Few questions

[Guest guest]

At 09:50 AM 11/7/2002 -0800, K.S.Venkataraghavan wrote:

 

> > At a more unified theory level, non-controversial people would say

> > that " Nirgunam " and " Sagunam " are like the 2-sides of a paper.

 

 

>--- I would like to know what the contreversy is all about..and who the

>controversial and non controversial people are ???.. -

 

 

Dear Sri Venkat,

 

You ask, " Who are these controversial people? "

 

In the age of the ubiquitous e-mail groups self styled experts

with feigned modesty are dime a dozen. Their comments are

often preceded by disclaimers of the sort, " I possess no qualification "

or " I have very little knowledge " , etc. Yet, they never let their

admitted lack of knowledge or qualification stand in the way

of presenting, or diminish their absolute confidence in, their

self taught opinions as self evident facts.

 

For them, everything is relative. Everyone is right in his or her

own way. Every thought has legitimacy by the very fact it has

been conceived. These are the people who are non-controvertial.

Those who stand for traditional principles are controversial.

Anyone who conveys a traditional view taught by sadAcArya

is a controvertial person.

 

-- adiyEn

[Guest guest]

Dear Pradeep

 

While I dont want to comment on your analogy but still would like and

love to add few rejoinders .. please read further...

 

> At a more unified theory level, non-controversial people would say

> that " Nirgunam " and " Sagunam " are like the 2-sides of a paper.

_______________

 

--- I would like to know what the contreversy is all about..and who the

controversial

and non controversial people are ???.. -

 

______________________________\

_____

 

> Just as the paper definitely has 2-sides and appears based on which >

> side and how we look at it, Lord also is both " Nirgunam " (wihtout

> Rajas,and Tamas gunas) and yet " Sagunam " posessing

Ananta-Kalyaana-Gunams. >

_____-

 

There are some fallacies (as I see) in the above ....

 

So I shall put them as questions and intend to start off another thread....

 

1) What do the terms Nirgunam and Sagunam exactly Mean??

2) Are they antonyms??

3) As according to the statement above does it mean that the absence of

Rajas and Tamas gunas alone is nirgunam??

4) So what about Sathva Guna?? Why the same hasnt been included(listed).. ??

5) If Satva Guna is not included does it mean presence of (Sudha) satvam

is Nirgunam??

6) If it is a typo and so you feel that Satva guna must have been

included(listed).. can we take that absence of such gunas themselves

as a way to to distinguish between a Saguna entity and Nirguna entity??

7) If so dont you feel absence of " Gunams " itself a Gunam for a

Nirguna entity??

 

_________

 

> (the last paragraph is not my personal view, but I have heard the

> above being said by quite a few pravachana-kartaas)

>

> Radhe Krishna

>

> -- Pradeep

 

------- IMHO the content and saaraamsam of pravachanams by many

pravachana karthas are heavily dependednt on time place and audience.

you may see at times the same pravachana kartha would be establishing

different view (s) from one place to the other.

 

regards

Venkat

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Dileepan Swami

 

Pardon adiyen ...Adiyen have also done such dissembled acts at times

while posting on bakthi list..In the sense adiyen thought it is a

default thing to mention explicitly the following in any mails to

bakthi list..

 

a)Starting the mail with Dear Bagavadhothaamas....

b)Please pardon adiyen for any mistakes.. ..

c)adiyen might have commited some mistakes learned members

please point them out and correct the same..

d)....adiyen is not a learned one

blah blah blaah..

 

But adiyen have realised few things later and have kept in adiyens

mind the following

 

1)That it is not really necessary to address everyone there as

" Bagavadhothammas " .

 

2)Adiyen need not be explicitly ane purposefully be humble and mention

the same in any(all) mails to the group..

 

3)By not be explicity humble doesnt mean one is proud or arrogant.

 

4)Recollect what Saashtram says about the Lakshana of a

Bhaagavadhothaman, a Bramha Jignaasu and being humble.

 

Adiyen have realised that this is really a over kill...

 

As stated by dheval most of this is nothing but " Spot Bandha/Gallery

Shot " ....

