Are SriVaishnavas belonging to 4th varnam aut

[Guest guest]

periya bhattar thirvadigaLE SaraNam

--

 

Fellow Bhaktas,

 

I read the informative replies of Sri Krishna Kalale et al with

great interest. Please indulge me in yet one more post on this

subject. My main points have not been taken note of:

 

(a) Srimad Azhagiya Singar issued advice only about women reciting

Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam. To my recollection, Sri Swami

did not mention anything else about anyone else's ability

to recite this Stotram, so I would be wary of any extrapolations

in that direction.

 

(b) Sri Anand Swami made the following argument:

(i) Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam contains the praNava, which

is the essence of the Vedas

(ii) Non-dvijas do not have the authority to say anything Vedic,

including praNava, due to lack of upanayana samskAram

(iii) Therefore non-dvija (so-called 4th varNa) males may not say

Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam.

 

My question is as follows. The general understanding is that

a brahmin boy who has not had upanayanam does not have authority

to say Vedas or praNava. However, such brahmin boys are encouraged

to learn and recite Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam before their upanayanam

(see Sri Uttamur Swami's publication).

 

This must mean that Srimad Azhagiya Singar's restriction on women

reciting the Vishnu Sahasranaamam is probably not based on praNava,

so no extrapolation to non-dvijas in general can be made.

 

Otherwise, there is no way to explain the fact that brahmin boys

without upanayanam, who are from a Vedic standpoint equivalent to

Sudras, are allowed, nay, encouraged to recite Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam.

 

I request Sri Anand Swami or others to clarify this specific point.

 

© Bhattar's position

 

Before I discuss Sri Parasara Bhattar's position, I see that

Sri Krishna Kalale has cited Sri Sankaracharya Bhagavatpaada as

an authority for this restriction. Unfortunately, we cannot use

this information in any useful way; Sri Sankara's views on many

subjects are vastly different from our acharyas, and this may

be another one -- I am not sure. For example, Sri Sankaracharya

categorically restricts moksha to brahmin sannyAsis alone, whereas

our kripa-mAtra-prasannAchArya Bhagavad Ramanuja has openly taught

that simple bhara-nyAsa, open to anyone including animals, will

directly lead to Sri Vaikuntha and nitya-kainkaryam. So, no matter

how learned and well-versed in the shastras he may have been,

Sri Sankara can not be an authority for us. Even the Mahabharata

citation he mentions is quite vague -- does it refer to the Vedic

recitation, a Vedic yajna, or specifically the sahasranAmam?

It is unclear.

 

Regarding " vedAntago brAhmaNa: syAt...Sudra: sukham... " , etc.

----------------------------

As mentioned before, this occurs in the phalaSruti. Sri U.Ve.

Pudukottai Srinivasa Raghavachariar Swami's translation was disputed

as " not precise " , and we were told to look at the previous verse,

which referred to the " adhikAra " or " ability / prerogative " to

recite this string of the Lord's names.

 

It is just as plausible to take this verse, as Sri Srinivasa

Raghavachariar Swami does, to mean that even if one does not know

how to say it (i.e., inability), the mere hearing of it, such as

a child or animal does, leads to the banishment of anything bad.

This is a true " phalaSruti " , which lends greatness to the stotra --

a mute who cannot even say it or understand it can avoid evil,

merely by listening! In any case, there is no mention of " Sudra "

in this verse or commentary.

 

This interpretation is further supported by Bhattar's statement in

the introduction, while commenting on the words " always praising

(by reciting names) and worshipping... " (stavair archair naraH sadA):

 

" naraH iti prAyeNa *sarvacetanAnAm* yathAsambhavam adhikAram sUcayati "

 

person (naraH) -- This kind of worship is open to all beings in

accordance with their equipment. "

 

Please notice the same use of the word " adhikAram " in conjunction

with yathAsambhavam.

