Songs on Saguna Brahman

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaktas,

Off late I am beign disturbed by this question,which I would like to

get clarified from you.

1. It is well understood that Adi Sankarar, Naarayana Bhattatri etc.,

have composed a lot of songs on Sriman Naarayana as the saguna-brahman.

Although their primary reason to compose the songs was to realise the nirguna

brahman, does it mean that Sri Vaishnavas should not recite these songs(songs

only praising sriman narayana).

Personally, I feel that composing songs on Sriman Naarayana to establish

the "fact" that Sriman Naarayana is ultimately unreal is not logical.

Then again does the main purpose behind the compositon of songs like Bhaja

Govindam, Naarayaneeyam(saguna brahman worship) stop us from singing those

songs?

Thanks and Regards,

adiyEn mAlOla narasimha dAsan,

mAlOlan cadAmbi

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.http://im.

[Guest guest]

Dear SrI Hari,

Your exposition on this topic is very very sound and full of logic.

I must have been blessed to receive a minute part of your intelligence.

The main purpose why I asked this question was:

I was casually glancing through some portions of the narayaneeyam which

I found is some what similar to Bhagavad-dhyAna-sopAnam of Sri Nigamantha

Maha Desikar.Add to it Sri Anantharama Dikshitar had eulogised Guruvaayurappan

in the line of the thirumoli and thiruppavai. I wanted to know wheter it

would be LOGICAL of me to further studied the nArayaneeyam. Singing

in praise of any deity to merely establish the fact that the deity is not

there is very much against logic. Even a small child would ask -- "Why

are you singing in praise of a deity and then saying that the deity does

not exsist? "

YO baalyE.. mangaLam AND prathishtabidhvEdantha poori kalyANa bhAjanam

(Swami Desika Mangalam)

MangaLam to Swamy Desikan -who was brought to that highest level by

Sri AppuLLaar; - who had been blessed by Sri Nadadhur

AmmAL, (Vaatsya Varadhacharyar) his praacharyar, “All mangaLam

to you to propagate the

Vedic religion (Sri Ramanuja siddhaantham) and conquer the non vedic

other religions, uproot them, and be praised by Vedic scholars”,

when Swamy Desikan was a young Boy.

Swamy Desikan tiruvadigale saranam.

Thanks and Warmest Regards,

Daasan,

Malolan

 

 

 

"M.S.HARI Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari" wrote:

Dear SrI Malolan Cadambi,

Though I am little surprised by your question, let me answer as follows:

As you have mentioned, SrI Adi Sankara etc., have composed such songs

not in

its primary meaning but only for their saguNa-brahmOpAsana. We can

ignore such

songs from these advaitins safely. The advaitins are prachanna-bowdhas;

how

can we expect their songs to be loaded with bhagavath-anubhavam? Our

pUrvAchAryas and AlwArs have poured their divine experiences that they

with

the Brahman SrIman NarAyaNa. When we have our pUrvAchArya SrI suktis

with us,

a basic question arises: Why should we recite the songs of prachanna-bowdhas

knowing the fact that they are composed by them aiming at advaita,

which is

fully against Veda and nyAyas? Someone calling himself as SrI VaishNava

argued

with me in an untenable way at Singapore when I told these things.

He was

willing to

even recite sowndarya lahari. I proved to him that sowndarya lahari

is against

pramANam. Even the bhaja-govindam etc., you have mentioned have so

many vague

aspects; of course its overall outline without meaning of certain terms

used

in it as per advaitin interpretation is fine. But why should we take

it? Even

if the whole bhaja-govindam is proved to be not having any advaita-meaning

without advaitin-interpretation, even then, I will not recite it because,

I am

finding it hard to find time even to recite our AachArya SrI sUkties

itself

daily! Same is the case with the keerthanas and kritis (musical compositions)

of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradAya people. For example, take

the

krithis "karpagamE kaN pArAy", "parAth para parameswara", "enna thavam

seidanai". I am not commenting on any of the personalities; but I would

like

to just highlight that these kritis mutually contradict one another;

further,

"karpagamE kaN pArAy" and "parAth para parameswara" are 100% against

all

pramANams. Will a vaidika recite/sing these type of kritis? If a vaidika

still

wants to sing/recite them, then it is his personal wish and no one

is there to

stop him. The musical aspect in these things may be great but what

about the

meaning of the lyrics? Either we have to treat their krities on bhagavan

equal

to the other veda-viridhdha-nyAya-virudhda kruties OR both must be

ignored.

