Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 sri: Dear Devotees: Please accept adiyEN's humble pranams. Sri Vikram, these days normally, adiyen stays away from discussions as there is so much to learn and experience by HIS grace, your mail got me going on my thought process. You Wrote: :> Lipner, also upholds the view that sudras will have to wait :> additional lifetimes to get moksham. Vedic knowledge is an ABSOLUTE THIS IS NOT TRUE, As PER SRI RAMANUJA and his works, please read Sri Saranagathy Gadya by Sri Ramanuja (with exaplnations) ALL LIVING BEINGS (NOT JUST HUMANS) are allowed moksha regardless their caste, creed or specie. :> Also, prapatti was a concept developed fully by later Vaishnavas--not :> Acarya Ramanuja himself. His Gita exegesis states nowhere that sudras :> can get moksham in this lifetime. The way out of it is (perhaps) to No No You got that wrong, Yes Acharya Ramanuja had the concept of Saranagahty foully documented and showed us how to, by HIS grace and sambhandam(relationship) only we are all able to go to moksha today. You are confusing, Bharanyasam as a seperate procedure, (apart from surrender, Samashreyanam) has not been detailed by ramanuja or practiced by his immediate disciples (This is not the same as surrender), Surrender (saranagathy) (is open to all beings, at any time that the being is ready, through a qualified acharyan) Sri Bhashya was written for the VEDIC educated elite, (are any of us in that category today to understand this fully as intended) ======================================================= All the above is my personal opinion only, learned scholars may want to add their points and correct adiyen where appropriate, adiyEN Ramanuja Dasan Mukundan V. Pattangi www.radioramanuja.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Dear Sri Vikram, Thanks for your kind note. While it is true that the concept of prapatti is not directly mentioned in Sri Ramanuja's philosophical works, including the Sri BhAshya, I do not think that we should take this to mean that this concept did not exist during his time, or that he himself did not practice it. Indeed, Ramanuja's saranAgathi gadyam is regarded by our AchAryas to be Ramanuja's paradigmatic act of surrender on behalf of all souls, caste, race, gender or creed notwithstanding. It has been suggested by some members of academia that Ramanuja consciously chose not to mention prapatti, what to speak of the eligibility of non-dvija members of society to to perform it, because it is something that would be more suited towards those within the SriVaishnava community who would have have had more direct exposure to what is a rather subtle concept. Being in Sanskrit, works such as the Sri BhAshyam, the VedArtha Sangraham, and the Gita BhAshyam, would be readily available to all members of mainstream Brahmin society. As such, in order to educate such individuals, and in order to properly defend his philosophical position, Ramanuja would have had to have draw from a sphere of reference that they would understand, namely, from the perspective of commonly accepted concepts found in sAstra and vEdanta. Consequently, from this view, as stated previously, the path of yOga would have to have been defended as something that could only be followed by the so-called " upper castes " with sudras having to wait until for a suitable subsequent life. This view is defended even by present day AchAryas from the standpoint that the path of bhakthi yOga, with its ancillaries of jnAnam and karma, can only be performed by qualified members of Brahmin society. Looking solely into his Sanskrit philosophical works, however, would provide us with little or no explanation for Ramanuja's overarching contribution of opening the temples to the sudras and harijans, his formalization of the AzhvArs' verses into the daily rituals in homes and temples, and in his welcoming of disciples from all communities into his fold. Since I am not an expert by any means on this issue, I would like to suggest that in addition to your readings into the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja, you consider perusing the works of Dr. Vasudha Narayanan, Dr. Patricia Mumme, and others who are making the effort to understand Ramanuja within the cultural context of SriVaishnavism. Their works offer deeper insights into the role of the AzhvArs in Ramanuja's teachings, as well as the role of prapatti in the teachers who preceded and followed Ramanuja. adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Mohan - " Vikram Masson " <vikrammasson Saturday, March 08, 2003 4:39 PM Re: A Question about Ramanuja > Namaskaaram, > > Sri Mohan Sagar: > > Thank you for a detailed, heart-warming reply! Since I posted this, I > have been doing some research of my own. It seems a white scholar, > Lipner, also upholds the view that sudras will have to wait > additional lifetimes to get moksham. Vedic knowledge is an ABSOLUTE > prerequiste to moksam in Sri Bhasya, the Puranas and Itihaas are not > enough, and sudras by caste are categorically debarred from the Vedic > knowledge. He makes an exception for Vidura BUT the exception is > based on previous Samskaras! > > Also, prapatti was a concept developed fully by later Vaishnavas--not > Acarya Ramanuja himself. His Gita exegesis