Are SriVaishnavas belonging to 4th varnam authorised to chant Sri Vishnu Saharanamam?

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Srimathe Sri VanSatagopa Sri NArayanaYateendra Mahadesikaya Namaha:

Respectful Bhagavathothamas,

 

In the context of who are authorised to recite SriVishnu

SahasraNamam, Adiyen has a small doubt.

1. Can Srivaishnavas belonging to the fourth varnam(like adiyen) recite

sahasranamam?

2. Regarding mantra trayam japam - is adiyen authorised to do japam of

ThiruAshtaksharam and Srimanthram?

If yes, then on what days or occasions should the thiruAshtakshara japam and

Sri mantra japam be avoided ?

 

Adiyen would be very grateful if someone can clarify these doubts.

 

Adiyen,

Raghavan.j

[Guest guest]

SrI:

Srimad azhagiya singar thiruvadigalE saranam:

 

Dear Sri Raghavan svAmin,

 

1. As adiyEn understood from Sri AnAnd KaralappAkkam svAmi, in the last

tele-upanyAsam srimad azhagiya singar told that the men belonging to

nAnkAm-varnA and the ladies of all varnAs should not recite Sri Vishnu

sahasra nAmAm, as it contains pranavA and some other manthrAs. But they

can hear the recitaion done by someone who is allowed to recite it.

 

2. For the second question, adiyEn does not know the answer, and

request the other bAghavathAs to answer for it.

 

Thanks,

adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,

Lakshmi kumAr

 

--- RAGHAVANJ <RAGHAVANJ wrote:

> Sri:

> Srimathe Sri VanSatagopa Sri NArayanaYateendra

> Mahadesikaya Namaha:

> Respectful Bhagavathothamas,

>

> In the context of who are authorised to recite

> SriVishnu

> SahasraNamam, Adiyen has a small doubt.

> 1. Can Srivaishnavas belonging to the fourth

> varnam(like adiyen) recite

> sahasranamam?

> 2. Regarding mantra trayam japam - is adiyen

> authorised to do japam of

> ThiruAshtaksharam and Srimanthram?

> If yes, then on what days or occasions should the

> thiruAshtakshara japam and

> Sri mantra japam be avoided ?

>

> Adiyen would be very grateful if someone can clarify

> these doubts.

>

> Adiyen,

> Raghavan.j

>

>

------

> Srimate Sri Laksminrisimha Divya Paduka Sevaka

> Srivan Satakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Mahadesikaya

> Nama

>

>

>

 

 

 

Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.

[Guest guest]

lakshmi kumar <lakshmikuma- wrote:

>

> 1. As adiyEn understood from Sri AnAnd KaralappAkkam svAmi, in the last

> tele-upanyAsam srimad azhagiya singar told that the men belonging to

> nAnkAm-varnA and the ladies of all varnAs should not recite Sri Vishnu

> sahasra nAmAm, as it contains pranavA and some other manthrAs.

 

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but I only recently read this

message. I was also listening to the upanyAsam in question and

Srimad Azhagiya Singar only commented on whether women should

recite Sri SahasranAmam. He did not, to my recollection offer

comments on anyone else's right to recite the stotram.

Sri Anand Swami may wish to check with Srimad Azhagiya Singar

about this.

 

The interesting thing is that the SahasranAma phalaSruti, which

is commented on by Sri Parasara Bhattar, itself refers to people

of all varnas, including those who have not had upanayanam, as

reciting Sri Vishnu SahasranAmam. Here is the sloka, with Bhattar's

vyAkhyAnam:

 

atha caturNAm varNaviSeshANAm anadhirUdha-bhagavad-bhaktInAm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

anAkAnkshita-phalaviSeshANAm yathAyogyam phalam Aha -- " vedAntaga: iti "

 

[ phalaSruti sloka ]

 

vedAntago brAhmaNa: syAt kshatriyo vijayI bhavet |

vaiSyo dhanasamRddha: syAt Sudra: sukham avApnuyAt ||

^^^^^^

Translation:

 

[The next sloka] mentions the fruit that will be gotten

through merit by the members of the four castes who have

not yet got the intense devotion to God and who are not

desirous of any particular fruit.

 

[ sloka as translated by Sri U.Ve. A. Srinivasa Raghavan ]

 

If the person who recites it is a brahmin, he

will attain the knowledge of the Vedanta. If he

is a Kshatriya, he will become a great victor.