Treating both as equal is not at all appropriate. Also, a vaidika

need not take advaitin's kritis on bhagavan because, the author has

no actual

regards for "VAsudEvas sarvamithi sa mahAthmA sudurlabha:" simply because

the

author is aiming at impossible advaita sidhdi!!!

Further comparing these krities of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradaya

people with our divine AlwAr-Acharya SrI-sUkties is totally an

impossible comparison.

The idea behind reciting stotras etc is to get bhagavath-anubhavam.

If the

thought comes to the mind that the stotra is composed by a prachanna

bowdha,

then it is difficult to get bhagavath-anubhavam. Advaitins do not accept

brahman as bhagavan!

Let us be vaidikas first. Automatically, we will identify ourself as

SrI VaishNavas. vaidika-sampradAya-anushtAnam is the best.

Thanks & Regards

M.S.HARI RamAnuja DAsan (mshari)

P.S. The aim of this reply is not to offend any music scholar.

No personal critisism is meant in this reply in any form but

only the subject is critically presented.

__________________

Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.http://im.

[Guest guest]

Respected members of the net,

 

Adiyen has a followup question on the lines of songs on saguna brahman.

 

Adiyen would like to know how to classify krithis as advaitic or

vishishtadvaitic? For example, lot of krithis on perumal and thayar have

been sung by Saint Thiagaraja on Lord Rama, Sri muthuswami dikshitar on

sriman narayana (adiyen is ignorant about Shyama Sastrigal), Saint

Annamacharya, Saint Purandaradasa, Oothukadu venkatasubbaiyer, and so on.

 

As adiyen does not know the meaning of telugu/kannada or sanskrit songs, it

is difficult to decipher the content. Except for a few knowledgeable people,

mass people would probably be in the same boat as myself. So, is there a

general dilineation one can do based on the composers themselves?

 

Are there also music cassettes/CDs of 4000 azhwars pasurams set to krithis

that are set to music so that people can learn them? Adiyen does know of

thirupavai set to music by Sri. Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar and some music

artists have sung some pasurams. Are there any attempts in this regard?

 

Vasaka Dosha Kshantavyaha

 

Acharyan thiruvadigale charanam.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Lakshminarasimhan S.

 

 

 

>M.S.HARI Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari <mshari

>mcadambi, mshari

>CC:

>Re: Songs on Saguna Brahman

>4 Dec 00 19:23:42 SGT

>

>Dear SrI Malolan Cadambi,

>

>Though I am little surprised by your question, let me answer as follows:

>As you have mentioned, SrI Adi Sankara etc., have composed such songs not

>in

>its primary meaning but only for their saguNa-brahmOpAsana. We can ignore

>such

>songs from these advaitins safely. The advaitins are prachanna-bowdhas; how

>can we expect their songs to be loaded with bhagavath-anubhavam? Our

>pUrvAchAryas and AlwArs have poured their divine experiences that they with

>the Brahman SrIman NarAyaNa. When we have our pUrvAchArya SrI suktis with

>us,

>a basic question arises: Why should we recite the songs of

>prachanna-bowdhas

>knowing the fact that they are composed by them aiming at advaita, which is

>fully against Veda and nyAyas? Someone calling himself as SrI VaishNava

>argued

>with me in an untenable way at Singapore when I told these things. He was

>willing to

>even recite sowndarya lahari. I proved to him that sowndarya lahari is

>against

>pramANam. Even the bhaja-govindam etc., you have mentioned have so many

>vague

>aspects; of course its overall outline without meaning of certain terms

>used

>in it as per advaitin interpretation is fine. But why should we take it?

