Guest guest Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 SrI: Dear Sriman VenkatakrishNan & Sriman Siva Iyer : Thanks very much for posting this important article . It provides focus on an important area . Sri Ahobila Matam and Sri Andavan Aasramam are training these future scholars with not only sampradhAyic knowledge but also modern skills ( Computer skills) that could increase their employabilty in the main stream as well , while rooted in their Vedic Training . I am sure that other AchAryAs are giving serious thoughts to this difficult situation . Our young girls want to run as far as possible from qualified Vaidhika bachelors with tufts (Sikhai) and who can not take them to the movies & restaurants . I know one Bruhaspathy , who has fully trained his son in performing all the Vaidhika Kaaryams , while sending him to school to earn a Technical degree from an IIT . His other son is staying in a classical Veda PaatasAla . These are real problems needing real and creative solutions . V.Sadagopan - venkata krishnan B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN. website www.vedascience.com--- On Mon, 9/29/08, V.M.Ramkumar <vmrk.74 wrote: Monday, September 29, 2008, 2:17 PM Thought provoking fact in our life........ ...... Who will marry our priests ? The other day, I had been to a VEDA_PAATHASHAALA in Kerala, where they impart VEDIC education in the four Vedas, esp the YAJURVEDA, with the prime objective of creating highly trained priests and trained VEDIC chanters for conduct of various Hindu functions and rituals. As a NRI, and also a trained YAJURVEDI myself, I find lots of peace and solace whenever I'm able to give back to such great institutions providing the priests of our great religion who are important cogs of our faith, without whom we would all be lost. I was impressed at the number of young men training enthusiastically in the Vedas and the chief old priest welcomed my modest donation. And then he added with a wry smile. NRI Hindus like you and other well to do Hindus in India come here and give us lots of money and resources for our Vedic school and we are no doubt indebted to them. BUT NOBODY GIVES US GIRLS IN MARRIAGE FOR ALL THIS ELIGIBLE YOUNG MEN HERE, EVEN THE HIGHEST QUALIFIED PRIESTS..WHY? ? AREN"T THESE YOUNG MEN NOT GOOD AS ANY DOCTOR OR LAWYER OUT THERE BY VIRTUE OF EXCELLING IN THE VEDAS, THE ENGINE OF OUR HINDU CULTURE. WHY DOES OUR SOCIETY GIVE THESE YOUNG MEN SECONDARY STATUS AND LOOK DOWN UPON THEIR PROFESSION?? , the old priest asked and set me thinking. YES: THE OLD PRIEST WAS VERY RIGHT. WE DO NOT WANT OUR SISTERS/DAUGHTERS TO GET MARRIED TO ANY PRIEST EVEN IF THE PRIEST IS WELL QUALIFIED IN THE VEDAS AND EVEN HAS GOOD INCOME. EVEN YOUNG HINDU GIRLS, MESMERIZED BY WESTERN VALUES AND FASHION DO NOT WANT TO MARRY PRIESTS... WHY??? And immediately my thoughts went to their counterparts in other religions and what I see is this: THE MULLAH, THE RABBI, THE FATHER, HAVE GOT MUCH MUCH BETTER STATUS IN THEIR SOCIETIES AND CIRCLES THAN OUR HINDU PRIESTS. MANY OF THE MUSLIMS FEEL THAT IT IS THE HIGHEST HONOR IF THEIR DAUGHTERS/SISTERS COULD GET NIKAAH WITH A MAULVI WELL VERSED IN THE KORAN. And here I mention my encounter with a multimillionaire Jewish business from Australia (where I live) proudly sending his two sons to Israel to get trained in a Jewish Seminary where they could choose to become highly qualified rabbis, should they deem so. I then asked this businessman as to whether he would have any objections if his sons became Rabbis instead of joining him in his business or taking up other-so-called- made-it occupations. For this the businessman replied without hesitation: I WILL BE THE MOST FORTUNATE FATHER IF MY SONS BECOME QUALIFIED RABBIS." And then I wondered: HOW MANY RICH HINDUS WILLINGLY SEND THEIR SONS TO VEDA PAATHASHAALAS WITH THE SOLE INTENTION OF MAKING THEM PRIESTS??? THE ANSWER: ZILCH... AND THIS IS A MATTER OF GREAT SHAME FOR ALL HINDUS. AND WE TALK OF SURVIVAL OF HINDUISM IN BHARAT WHEN WE DO NOT GIVE A DAMN FOR EVEN OUR GENUINELY WELL QUALIFIED PRIESTS???? MASTERING THE VEDAS IS AS PROFOUND AND EVEN HIGHER THAN BECOMING A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER OR A SCIENTIST... THERE IS AN IRONIC SIGN IN Udupi AND IT READS: HERE PRIESTS AND COOKS CAN NEVER GET MARRIED!!! SHIVA IYER, om.sriguru (AT) gmail (DOT) com 260908 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 srimathE rAmAnujAya nama: srimathE varavaramunayE nama: sri aNNan tiruvadigaLE sharaNam An interesting topic indeed. One of the major root cause is the 'Astika nAstikAs'. mAmunigaL says in one of the pAsurams that one should treat 'Astika nAstikAs' no worse than a nAstika i.e both being thoroughly stupid, notorious and dangerous. These 'Astika nAstikAs' adorn 12 TirumaNs during important functions and come in grand dothis to appear as great scholars. But, they are totally hopeless and zero in AchAra anushtAnams. They don't follow shAstrAs, nor know any penny worth in the vEdAs / vedAntAs, praBandAs or pUrvAchArya granthas. No faith / mahavishwAsam towards either the supreme or their AchAryAs. These people see only pride in claiming that they are born as brahmins. They don't even indulge in any kainkaryams. They do only parihArams under the pretext of dharmam for their own developments. They eat onion / garlic / drumstick and all types of food that are not bhagavad / bhAgavada prasadam. Some even don't perform shrArdhams. They don't have the guts to have a shikai even after their retirement. They are so proud of their gray hair indeed appearing in style. They do all these under the name of alignment with the modern trend / world. What they don't understand or realise is that this so called educational system, law and order, judicial system, parliament system, economy every thing was implanted by westerners in order to destroy the rich knowledge that our lineage possesses. They fall as a prey to the western culture, science and knowledge which is grossly immature, inadequate, insufficient, and incorrigible. Worst of this is the inclination towards the intolerable cinemas and the Television nonsenses. And the worst news is, unfortunately, such 'Astika nAstikAs' are more than 95% in the society. Such people, grow their children the same way. They grow their daughters adorning them with sleeveless shirts and tight jeans and pamper them will all obscurities under the name of luxuries / trend. Girls come to temples in salvars and boys come in pants. It is absolutely a shame, but who cares. As vEdAs say, vEdAs fear when it falls in the hands of those who don't know how to use them. The result is that the vEdic knowledge which is the supreme most from all perspectives, has started disappearing. Unless a conscious effort is made by every person who claims to be a sincere believer of vEdAs, nothing can be done. Everyone has a notion that the world is like this - without money nothing could be done. 