Bhattar's sarcasm and some Qs thereof

[Guest guest]

Regarding Pitrus, I have heard a great scholar saying that they are devas belonging to Pitruloka for whom offerings are given by descendents on the day of deceased parents' thithis annually. The offering does not actually go to the deceased parents who might have either attained mukti or reborn in some yoni. I am attaching an extract from the book, "Puranic Encyclopaedia" . Pl. have a look at it. Some members may have the book. This is meant for those who do not have a copy of the book. Regards, Anbil Srinivasan

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We know that Shri Parasara Bhattar, son of Shri Kurathazhvan did not

suffer fools lightly. He was famous for his repartees which were most

often questions directed at the questioner. Such men must needs have

a well defined sense of humour. We come across such an example when

Shri Bhattar is explaining the import of the 65th name Isaanah in his

magnum opus the inimitable Bhagvad Guna Darpana a commentary on

Sahasranama.

This is what we see in the English translation of Prof. A.Srinivasa

Raghavan:

" Therefore to those who prattle that the Supreme Being is under the

influence of illusion,or of limiting adjuncts, or under-goes

transmutations, or His over—lordship omniscience and other qualities

are adventitious, thrice do I offer the oblation of handful of water

mixed with seasames (i.e. I shall consider them as non-existent and

shall have nothing to do with them). "

 

This is obviously aimed at the Mayavadins and other dysinterpreters

of the vedas. He sarcastically elevates them to the station of the

manes, pithrus. The good professor interprets thus: Bhattar does not

acknowledges their very existence. They are extinct so Bhattar offers

them til and jalam (sesame and water).

 

This brings up a reasonable query.Actually many questions.

Are the pithrus existent or not?

If they aren't, to whom do we offer tharpana monthly?

If they exist do they have form or are they " aravam " formless?

Are these forms sukshma (latent) or sthoola (patent)?

If they have forms do they have jeevathma and antharyami?

Where does the jeevathma,if present, come from?

At death the indwelling soul leaves the body and as per its karma it

either goes on to the path of darkness or on to the path of light.

Where do the pithrus come in?

Where is the pithruloka, on the dhoomadimarga or archiradi marga?

How long does the peripatetic soul stay as pithru?

can a mumukshu who attains nithyavibhuti be considered a typical

pithru?

How long does it take for the jeevathma to reach nithya vibuthi or

the lesser lokas?

What does it do in the interregnum?

Once a person dies, except for the remnant effluvium of the past

karmas, karma vasanas, the jeevathma forgets its previous birth and

the attached gothra,kula,nama etc. So why do we offer tharpana with

the full abivadhana to some thing that no longer exists?

How can the pithrus harm or benefit the living relations when the

soul itself forgets everything connected with the previous birth as

told by the Geethacharyan to Partha?

Once the jeevathma dons a new sharira, body, will it acknowledge its

past bodily relations when it forgets everything else?

Or is this whole exercise, charade is too strong a word, just an

instrument for not forgetting our ancestors?

Can some knowlegeable bhagavtha enlighten this dim witted e-mailer.

This is not kudarka, dasan is interested in comprehending the whole

concept so that the real doubters can be given a fitting reply.

Dr.S.Sundar Rajan, Trichy, 16-11-2007.

[Guest guest]

Swamins I am sorry to find the attachment I sent has not been carried with my mail on the subject. I am now giving the text of the extract mentioned in my earlier mail now your attetion. Sorry fo the trouble - commited because of technical ignorance.: - With regards, Dasan Srinivasan Extract From “Puranic Encyclopaedia” (Published by Motilal Banarsidass) :- Pitrus are a set of demigods. From Manuprajapathi, son of Brahma, were born the Saptarisis like Marici and

they in turn created the Pitrus. Besides Marici his set, many others like Virat Purana and Brahma have created Pitrs. Some Puranas state that Pirus are of daily creation. Brahma in the beginning created three sets of Pitrus with form and four with brightness making ths seven sets. The three sets of bodied pitrs are Agnisvattas, Barhisadas and Somapas and the four bright ones are Yama, Anala, Soma and Aryaman (10th Skanda, Devi Bhagavata). A quotation from Mansmriti, Sloka 194, Chapter 8. It may be seen from the text of Manusmriti. Pitrus (manes) are classified into two types: The Agniavattas and