>Even

>if the whole bhaja-govindam is proved to be not having any advaita-meaning

>without advaitin-interpretation, even then, I will not recite it because, I

>am

>finding it hard to find time even to recite our AachArya SrI sUkties itself

>daily! Same is the case with the keerthanas and kritis (musical

>compositions)

>of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradAya people. For example, take the

>krithis " karpagamE kaN pArAy " , " parAth para parameswara " , " enna thavam

>seidanai " . I am not commenting on any of the personalities; but I would

>like

>to just highlight that these kritis mutually contradict one another;

>further,

> " karpagamE kaN pArAy " and " parAth para parameswara " are 100% against all

>pramANams. Will a vaidika recite/sing these type of kritis? If a vaidika

>still

>wants to sing/recite them, then it is his personal wish and no one is there

>to

>stop him. The musical aspect in these things may be great but what about

>the

>meaning of the lyrics? Either we have to treat their krities on bhagavan

>equal

>to the other veda-viridhdha-nyAya-virudhda kruties OR both must be ignored.

>Treating both as equal is not at all appropriate. Also, a vaidika

>need not take advaitin's kritis on bhagavan because, the author has no

>actual

>regards for " VAsudEvas sarvamithi sa mahAthmA sudurlabha: " simply because

>the

>author is aiming at impossible advaita sidhdi!!!

>

>Further comparing these krities of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradaya

>people with our divine AlwAr-Acharya SrI-sUkties is totally an

>impossible comparison.

>

>The idea behind reciting stotras etc is to get bhagavath-anubhavam. If the

>thought comes to the mind that the stotra is composed by a prachanna

>bowdha,

>then it is difficult to get bhagavath-anubhavam. Advaitins do not accept

>brahman as bhagavan!

>

>Let us be vaidikas first. Automatically, we will identify ourself as

>SrI VaishNavas. vaidika-sampradAya-anushtAnam is the best.

>

>Thanks & Regards

>M.S.HARI RamAnuja DAsan (mshari)

>P.S. The aim of this reply is not to offend any music scholar.

>No personal critisism is meant in this reply in any form but

>only the subject is critically presented.

>

>__________________

>Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

>

>Srimate Sri Laksminrisimha Divya Paduka Sevaka

>Srivan Satakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Mahadesikaya Nama:

>

 

______________________________\

_____

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Sriman Lakshminarasimhan,

 

I have forwarded to you an EXCELLENT EXPLANATION by Sri Anand Karalapakkam.

Please read

the same

 

>As adiyen does not know the meaning of telugu/kannada or sanskrit songs, it

>is difficult to decipher the content. Except for a few knowledgeable people,

>mass people would probably be in the same boat as myself. So, is there a

>general dilineation one can do based on the composers themselves?

 

I do face the same problem myself. However, the general dilineation can be done

by

understanding the TRUE Purpose of the composer. The composer(if advaiti) intends

ONLY to

establish the fact that the deity he/she is singing in praise of does not

exsist. Singing

these kind of songs for a vaidika following visithadwaitam is not at all

LOGICAL.

 

There is an exception in the case of tAlapakka annamachArya

 

annamaya was an ardent devote of Sri Athivan SatakOpa jeeyar, the first jeer of

Sri

Sannithi

annamaya praised only thiruvengadan and followed the philosophy preached by sri

athivan

satakOpan. Infact just before suprabatha seva in thirumala, a kIrthi from

annamaya's work

is sung to awaken thiruvengadan. You can observe this seva right before

suprabatha seva

in thirumala.

 

>Are there also music cassettes/CDs of 4000 azhwars pasurams set to krithis

>that are set to music so that people can learn them? Adiyen does know of

>thirupavai set to music by Sri. Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar and some music

>artists have sung some pasurams. Are there any attempts in this regard?

