Dating of Thirruppavai from paasurams 3 & 4 - Please recalculate Shreemathi Jayasree !!!

December 20, 2008

Shri:

Dear Shreemathi Jayasree

Adiyane's pranaams.

Adiyane admired at your writings trying to collect all the possible words from Thiruppavai.

and recalling the period.

Why devareer struggle So much. !!

Since Adiyane Belongs to Srivilliputtur and virtually rolled into each and every

pillar in Srivilliputtur. we used to play (odi pidichi.., !! ) game in the Vada pathra sayee temple.

we used to climb the Old temple tower (not renovated ) when we are young !!!

Let me give some hints ..., and from there ..., Please do some Arithmetic calculations.

***********************************************************************

1. There is a poem written by Kambar praising the Beauty of Temple Tower..

( Kambar belongs to 7th Century. !!! ) The Poem is still engraved in the temple tower.. !!

This Temple tower was built by Periazhwar !!

2. The remain (Arts) of Pandyan King Vallabhadevan was still there near Anaimalai

( Madurai Thirumogur (10.1) ..!!) They say it is during 4th to 5 th century A.D !!!

(Vallabhadevan Pandyan , Andal, Periazhwar all belong to same period)

Pandyan king being very pious has lots of respect for Periazhwar. !!!

3. There is one Pandyan King who has gone upto Himalayas and punched the Fish symbol in the

Mountains.

>> Parupathathu Kayal poritha Pandiar kulapathipol ..., (Ref Periazhwar 5.4 )

There is a Song by M.G.R .., which also says somewhat like above ..,

Imayathil yeri Meen kodi poritha Pandyan mannan Pol...., !!!

so Periazhwar's Era is after this Himalaya climbed pandyan King.., !! It looks like .., in those days Pandyan Kings

are very honest., brave , Generous , Pious Rulers !!!

Can devareer please use your IQ and show us a Approximate Figure. .!!

thanks

Adiyane..,

Marans Dog.

Jayasree Saranathan <jayasree.saranathanoppiliappan Cc: Dr. Sadagopan <yennappanFriday, December 19, 2008 7:23:07 AM Dating of Thirruppavai from paasurams 3 & 4

Vedas contain knowledge of everything under the Sun and Beyond.

Similarly, Thiruppavai which is hailed as "Vedamanaitthukkum Vitthu"

contains many concepts of worldly wisdom

in addition to wisdom of the spiritual kind.

Some such concepts as enshrined in Thiruppavai

help us to locate the time period when it was composed.

The well-known information on the period of Thiruppavai is

contained in the verse 13 (VeLLi yezhundu Vyaazham urangittru)

indicating a celestial happening of simultaneous

rising and setting of Venus and Jupiter respectively

in the pre-dawn time of that day she composed that verse.

Based on this information,

Dr M.RajamAnikkanAr had identified 4 time periods,

600 AD, 731 AD, 885 AD and 886 AD.

He arrived at the probable time as 885 AD or 886 AD,

based on the near opposition of Venus and Jupiter

at pre dawn in the month of mArgazhi in those two years.

But his analysis was done at a time when computer software was not developed.

It will be a useful exercise if some one with the present day know-how

explore the time of this celestial happening.

There are other information too, with which

we can roughly arrive at the time of Thiruppavai.

They are discussed below and can be incorporated

if someone woks on a software on the sky map of those years.

Of importance are two information,

one, on the thithis and

the other in the probable days of GarbOttam as indicated in the paasurams.

The thithi factor.

Thiruppavai opens with the description of the Full moon

in the pre-dawn sky of the first day.

The day was a 'Mathi nirainda nannAL'

It must have been the day of Pournami continuing even after sun-rise.

In the month of Maargashira,

pournami occurs when moon is in the star, Mrigashirsha. .If the moon is in Mrigashirsha on Maargazhi pournami,

then the sun must have been in Pooradam (pooravashada) .

This is crucial information.

Because today Margazhi begins when the sun enters Moola star.

Whereas the sun had entered Poorada in Andal's time,

on the first day of Maargazhi.

This is ahead of to-day's location by 13 degrees and 20 minutes!

(that is the duration of a star – the distance between moolam and pooradam )

The reason for this discrepancy is that

the precession of the equinox is taking place continuously at the rate of 1 degree

for every 72 years ( 50.24 seconds / year).

This information helps us in calculating the year

in which Andal had composed Thiruppavai.

Today the precession is at 6 degrees, 40 minutes and 24 seconds

in the constellation of Pisces.