'Try being a sincere follower of vEdic tradition, you won't have money for the food for the day' is what everyone sarcastically say. While I laugh at such accusations, I have an interesting point to make. Think about 'every organism' in the world other than human beings. Who is feeding them? Do they earn money and save? Don't they eat, give birth to their kids, grow them till an adult, and then die? How is that possible in all the terrestrial, aquatic and arial beings other than the human? Which means, the supreme lord has provided everything for us to live. We don't have to make ourselves go through the nonsense of modern trend to live our basic life. More than the non believers, it is we who claim ourselves to be believers(?), who, under the name of livelihood, are consciously corrupting the vedic society and creating an irrepairable damage to the vedic knowledge and thus to the entire society/world/universe itself. May be it is time to think and get into action instead of expecting some magic or some incarnation of the lord to come and clean. It is a shame to expect the lord to come and do the cleanup while He has given all the ability for us to do it ourselves. mudalvanai chindiyAda appAvakArigaLai padaittavan enganam padaittAnkolO? adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan lakshmi narasimhan , " Dr.V.Sadagopan " <yennappan wrote: > > SrI: > > Dear Sriman VenkatakrishNan & Sriman Siva Iyer : > > Thanks very much for posting this important article . > It provides focus on an important area . Sri Ahobila Matam > and Sri Andavan Aasramam are training these future scholars > with not only sampradhAyic knowledge but also modern skills > ( Computer skills) that could increase their employabilty > in the main stream as well , while rooted in their > Vedic Training . I am sure that other AchAryAs are giving > serious thoughts to this difficult situation . Our young girls > want to run as far as possible from qualified Vaidhika > bachelors with tufts (Sikhai) and who can not take them to > the movies & restaurants . > > I know one Bruhaspathy , who has fully trained his son > in performing all the Vaidhika Kaaryams , while sending > him to school to earn a Technical degree from an IIT . > His other son is staying in a classical Veda PaatasAla . > > These are real problems needing real and creative solutions . > > V.Sadagopan > - > venkata krishnan > > > > B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN. > website www.vedascience.com > > --- On Mon, 9/29/08, V.M.Ramkumar <vmrk.74 wrote: > > Monday, September 29, 2008, 2:17 PM > > > Thought provoking fact in our life........ ...... > > > > > Who will marry our priests ? > > The other day, I had been to a VEDA_PAATHASHAALA in Kerala, where they impart VEDIC education in the four Vedas, esp the YAJURVEDA, with the prime objective of creating highly trained priests and trained VEDIC chanters for conduct of various Hindu functions and rituals. > > > As a NRI, and also a trained YAJURVEDI myself, I find lots of peace and solace whenever I'm able to give back to such great institutions providing the priests of our great religion who are important cogs of our faith, without whom we would all be lost. > > > I was impressed at the number of young men training enthusiastically in the Vedas and the chief old priest welcomed my modest donation. And then he added with a wry smile. > > > NRI Hindus like you and other well to do Hindus in India come here and give us lots of money and resources for our Vedic school and we are no doubt indebted to them. BUT NOBODY GIVES US GIRLS IN MARRIAGE FOR ALL THIS ELIGIBLE YOUNG MEN HERE, EVEN THE HIGHEST QUALIFIED PRIESTS..WHY? ? AREN " T THESE YOUNG MEN NOT GOOD AS ANY DOCTOR OR LAWYER OUT THERE BY VIRTUE OF EXCELLING IN THE VEDAS, THE ENGINE OF OUR HINDU CULTURE. WHY DOES OUR SOCIETY GIVE THESE YOUNG MEN SECONDARY STATUS AND LOOK DOWN UPON THEIR PROFESSION?? , the old priest asked and set me thinking. > > > YES: THE OLD PRIEST WAS VERY RIGHT. WE DO NOT WANT OUR SISTERS/DAUGHTERS TO GET MARRIED TO ANY PRIEST EVEN IF THE PRIEST IS WELL QUALIFIED IN THE VEDAS AND EVEN HAS GOOD INCOME. > EVEN YOUNG HINDU GIRLS, MESMERIZED BY WESTERN VALUES AND FASHION DO NOT WANT TO MARRY PRIESTS... WHY??? > > > And immediately my thoughts went to their counterparts in other religions > and what I see is this: > > > THE MULLAH, THE RABBI, THE FATHER, HAVE GOT MUCH MUCH BETTER STATUS IN THEIR SOCIETIES AND CIRCLES THAN OUR HINDU PRIESTS. MANY OF THE MUSLIMS FEEL THAT IT IS THE HIGHEST HONOR IF THEIR DAUGHTERS/SISTERS COULD GET NIKAAH WITH A MAULVI WELL VERSED IN THE KORAN. > > > And here I mention my encounter with a multimillionaire Jewish business from Australia (where I live) proudly sending his two sons to Israel to get trained in a Jewish Seminary where they could choose to become highly qualified rabbis, should they deem so. I then asked this businessman as to whether he would have any objections if his sons became Rabbis instead of joining him in his business or taking up other-so-called- made-it occupations. For this the businessman replied without hesitation: I WILL BE THE MOST FORTUNATE FATHER IF MY SONS BECOME QUALIFIED RABBIS. " > > > And then I wondered: HOW MANY RICH HINDUS WILLINGLY SEND THEIR SONS TO