 

There are ongoing attempts to make a CD. TTD had started a divya-prabandham

project long

back. I do not know what was the out come.There are select prabandham available

in audio

format now.

 

Thanks and Regards,

 

Daasan,

 

mAlOlan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

http://im.

[Guest guest]

Dear SrI Malolan Cadambi,

 

Though I am little surprised by your question, let me answer as follows:

As you have mentioned, SrI Adi Sankara etc., have composed such songs not in

its primary meaning but only for their saguNa-brahmOpAsana. We can ignore such

songs from these advaitins safely. The advaitins are prachanna-bowdhas; how

can we expect their songs to be loaded with bhagavath-anubhavam? Our

pUrvAchAryas and AlwArs have poured their divine experiences that they with

the Brahman SrIman NarAyaNa. When we have our pUrvAchArya SrI suktis with us,

a basic question arises: Why should we recite the songs of prachanna-bowdhas

knowing the fact that they are composed by them aiming at advaita, which is

fully against Veda and nyAyas? Someone calling himself as SrI VaishNava argued

with me in an untenable way at Singapore when I told these things. He was

willing to

even recite sowndarya lahari. I proved to him that sowndarya lahari is against

pramANam. Even the bhaja-govindam etc., you have mentioned have so many vague

aspects; of course its overall outline without meaning of certain terms used

in it as per advaitin interpretation is fine. But why should we take it? Even

if the whole bhaja-govindam is proved to be not having any advaita-meaning

without advaitin-interpretation, even then, I will not recite it because, I am

finding it hard to find time even to recite our AachArya SrI sUkties itself

daily! Same is the case with the keerthanas and kritis (musical compositions)

of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradAya people. For example, take the

krithis " karpagamE kaN pArAy " , " parAth para parameswara " , " enna thavam

seidanai " . I am not commenting on any of the personalities; but I would like

to just highlight that these kritis mutually contradict one another; further,

" karpagamE kaN pArAy " and " parAth para parameswara " are 100% against all

pramANams. Will a vaidika recite/sing these type of kritis? If a vaidika still

wants to sing/recite them, then it is his personal wish and no one is there to

stop him. The musical aspect in these things may be great but what about the

meaning of the lyrics? Either we have to treat their krities on bhagavan equal

to the other veda-viridhdha-nyAya-virudhda kruties OR both must be ignored.

Treating both as equal is not at all appropriate. Also, a vaidika

need not take advaitin's kritis on bhagavan because, the author has no actual

regards for " VAsudEvas sarvamithi sa mahAthmA sudurlabha: " simply because the

author is aiming at impossible advaita sidhdi!!!

 

Further comparing these krities of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradaya

people with our divine AlwAr-Acharya SrI-sUkties is totally an

impossible comparison.

 

The idea behind reciting stotras etc is to get bhagavath-anubhavam. If the

thought comes to the mind that the stotra is composed by a prachanna bowdha,

then it is difficult to get bhagavath-anubhavam. Advaitins do not accept

brahman as bhagavan!

 

Let us be vaidikas first. Automatically, we will identify ourself as

SrI VaishNavas. vaidika-sampradAya-anushtAnam is the best.

 

Thanks & Regards

M.S.HARI RamAnuja DAsan (mshari)

P.S. The aim of this reply is not to offend any music scholar.

No personal critisism is meant in this reply in any form but

only the subject is critically presented.

 

__________________

Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

[Guest guest]

Dear Bagavathas,

I want to thank Sri Hari for his explanation on " other works " . It is excellent. There is a saying in Tamil, " Kaiyil Vennai irukka Neikku Alivaanane? " Translated as " when you have butter in your hand why run around for Ghee " . That is how I felt when someone asked me few years back to learn some of the other slokams. Unfortunately in schools (especially like Sri Ramakrishna Mission School) you end of learning some of them unless one goes to Ahobila Matam school.