At the rate of 72 years for a degree,

we can calculate how many years had preceded for 13-20 degrees.

This comes to 960 years.

That is, the occurrence of Full moon on the first day of Maargazhi

could have happened 960 years ago.

But the Full moon does not happen in the exact degree of Jyeshta.

If we give allowance for 1 pada duration (3-20 degrees),

that is, Full moon happening anywhere in the 4th pada of Jyeshta,

we arrive at a figure 1200 years from now.

That means Andal had lived anywhere between 808 AD to 1048 AD.

Here we have to apply the Vunus – Jupiter rise and fall on a Krishna paksha dwaadasi ('Pullin vaai' pasuram coming on dwadasi if the first day is assumed to be pournami).

Going by this, we can say that the vernal equinox was

in Ashwini 2 nd pada in Andal's time.

Today it is in Utthrattaadi (uttara bhadrapada) 1 st pada.

Applying this calculation,

we can say that in Krishna's time, the equinox was in Kritthikai 4th pada.

GarbOttam.

Let us see the other information that Andal is giving us.

GarbOttam means conception of rains or pregnancy of clouds.

This is a topic by itself in ancient Samhita works.

Brihat samhita contains information on this.

In Brihat samhita, Varahamihira has given detailed accounts of this

as an ancient wisdom given by sages such as

Vasishta, Parashara, Kashyapa and Garga.

Varahamihira has reproduced the information from the works of these sages

which are lost now.

GarbOttam can be understood as "El nino" in today's language.

The movement of the sun in the star Pooradam in the month of Maargazhi

are the GarbOttam days or the days

that determine the rainfall for the rest of the year.

Interestingly, the El nino also is observed during this period only.

GarbOttam contains many information which are unknown to El nino scientists.

This year, GarbOttam or Conception days of rainfall

starts on 28th December and ends on 10th January..

It had happened in the very first 13 days of the month

in which Thiruppavai was composed.

Because the sun had traversed Pooradam

either from the first day of Marrgazhi or a couple of days before that.

The main reason for this benefit is that Pooradam

is lorded by Varuna bhagavan and

Sun's movement in that star reveals the nature of rain later.

That is perhaps the reason why paavai nonbu is also said to bring rainfall.

The Paavai nonbu as was done in Tami lands

had a history as far back as 5000 years ago.

This is known from Sangam texts.

Young girls had performed this nonbu which concluded

with a worship of Manmathan in the month of Thai.

The Prayer was to get a good husband (like Krishna / Thirumaal ).

Married woman had done a similar kind of nonbu

with a concluding prayer to Manmatha for a long a life for husband.

This is known from Silappadhikaram.

Even men folk had conducted some austerities in the month of Maargazhi

and concluded with a prayer to Thirumaal for fulfillment of their

wishes for fame, prosperity, success, long life and

release from karma-vinai for this and next birth.

This is indicated by Andal in Ankan maa Gyaalam paasuram

wherein she has stated how the kings waited

for His darshan after dip in the sangam.

The line 'sangam iruppar pOl vandhu thalai-p-peithOm'

is the same description found in Silappadhikaram and Paripadal

in describing a nonbu that is performed at the conclusion of which

a dip is taken in Sangam (where the river enters the sea)

of Kaveri or Vaigai followed by a worship to Manmathan.

In all these occasions, there is an underlying benefit

connected to this nonbu.

That is about good rainfall –

both monthly and yearly spell is assured.

The 3 spells every month and

good rainfall in the rainy season.

The worship in this period therefore comes with a blessing for good rain fall.

Andal begins her nonbu with a sankalp in the first two pasurams.

In the first pasuram,

the time, the people who perform the nonbu and

the goal of the nonbu are described.

In the second paasuram, she goes on to lay down

the dos and don'ts to be followed by the performers.

But from that, she goes on to the next important feature of the nonbu,

the universal benefit - that of bountiful rainfall.

It must be remembered that even in Thirukkural,

after the initial prayer (kadavul vaazhtthu),

the next prayer is for good rainfall (vaan sirappu).

Because the world sustains only by water.

The concern for the world was prime in the minds of the people of this land.

Andal exhibits that exemplary Sanatanic mind.

The 3rd pasuram tells what happens

when they perform the nonbu,

"Theengindri naadellam thingal mummari peidu"

The 4 th pasuram tells about GarbOttam –

the initial conditions that must happen so that

it would rain plentifully in the season.

