no

attachment. (Of course, it is a very difficult state. One may fall now and then

to get up again and keep perfecting it.)

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > > Now, what I failed to understand is that why in the first

> > > > place you discussed this matter with Your Spiritual Guru?

> > >

> > > As I said below, he himself called me and gave the command. There were

happenings along those lines in later days, confirming to me the wisdom in his

words..

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > > I mean, How your Spiritual Guru entertain a discussion

> > > > regarding non spiritual activity.

> > >

> > > To a seeker, no activity is " non-spiritual " . With *each* action, one is

fulfilling old kaarmik debts, creating new debts, increasing/decreasing

entanglements and increasing/decreasing attachment. Each action is important.

> > >

> > > If one has found a sadguru and surrendered completely, nothing is off

limits. Unlike relationship with other gurus, which is intellectual, the

relationship with spiritual guru should be that of complete surrender.

Sometimes, neither intuition nor logic can explain why guru commanded in a way.

> > >

> > > Father of Jnaneshwar Maharaj was commanded after formal sannyaasa

(renunciation) by his spiritual guru to return to his wife and beget children.

It was (is) considered highly adharmik and loathsome, society looked down upon

him and he and his children suffered great insults and abuses. Nevertheless, it

enabled Jnaneshwar Maharaj and his great siblings to be born. It enabled the

lila of one the greatest saints of the last millennium. His lila was amazing and

I don't think it is over yet!

> > >

> > > One having faith in guru should take guru's word as god's word and follow

it, no matter how illogical it may seem.

> > >

> > > This obviously implies that one should not be in a hurry to accept someone

or the other as spiritual guru. If necessary, one can wait the whole life. As

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa used to say, one should test one's guru thoroughly

before accepting as spiritual guru. In my case, I accepted Manish as guru two

years after his influence started transforming me.

> > >

> > > A few of my experiences with my spiritual guru were mentioned in

. Message 3481 describes a few experiences:

> > >

> > > /message/3481

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > > " Just Give it up to forget all Jyotish and concentrate

> > > > on Spirituality alone "

> > >

> > > My guru made me focus on meditation, reading and homam early on. He made

me experience some things. As the interest in astrology dried up, he switched

gears. He told me to get back to Jyotish research. He told me I have more to do

in Jyotish. He told me I was doing with a wrong attitude earlier and so he had

to slow me down. Moreover, he has by now impressed upon me that meditation,

homam, reading scriptures etc is not the only way to do spiritual sadhana. He

impressed upon me that every action is spiritual sadhana and gives an

opportunity to improve one's internal detachment and strive for perfection.

> > >

> > > At the end of the day, one has to accomplish the tasks one has signed up

for (one's " dharma " !). Spirituality does not mean running away from one's

dharma. Spirituality means being able to fulfil one's dharma with an equanimous

mind, even in the midst of a great storm.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Dear Pushya,

> > >

> > > > Your spiritual guru Dr Manish Pandit is the author of a

> > > > Jyotish book which is selling for £18.99 (approximately

> > > > 1,300 rupees) for the past few years.

> > > > I would like to know his opinion (and yours too if you

> > > > would like to share) on the commercialisation of Jyotish.

> > >

> > > I can ask for his response. He is travelling in India now. Meanwhile, I

can share my own humble opinion.

> > >

> > > BTW, I do not (and should not) force my views and moral standards in this

matter on anyone, though I follow them religiously myself. Those who value my

opinion can consider it and others may leave it!

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > In my opinion, putting a price when sharing one's knowledge of Jyotish is

a very bad idea. One has access to the sacred knowledge because of some punya

from before and some connection to the knowledge. By placing a material value on

it, one is corrupting that connection and wiping off that punya. After all, if

one places a *material value* on one's association with a person, that person

may be offended and not speak to one again. If one places a material value on

sacred knowledge, how can one expect that knowledge to keep coming back to one

and be absorbed correctly?