Barhisadas. Of these, the Agnivattas do not perform Yagas and the Barhisadas are those who perform yagas. Besides these two major divisions they are classified into many other groups. . .. …. Performing a Sraddha (offering obsequial oblations to the departed) is jst a yagna. The oblations should be offered in either silver or silver cum copper pots. Visvadevas are the guardians of Pitrus. Therefore, the oblations should be offered after worshippinthe Visvadevas first and then the Pitrus and then Vishnu. SRAADDHA – The offering given to pitrus. According to Puranas, Sraaddha is a very important ceremony. Here, “pitrus” does not mean “the souls of the dead”. Pitrus belong to special class of gods. ----

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[Guest guest]

Dear All :

 

This is a Message from Sriman Anbil Srinivasan

in a sister list that might be of interest to you all.

This question comes up often . Thanks Sri SrinivAsan !

 

V.Sadagopan

 

 

 

Swamins I am sorry to find the attachment I sent has not been carried with my mail on the subject. I am now giving the text of the extract mentioned in my earlier mail now your attetion.

With regards,

Dasan Srinivasan

 

Extract From “Puranic Encyclopaedia” (Published by Motilal Banarsidass) :-

 

Pitrus are a set of demigods. From Manuprajapathi, son of Brahma, were born the Saptarisis like Marici and they in turn created the Pitrus. Besides Marici his set, many others like Virat Purana and Brahma have created Pitrs. Some Puranas state that Pirus are of daily creation. Brahma in the beginning created three sets of Pitrus with form and four with brightness making ths seven sets. The three sets of bodied pitrs are Agnisvattas, Barhisadas and Somapas and the four bright ones are Yama, Anala, Soma and Aryaman (10th Skanda, Devi Bhagavata).

A quotation from Mansmriti, Sloka 194, Chapter 8. It may be seen from the text of Manusmriti.

 

Pitrus (manes) are classified into two types: The Agniavattas and Barhisadas. Of these, the Agnivattas do not perform Yagas and the Barhisadas are those who perform yagas. Besides these two major divisions they are classified into many other groups. . .. ….

 

Performing a Sraddha (offering obsequial oblations to the departed) is just a yagna. The oblations should be offered in either silver or silver cum copper pots. Visvadevas are the guardians of Pitrus. Therefore, the oblations should be offered after worshipping the Visvadevas first and then the Pitrus and then Vishnu.

 

SRAADDHA – The offering given to pitrus. According to Puranas, Sraaddha is a very important ceremony. Here, “pitrus” does not mean “the souls of the dead”. Pitrus belong to special class of gods.

 

----

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

Dear Members :

 

This mail would be of interest to many .

 

V.Sadagopan

-

" VARADACHARI SADAGOPAN " <yennappan

<Yennappan

Friday, November 23, 2007 10:03 PM

Fwd: Fw: Fw: Re:Bhattar's sarcasm and

some Qs thereof

 

 

vaideekam , " Dr. Sadagopan " <yennappan

wrote:

 

SrI:

 

Dear Sriman Vaasu VaadhyAr Swamy :

***

Dasan,

***

Could you please help a number of our readers ,

who wonder about Sraaddham related matters :

 

1) Who are pithrus ?

*** Departed three generation father side parents.

 

2) What are their links to the departed ?

*** This is replied from my experience; there may be some

evidence or may not be:

While doing the Sapindikarnam, a manthram " ye samaanaaha samanasaha

yamaraajyea ..... theshaam sri: mayi kalpathaam "

It is instructed this manthram should be told in

raising tone i.e, in high pitch at the end.

 

Pithrus are three type or three positions :

1. Vasu Roopam 2.Rudra roopam 3. Aadhithya roopam

 

by the sound produced here the 'anma' is pushed from here

by the vibrations produced.

At the same time, the pithrus already who are in the above

three stages are there to lift this new atma from their positions.

By which the new atma is getting the Vasu position of Vasu roopam

the old pithrus are getting shifted to next position.

The third one is reaching the swargam.