If a Vaishya, he will acquire immense wealth; and

if a Sudra, he will enjoy great happiness.

 

[ pp. 780-781, as published by Visistadvaita

Pracharini Sabha ]

 

[ all these slokas go with the " etat prakIrtayet " / " recites them "

in phalasruti sloka 5. ]

 

As I understand the argument, praNava contains the essence

of Vedas. Vedas are only imparted after brahmopadesam, i.e.,

upanayanam. Therefore, the reasoning is that people who have

not had upanayanam do not have a right to Vedas or praNavam.

 

However, Srimad Azhagiya Singar to my recollection did not

specifically say this was the reason that women should not

say Vishnu SahasranAmam. In fact, Sri Vishnu SahasranAma

pArAyaNam is prescribed for young brahmin boys who have *not*

had upanayanam yet, and consequently do not have adhikAra

for Vedas or Pranavam! [ See " upayukta pArAyaNam " , published

by Sri U.Ve. Uttamur T. Viraraghavachariar Swami. ] I doubt

if this is any different in Sri Ahobila Matham tradition.

 

I think further clarification is required before

concluding that sAttAda Sri Vaishnavas cannot recite this

divine stotram.

 

rAmAnuja dAsan

Mani

[Guest guest]

>

> Mani Varadarajan [mani]

> Friday, September 24, 1999 8:39 PM

>

>

>

> The interesting thing is that the SahasranAma phalaSruti, which

> is commented on by Sri Parasara Bhattar, itself refers to people

> of all varnas, including those who have not had upanayanam, as

> reciting Sri Vishnu SahasranAmam.

^^^^^^^^^

 

No! to my knowledge this is not stated in the verse or

Sri Parasara Bhattar's commentary. The English translation

is certainly not precise here.

 

 

> Here is the sloka, with Bhattar's vyAkhyAnam:

>

> atha caturNAm varNaviSeshANAm anadhirUdha-bhagavad-bhaktInAm

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> anAkAnkshita-phalaviSeshANAm yathAyogyam phalam Aha --

> " vedAntaga: iti "

>

> [ phalaSruti sloka ]

>

> vedAntago brAhmaNa: syAt kshatriyo vijayI bhavet |

> vaiSyo dhanasamRddha: syAt Sudra: sukham avApnuyAt ||

> ^^^^^^

 

 

This slokam describes only the phalam. Neither the

verse nor Sri Parasara Bhattar's commentary for this

verse say anything about reciting Sahasranaamam as

the condition for getting these phalams. Only the

English translation uses the word " recite " .

 

To properly understand this verse we need to go

back one verse and look at Sri Parasara Bhattar's

commentary for verse #2. That verse is:

 

ya idham sruNuyaan nithyam yascAoi parikIrthayEth |

na asubham prApnuyAth kinchit sa mutra iha ca maanava: ||

 

On the surface this verse says that no inauspiciousness

will befall those who listen to or recite sahasranaamam.

But Sri Parasara Bhattar in his commentary adds the

term " adhikaaram " . A careful reading of the commentary

for this verse reveals that those who hear it, or recite

it, ***according to their respective authority***, i.e.

adhikAram, nothing inauspicious will accrue either in

this world or the other. That is, the effect will be

same whether they hear it, according to their authority,

or recite it according to their authority.

 

Now, we need to look at verse #3 in this context. Then,

the interpretation for this verse where the phalam for

each varNa is described can be easily understood as the

phalam of either listening, or reciting, each being

equally efficacious, according to the person's authority.

In other words, the phalam described in this verse does

not require the person to recite sahasranaamam. It will

accrue by just listening if the person has authority only

to listen. The translation for this verse does include

the word, " recite " but neither the original verse, nor

Sri Parasara Bhattar's commentary includes the word

" recite " . Thus one can reasonably conclude that the use

of the word " recite " in the translation was unwarranted.

 

We all must realize that our opinions and interpretations

of poorvaacharyAs commentary can easily miss the true

intent. Those who are in doubt may refer this matter

to Srimad Azhagiya Singar in a **private** conversation

and the Jeeyar's word will of course be final. However,

when we approach Srimad Azhagiya Singar, our intent must

NOT be to present our own idea and ask for HH's blessings

for it, but it must be to understand HH's thiru uLLaam

and follow it with eagerness and joy.