 

Now having said the above oflate Adiyen is really pained to see such

views in bakthi list [some against the sampradhaayam as well

advertently or inadvertently whatever may be the case] ....

 

It is not that adiyen cannot stand the same but that adiyen fail to

see what is the relevence of science or " realativity theory " and

" unified field theory " here...or to mention a non Sampradhaayic view

(not as a doubt) but has a statement or assertion.

 

Adiyen keep wondering about the background of such mails..

 

As a matter of reference adiyen would like to draw kind attention of

members in the list (who may or may not be members of bakthi list to.

please browse through the archives and adiyen wrote earlier this year

regarding " the why of creation "

 

bhakti-list/message/15441

bhakti-list/message/15442

 

Adiyen referred to few works and few " learned " people and tried to

recollect that adiyen grasped and learnt from elders.Adiyen also did

some digging on the net regarding this " Scientific " thinking.

 

In these articles adiyen mentioned in a " nayamaana " way that it is

really futile to discuss about science and Vedanthic Vedanthic

Sidaantham together beyond an extent(or even to a small extent in

fact) and bring science to Vedanthic fold or vice versa.

 

Such type of reliance or inclination towards science (of late computer

science) have resulted in many " abathams " ..

 

One of the main fore-runners to such comparisons is a Mahathmaa

Maahanubaavar (who authored a book called " Deivathin Kural " )

(One of Swami's kainkaryams was to compare Satva raja and Thamas to

Infra red Ultra Violet rays etc based on the colurs ascribed to them

by some puranas)

 

There ia naother thing adiyen wish to add..

 

Incidentally while browsing bakthi archive adiyen stumbled upon few

mails discussing about Thooriyaa Ashramaa (Sanyaasa ashrama) Dharma..

many putting their views across.. and thus taking the topic in an

entirey different direction.

 

bhakti-list/message/14550

 

Follow the above thread closely..

 

Adiyen dont know whom they are trying to satisfy by giving such

answers.....

 

While such enthusiastic people must be encouraged to a learn a lot and

understand more at the same time they must be warned that

over-enthusiasm will/may result in " abathams " .

 

If they shoot back by saying that " only by doing mistakes once can

learn " ...adiyen would love to rejoind that doing mistakes is the mode

to learn always.

 

If they still say that the reason for ignornace is Sampradahaayam is

confined and not many have laccess to the Poorvaacharya granthams....

 

For which adiyen would request them to approach a " Saadaacharyan " ..

 

This is your peronsnal search...and your personal endeavour to search

and decide on a sadaachaaryan.. Keep Swamy Desikans Slokam

" Sidham Sath Sampradhaayey ... " while searchin an achaaryan.

 

regards

Dhaasanu Dhaasan

VenkataRaaghava Dhaasan

[Guest guest]

SrI:

 

Dear SrIman Raghavan: I will be happy to

join with other bhakthAs to answer your questions .

Here is my input.

 

AshtAnga VimAnam is the name of the VimAnam

for the PerumAL at ThirukkUdal (Madhurai

Koodalazhakar), who presented Himself before

PeriyAzhwAr to recieve the MangaLAsAsanam of

ThiruppallANDu.

 

SrI Sowmya NaarAyaNan of ThirukkOshtiyUr has

His vimAnam known as AshtAnga VimAnam. The links

of this dhivya dEsam to AchArya RaamAnuja and our sampradhAyam

is well recorded. The other dhivya dEsam that we can not

see with our human eyes is Parama Padham (SadhA pasyanthi

Sooraya:). That dhivya desam also has AshtAnga VimAnam.

 

AshtAnga VimAnam literally means ashta angams ,

the VimAnam with 8 Parts or limbs or features . The number 8 has

special significance in our darsanam (e.g) AshtAkshari

or Moola mantram , AshtAnga yOgam . The Lord inside is

AshtAkshari PrathibhAdhya SrIman NaarAyaNan. The VimAnam at

ThiruvAli dhivya desam is indeed known (named) as

AshtAkshara VimAnam. PraNavam is an integral part

of Moola Manthram . Inview of its centrality,

the VimAnam at SrIrangam is revered as PranavAkruthi

VimAnam ( of the form of PraNavam) .