VEDA PAATHASHAALAS WITH THE SOLE INTENTION OF MAKING THEM PRIESTS??? > THE ANSWER: ZILCH... AND THIS IS A MATTER OF GREAT SHAME FOR ALL HINDUS. > > > AND WE TALK OF SURVIVAL OF HINDUISM IN BHARAT WHEN WE DO NOT GIVE A DAMN FOR EVEN OUR GENUINELY WELL QUALIFIED PRIESTS???? > > > MASTERING THE VEDAS IS AS PROFOUND AND EVEN HIGHER THAN BECOMING A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER OR A SCIENTIST... > > > THERE IS AN IRONIC SIGN IN Udupi AND IT READS: > > > HERE PRIESTS AND COOKS CAN NEVER GET MARRIED!!! > > > SHIVA IYER, om.sriguru (AT) gmail (DOT) com > 260908 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 The Article is really good, can anyone in the group tell me where they teach Vedas for non brahmin, shiva iyer has mentioned that jewish businessman was so happy since his son willing to become rabbis,in christian and muslim religion there is no obstacle stating only few people can read the holy books, but in hindu religion, except brahmin no one is able to read vedas, i know many people who are following acharyam and anustanam but they are not able to read vedas because they are non brahmin, i also see a lot of people not following acharyam and aunstanam and they are able to read vedas because they are brahmin, tell me who is brahmin and who is non-brahmin, u cannot seperate people by birth, is anyone in the group can reply to this article why there is a seperation, first try to clear the stupid sentiments what we are following, if vedas are teached to everyone, i am sure that there will be a lot of people will be interested to become priest, including me, so stop talking about other religion, let us clean ourselves, i expect shiva iyer and lakshminrusimhan to give reply to the question. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- v.lakshminrusimhan <v.lakshminrusimhan Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:02 PM [sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ? ramanuja srimathE rAmAnujAya nama: srimathE varavaramunayE nama: sri aNNan tiruvadigaLE sharaNam An interesting topic indeed. One of the major root cause is the 'Astika nAstikAs'. mAmunigaL says in one of the pAsurams that one should treat 'Astika nAstikAs' no worse than a nAstika i.e both being thoroughly stupid, notorious and dangerous. These 'Astika nAstikAs' adorn 12 TirumaNs during important functions and come in grand dothis to appear as great scholars. But, they are totally hopeless and zero in AchAra anushtAnams. They don't follow shAstrAs, nor know any penny worth in the vEdAs / vedAntAs, praBandAs or pUrvAchArya granthas. No faith / mahavishwAsam towards either the supreme or their AchAryAs. These people see only pride in claiming that they are born as brahmins. They don't even indulge in any kainkaryams. They do only parihArams under the pretext of dharmam for their own developments. They eat onion / garlic / drumstick and all types of food that are not bhagavad / bhAgavada prasadam. Some even don't perform shrArdhams. They don't have the guts to have a shikai even after their retirement. They are so proud of their gray hair indeed appearing in style. They do all these under the name of alignment with the modern trend / world. What they don't understand or realise is that this so called educational system, law and order, judicial system, parliament system, economy every thing was implanted by westerners in order to destroy the rich knowledge that our lineage possesses. They fall as a prey to the western culture, science and knowledge which is grossly immature, inadequate, insufficient, and incorrigible. Worst of this is the inclination towards the intolerable cinemas and the Television nonsenses. And the worst news is, unfortunately, such 'Astika nAstikAs' are more than 95% in the society. Such people, grow their children the same way. They grow their daughters adorning them with sleeveless shirts and tight jeans and pamper them will all obscurities under the name of luxuries / trend. Girls come to temples in salvars and boys come in pants. It is absolutely a shame, but who cares. As vEdAs say, vEdAs fear when it falls in the hands of those who don't know how to use them. The result is that the vEdic knowledge which is the supreme most from all perspectives, has started disappearing. Unless a conscious effort is made by every person who claims to be a sincere believer of vEdAs, nothing can be done. Everyone has a notion that the world is like this - without money nothing could be done. 'Try being a sincere follower of vEdic tradition, you won't have money for the food for the day' is what everyone sarcastically say. While I laugh at such accusations, I have an interesting point to make. Think about 'every organism' in the world other than human beings. Who is feeding them? Do they earn money and save? Don't they eat, give birth to their kids, grow them till an adult, and then die? How is that possible in all the terrestrial, aquatic and arial beings other than the human? Which means, the supreme lord has provided everything for us to live. We don't have to make ourselves go through the nonsense of modern trend to live our basic life. More than the non believers, it is we who claim ourselves to be believers(?), who, under the name of livelihood, are consciously corrupting the vedic society and creating an irrepairable damage to the vedic knowledge and thus to the entire society/world/universe itself. May be it is time to think and get into action instead of expecting some magic or some incarnation of the lord to come and clean. It is a shame to expect the lord to come and do the cleanup while He has given all the ability for us to do it ourselves. mudalvanai chindiyAda appAvakArigaLai padaittavan enganam padaittAnkolO? adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan lakshmi narasimhan , " Dr.V.Sadagopan " <yennappan wrote: > > SrI: > > Dear Sriman VenkatakrishNan & Sriman Siva Iyer : > > Thanks very much for posting this important article . > It provides focus on an important area . Sri Ahobila Matam > and Sri Andavan Aasramam are training these future scholars > with not only