 

srimad azhagiya singar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

 

-- adiyEn ramanuja dasan

 

p.s. adiyEn wishes to thank Sri Krishna Kalale for

helping me with the translation of Sri Parasara

Bhattar's commentary for verse #2 and #3.

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

I would like to add to this a few issues raised by Sri Samkaracharya

(original one) in Vishnu sahasranama bhasya. The views written in Sri

Parasarabhatter's commentary were posted by Sri dileepan, hence I will not

repeat what was told. This is only for additional testimony. Sri

Samkaracharya's views are very clear regarding this issue.

 

Please note that in general Sri Samkaracharya's views are agreeable to

visistadvaitins, except the issues of " jagan mithya vada " or illusoriness

of world and nirguna brahma vada - or existence of nirguna brahman as

ultimate reality. Hence, please do not contemplate on an unconditional

boycott of Sri Samkaracharya's views.

 

Sri Samkaracharya writes :

sudrah sukham avapnuyat shravanenaiva na tu japa yajnena. - Sudra attains

peace by listening only not doing japa yajna of sahasranama.

tasmat shudro yajne anavakliptah - taittiriya samhita 7-1-1-9 (this means

that a person born as sudra is not adhikari or qualified to do yajnas of

any kind including japa yajna. Mahabharata says - shravayet chaturo varnan

kritva brahmanam agratah - In mahabharata it is said that a person who is

not adhikari to utter sahasramana should allow a Brahmin to lead the chants

and listen to the chants. However, for traivarnikas, or for one who

belongs to three varnas - brahmana, vaishya kshatrias, they can chant and

attain peace from sahasranama.

 

This is the official view as per Sri Samkaracharya. I was surprised to see

such a rather orthodox view in advaitic bhasyas since advaitic sannyasis

generally do not agree with this view even though it is clearly written by

Sri Samkaracharya Himself!!. I should add that such rules have been

ignored for most extent by Sri Chaitanya school of vaishnavism. Orthodox

schools like Srivaishnavism & Dvaitavedantins, I guess follow the vedic

rules and regulations strictly regarding this issue.

 

Note that our acharyas are strict followers of shastras. They do not

discriminate against people, they only follow the word of shastras exactly

as is. " shastra yonitvat " and " tasmat shastram pramanam te karyakarya

vyavastitau " (When you face a situation of doubt whether to do something or

not to do it, shastra is the final testimony to determine what to do) -

Lord Krishna's words in Bhagawadgita.

 

adiyen Krishna Kalale

 

 

dileepan [sMTP:dileepan]

Friday, September 24, 1999 9:43 PM

(AT) eGroups (DOT) com

Re: Are SriVaishnavas belonging to 4th varnam authorised to chant

Sri Vishnu Saharanamam?

 

>

> Mani Varadarajan [mani]

> Friday, September 24, 1999 8:39 PM

>

>

>

> The interesting thing is that the SahasranAma phalaSruti, which

> is commented on by Sri Parasara Bhattar, itself refers to people

> of all varnas, including those who have not had upanayanam, as

> reciting Sri Vishnu SahasranAmam.

^^^^^^^^^

 

No! to my knowledge this is not stated in the verse or

Sri Parasara Bhattar's commentary. The English translation

is certainly not precise here.

 

 

> Here is the sloka, with Bhattar's vyAkhyAnam:

>

> atha caturNAm varNaviSeshANAm anadhirUdha-bhagavad-bhaktInAm

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> anAkAnkshita-phalaviSeshANAm yathAyogyam phalam Aha --

> " vedAntaga: iti "

>

> [ phalaSruti sloka ]

>

> vedAntago brAhmaNa: syAt kshatriyo vijayI bhavet |

> vaiSyo dhanasamRddha: syAt Sudra: sukham avApnuyAt ||

> ^^^^^^

 

 

This slokam describes only the phalam. Neither the

verse nor Sri Parasara Bhattar's commentary for this

verse say anything about reciting Sahasranaamam as

the condition for getting these phalams. Only the

English translation uses the word " recite " .

 

To properly understand this verse we need to go

back one verse and look at Sri Parasara Bhattar's

commentary for verse #2. That verse is:

 

ya idham sruNuyaan nithyam yascAoi parikIrthayEth |

na asubham prApnuyAth kinchit sa mutra iha ca maanava: ||

 

On the surface this verse says that no inauspiciousness

will befall those who listen to or recite sahasranaamam.