 

To proove this: (or as an evidence) the manthram told while

performing the 'Go (cow)' dhaanam, the manthram is like this:

" mama pithu prethasya / maathru prethayaa: pretha logaadhu pithru

logam gachchadha: madhya vaitharani nadhi uththaranartham .... "

 

So it is proved that pretha roopi is getting the pithru roopam.

 

Then ,

the manthram told while doing the 'Paadheya dhaanam' (curd rice

bundle) the sankalpam is like this:

" mama .......... pithru logaadh swarga logam gachchatha: madhya adhva

shram nivruthyartham ..... "

So it is proved that the pithru roopi is getting the Swargam.

 

The difference between prapanna (sharanagathan) and others is:

The same anma is there in the all three roopams in the case of others

and some other deputed devada is there in the case of Prapannan.

 

This is to maintain the link for the future atmas.

***

 

3) How does PiNDam and Tilam offered to

the Pithrus reach them and satisfy them ?

 

***

A person who is having a physical body needs some food in the form

of solid or liquid (physically).

Pithrus are not in the physical form, so they don't need any physical

form of food.

But shastras are made for the convenient of human who are in the

world with physical bodies.

When one is doing his duty some other dharmam also to be protected or

maintained. So, sastram is instructing man to do Pancha yagnam daily.

The food offered for one or two swamis are coming under manushya

yagnam.

Pindams and thilam are going for Bhudha yagnam which will be given to

some cow or crow and or fishes in the pond.

 

Pindams are some sort of representation to convince the man by giving

some physical form to assume and to do with care (shradhai).

***

 

4) When some one leaves the body and

the Jeevan enters into another body ,

how is the food offered to a departed person

who was rerelated to you reach the Jeevan

experiencing its karmAs in another body ?

 

***

Jeevas are taking another body is a common verse not for brahmins,

the facility and speciality given for brahmin is the one that he can

protect their pithrus from rebirth by performing the pithru karmas.

 

If he does the karma perfectly then there is no room for this

question.

 

Even if the soul got a new body (by chance), to keep the shastram he

has to perform the karmas.

***

5) In the case of the Muktha Jeevan that

never returns again to the Karma BhUmi

after SaraNAgathy , what happens to

the Food offered in their name during

the Sraaddham ?

***

Food offered is not for the pithrus, they are getting only

satisfcation. By offering the food to a swamin with the physical

body here in this world is getting a satisfaction, by which the atma

of that swamin is getting some kind of satisfaction which can be

conveyed are shared by the pitru atma which is some where else.

 

It can be prooved, that a person can talk from world with the person

who is in the moon. It shows, that a sound wave produced here is

spreading infinitely / endlessly to all places.

Like that this satisfaction feeling also can be conveyed.

***

6) What is the relationship between

the Pithrus and the Prapanna Jeevan ,

if at all any ?

 

***

Pithrus are the representatives of Prapanna jeevas arranged by

bhagavan to maintain the shastram for the convenient of future

atma to get the link.

 

We are doing all karmas as " Sriman naarayana preethyartham "

not as " Pithru preethyartham " .

 

" Ekovishu: mahath bhudham .... bhunkthe .... avyaya: "

Vishnu himself is taking / eating all these things.

***

 

Dear Mmebers : I hope I have capyured your

questions . If there are others left out , please

ask . Let us focus on this area .

 

NamO SrI Veda PurushAya ,

V.Sadagopan

 

***

I don't know that I have conveyed the matter clearly or not.

Now a days, situation is not permitting me to answer questions with

patience.

dasan,

nvs

Extremely sorry.

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

Dear All:

 

The responses provided by Sriman Vaasu VaadhyAr

are valuable to clear number of doubts that assail us

on the subject of Pithrus , Sraddham and PrapannAs .

 

I am sure you will find these inputs useful to you .

 

NamO Sriman Narayanaya ,

V.Sadagopan

 

 

 

vaideekam , " Dr. Sadagopan " <yennappan

wrote:

 

SrI:

 

Dear Sriman Vaasu VaadhyAr Swamy :

***

Dasan,

***

Could you please help a number of our readers ,

who wonder about Sraaddham related matters :

 

1) Who are pithrus ?

*** Departed three generation father side parents.

 

2) What are their links to the departed ?