Regarding kritis, Annamacharya's works should be to our sampradhyam. Sri Annamacharya is Sishya of Adhi Van Satakopan. All his works is not published yet. I am not sure about others who are mentioned in the list.

Regarding comparing works or quoting from others, I feel it should be left to our acharyas or by those who have gone through the kalakshepam under Acharya's feet and has the blessing to talk about it. The reason is that they know the context and clearly present it in that context. I remember Azhagiya Singer in one of his upanyasam, I think regarding Mantraraja patha sthothram, quoting from Shankara and cautioning everybody not to read much more than what he mentioned in that context. Also any school trying to quote from Veda has to accept Sriman Narayana as ultimate and that is the reason it is " baja Govindham " and not " baja sivayam " though many present day advaities may not accept it.

Adiyen Dasan,

Kannan

 

" Lakshmi N. Srinivasa " <lsriniva wrote:

Respected members of the net,Adiyen has a followup question on the lines of songs on saguna brahman.Adiyen would like to know how to classify krithis as advaitic or vishishtadvaitic? For example, lot of krithis on perumal and thayar have been sung by Saint Thiagaraja on Lord Rama, Sri muthuswami dikshitar on sriman narayana (adiyen is ignorant about Shyama Sastrigal), Saint Annamacharya, Saint Purandaradasa, Oothukadu venkatasubbaiyer, and so on.As adiyen does not know the meaning of telugu/kannada or sanskrit songs, it is difficult to decipher the content. Except for a few knowledgeable people, mass people would probably be in the same boat as myself. So, is there a general dilineation one can do based on the composers themselves?Are there also music cassettes/CDs of 4000 azhwars pasurams set to krithis that are set to music so that people can learn them? Adiyen does know of thirupavai set to music by Sri. Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar and some music artists have sung some pasurams. Are there any attempts in this regard?Vasaka Dosha KshantavyahaAcharyan thiruvadigale charanam.Adiyen Ramanuja DasanLakshminarasimhan S.>M.S.HARI Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari >mcadambi, mshariCC: >Re: Songs on Saguna Brahman>4 Dec 00 19:23:42 SGT>>Dear SrI Malolan Cadambi,>>Though I am little surprised by your question, let me answer as follows:>As you have mentioned, SrI Adi Sankara etc., have composed such songs not >in>its primary meaning but only for their saguNa-brahmOpAsana. We can ignore >such>songs from these advaitins safely. The advaitins are prachanna-bowdhas; how>can we expect their songs to be loaded with bhagavath-anubhavam? Our>pUrvAchAryas and AlwArs have poured their divine experiences that they with>the Brahman SrIman NarAyaNa. When we have our pUrvAchArya SrI suktis with >us,>a basic question arises: Why should we recite the songs of >prachanna-bowdhas>knowing the fact that they are composed by them aiming at advaita, which is>fully against Veda and nyAyas? Someone calling himself as SrI VaishNava >argued>with me in an untenable way at Singapore when I told these things. He was>willing to>even recite sowndarya lahari. I proved to him that sowndarya lahari is >against>pramANam. Even the bhaja-govindam etc., you have mentioned have so many >vague>aspects; of course its overall outline without meaning of certain terms >used>in it as per advaitin interpretation is fine. But why should we take it? >Even>if the whole bhaja-govindam is proved to be not having any advaita-meaning>without advaitin-interpretation, even then, I will not recite it because, I >am>finding it hard to find time even to recite our AachArya SrI sUkties itself>daily! Same is the case with the keerthanas and kritis (musical >compositions)>of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradAya people. For example, take the>krithis " karpagamE kaN pArAy " , " parAth para parameswara " , " enna thavam>seidanai " . I am not commenting on any of the personalities; but I would >like>to just highlight that these kritis mutually contradict one another; >further,> " karpagamE kaN pArAy " and " parAth para parameswara " are 100% against all>pramANams. Will a vaidika recite/sing these type of kritis? If a vaidika >still>wants to sing/recite them, then it is his personal wish and no one is there >to>stop him. The musical aspect in these things may be great but what about >the>meaning of the lyrics? Either we have to treat their krities on bhagavan >equal>to the other veda-viridhdha-nyAya-virudhda kruties OR both must be ignored.>Treating both as equal is not at all appropriate. Also, a vaidika>need not take advaitin's kritis on bhagavan because, the author has no >actual>regards for " VAsudEvas sarvamithi sa mahAthmA sudurlabha: " simply because >the>author is aiming at impossible advaita sidhdi!!!>>Further comparing these krities of advaitins and other non-SrI-sampradaya>people with our divine AlwAr-Acharya SrI-sUkties is totally an>impossible comparison.>>The idea behind reciting stotras etc is to get bhagavath-anubhavam. If the>thought comes to the mind that the stotra is composed by a prachanna >bowdha,>then it is difficult to get bhagavath-anubhavam. Advaitins do not accept>brahman as bhagavan!>>Let us be vaidikas first. Automatically, we will identify ourself as>SrI VaishNavas. vaidika-sampradAya-anushtAnam is the best.>>Thanks & Regards>M.S.HARI RamAnuja DAsan (mshari)>P.S. The aim of this reply is not to offend any music scholar.>No personal critisism is meant in this reply in any form but>only the subject is critically presented.>>__________________>Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1>>Srimate Sri Laksminrisimha Divya Paduka Sevaka>Srivan Satakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Mahadesikaya Nama:>_Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.comSrimate Sri Laksminrisimha Divya Paduka SevakaSrivan Satakopa Sri Narayana Yatindra Mahadesikaya Nama:

Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.

[Guest guest]

Namo Narayana,

 

This note is a slight elaboration of what u had previously mentioned.

In regards to acquiring a CD/ audio tape of Divya prabhanadham, from what little

success i have had, its difficult to find one that encompasses the entire 4000

pasurams that have been set to the particular ragam/note. However, i have

managed to get atleast 4 different tapes.

a) Title: Alwar Pasurangal (2 tapes) sung by Bombay Sisters

Covers selected pasurams from Thirupallandu (first two), Thirumalai (2),

Kanninunsiruthambhu (atleast 3), Amalanathipiran (3), and Vadinen varunthinen

(atleast 2), and there are about 4 more. If interested i can mail u the details

later.

Songs from tape 2 are to do with Periya azhwars works, bulk being from

Neerattam, Poochootal, Kaapidal.

 

b) Pasurams on Thiruvenkatamudaiyan; sung by Bombay sisters

These are selected pasurams addressed to Thiruvenkatamudaiyan, if i am not

mistaken this is released thru TTD.

 

c) Nachiyar Thirumozhi,

Selected verses from Nachiyar Thirumozhi

 

d) Alwar Pasurangal sung by Smt.Vedavalli

Covers selected verses from Thiruvaimozhi, most of these verses are from those u

recite as part of the Nithya anusanthanam. The other isde of the tape covers

pasurams from other Alwars.

 

As seen from the list, the pasurams have been picked at random, and chances

are u will not find more than 3 pasurams from a particular decad of the Alwar's

composition.

 

From a personal standpoint, my interest in Divya prabhandham came about mainly

from listening to the first two audio tapes. Listening to " Aalamamarththin ilai

mel " always brings tears to my eyes. I used to prefer all lokams/stotrams that

were in sanskrit, since my tamizh still leaves a lot to be desired. However,

listening to these tapes over and over, fortunately helped me appreciate the

4000DP, and now have a higher priority. Sometimes i wish there was a complete

set of all pasurams rendered with in one tape. But i am glad to have what i get

now. The quality of these tapes are not the greatest.

 

U can find these tapes in most audio stores that sell devotional music.

Hope the above helps.

 

adiyen, ramanuja dasan

(srinivasan)