 

Dr. S. Padmanabhan, in his monograph on Bhattar published by

Sri Visishtadvaita Research Centre (an arm of Sri Ahobila Matham),

writes about this form of bhakti, " Distinctions of birth, knowledge

and the like do not stand in the way of practicing bhakti. It is

also worth noticing in this context that Parasara takes his stand

on the word 'nara' itself and seems to set aside the restrictions

imposed on certain communities in the 'apaSudrAdhikaraNa' of the

Brahmasutra itself. " (p. 34)

 

But why else is this a more convincing explanation? Let us look

at other excerpts from Sri Bhattar's glorious bhAshya. (The Sanskrit

originals are provided at the end of this email.)

 

(i) " Therefore *any* person, desirous of supreme bliss or material

pleasures, whoever he may be, may resort to it -- so it is said

in 'This stotra...':

 

That person who desires to obtain supreme bliss and the

pleasures of the world, should *read* this stotra of Bhagavaan

Vishnu sung by the great sage Vyasa. "

 

(ii) " It is the conclusion arrived at by Bhishma that sankIrtana, etc.,

are the best form of worship of the Lord for the following and

other reasons...(6) those who are qualified to do this worship

are *innumerable*, and hence it is suitable to *all* men. "

 

(iii) Sri Vijayaraghavan Srinivasan's excellent point about the meaning

of " jantu (being) " :

 

Text: By reciting which mantra is a man (jantu) released from the

bonds of birth and samsAra?

 

Commentary by Bhattar: jantuH -- anyone who has the characteristic

of being born (Sri Srinivasa Raghavachariar's translation)

 

(iv) " There is no prohibition of the recitation of the holy names by

any person, whatever his position may be, as in the case of a

son with reference to his mother. "

 

[ What a lovely analogy! ]

 

(v) " Then what about persons who are unable to perform all the means

enjoined by the sastras? In order to dispel such fears, Bhishma

points out an easy way in stanzas 6 and 7 by answering the

third question, '*Praising* whom.'

 

[ Please note that Bhattar is drawing a strong contrast between

the meditational bhakti-yoga of the Vedas, which traditionally

non-dvijas cannot perform, and the universality of the bhakti

of nAma-sankIrtanam enshrined in the Vishnu SahasranAmam.

Bhattar categorically says that this bhakti is not subject to

those restrictions. ]

 

So what is prohibited to non-dvijas? Bhattar is very clear:

 

(vi) " What is prohibited to those other than the three higher castes

is only the ceremonies connected with the sacrificial fire which

the former have not learnt, and the supreme science to be known

through the Vedanta, as they have not studied the Vedas under

an instructor and obtained the necessary qualification by studying

the Upanishads under a guru. "

 

There are many other excerpts that one may cite. Even otherwise, upon

reading Bhattar's detailed bhAshya, one would have to agree that he is

encouraging at least all men to recite Sri Vishnu SahasranAmam. It is

important to note that he *never* cites prohibitions a la Sri Sankaracharya,

and indeed tries to do the opposite, showing the universality of nAma

sankIrtanam via Sri Vishnu SahasranAma pArAyaNam.

 

In my presentation, I am trying to stick as close as humanly possible

to the words of Sri Bhattar and what Srimad Azhagiya Singar actually

said, not extrapolations made by amateur listeners. I hope this is

understood.

 

bhattar daasan,

Mani

 

---

 

(i) etat *yaH kaScit cetanaH* (!) prAvaraSreyorthI nirviSakaH sevatAm

ityAh imam stavam iti:

 

imam *stavam* bhagavato vishnor vyAsena *kIrtitam* |

*pathet* ya icchet *purushah* Sreyah prAptum sukhAni ca || (Phalasruti 21)

 

(ii) subhikshAdikAritayA viSvajanInatvAt ... hetubhyaH bhagavad-asAdhAraNa-

sankIrtanAdi-dharmaH adhikatamaH bhIshma-mataH |

 

(iii) jantuH -- janana dharmAH |

 

(iv) yuktaS caiva sarvAvasthenApi purusheNa mAtur iva putreNa ...