> > >

> > > On top of it, rishis and ancients cautioned against teaching such sacred

knowledge to the unworthy. The portion of bad karma received by us for giving

sacred knowledge to an unworthy person increases if we materially benefited from

that giving and more so if we benefited intentionally.

> > >

> > > In my humble opinion, one is better off giving knowledge of sacred

subjects freely and/or taking whatever is voluntarily given and not placing a

value on it.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > There may be cases where one has to spend money on material aspects

associated with sharing one's knowledge. If a fair value is placed strictly on

the *material* aspects, then one is not placing any value on the non-material

aspects of the knowledge.

> > >

> > > When a book is published and distributed, it will cost money. When my book

was published by Sagar publications, they put a value on it based on their

formulas. By not making a single cent on it, I kept myself away from any

undesirable kaarmik transactions. In Dr Manish Pandit's case that was pointed

out, his book was published by himself in UK (and not in India) and distributed

by himself. The material costs may have been higher.

> > >

> > > Due to the strength of my beliefs, I may go to extremes such as making

conferences free. I estimate the expenses (rent, tickets etc) and take a

conference up only if I can afford to pay from my own pocket in the worst case.

Then we ask for voluntary donations and I can pay from my pocket if it falls

short. However, that's just me.

> > >

> > > As far as sharing knowledge is concerned, it is possible in today's times

to reach a lot of worthy students with very little overhead in terms of material

costs.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > If one uses a sacred subject for living and has no other livelihood, it is

more tricky. A saattwik person may leave things to god and live whatever

lifestyle is allowed by voluntary donations. If one must charge money for

Jyotish, I suggest charging for Jyotish readings than teaching. In Jyotish

readings, one is putting one's knowledge to use to help ONE person. In teaching,

one is creating a learned person who may help MANY people later on. It is a much

bigger karma and atleast keep it pure.

> > >

> > > Of course, these are my 2 cent views based on my poorva janma vaasanas

(conditioning from previous lives), upbringing, reading, thinking and internal

experience. Those who are wiser than me may feel free to reject my views.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > My apologies to members, especially JyotishWritings members, for

non-astrological and philosophical mails.

> > >

> > > Jupiter (19Aq55) is still within a couple of degrees from my natal Rahu

(18Aq08). I am perhaps in the process of clearing things and all these questions

are coming up. As Jupiter pushes ahead, I expect to completely focus on

technical matters again. I have several more interesting researches to share. I

was (am) focused on simple, verifiable and quantitative Jyotish methods derived

from the teachings of rishis and appropriate for our times. I shared some and

some more are pending. But this seems like time to clarify (Jupiter) philosophy

and disentangle (Jupiter) the entanglements of karma (Rahu).

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -

> > > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

> > > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

> > > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > > -

> > >

> > > vedic astrology , " pushyapushya " <pushya@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Mr PVR,

> > > >

> > > > Your spiritual guru Dr Manish Pandit is the author of a Jyotish book

which is selling for £18.99 (approximately 1,300 rupees) for the past few

years. Accordingly to his website, he has plans for a second follow-up book.

> > > >

> > > > In your message 118875 in this (vedic astrology) , you wrote

that he forbid you from transferring ownership of Jhora. One of the reasons he

gave you in July 2009 was " ... and eventually make it (Jhora) commercial like

everything else they are doing today " .

> > > >

> > > > I would like to know his opinion (and yours too if you would like to

share) on the commercialisation of Jyotish.

> > > >

> > > > My question is this - what is the difference in consequences, karmic or

otherwise, in selling Jyotish in the form of a book compared to other forms

(software, magazines, courses, consultations ... etc)?

> > > >

> > > > Your spiritual guru's opinion will be helpful for list members to judge

the moral grounds he stands on in current and future discussions on

commercialisation of all forms of Jyotish when his views are being shared in the

forums through you.

> > > >

> > > > His opinion will also be helpful for aspiring Jyotish software creators,

book authors and course creators in deciding whether to charge a fee.

> > > >

> > > > If it is okay to charge fees for Jyotish, how much to charge and where

to draw the line what fees are considered reasonable.