*** This is replied from my experience; there may be some

evidence or may not be:

While doing the Sapindikarnam, a manthram " ye samaanaaha samanasaha

yamaraajyea ..... theshaam sri: mayi kalpathaam "

It is instructed this manthram should be told in

raising tone i.e, in high pitch at the end.

 

Pithrus are three type or three positions :

1. Vasu Roopam 2.Rudra roopam 3. Aadhithya roopam

 

by the sound produced here the 'anma' is pushed from here

by the vibrations produced.

At the same time, the pithrus already who are in the above

three stages are there to lift this new atma from their positions.

By which the new atma is getting the Vasu position of Vasu roopam

the old pithrus are getting shifted to next position.

The third one is reaching the swargam.

 

To proove this: (or as an evidence) the manthram told while

performing the 'Go (cow)' dhaanam, the manthram is like this:

" mama pithu prethasya / maathru prethayaa: pretha logaadhu pithru

logam gachchadha: madhya vaitharani nadhi uththaranartham .... "

 

So it is proved that pretha roopi is getting the pithru roopam.

 

Then ,

the manthram told while doing the 'Paadheya dhaanam' (curd rice

bundle) the sankalpam is like this:

" mama .......... pithru logaadh swarga logam gachchatha: madhya adhva

shram nivruthyartham ..... "

So it is proved that the pithru roopi is getting the Swargam.

 

The difference between prapanna (sharanagathan) and others is:

The same anma is there in the all three roopams in the case of others

and some other deputed devada is there in the case of Prapannan.

 

This is to maintain the link for the future atmas.

***

 

3) How does PiNDam and Tilam offered to

the Pithrus reach them and satisfy them ?

 

***

A person who is having a physical body needs some food in the form

of solid or liquid (physically).

Pithrus are not in the physical form, so they don't need any physical

form of food.

But shastras are made for the convenient of human who are in the

world with physical bodies.

When one is doing his duty some other dharmam also to be protected or

maintained. So, sastram is instructing man to do Pancha yagnam daily.

The food offered for one or two swamis are coming under manushya

yagnam.

Pindams and thilam are going for Bhudha yagnam which will be given to

some cow or crow and or fishes in the pond.

 

Pindams are some sort of representation to convince the man by giving

some physical form to assume and to do with care (shradhai).

***

 

4) When some one leaves the body and

the Jeevan enters into another body ,

how is the food offered to a departed person

who was rerelated to you reach the Jeevan

experiencing its karmAs in another body ?

 

***

Jeevas are taking another body is a common verse not for brahmins,

the facility and speciality given for brahmin is the one that he can

protect their pithrus from rebirth by performing the pithru karmas.

 

If he does the karma perfectly then there is no room for this

question.

 

Even if the soul got a new body (by chance), to keep the shastram he

has to perform the karmas.

***

5) In the case of the Muktha Jeevan that

never returns again to the Karma BhUmi

after SaraNAgathy , what happens to

the Food offered in their name during

the Sraaddham ?

***

Food offered is not for the pithrus, they are getting only

satisfcation. By offering the food to a swamin with the physical

body here in this world is getting a satisfaction, by which the atma

of that swamin is getting some kind of satisfaction which can be

conveyed are shared by the pitru atma which is some where else.

 

It can be prooved, that a person can talk from world with the person

who is in the moon. It shows, that a sound wave produced here is

spreading infinitely / endlessly to all places.

Like that this satisfaction feeling also can be conveyed.

***

6) What is the relationship between

the Pithrus and the Prapanna Jeevan ,

if at all any ?

 

***

Pithrus are the representatives of Prapanna jeevas arranged by

bhagavan to maintain the shastram for the convenient of future

atma to get the link.

 

We are doing all karmas as " Sriman naarayana preethyartham "

not as " Pithru preethyartham " .

 

" Ekovishu: mahath bhudham .... bhunkthe .... avyaya: "

Vishnu himself is taking / eating all these things.

***

 

Dear Mmebers : I hope I have capyured your

questions . If there are others left out , please

ask . Let us focus on this area .

 

NamO SrI Veda PurushAya ,

V.Sadagopan

 

***

I don't know that I have conveyed the matter clearly or not.

Now a days, situation is not permitting me to answer questions with

patience.

dasan,

nvs

Extremely sorry.

 

--- End forwarded message ---