sampradhAyic knowledge but also modern skills > ( Computer skills) that could increase their employabilty > in the main stream as well , while rooted in their > Vedic Training . I am sure that other AchAryAs are giving > serious thoughts to this difficult situation . Our young girls > want to run as far as possible from qualified Vaidhika > bachelors with tufts (Sikhai) and who can not take them to > the movies & restaurants . > > I know one Bruhaspathy , who has fully trained his son > in performing all the Vaidhika Kaaryams , while sending > him to school to earn a Technical degree from an IIT . > His other son is staying in a classical Veda PaatasAla . > > These are real problems needing real and creative solutions . > > V.Sadagopan > - > venkata krishnan > > > > B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN. > website www.vedascience.com > > --- On Mon, 9/29/08, V.M.Ramkumar <vmrk.74 wrote: > > Monday, September 29, 2008, 2:17 PM > > > Thought provoking fact in our life........ ...... > > > > > Who will marry our priests ? > > The other day, I had been to a VEDA_PAATHASHAALA in Kerala, where they impart VEDIC education in the four Vedas, esp the YAJURVEDA, with the prime objective of creating highly trained priests and trained VEDIC chanters for conduct of various Hindu functions and rituals. > > > As a NRI, and also a trained YAJURVEDI myself, I find lots of peace and solace whenever I'm able to give back to such great institutions providing the priests of our great religion who are important cogs of our faith, without whom we would all be lost. > > > I was impressed at the number of young men training enthusiastically in the Vedas and the chief old priest welcomed my modest donation. And then he added with a wry smile. > > > NRI Hindus like you and other well to do Hindus in India come here and give us lots of money and resources for our Vedic school and we are no doubt indebted to them. BUT NOBODY GIVES US GIRLS IN MARRIAGE FOR ALL THIS ELIGIBLE YOUNG MEN HERE, EVEN THE HIGHEST QUALIFIED PRIESTS..WHY? ? AREN " T THESE YOUNG MEN NOT GOOD AS ANY DOCTOR OR LAWYER OUT THERE BY VIRTUE OF EXCELLING IN THE VEDAS, THE ENGINE OF OUR HINDU CULTURE. WHY DOES OUR SOCIETY GIVE THESE YOUNG MEN SECONDARY STATUS AND LOOK DOWN UPON THEIR PROFESSION?? , the old priest asked and set me thinking. > > > YES: THE OLD PRIEST WAS VERY RIGHT. WE DO NOT WANT OUR SISTERS/DAUGHTERS TO GET MARRIED TO ANY PRIEST EVEN IF THE PRIEST IS WELL QUALIFIED IN THE VEDAS AND EVEN HAS GOOD INCOME. > EVEN YOUNG HINDU GIRLS, MESMERIZED BY WESTERN VALUES AND FASHION DO NOT WANT TO MARRY PRIESTS... WHY??? > > > And immediately my thoughts went to their counterparts in other religions > and what I see is this: > > > THE MULLAH, THE RABBI, THE FATHER, HAVE GOT MUCH MUCH BETTER STATUS IN THEIR SOCIETIES AND CIRCLES THAN OUR HINDU PRIESTS. MANY OF THE MUSLIMS FEEL THAT IT IS THE HIGHEST HONOR IF THEIR DAUGHTERS/SISTERS COULD GET NIKAAH WITH A MAULVI WELL VERSED IN THE KORAN. > > > And here I mention my encounter with a multimillionaire Jewish business from Australia (where I live) proudly sending his two sons to Israel to get trained in a Jewish Seminary where they could choose to become highly qualified rabbis, should they deem so. I then asked this businessman as to whether he would have any objections if his sons became Rabbis instead of joining him in his business or taking up other-so-called- made-it occupations. For this the businessman replied without hesitation: I WILL BE THE MOST FORTUNATE FATHER IF MY SONS BECOME QUALIFIED RABBIS. " > > > And then I wondered: HOW MANY RICH HINDUS WILLINGLY SEND THEIR SONS TO VEDA PAATHASHAALAS WITH THE SOLE INTENTION OF MAKING THEM PRIESTS??? > THE ANSWER: ZILCH... AND THIS IS A MATTER OF GREAT SHAME FOR ALL HINDUS. > > > AND WE TALK OF SURVIVAL OF HINDUISM IN BHARAT WHEN WE DO NOT GIVE A DAMN FOR EVEN OUR GENUINELY WELL QUALIFIED PRIESTS???? > > > MASTERING THE VEDAS IS AS PROFOUND AND EVEN HIGHER THAN BECOMING A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER OR A SCIENTIST... > > > THERE IS AN IRONIC SIGN IN Udupi AND IT READS: > > > HERE PRIESTS AND COOKS CAN NEVER GET MARRIED!!! > > > SHIVA IYER, om.sriguru (AT) gmail (DOT) com > 260908 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Dear Sir, Please dont use the word 'Stupid' and all. YOu can express your sentiments but not in this fashion, plese. thanks vanamamalai padmanabhan - Prabhu 26 sriguru ; v.lakshminrusimhan ; ramanuja Wednesday, October 01, 2008 5:31 PM Fwd: [sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ? The Article is really good, can anyone in the group tell me where theyteach Vedas for non brahmin, shiva iyer has mentioned that jewishbusinessman was so happy since his son willing to become rabbis,inchristian and muslim religion there is no obstacle stating only fewpeople can read the holy books, but in hindu religion, except brahminno one is able to read vedas, i know many people who are followingacharyam and anustanam but they are not able to read vedas becausethey are non brahmin, i also see a lot of people not followingacharyam and aunstanam and they are able to read vedas because theyare brahmin, tell me who is brahmin and who is non-brahmin, u cannotseperate people by birth, is anyone in the group can reply to thisarticle why there is a seperation, first try to clear the stupidsentiments what we are following, if vedas are teached to everyone, iam sure that there will be a lot of people will be interested tobecome priest, including me, so stop talking about other religion, letus clean ourselves, i expect shiva iyer and lakshminrusimhan to givereply to the question.