> > > >

> > > > If not, how to justify the time and effort spent from not performing a

householder's dharma *even better* by spending more time and effort on make a

living to further ensure the long term financial stability of his/her family and

loved ones.

> > > >

> > > > I sincerely hope he will clarify this issue once and for all.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you.

> > > >

> > > > Best Wishes,

> > > > Pushya

> > >

> > > vedic astrology , " Prabodh " <amolmandar@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Narsimha Namaste

> > > >

> > > > Actually I did not want to write about all the things that you have

started against SJC Parampara and Sanjay in particular, but I was thinking on

some points which were not very clear to me and hence wanted your help. You said

regarding the first question Sanjay asked, that Your Spiritual Guru objected in

" Giving " up the ownership of JHora. Now, what I failed to understand is that why

in the first place you discussed this matter with Your Spiritual Guru? I mean,

How your Spiritual Guru entertain a discussion regarding non spiritual activity.

That to in the absence of one of the member! When You actually created JHora, I

presume,Your Spiritual Guru was no where in the picture. How a Spiritual Guru

can discuss these 'trivial' issues like ownership of Jyotish software with you

when HE was not involved in its inception?

> > > > Secondly, How can a Spiritual Guru comment in this way about any Human

being(forget about Sanjay!) the way you said he reacted about Sanjay! At least,

in India we see that all Spiritual Gurus(I mean true Spiritual Guru) have always

preached " Giving " and have asked all their shishyas to donate. In fact, it is

believed in Indian context that Spiritual Gurus will encourage " Giving " rather

than " Owning " . But why in this case it is other way round? I mean more Indian

reaction from Your Spiritual Guru would have been something like " Just Give it

up if Sanjay says so. We will again do something better than that " Or " Just Give

it up to forget all Jyotish and concentrate on Spirituality alone "

> > > >

> > > > Another point is, Your Spiritual Guru seems to be great devotee of Shri

Gajanan Maharah(This is what He has mentioned in his Astrology book which I have

purchased way back from London). I have started a print magazine one year back

in Marathi Language that has over 1000 rs,in which I have discussed

many astrological things about Shri Gajanan Maharaj. I thought I will send a

copy to him. Can you help, getting me to Him?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

> > > >

> > > > Prabodh Vekhande

> > > > Jai Jai Shankar

> > > > Har Har Shankar

> > > >

> > > > vedic astrology , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Pranaam Sanjay,

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Let us assume that Narasimha has become completely spiritual and

has become very renounced - what do you think he will do if I ask him to

transfer --

> > > > > > > (1) Ownership of JHora to Sri Jagannath Center

> > > > > > > (2) Ownership of this list to say ... You Raj, you can handle this

list of Jagannath. You seem to have faith in Krishna.

> > > > >

> > > > > I replied only to question (1) and left question (2) unanswered. I

realize that my silence might have been misunderstood and my answer to your

hypothetical question might not have been obvious.

> > > > >

> > > > > In case of question (1), I have a specific guidance from my spiritual

guru and I cannot disobey him. But, there is no such obstacle in the case of

question (2). I am free to do what I wish.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you indeed ask, I will be happy to relinquish the ownership of

vedic astrology list.

> > > > >

> > > > > Currently, this list is being managed by Narayan Iyer. I can ask him

to transfer it to anyone you may identify. Please let us know if you want us to

do it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > -

> > > > > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

> > > > > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

> > > > > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > > > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

> > > > > Spirituality:

> > > > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > > > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > vedic astrology , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste Sanjay,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Let us assume that Narasimha has become completely spiritual

> > > > > > > and has become very renounced - what do you think he will do

> > > > > > > if I ask him to transfer --

> > > > > > > (1) Ownership of JHora to Sri Jagannath Center

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If my spiritual guru asks me to do it, I will do so without batting

an eyelid. However, he has warned of this and explicitly forbade me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When I decided a few years back to make JHora open source and leave