bhagavato nAmagrahaNAdau apratishedhaH |

 

(v) *SAstrIya-sarvopAya-daridrANAm* *prANinAm* (!) kA gatir it bhayam apanetam

laghu-upAyam darSayan " stuvantaH kam " iti tritIya praSnam prativakti

" tam eva " ityAdi " sarvabhUtabhavodbhavam " ity antena |

 

(vi) atraivarNikAnAm an-agni-vidyatvAt agni-vidyAngeshu gurUpasadnAdi-

aupanishadi-samskAra-abhAvena vedAntavedya-paravidyopArjane

ca anupAyatvAt anaadhikAro rAddhistitaH |

[Guest guest]

Sri:

Sri Lakshmi nrisimha parabrahmaNE nama:

Sri Lakshmi nrisimha divya paduka sevaka

srivan satakopa sri narayana yatindra mahadesikaya nama:

 

Dear bhagavathas:

 

This divine Malola Paduka Sevaka Net is dedicated for not mere academic

discussions, but authentic practice of our Sampradayam. Those who have read

the guidelines of this net carefully would have noted the following passage

in the very first paragraph.

 

" The primary objective of Malolan_net (also referred

to as " list " hereafter) is the propagation of Sri

Ramanuja Dharsanam as firmly established by Swami

Sri Desikan (hereafter referred to as Sri Desika

Sampradayam) among Sri Vaishnavas with interest in

the study and practice of our tradition.... "

 

When it comes to practice there is nothing more important than " prapatti "

and the angAs that go with it. One of the angas of prapatti is,

" prAthikoola varjanam " , namely, abjuring that which is displeasing to the

Lord. Therefore, what we write in this net must NEVER have any chance of

causing someone else to violate this cardinal principle.

 

In this context, for the question of what Sri parasara Bhattar says about

reciting Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam, we need to give authentic answers that

promote the proper practice of our sampradayam, and at all cost must refrain

from giving answers that may cause injury to the practice. Here we must

note that anything against sasthras as stated in our sampradayam is

injurious. Therefore, if a position _may_ cause injury due to being not

according to sampradayam, then the onus is upon the individual wanting to

state such opinion to get it authenticated.

 

Note that the position that any male can recite, if wrong, will cause

injury. This is extremely egregious in this instance since the one making

such statements is not the one who will suffer the consequences of following

it if the position is wrong. On the other hand the two positions, (i) no

non-dvaja male can recite expressed via private mail by Sri Jagan and Sri

Anand, and (ii) one must approach an Acharya to get the matter clarified,

stated by adiyEn, if wrong, will cause no harm to anyone.

 

Further, it is well known that what is generally forbidden for women, such

as reciting vEdAs, praNavam, etc., are prohibited for non-dvajA men as well.

Therefore, if an a-priori position must be taken on the question of

recitation of Sri Vishnu sahasranaamam by a non-dvajA, it must be in the

negative, until further clarification by an authentic Achaaryaa is obtained.

This is a reasonable position to take due to several reasons.

 

[1] It is better to err on the side of caution. Negative consequences of

not reciting Sri Vishnu Sahasranaamam if there is no restriction is zero.

On the other hand, the consequence of reciting it if indeed there is

prohibition is great as it will affect one of the angAs of prapatti.

 

[2] Dvajaa males on this net have nothing at stake on this question. For

them it is just academic. But for non-dvaja males it is a serious question

with grave consequences. Therefore we owe it to our non-dvajaa brethren not

to lead them to take unnecessary risks.

 

[3] It is incumbent upon those who take positions that have negative

consequences for others, to get them authenticated before openly stating

them. It is not proper to first state such positions in the open and then

ask others to get them authenticated. This betrays a level of disregard for

this forum. Note that Sri Anand and Sri Jagan answered the question via

private mail. Only the conclusion was revealed to the net by the recipient

of the private communication.