---------- Forwarded message ----------v.lakshminrusimhan <v.lakshminrusimhan (AT) (DOT) co.in>Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:02 PM[sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ?ramanuja srimathE rAmAnujAya nama:srimathE varavaramunayE nama:sri aNNan tiruvadigaLE sharaNamAn interesting topic indeed. One of the major root cause isthe 'Astika nAstikAs'. mAmunigaL says in one of the pAsurams thatone should treat 'Astika nAstikAs' no worse than a nAstika i.e bothbeing thoroughly stupid, notorious and dangerous.These 'Astika nAstikAs' adorn 12 TirumaNs during important functionsand come in grand dothis to appear as great scholars. But, they aretotally hopeless and zero in AchAra anushtAnams. They don't followshAstrAs, nor know any penny worth in the vEdAs / vedAntAs,praBandAs or pUrvAchArya granthas. No faith / mahavishwAsam towardseither the supreme or their AchAryAs. These people see only pride inclaiming that they are born as brahmins. They don't even indulge inany kainkaryams. They do only parihArams under the pretext ofdharmam for their own developments. They eat onion / garlic /drumstick and all types of food that are not bhagavad / bhAgavadaprasadam. Some even don't perform shrArdhams. They don't have theguts to have a shikai even after their retirement. They are so proudof their gray hair indeed appearing in style. They do all theseunder the name of alignment with the modern trend / world. What theydon't understand or realise is that this so called educationalsystem, law and order, judicial system, parliament system, economyevery thing was implanted by westerners in order to destroy the richknowledge that our lineage possesses. They fall as a prey to thewestern culture, science and knowledge which is grossly immature,inadequate, insufficient, and incorrigible. Worst of this is theinclination towards the intolerable cinemas and the Televisionnonsenses.And the worst news is, unfortunately, such 'Astika nAstikAs' aremore than 95% in the society. Such people, grow their children thesame way. They grow their daughters adorning them with sleevelessshirts and tight jeans and pamper them will all obscurities underthe name of luxuries / trend. Girls come to temples in salvars andboys come in pants. It is absolutely a shame, but who cares.As vEdAs say, vEdAs fear when it falls in the hands of those whodon't know how to use them. The result is that the vEdic knowledgewhich is the supreme most from all perspectives, has starteddisappearing. Unless a conscious effort is made by every person whoclaims to be a sincere believer of vEdAs, nothing can be done.Everyone has a notion that the world is like this - without moneynothing could be done. 'Try being a sincere follower of vEdictradition, you won't have money for the food for the day' is whateveryone sarcastically say. While I laugh at such accusations, Ihave an interesting point to make. Think about 'every organism' inthe world other than human beings. Who is feeding them? Do they earnmoney and save? Don't they eat, give birth to their kids, grow themtill an adult, and then die? How is that possible in all theterrestrial, aquatic and arial beings other than the human? Whichmeans, the supreme lord has provided everything for us to live. Wedon't have to make ourselves go through the nonsense of modern trendto live our basic life. More than the non believers, it is we whoclaim ourselves to be believers(?), who, under the name oflivelihood, are consciously corrupting the vedic society andcreating an irrepairable damage to the vedic knowledge and thus tothe entire society/world/universe itself.May be it is time to think and get into action instead of expectingsome magic or some incarnation of the lord to come and clean. It isa shame to expect the lord to come and do the cleanup while He hasgiven all the ability for us to do it ourselves.mudalvanai chindiyAda appAvakArigaLai padaittavan enganampadaittAnkolO?adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan lakshmi narasimhan , "Dr.V.Sadagopan" <yennappanwrote:>> SrI:>> Dear Sriman VenkatakrishNan & Sriman Siva Iyer :>> Thanks very much for posting this important article .> It provides focus on an important area . Sri Ahobila Matam> and Sri Andavan Aasramam are training these future scholars> with not only sampradhAyic knowledge but also modern skills> ( Computer skills) that could increase their employabilty> in the main stream as well , while rooted in their> Vedic Training . I am sure that other AchAryAs are giving> serious thoughts to this difficult situation . Our young girls> want to run as far as possible from qualified Vaidhika> bachelors with tufts (Sikhai) and who can not take them to> the movies & restaurants .>> I know one Bruhaspathy , who has fully trained his son> in performing all the Vaidhika Kaaryams , while sending> him to school to earn a Technical degree from an IIT .> His other son is staying in a classical Veda PaatasAla .>> These are real problems needing real and creative solutions .>> V.Sadagopan> -> venkata krishnan>>>> B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.> website www.vedascience.com>> --- On Mon, 9/29/08, V.M.Ramkumar <vmrk.74 wrote:>> Monday, September 29, 2008, 2:17 PM>>> Thought provoking fact in our life........ ......>>>>> Who will marry our priests ?>> The other day, I had been to a VEDA_PAATHASHAALAin Kerala, where they impart VEDIC education in the four Vedas, espthe YAJURVEDA, with the prime objective of creating highly trainedpriests and trained VEDIC chanters for conduct of various Hindufunctions and rituals.>>> As a NRI, and also a trained YAJURVEDI myself, Ifind lots of peace and solace whenever I'm able to give back tosuch great institutions providing the priests of our great religionwho are important cogs of our faith, without whom we would all belost.>>> I was impressed at the number of young mentraining enthusiastically in the Vedas and the chief old priestwelcomed my modest donation. And then he added with a wry smile.>>> NRI Hindus like you and other well to do Hindus inIndia come here and give us lots of money and resources for ourVedic school and we are no doubt indebted to them. BUT NOBODY GIVESUS GIRLS IN MARRIAGE FOR ALL THIS ELIGIBLE YOUNG MEN HERE, EVEN THEHIGHEST QUALIFIED PRIESTS..WHY? ? AREN"T THESE YOUNG MEN NOT GOODAS ANY DOCTOR OR LAWYER OUT THERE BY VIRTUE OF EXCELLING IN THEVEDAS, THE ENGINE OF OUR HINDU CULTURE. WHY DOES OUR SOCIETY GIVETHESE YOUNG MEN SECONDARY STATUS AND LOOK DOWN UPON THEIRPROFESSION?? , the old priest asked and set me thinking.