From Brihat samhita we come to know that conducive conditions

for pregnancy of clouds in this month,

as aided by the sun in Pooradam

will result in good rainfall after 195 days.

Andal's mention about rainfall in the 3rd and 4 th pasuram,

soon after her sankalpa,

is an additional proof that Maargazhi began in her time

with the sun in Pooradam!

That is 1000 years behind our present times!

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December 21, 2008

Piecing together the different information to arrive at a

single truth is what dating is all about.

Literary sources, inscriptions and astronomical dating in

the case of time periods running into a millennia are the reliable methods of

dating.

Even in such laborious attempts, we arrive at wrong

conclusions if we do not incorporate cross checking from different sources and

different branches of knowledge.

Failing to acknowledge it by some arm chair talks will not

help.

An example on how failure to incorporate different sources

of knowledge will end up in a disaster is the way the date of Mahabharata has

now been largely accepted from the analysis of the 13 day eclipse before that.

The popular analysis by Sri Narahari Achar who constructed the sky map of that

eclipse failed to cross check with astrology. The dating assumed among 4 information, that Mars

was in retrogression in Jyeshta on the day of the 13th day lunar eclipse. The sun also was in

Jyeshta, while the moon was in Taurus.

The retrogression of Mars is an impossible one because retrogression

starts for the three outer planets such as Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, only when the

sun moves from 5th to 9th sings from them. With sun in the same sign

as Mars, Mars can not go retrograde!

But assuming this, the sky map was cast and date located is now accepted as most agreeable.

In this case, a jyothsihic knowledge and analysis of the

information given by Vyasa would have averted this mis-calculation.

So dating is not an easy task as to say I saw this and I saw

that - without any backing.

In the present case in discussion, the absence of the proof

that the verse was written by Kamban,

that the temple tower was built by Periazhwar and the vague statement

that they say that Valalbhadevan lived in 4th or 5th

century – are all good for 'thiNNAi talk' – but that would hardly appeal

to the intellectual community and the people

who are into serious search.

But my thanks for this response, for, I got another

opportunity to present a detailed research based on serious inputs.

I analyze this in 2 sets.

First, dating from the inputs given by inscriptions.

And the second, on

the basis of inputs given by Periaazhwar himself.

Inscriptions.

So far 4 sets of inscriptions pertaining to Pandyan dynasty

have been unearthed and deciphered. Two from Sinnamanur and one from Velvikudi

and another from Anaimalai.

The large copper plates of Sinnamanur bear the lineage of

Pandyans starting from 'Kadum kOn' and ending with 'Rajasimha III'. It has been ascertained by scholars and historians

that Rajasimha III at whose order the

inscriptions have been made was a contemporary of Cholan King Paranthaka I, who

ruled in the early part of 10th century AD.

The fact that of interest to us is that Raja simha III was

the grand son of Sri Maran Si Vallabhan whom the Guru

parampara had identified as the king during Periaazhwar's time.

The inscription is written in Sanskrit and in Tamil.

The genealogy of the Pandyans from Kadum kOn is traced in

both versions.

In the Sanskrit version, the name Sri

Maran Si Vallabhan is found , whereas in the corresponding Tamil

version, his name is mentioned as "Parachakra

Kolahalan".

This name gives a lot of information.

The complete information on the inscriptions can be read

here

http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_3/copper_plates_at_tirukkalar.html

(This website is meant for research and scholarly analysis,

working in connection with archeological survey of India

and providing translations of inscription so far unearthed in South

India. It certainly requires lot of patience and analytical mind

even to surf through the information from inscriptions. Those who think that all this stuff is wasteful struggle can

quit reading even at this point.)

The Sanskrit version on Sri vallabha is given here. (note

that Rajasimhan is a recuuerent name. Sri Vallabha's father was Rajasimham II.

His grand son was Rajasimhan III)

In this family was born king Arikesarin. His son was Jatila ;

his son Rajasimha (II) ; his son Varaguna (I) ; and his son Sri-Mara entitled

Srivallabha (v. 10). Sri-Mara conquered Maya-Pandya, the kings of Kerala

and Simhala, the Pallava and the Vallabha (v. 11). His son was Parantaka

the younger brother of Varaguna II (v. 12), who fought a battle at Kharagiri

and captured Ugra (v. 13). His wife was Vanavanmahadevi (v. 15) and their

son was Rajasimha (III), the banner (both) of the solar and the lunar races

(vv. 16 and 17).

The corresponding Tamil version is given here.