But Sri Parasara Bhattar in his commentary adds the

term " adhikaaram " . A careful reading of the commentary

for this verse reveals that those who hear it, or recite

it, ***according to their respective authority***, i.e.

adhikAram, nothing inauspicious will accrue either in

this world or the other. That is, the effect will be

same whether they hear it, according to their authority,

or recite it according to their authority.

 

Now, we need to look at verse #3 in this context. Then,

the interpretation for this verse where the phalam for

each varNa is described can be easily understood as the

phalam of either listening, or reciting, each being

equally efficacious, according to the person's authority.

In other words, the phalam described in this verse does

not require the person to recite sahasranaamam. It will

accrue by just listening if the person has authority only

to listen. The translation for this verse does include

the word, " recite " but neither the original verse, nor

Sri Parasara Bhattar's commentary includes the word

" recite " . Thus one can reasonably conclude that the use

of the word " recite " in the translation was unwarranted.

 

We all must realize that our opinions and interpretations

of poorvaacharyAs commentary can easily miss the true

intent. Those who are in doubt may refer this matter

to Srimad Azhagiya Singar in a **private** conversation

and the Jeeyar's word will of course be final. However,

when we approach Srimad Azhagiya Singar, our intent must

NOT be to present our own idea and ask for HH's blessings

for it, but it must be to understand HH's thiru uLLaam

and follow it with eagerness and joy.

 

srimad azhagiya singar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

 

-- adiyEn ramanuja dasan

 

p.s. adiyEn wishes to thank Sri Krishna Kalale for

helping me with the translation of Sri Parasara

Bhattar's commentary for verse #2 and #3.

 

 

------

Srimate Sri Laksminrisimha Divya Paduka Sevaka

Srivan Satakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Mahadesikaya Nama

[Guest guest]

Dear BhaghavatAs:

 

I have heard this following explanation. From the question " Kim Japan

MuchyatE janthu:... " the word janthu implies - " sarva prAnInAm adhikAram

soochayati " that every living being can adopt this pathway of meditating on

the sahasranAmam. While meditating on ashtAkshara, ladies or 4th varna

substitute the word " am " for pranavA, can't the same formula be used for

chanting the sahasranAmam.

 

____

[Guest guest]

" vijayaraghavan srinivasan " <vijayaraghavan_- wrote:

original article:/?start=438

>

> Dear BhaghavatAs:

>

> I have heard this following explanation. From the question " Kim

Japan

> MuchyatE janthu:... " the word janthu implies - " sarva prAnInAm

adhikAram

> soochayati " that every living being can adopt this pathway of

meditating on

> the sahasranAmam.

 

 

One may approach one's AcArya and get the matter clarified. However,

Sri Parasara Bhattar does not offer a blanket cover for the position

that there is no restriction for everyone to recite Sri Vishnu

Sahasranaamam without regard to varNam.

 

srimad azhagiya singar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

 

-- adiyEn ramanuja dasan

[Guest guest]

Srimaan Sumanth Kaushik wrote:

> It would therefore appear that there is a range of opinions

> regarding the right of women to recite VS and it is left to the

> specific interpretation of one's acharya as to what is or what is

> not appropriate for his sishyas.

 

This is absolutely correct, and which is also why it is not

appropriate to make blanket statements of any kind. I don't

believe I made any such statement about any universal teaching,

taught by all acharyas and applicable to everyone. I referred

only to the words of Bhattar.

 

By the way, I am both an amateur reader and listener. I just

found it troublesome that blanket extrapolations of H.H. Srimad

Azhagiya Singar's statements were being bandied about, even

in private, without appropriate clarification from Sri Swami

himself.

 

> I would be curious to know if the VS as recited by boys prior to

> upanayanam (as recommended by Sri U.Ve. Uttamur T. Viraraghavachariar

> Swami according to Mani) is the SAME VS that an individual would recite

> post-Upanayanam.

 

At least according to Sri Uttamur Swami's publication, the entire

Vishnu Sahasranaamam, with all the nyAsas, is printed and recommended

for recitation for boys before upanayanam. Unless this was an oversight

by the Swami, which I doubt, since he was meticulous beyond belief,

it appears that the whole thing was recommended. I would appreciate

any clarification from knowledgable readers on this point.