>>> YES: THE OLD PRIEST WAS VERY RIGHT. WE DO NOTWANT OUR SISTERS/DAUGHTERS TO GET MARRIED TO ANY PRIEST EVEN IF THEPRIEST IS WELL QUALIFIED IN THE VEDAS AND EVEN HAS GOOD INCOME.> EVEN YOUNG HINDU GIRLS, MESMERIZED BY WESTERNVALUES AND FASHION DO NOT WANT TO MARRY PRIESTS... WHY???>>> And immediately my thoughts went to theircounterparts in other religions> and what I see is this:>>> THE MULLAH, THE RABBI, THE FATHER, HAVE GOT MUCHMUCH BETTER STATUS IN THEIR SOCIETIES AND CIRCLES THAN OUR HINDUPRIESTS. MANY OF THE MUSLIMS FEEL THAT IT IS THE HIGHEST HONOR IFTHEIR DAUGHTERS/SISTERS COULD GET NIKAAH WITH A MAULVI WELL VERSEDIN THE KORAN.>>> And here I mention my encounter with amultimillionaire Jewish business from Australia (where I live)proudly sending his two sons to Israel to get trained in a JewishSeminary where they could choose to become highly qualified rabbis,should they deem so. I then asked this businessman as to whetherhe would have any objections if his sons became Rabbis instead ofjoining him in his business or taking up other-so-called- made-itoccupations. For this the businessman replied without hesitation:I WILL BE THE MOST FORTUNATE FATHER IF MY SONS BECOME QUALIFIEDRABBIS.">>> And then I wondered: HOW MANY RICH HINDUSWILLINGLY SEND THEIR SONS TO VEDA PAATHASHAALAS WITH THE SOLEINTENTION OF MAKING THEM PRIESTS???> THE ANSWER: ZILCH... AND THIS IS A MATTER OFGREAT SHAME FOR ALL HINDUS.>>> AND WE TALK OF SURVIVAL OF HINDUISM IN BHARAT WHENWE DO NOT GIVE A DAMN FOR EVEN OUR GENUINELY WELL QUALIFIEDPRIESTS????>>> MASTERING THE VEDAS IS AS PROFOUND AND EVEN HIGHERTHAN BECOMING A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER OR A SCIENTIST...>>> THERE IS AN IRONIC SIGN IN Udupi AND IT READS:>>> HERE PRIESTS AND COOKS CAN NEVER GET MARRIED!!!>>> SHIVA IYER, om.sriguru (AT) gmail (DOT) com> 260908> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2008 Report Share Posted October 4, 2008 DEAR Mr. PRABHU , I REALLY UNDERSTAND YOUR FEELINGS . HOWEVER , FOR A FOLLOWER OF SRIVAISHNAVA SAMPRADAAYAM IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A JEEVATMA TO BE BORN AS BRAHMANA TO GET MUKTHI. AS SHREEVAISHNAVA POORVAACHAARYAAS HAVE STATED , ALL JEEVAs , IRRESPECTIVE OF CASTE , CREED AND GENDER HAVE ETERNAL CONNECTION THE SUPREME LORD .AND HENCE LEARNING VEDAs IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO ATTAIN MOKSHA . THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT BELIEVE IN THRIDAIVATVAM ( BRAHMA,VISHNU & MAHESHWARA ) SUCH AS A TRUE SRIVAISHNAVA . AS PER OUR AACHAARYA RAMANUJAR , SRIVAISHNAVAs ARE THE BLESSED ONES ,WHO WILL HAVE NIRHETUKA KRIPA OF THE LORD LIKE ANY VARNA BRAHMANAs (WHOEVER BELIEVE IN THRIDAIVATVAM ). WHEN YOU HAVE DIMOND(SRIVAISHNAVAM ) ALREADY IN HAND WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT GOLD(VEDAs)? LET THE VEDAs BE WITH VARNA BRAHMANAs AND LET THEM SAVE VEDAS FOR FUTURE JEEVAs . LET THEM HAPPILY TAKE CARE OF VEDAS( IT IS A BIG RESPONSIBILITY). BE A TRUE SRIVAISHNAVA AND DONT WORRY ABOUT BECOMING A VARNA BRAMHANA . REGARDING TEACHING OF VEDAS TO NON-BRAHMINS : THIS PROBLEM IS THERE FROM MANY YEARS. EVEN PILLAI LOKAACHAARYA (A SRIVAISHNAVA AACHAARYA ) HIMSELF HAD TO FACE LOT OF TROUBLE BECAUSE HE WAS TEACHING ONE / FEW NON-BRAHMIN SHISHYAs.HE WAS ACCUSED OF VIOLATING VARNA DHARMAASHRAMA . FORTUNATELY THIS PROBLEM RESULTED IN CREATION OF A GRANTHA BY NAME " AACHAARYA HRUDAYAM" BY HIS BROTHER. IN MY OPINION , LET US NOT RAKE THIS ISSUE. LET THE AUTHORITIES OF VEDAS BE HAPPY WITH POSSESSION OF VEDAs. IN WHAT WAY IT IS GOING TO STOP US FROM ACHIEVING WHAT REALLY IS TO BE ACHIEVED(MOKSHAM) IN THIS LIFE TIME. JUST SAY " YADYATH BHAAVYAM BHAVATHU BHAGAVAN POORVA KARMAANU ROOPAM.... ( MUKUNDA MAALA). ADIYEN DAASAN KESHAVA ramanuja From: scifilvrDate: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:19:47 -0700Re: Fwd: [sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ? Sri:Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:Dear all,Adiyen was listening to the below upanyasam this morning while reading this mail.Adiyen would encourage all to please listen to it as well, as Sri U Ve Velukkudi Swami has covered this topic (at least adiyen thought it was very relevant).Talk is from Azhwar Kanda Thiruvengadamudayan, NamAzhwar pasuram explanation[101 track name ~20-minutes into talk and 102 track name first half] referring to uttara/pin vakhyam of Dwayam as expounded by Azhwar...4th 10 Eeshan Vaanavar.Please pardon any mistakes of this neechan.adiyen Ramanuja dasan Akhila Bhuvana Janma Shtema bhangadilileVinata Vividha bhuta vrata raksaika dikse,Sruti sirasi Vidipte Brahmani SrinivaseBhavatu mama parasmin semusi bhaktirupa.May knowledge transformed into intense love directed toSrinivasa, the highest Brahmam, become mine;the Being to whom creation, preservation and dissolutionof the universe is mere play, whose main resolve is to offerprotection to all those who approach Him in all humilityand sincerity, and who shines out like a beacon lightout of the pages of the scriptures Lakshmi Narasimhan Venkatapathy <v.lakshminrusimhan (AT) (DOT) co.in>sriguru ; ramanuja ; Prabhu 26 <prabhu.37 >Wednesday, October 1, 2008 9:04:06 AMRe: Fwd: [sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ? Respected Prabhu, First, you have concluded the varnashrama dharmam to be stupid sentiments which is not acceptable. To begin with, it is only because brahmins have not protected the vEdAs and that vEdAs were abused by everyone that today's state prevails. For anything and everything there needs to be protectors.. Can you go and access something confidential from the parliament or a research lab of the government or the defence ministry details? One needs to identify the path towards accessing these. Many might get disqualified due to various reasons. For example, a person suffering from short-sight is not eligible to be in military. Isn't the short-sight a birth defect? Could you ask why the government rejects people because of their short sight which came by birth? Similarly, vEdAs deal with advanced science that deal with dEvatAs which are subtle