 

[4] In the case of verse #2 of phala sruthi why must Sri Parasara talk about

" adhikaari " unless to caution readers from misinterpreting verse #3. Sri

Prarasara Bhattar further clarifies by stating that the benefits are equal

for reciting as well as hearing. " Equipment " is a translation provided by

the author and English translations are not whetted by traditional scholars.

So, English translations even by an arm of Sri Ahobila Matham cannot be a

substitute for authentication by an Acharya.

 

In summary, let us not state positions Sri Malola Padhuka Sevaka Net that

have serious risks for others if they are wrong.

 

srimad azhagiya singar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

 

-- adiyEn ramanuja dasan

 

P.s.

For the correct interpretation of the terminology " adhikaari " we have to

approach a proper aachaaryaa and understand the true intent of

poorvaachaaryas. Reading books on our own and jumping to conclusions is not

proper for this net. Here it is relevant to note Swami Sri Desikan who

cautions against unsampradyic preaching,

 

" adhyAthma rahasyangaLaich sollumavan,

sampradAyam inRikkE irukka Edu pArththAdhal,

suvaru ERik kEttAdhal sollumaakil, kaLavu

koNdu AbharaNam pooNdARpOlE kaNdaarkkellaam

thAn anca vENdum padiyAm.... "

 

-- Srimad RTS - #31 sishya krithyaathikaaram

 

" those who openly preach the rahasyaas,

those who read texts on their own without

regard to sampradaayam, and those who

listen to AchAryAs surruptiously, they

will have to live in fear as though they

are wearing stolen jewels... "

 

Sri uttamoor swami explains that the fear is due to the inability of such

individuals to give proper explanation for the obvious question, " from where

do you get the interpretation you are giving? "

[Guest guest]

There seems to be three issues pertaining to the

Vishnu Sahasranamam:

 

1. Eligibility of women

2. Eligibility of boys who have not had Upanayanam

3. Eligibility of Sudras and other non-dvijas

 

Regarding eligibility of women. My grandmother tells me that

in the days of her youth, women did not recite VS. She told

me that it was relatively recently that she began reciting

VS, and that too, only after her Acharya (Sri Vedanta Ramanuja

Mahadesikan of the Srirangam Periashramam) concluded that in

these times, it was ok for women to recite the VS. His argument

(as she recalls, and let me say that she is indeed an

" amateur listener " and she would seriously reprimand me if she

knew that I was quoting her!) was that given that men of

today have little time to devote to daily Aradhanam and worship,

that it was better that atleast someone in the household should

take the time, effort and interest to carry on the religious

traditions in the household.

 

It would therefore appear that there is a range of opinions

regarding the right of women to recite VS and it is left to the

specific interpretation of one's acharya as to what is or what is

not appropriate for his sishyas.

 

Regarding the eligibility of boys. Anecdotally, in our houshold, my

grandfather (who, to be fair, was also an " amateur " listener) taught me

the VS, but without the Phalasruti and the preamble to the Dhayanam

(the portion preparing one for the parayana japam). The purpose for

omitting these portions of the VS, was that I was not eligible for the

parayana japam, and the fruits from the japam. I was young (pre-upanayam

when I learned the VS) and did not understand why I was not " eligible, "

but as was the tradition in our household, I learned the VS without many

of the parts that is commonly recited by others.

 

I would be curious to know if the VS as recited by boys prior to

upanayanam (as recommended by Sri U.Ve. Uttamur T. Viraraghavachariar

Swami according to Mani) is the SAME VS that an individual would recite

post-Upanayanam.

 

Re: elibiglity of sudras

At 06:57 PM 9/28/99 -0700, Mani Varadarajan wrote:

>There are many other excerpts that one may cite. Even otherwise, upon

>reading Bhattar's detailed bhAshya, one would have to agree that he is

>encouraging at least all men to recite Sri Vishnu SahasranAmam. It is

>important to note that he *never* cites prohibitions a la Sri Sankaracharya,

>and indeed tries to do the opposite, showing the universality of nAma

>sankIrtanam via Sri Vishnu SahasranAma pArAyaNam.