 

> What exactly is Parasara Battar advocating? Is he merely advocating that

> the recitations of the 1008 names (which I take to be the sankIrtinam)?

> or is he advocating the recitation of the entire Stotram. The stotram

> includes not only the Lord's names, but also the method by which the japam

> is to be performed, as well as the benefits accrued by its recitation.

 

You bring out a very good point. We do not know, because Bhattar is not

clear on this issue. But the impression left by some writers on Sri Malolan Net

was that the *entire* sahasranAmam (not just nyAsam or praNavam, but the

holy names as well) was not to be recited either by women or non-dvijas.

Clearly, this was certainly not mentioned by either Bhattar or Srimad Azhagiya

Singar,

and was pure academic speculation, one that is vocally discouraged on this net,

and hopefully discouraged in private when real people's feelings and sAdhana

are at stake.

 

> It would seem that Parasara Battar, if he wanted to be direct, could have

> said in unambigious words that Sudras and other non-dvijas have the right to

> not only recite the VS. In fact, if the theme of his commentary was the

> accessibility of the VS to all, he should have gone further in explicitly

> recommending that learned dvijas should take the effort to

> *teach* the VS to non-dvijas (remember, in the time of Parasara Battar,

> there were no books from which the common folk could go and just purchase

> and learn VS.) He did none of this. Is there evidence that Parasara Battar

> intiated a non-dvija with the Vishnu Sahasranamam?

 

With respect, no commentator writes in such a fashion, and you are academically

speculating as to why Bhattar did not write something. It is an unreasonable

expectation to ask for every single possible solution to a question to be

presented in a commentary. Please also recall that presence of information is

stronger evidence than absence of information. As you are aware, Bhattar is

extolling the glories of bhagavad-nAma-sankIrtanam as represented by Sri

Vishnu SahasranAmam. One of the glories of this stotram, as explicitly stated

by Sri Bhattar, is that it is available to anyone, because it requires no

dravya (substance) whatsoever, other than the ability to speak, and reciting

names of the Lord is akin to a son addressing his mother. There are so many

instances of these touching expressions, some of which I mentioned in my

previous email.

 

Please understand that I am not alone in reading Bhattar in this manner.

As pointed out in my previous emails, I am only echoing Sri U.Ve. Pudukottai

A. Srinivasa Raghavachariar's comments as well as the opinion of

Dr. S. Padmanabhan, author of a book on Bhattar published by Sri Ahobila Matham.

This is not to say that this is the view of Srimad Azhagiya Singar; one should

approach him and ask him. However, it is also not mere academic speculation.

 

I am not saying that this is absolutely conclusive, as obviously you, Sri

Sumanth,

and others do not accept this as the teaching of Bhattar. However, it certainly

makes one pause before accepting an extrapolation mentioned by an amateur

(as all of us are) on this list.

 

> It should be noted that most of the members of the this group (men, women,

> dvijas and non-alike) are devout sishyas of Srimad Azhagiya Singar.

> Frankly, this issue can be resolved trivially by asking Srimad Azhagiya Singar

> these questions directly and saving all this bandwidth. These topics

> invariably bring unnecessary acrimony and achieve nothing in elucidating and

> understanding our divine sampradayam.

 

I agree with this 100%, and this is what I suggested myself in my first

email. Unfortunately, advice was given to others, and perhaps inadvertently

posted on this list, without consulting Srimad Azhagiya Singar. I think

we would all agree that this was not the wisest thing, given the rules of

Sri Malolan_net, as it was basically academic speculation.

 

As a final note, I trust we are all aware that *none* of the people born in

the dvija community and living in the US have any adhikAram whatsoever

for all the things that a dvija can claim adhikAram to. This is because

of lack of basic anushThAnam, lack of proper Veda adhyayanam, i.e., proper

learning and maintenance of the Veda from a guru, and fundamentally for

having crossed the ocean. I therefore feel that advice about someone

else's inability or lack of adhikAram can only come straight from the

mouth of our Acharyas in India, who are living breathing examples of

AchAram and anushThAnam, and not from us here who are dvijas only because

of the thread we wear.

 

Dear Moderator -- please pardon this overly long email. This will be my last

one on this subject, as we have beaten it to death.

 

bhattar daasan,

Mani