JHora programming to others, my spiritual guru asked me to rethink.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In July 2009, he suddenly told me without any context, " they are

going to try to take over Jagannatha Hora. You must stand firm and not allow

that. I know you want to get out of this, but there is more you need to do for

the Jyotish world and JHora is an important vehicle. If they take over, all your

effort so far will go waste. They will promote dogmatism, create confusion, kill

research and eventually make it commercial like everything else they are doing

today. You must stand firm. They will invoke Krishna's name, but realize that

nobody owns Krishna. I forbid you from giving away JHora to them. Own it, keep

it free and add new researches to it. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (Note: I am mentioning this publicly with the permission of my

guru.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > * * *

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Very interestingly, just a few days after he said this, you wrote on

the lists, " I think the time has come when PVR Narasimha and SJC have to part

ways " , because I had no " faith in Jagannath Mahaprabhu " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And, just a few days later, you wanted a team decided by SJC to take

over JHora and create an " SJC version " , as there were too many options in JHora.

I immediately remembered my guru's words and saw this is as the first step of

what he described.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > * * *

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was my reply to you from August 2009:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I will continue to maintain " Jagannatha Hora " software effort for

some more time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, Jagannatha Hora will continue to support " non-SJC "

calculations and options in the interest of the advancement of Jyotish

knowledge. As I said, I will be happy to add a menu item to apply SJC

recommended settings, if you or an SJC committee standardize the settings and

send them to me via a jhora.ini file.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you or an SJC committee decide that something more is needed, I

can review the expectations and judge whether and how I can help. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > * * *

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Though addressed to someone else, I realize that the above question

about transferring the " ownership of JHora " is indirectly meant for me. But, you

already know my answer! I reproduced it above anyway.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > > Narasimha

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > Free Jyotish Software, Free Jyotish Lessons, Jyotish Writings,

> > > > > > " Do It Yourself " ritual manuals for short Homam and Pitri Tarpana:

> > > > > > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > > > > Films that make a difference: http://SaraswatiFilms.org

> > > > > > Spirituality:

> > > > > > Jyotish writings: JyotishWritings

> > > > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > vedic astrology , " Sanjay Rath " <sjrath@>

wrote:

> > > > > > > om gurave namah

> > > > > > > Dear Raj

> > > > > > > When you give something to someone, who is the owner of it? You or

the person to whom you gave it?

> > > > > > > So according to this simple logic, who is supposed to be the owner

of Jagannath Hora? If it is not Sanjay Rath, then it was never given to him.

> > > > > > > Secondly, I don't want to make money from this software or such

things, so then what if I wish something and it is not done regarding the

software, can we say that I am even a partial owner of the software? So how is

the *Guru Dakshina?*

> > > > > > > In view of the above, some of your statements may seem very

untruthful. In future I can only suggest that you at least get the facts right

before making statements, else you may be seen as one who is telling lies

easily.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you think I am worried about changing of names of JHora, you

are wrong.

> > > > > > > Now let me tell you and other list members another thing -

> > > > > > > This Vedic Astrology list was created long time back in 1998 by

Narasimha on behalf of Sri Jagannath. Other groups were created by another old

student ran away with the SJVC websites and . One thief called

Dinanath Das. So, technically Narasimha was entrusted with the responsibility of

having public forum for Sri Jagannath Center.

> > > > > > > Now, can you please check and tell me *who is the owner of Vedic

Astrology List*? Is this Narasimha or SJC? And if Narasimha runs away with this

list (who is to stop him?), in what way is he any different from the previous

ones who ran away with things entrusted to them?

> > > > > > > Let us assume that Narasimha has become completely spiritual and

has become very renounced - what do you think he will do if I ask him to

transfer --

> > > > > > > (1) Ownership of JHora to Sri Jagannath Center

> > > > > > > (2) Ownership of this list to say ... You Raj, you can handle this

list of Jagannath. You seem to have faith in Krishna.

> > > > > > > Jaya Bharati

> > > > > > > Regards ~

> > > > > > > Sanjay Rath

> > > > > > > http://srath.cpm

> > >

> >

>