entities. One needs to be a master of the thri-guNAs and must be an embodiment of sattva guNA in order to deal with these dEvatAs. Anyone, through severe penance and austerity can attain absolute sattva guNA. This is what the rishis had done. After attaining such guNA they mastered the art of controlling these dEvatAs(vEdic knowledge). And they passed on their guNA composition to their next generations via genes.. This is how the brahmaNAs clan has come so far and became the sole owners of the vEdAs. So, brAhmaNAs by birth possess an eligibility to access these powerful dEvatAs. But that does not mean they can control them. They have to follow all the staunch practices that were followed by their ancestors. Otherwise, they would be brahmaNAs just by birth and not by practice and hence will have no powers. So, simply reading vEdAs alone will not give you anything. Nor simply being born as a brAhmaNa will help. It comes out of extreme penance or by birth + proper practice. Non brahmins could take up the former path (VishwAmitrA is an example). brAhmaNas are of 8 types - janma, kruthi, gnyana, bhakti, siddhi and 3 more that is not on top of my mind. Being a brAhmaNa by birth is just a small step. The 7 further levels are the tougher part. So, accusing brahmins to have not shared vEdAs are of no use. If one is really interested in the absolute knowledge, one must put in the corresponding efforts. A deer can't keep asking how a lion cub is born for a lion and hence will become a lion in the future that controls the deer clan. All these are based on the efforts put in the previous births. Neither should brAhmaNAs be arrogant that they are born as brahmins nor should others envy that brAhmaNAs alone have access to the vEdic knowledge in totality. After-all, all that a brAhmaNA does with the vEdic knowledge is to wish and pray for the social welfare. When someone does it free for us, why should we question or interfere in their job? I have not tried to answer your question precisely as the answer should be found by yourself through your own means. I have just explained some of the misconceptions about brahmins and have given reasons for their ownership on the vEdic knowledge. adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan lakshmi narasimhan--- On Wed, 1/10/08, Prabhu 26 <prabhu.37 > wrote: Prabhu 26 <prabhu.37 >Fwd: [sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ?sriguru , v.lakshminrusimhan (AT) (DOT) co.in, ramanuja Date: Wednesday, 1 October, 2008, 5:31 PMThe Article is really good, can anyone in the group tell me where theyteach Vedas for non brahmin, shiva iyer has mentioned that jewishbusinessman was so happy since his son willing to become rabbis,inchristian and muslim religion there is no obstacle stating only fewpeople can read the holy books, but in hindu religion, except brahminno one is able to read vedas, i know many people who are followingacharyam and anustanam but they are not able to read vedas becausethey are non brahmin, i also see a lot of people not followingacharyam and aunstanam and they are able to read vedas because theyare brahmin, tell me who is brahmin and who is non-brahmin, u cannotseperate people by birth, is anyone in the group can reply to thisarticle why there is a seperation, first try to clear the stupidsentiments what we are following, if vedas are teached to everyone, iam sure that there will be a lot of people will be interested tobecome priest, including me, so stop talking about other religion, letus clean ourselves, i expect shiva iyer and lakshminrusimhan to givereply to the question.---------- Forwarded message ----------v.lakshminrusimhan <v.lakshminrusimhan (AT) (DOT) co.in>Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:02 PM[sri ramanuja] Re: Fw: Fwd: Who will marry our priests ?ramanuja srimathE rAmAnujAya nama:srimathE varavaramunayE nama:sri aNNan tiruvadigaLE sharaNamAn interesting topic indeed. One of the major root cause isthe 'Astika nAstikAs'. mAmunigaL says in one of the pAsurams thatone should treat 'Astika nAstikAs' no worse than a nAstika i.e bothbeing thoroughly stupid, notorious and dangerous.These 'Astika nAstikAs' adorn 12 TirumaNs during important functionsand come in grand dothis to appear as great scholars. But, they aretotally hopeless and zero in AchAra anushtAnams. They don't followshAstrAs, nor know any penny worth in the vEdAs / vedAntAs,praBandAs or pUrvAchArya granthas. No faith / mahavishwAsam towardseither the supreme or their AchAryAs. These people see only pride inclaiming that they are born as brahmins. They don't even indulge inany kainkaryams. They do only parihArams under the pretext ofdharmam for their own developments. They eat onion / garlic /drumstick and all types of food that are not bhagavad / bhAgavadaprasadam. Some even don't perform shrArdhams. They don't have theguts to have a shikai even after their retirement. They are so proudof their gray hair indeed appearing in style. They do all theseunder the name of alignment with the modern trend / world. What theydon't understand or realise is that this so called educationalsystem, law and order, judicial system, parliament system, economyevery thing was implanted by westerners in order to destroy the richknowledge that our lineage possesses. They fall as a prey to thewestern culture, science and knowledge which is grossly immature,inadequate, insufficient, and incorrigible. Worst of this is theinclination towards the intolerable cinemas and the Televisionnonsenses.And the worst news is, unfortunately, such 'Astika nAstikAs' aremore than 95% in the society. Such people, grow their children thesame way. They grow their daughters adorning them with sleevelessshirts and tight jeans and pamper them will all obscurities underthe name of luxuries / trend. Girls come to temples in salvars andboys come in pants. It is absolutely a shame, but who cares.As vEdAs say, vEdAs fear when it falls in the hands of those whodon't know how to use them. The result is that the vEdic knowledgewhich is the supreme most from all perspectives, has starteddisappearing. Unless a conscious effort is made by every person whoclaims to be a sincere believer of vEdAs, nothing can be done.Everyone has a notion that the world is like this - without moneynothing could be done. 