 

Usually the names of the VimAnams have connections to

the consecrated Lord presiding at that Dhivya dEsam.

Examples are at Thirukkadigai ( ShOLingar) ,

the presiding Lord is Narasimhan . hence the VimAnam

is endearingly recognized as " Simha GhOshtAkruthi

VimAnam or the sound embodiment of Lord Narasimhan's

Garjanai. At the AhObila Dhivya dEsam , the VimAnam

is Guhai VimAnam . The Lord's residence inside as

antharyAmi Brahman is perhaps indicated in this hilly

dhivya desam.There are other explanations as well

that one can think of.

 

There may be instances , where the same name will

be associated with the VimAnams of two different

Dhivya dEsams: Example is provided by Kaanchi

PeraruLALan ThirukkaditthAnam Adhbhutha NaarAyaNan's

vimAnam . Both are revered as PuNyakOti VimAnam.

Vaamana VimAnam is the name chosen for both the

VimAnams at ThirukkaLvanUr and ThirukkAragam

dhivya desams.Other examples are KalyANa VimAnams

at Thiruvidventhai and UrayUr(ThirukkOzhi) dhivya

desams.SrIvaramangai (VaanamAmalai )and SiRuppuliyUr

dhivya desams have the VimAnams with the same name,

Nandha Vardhana VimAnam.The name Kanaka VimAnam

is shared by more than one dhivya desam.Ditto

for SrIkara VimAnam . I would leave it to BhakthAs

to find out which dhivya desams have this VimAnam.

Ditto for Soundharya VimAnam and VijayakOti VimAnam.

 

ThirukkAvaLampAdi dhivya desa vimAnam is

worshipped as SvayambhU or self-manifested vimAnam.

 

For Swamy NammAzhwAr , Govindha Naamam (KaNNan)is very

dear. hence the name for the VimAnam at AzhwAr's birth place

is named " Govindha VimAnam " .

 

Some times sacred flowers dear to ThAyAr are

associated with the names of Dhivya desa VimAnam :

KamalAkruthi VimAnam ( ThirukkaNDiyUr), Uthpala

VimAnam ( ThirukkaNNangudi) , Kumudha VimAnam

( Thiruttholaivilimangalam), MandhAra VimAnam

( Thirunandhipura ViNnagaram).

 

Vedic links are given to some VimAnams >

I will leave it to you to identify which

dhivya desams ahve those Vedic links:

Purushasooktha VimAnam , Veda VimAnam ,

vedasAra VimAnam (Two dhivya desams),

PraNava VimAnam .

 

The VimAnam for my Kula dhaivam (ThiruviNnagarappan)

is Unalloyed bliss vimAnam ( SuddhAnandha VimAnam ) and that

of His younger brother on top of the Seven hills is

Aanandha Nilaya VimAnam. You can hear the resonances.

 

Finally, Thirupparamapadham ( TirunAdu) of

Vaikunta Naathan has the VimAnam known as

AnanathAnga VimAnam. Anantha is infinite ,

limitless . That VimAnam is infinite in its

auspicious Sudhda sathvA aspects.

 

I will address your other questions on srushti

(Vyashti, Samashti) and Sub-vyUhams in the next note .

The srishti concepts are complex and are covered by

Upanishads. The best route is to access a sdadAachAryan

and perform KaalakshEpam under their sacred feet.

The more one writes, the more questions will arise and

it may not be easy to tacle in an imperfect medium as

Internet.

 

With best Wishes for continuing your inquiries,

V.Sadagopan

 

At 03:28 PM 4/3/03 +0530, you wrote:

> " Lakshminatha samarambham Nada yamuna madyamam

>asmadhaachaarya paryantham vande guruparamparam "

>

>Dear Bhakthas,

>

>I have few interesting(May be) questions to ask.

>What is meant by Ashtanga Vimanam. What are other types of Vimanams?

>What is Vyashti and Samashti Srushti?

>What are sub divisions in the four Vyuha Murthys - VaasudEva , SamkarshNa ,

>PradhyumnA and Aniruddha?

>

>Could any one explain these to all who read the mail??

>

>Narasimha Raghavan