states nowhere that sudras > can get moksham in this lifetime. The way out of it is (perhaps) to > look at the liberality and love that acarya Ramanuja displayed in his > own lifetime and to remember that sudras too eventually will get > moksa. > > With Love, > > Vikram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Sri Sagar; I will contact Dr. Vasudha Narayan in the near future, thank you. Someone else has recommended her works. Also I am aware that non- Indian scholars tend to view things through the prism of their own western culture. By the way, I did not say that sudras were not entitled to moksham, just not as " sudras " according to the strict reading of Sri Bhasysa, and I am also aware that subsequent acaryas have made it emphatically clear that Vedic knowledge isnt a prerequisite for moksham. Also I dont think its as simple as " discrimination " , as we know that non-Brahmins played very important roles in Vaishnavism even in the 12th and 13th centuries. I hope I'm not sounding like a Dravidianist, that is not my intention! In a way it is GOOD I brought this up because many people interested in Indian philosophy tend to read surveys, like Dr. Radhakrishnan's, and I doubt he had an agenda (I may be wrong). Love and Regards, Vikram , " Mohan Sagar " <mmsagar@e...> wrote: > Dear Sri Vikram, > > Thanks for your kind note. > > While it is true that the concept of prapatti is not directly mentioned in > Sri Ramanuja's philosophical works, including the Sri BhAshya, I do not > think that we should take this to mean that this concept did not exist > during his time, or that he himself did not practice it. Indeed, Ramanuja's > saranAgathi gadyam is regarded by our AchAryas to be Ramanuja's paradigmatic > act of surrender on behalf of all souls, caste, race, gender or creed > notwithstanding. > > It has been suggested by some members of academia that Ramanuja consciously > chose not to mention prapatti, what to speak of the eligibility of non-dvija > members of society to to perform it, because it is something that would be > more suited towards those within the SriVaishnava community who would have > have had more direct exposure to what is a rather subtle concept. Being in > Sanskrit, works such as the Sri BhAshyam, the VedArtha Sangraham, and the > Gita BhAshyam, would be readily available to all members of mainstream > Brahmin society. As such, in order to educate such individuals, and in > order to properly defend his philosophical position, Ramanuja would have had > to have draw from a sphere of reference that they would understand, namely, > from the perspective of commonly accepted concepts found in sAstra and > vEdanta. Consequently, from this view, as stated previously, the path of > yOga would have to have been defended as something that could only be > followed by the so-called " upper castes " with sudras having to wait until > for a suitable subsequent life. This view is defended even by present day > AchAryas from the standpoint that the path of bhakthi yOga, with its > ancillaries of jnAnam and karma, can only be performed by qualified members > of Brahmin society. > > Looking solely into his Sanskrit philosophical works, however, would > provide us with little or no explanation for Ramanuja's overarching > contribution of opening the temples to the sudras and harijans, his > formalization of the AzhvArs' verses into the daily rituals in homes and > temples, and in his welcoming of disciples from all communities into his > fold. > > Since I am not an expert by any means on this issue, I would like to suggest > that in addition to your readings into the philosophy of Sri Ramanuja, you > consider perusing the works of Dr. Vasudha Narayanan, Dr. Patricia Mumme, > and others who are making the effort to understand Ramanuja within the > cultural context of SriVaishnavism. Their works offer deeper insights into > the role of the AzhvArs in Ramanuja's teachings, as well as the role of > prapatti in the teachers who preceded and followed Ramanuja. > > adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan > Mohan > > - > " Vikram Masson " <vikrammasson> > > Saturday, March 08, 2003 4:39 PM > Re: A Question about Ramanuja > > > > Namaskaaram, > > > > Sri Mohan Sagar: > > > > Thank you for a detailed, heart-warming reply! Since I posted this, I > > have been doing some research of my own. It seems a white scholar, > > Lipner, also upholds the view that sudras will have to wait > > additional lifetimes to get moksham. Vedic knowledge is an ABSOLUTE > > prerequiste to moksam in Sri Bhasya, the Puranas and Itihaas are not > > enough, and sudras by caste are categorically debarred from the Vedic > > knowledge. He makes an exception for Vidura BUT the exception is > > based on previous Samskaras! > > > > Also, prapatti was a concept developed fully by later Vaishnavas-- not > > Acarya Ramanuja himself. His Gita exegesis states nowhere that sudras > > can get moksham in this lifetime. The way out of it is (perhaps) to > > look at the liberality and love that acarya Ramanuja displayed in his > > own lifetime and to remember that sudras too eventually will get > > moksa. > > > > With Love, > > > > Vikram > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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