'Try being a sincere follower of vEdictradition, you won't have money for the food for the day' is whateveryone sarcastically say. While I laugh at such accusations, Ihave an interesting point to make. Think about 'every organism' inthe world other than human beings. Who is feeding them? Do they earnmoney and save? Don't they eat, give birth to their kids, grow themtill an adult, and then die? How is that possible in all theterrestrial, aquatic and arial beings other than the human? Whichmeans, the supreme lord has provided everything for us to live. Wedon't have to make ourselves go through the nonsense of modern trendto live our basic life. More than the non believers, it is we whoclaim ourselves to be believers(?), who, under the name oflivelihood, are consciously corrupting the vedic society andcreating an irrepairable damage to the vedic knowledge and thus tothe entire society/world/universe itself.May be it is time to think and get into action instead of expectingsome magic or some incarnation of the lord to come and clean. It isa shame to expect the lord to come and do the cleanup while He hasgiven all the ability for us to do it ourselves.mudalvanai chindiyAda appAvakArigaLai padaittavan enganampadaittAnkolO?adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan lakshmi narasimhan , "Dr.V.Sadagopan"<yennappanwrote:>> SrI:>> Dear Sriman VenkatakrishNan & Sriman Siva Iyer :>> Thanks very much for posting this important article .> It provides focus on an important area . Sri Ahobila Matam> and Sri Andavan Aasramam are training these future scholars> with not only sampradhAyic knowledge but also modern skills> ( Computer skills) that could increase their employabilty> in the main stream as well , while rooted in their> Vedic Training . I am sure that other AchAryAs are giving> serious thoughts to this difficult situation . Our young girls> want to run as far as possible from qualified Vaidhika> bachelors with tufts (Sikhai) and who can not take them to> the movies & restaurants ..>> I know one Bruhaspathy , who has fully trained his son> in performing all the Vaidhika Kaaryams , while sending> him to school to earn a Technical degree from an IIT .> His other son is staying in a classical Veda PaatasAla .>> These are real problems needing real and creative solutions .>> V.Sadagopan> -> venkata krishnan>>>> B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.> website www.vedascience.com>> --- On Mon, 9/29/08, V.M.Ramkumar <vmrk.74 wrote:>> Monday, September 29, 2008, 2:17 PM>>> Thought provoking fact in our life........ ......>>>>> Who will marry our priests ?>> The other day, I had been to a VEDA_PAATHASHAALAin Kerala, where they impart VEDIC education in the four Vedas, espthe YAJURVEDA, with the prime objective of creating highly trainedpriests and trained VEDIC chanters for conduct of various Hindufunctions and rituals.>>> As a NRI, and also a trained YAJURVEDI myself, Ifind lots of peace and solace whenever I'm able to give back tosuch great institutions providing the priests of our great religionwho are important cogs of our faith, without whom we would all belost.>>> I was impressed at the number of young mentraining enthusiastically in the Vedas and the chief old priestwelcomed my modest donation. And then he added with a wry smile.>>> NRI Hindus like you and other well to do Hindus inIndia come here and give us lots of money and resources for ourVedic school and we are no doubt indebted to them. BUT NOBODY GIVESUS GIRLS IN MARRIAGE FOR ALL THIS ELIGIBLE YOUNG MEN HERE, EVEN THEHIGHEST QUALIFIED PRIESTS..WHY? ? AREN"T THESE YOUNG MEN NOT GOODAS ANY DOCTOR OR LAWYER OUT THERE BY VIRTUE OF EXCELLING IN THEVEDAS, THE ENGINE OF OUR HINDU CULTURE. WHY DOES OUR SOCIETY GIVETHESE YOUNG MEN SECONDARY STATUS AND LOOK DOWN UPON THEIRPROFESSION?? , the old priest asked and set me thinking.>>> YES: THE OLD PRIEST WAS VERY RIGHT. WE DO NOTWANT OUR SISTERS/DAUGHTERS TO GET MARRIED TO ANY PRIEST EVEN IF THEPRIEST IS WELL QUALIFIED IN THE VEDAS AND EVEN HAS GOOD INCOME.> EVEN YOUNG HINDU GIRLS, MESMERIZED BY WESTERNVALUES AND FASHION DO NOT WANT TO MARRY PRIESTS... WHY???>>> And immediately my thoughts went to theircounterparts in other religions> and what I see is this:>>> THE MULLAH, THE RABBI, THE FATHER, HAVE GOT MUCHMUCH BETTER STATUS IN THEIR SOCIETIES AND CIRCLES THAN OUR HINDUPRIESTS. MANY OF THE MUSLIMS FEEL THAT IT IS THE HIGHEST HONOR IFTHEIR DAUGHTERS/SISTERS COULD GET NIKAAH WITH A MAULVI WELL VERSEDIN THE KORAN.>>> And here I mention my encounter with amultimillionaire Jewish business from Australia (where I live)proudly sending his two sons to Israel to get trained in a JewishSeminary where they could choose to become highly qualified rabbis,should they deem so. I then asked this businessman as to whetherhe would have any objections if his sons became Rabbis instead ofjoining him in his business or taking up other-so-called- made-itoccupations. For this the businessman replied without hesitation:I WILL BE THE MOST FORTUNATE FATHER IF MY SONS BECOME QUALIFIEDRABBIS.">>> And then I wondered: HOW MANY RICH HINDUSWILLINGLY SEND THEIR SONS TO VEDA PAATHASHAALAS WITH THE SOLEINTENTION OF MAKING THEM PRIESTS???> THE ANSWER: ZILCH... AND THIS IS A MATTER OFGREAT SHAME FOR ALL HINDUS.>>> AND WE TALK OF SURVIVAL OF HINDUISM IN BHARAT WHENWE DO NOT GIVE A DAMN FOR EVEN OUR GENUINELY WELL QUALIFIEDPRIESTS????>>> MASTERING THE VEDAS IS AS PROFOUND AND EVEN HIGHERTHAN BECOMING A DOCTOR OR A LAWYER OR A SCIENTIST...>>> THERE IS AN IRONIC SIGN IN Udupi AND IT READS:>>> HERE PRIESTS AND COOKS CAN NEVER GET MARRIED!!!>>> SHIVA IYER, om.sriguru (AT) gmail (DOT) com> 260908> Get rid of Add-Ons in your email ID. Get yourname (AT) ymail (DOT) com. Sign up now! Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only on MSN News Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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