 

What exactly is Parasara Battar advocating? Is he merely advocating that

the recitations of the 1008 names (which I take to be the sankIrtinam)?

or is he advocating the recitation of the entire Stotram. The stotram

includes not only the Lord's names, but also the method by which the japam

is to be performed, as well as the benefits accrued by its recitation.

 

It would seem that Parasara Battar, if he wanted to be direct, could have

said in unambigious words that Sudras and other non-dvijas have the right to

not only recite the VS. In fact, if the theme of his commentary was the

accessibility of the VS to all, he should have gone further in explicitly

recommending that learned dvijas should take the effort to

*teach* the VS to non-dvijas (remember, in the time of Parasara Battar,

there were no books from which the common folk could go and just purchase

and learn VS.) He did none of this. Is there evidence that Parasara Battar

intiated a non-dvija with the Vishnu Sahasranamam?

 

It seems to me that the Parasara Battar's intention in writing the commentary

was not so much to bring VS to the non-dwijas, but to extoll the glories of

the VS. He achieves this. It seems that to read more into this by

disecting his

specific choices of words (e.g. narah, jantu, etc.) and interpolate this to

what

he may or may not have thought about the rights of Sudras to recite

VS is an exercise in futility.

 

>

>In my presentation, I am trying to stick as close as humanly possible

>to the words of Sri Bhattar and what Srimad Azhagiya Singar actually

>said, not extrapolations made by amateur listeners. I hope this is

>understood.

>

>bhattar daasan,

>Mani

 

It should be noted that most of the members of the this group (men, women,

dvijas and non-alike) are devout sishyas of Srimad Azhagiya Singar.

Frankly, this issue can be resolved trivially by asking Srimad Azhagiya Singar

these questions directly and saving all this bandwidth. These topics

invariably bring unnecessary acrimony and achieve nothing in elucidating and

understanding our divine sampradayam.

 

Sumanth

 

 

 

----

Sumanth Kaushik

skaushik

 

MIT Lincoln Laboratories

S3-211

244 Wood St. 15 Winslow Road

Lexington, MA 02173 Belmont, MA 02478

Off: 617-981-0812 Ph: 617-489-6095

FAX: 617-981-5069

[Guest guest]

>

> Sumanth Kaushik [skaushik]

> Wednesday, September 29, 1999 9:40 PM

>

> Re: Are SriVaishnavas belonging to 4th varnam aut

>

>

> these times, it was ok for women to recite the VS. His argument

> (as she recalls, and let me say that she is indeed an

> " amateur listener " and she would seriously reprimand me if she

> knew that I was quoting her!)

 

:-) :-) most of us are amateurs not only in listening

but also in independently interpreting poorv-

Acharyaa's texts.

 

 

> It would therefore appear that there is a range of opinions

> regarding the right of women to recite VS and it is left to the

> specific interpretation of one's acharya as to what is or what is

> not appropriate for his sishyas.

 

 

This is quite right. Sincere practitioners will refrain from making these

determinations based on their own ability to correctly interpret

poorvAcAhaaryaas.

 

 

[..]

 

> Regarding the eligibility of boys. Anecdotally, in our houshold, my

> grandfather (who, to be fair, was also an " amateur " listener) taught me

 

:-) :-)

 

 

[..]

 

>

> Frankly, this issue can be resolved trivially

> by asking Srimad Azhagiya Singar these questions

> directly and saving all this bandwidth.

 

 

You are absolutely right about saving our time and energy by simply raising

the question with Srimad Azhagiya Singar. However, with due respects, it is

not our responsibility to get authentication for positions that any number

of people may arrive at, based on their independent interpretations. That

responsibility is theirs alone. We have an obligation to get clarification

only if sincere bhagavathaas have sincere questions with a keen interest to

follow the answers we get from our AchAryaas.

 

srimad azhagiya singar thiruvadigaLE saraNam

 

-- adiyEn ramanuja dasan