Rajasimha's son was Parachakrakolahala who was cuccesful in battles

fought at Kunnur, Singalam (Ceylon) and Vilinam and who at

Kudamukkil won a deadly battle against the combined armies of the Ganga, Pallava, Chola, Kalinga, Magadha and other kings.

Next came Varagunavarman, whose relationship to Parachakrakolahala is also not

specified. His younger brother was Parantakan Sadaiyan, who fought

battles at Sennilam, Kharagiri and Pennagadam in the Kongu

country. To him and his queen Vanavanmahadevi was born Rajasimha

surnamed Vikatavadava and Mandaragaurava.

Maran is titular name of Pandyans. We don not know the

original name of many kings. However the name is given here is Sri maran who

came to be called as Sri Vallabhan because he conquered the Vallabhs.

This king had defeated many kings and this tallies with Periazhwar's narration,

"Kurugaatha mannarai-k-koodu

kalakki…"

That he is the king in Periaazhwar's time is known from Seevara

mangalam copper plates where it is mentioned that his successor, Paranthakan

became a 'parama vaiihnavan'.

The first deviation from tradition happened in Paranthakan's

time in that he married Vanavanmadevi of Chola race and it is mentioned in the

inscription that their son Rajasimha III who made these inscriptions was the

product of solar and lunar race!

The Cholans were the descendants of Sibi,

who shared the lineage with Rama as known from Thiruvalangadu copper plates. (Analysis

and details of the lineage can be read in my bolg http://jayasreesaranathan.blogspot.com)

.. Till Mandhatha the cholans had the same lineage. Sibi came in the lineage of

siblings after Mandhatha and they all spanned out and further descendants established

their kingdoms in many parts. One such person was Chola varman who established

Chola dynasty in in the South as per the inscriptions. In Raghu kulam only the eldest

son ascended the throne. Bharatha also says

this in his argument to make Raman accept the throne after his return

from exile.

The Cholans were known as Sembians,

tracing their lineage to Sibi.

They were from Solar race whose god was Vishnu.

Whereas the Pandyans belonged to the Lunar race and

worshiped Siva as they sprang from Gowri or Meenaskhi who married Siva.

The two distinct races with distinct worship methods merged in Parantakan's time.

The causes can be traced to his father Parachakra kolahalan. (Sree maran Sri vallabhan)

This name itself reveals that he had the divya darshan of

the 'Para-vasthu' along with the Chakra-p-padai

as He appeared for Periaazhwar.

This darshan must have changed the king who was until then a

shiva devotee as per his family tradition.

The influence of Periaazhwar and the darshan he had along

with para-tatawa must have made his son (Paranthaka, the younger one. The elder

Varaguna did not ascend the throne. No mention of the reason is found in the

inscription) Paranthaka a parama vaishnavan to such an extent that he broke the

tradition and married a princes from Vishnu worshiping family of Cholas.

The temple at Srivilliputtur

might have been built by these kings, at the instance of Periaazhwar. But such

a mention is absent in the inscriptions, In this case we have to search for

inscriptions in the temple walls etc. If such an information is available, it

will do good to bring it to the notice of authorities.

If Raja simhan III, the grand son of

Srivallabha has lived in the early part of 10th century AD, we can

deduce that Srivallabha had lived within a century earlier. This tallies with astronomical

dating based on precession of equinoxes and the location of Jupiter and Venus

as told by Andal.

The Anaimalai inscriptions pinpointing the date of Sri valalabha

to 4th or 5th century is not to be found in the

inscriptions.

From Periaazhwar's works.

Periaazhwar makes a mention of kings at 3 places.

(1) parupapdatthu

kayal porittha pandiyar kula pathy. (Periahwar thirumoazhi 5-4-7)

(2) Konnavil

sudar vEl kOn nedumaran (Periahwar thirumoazhi 4-2-7 )

(3) Kurugatha

mannarai koodu kalakki ( Periahwar thirumoazhi 4-2-8)

Let us see one by one.

"parupapdatthu kayal porittha

pandiyar kula pathy". (Periahwar

thirumoazhi 5-4-7)

A pandyan king had engraved their edicts on the Himalyan

mountain.

This is also mentioned in the sinnamanur copper plates as the 2nd

verse.

In the words of the epigrapher,

"The Sanskrit

portion of the bigger Sinnamanur plates begins with a fragmentary verse in

which the king (perhaps Pandya) boasts of having subdued the ocean — an

attribute which the mythical Pandya kings generally assumed in consequence,

perhaps, of their sea-bordering kingdom, their naval power, and their sea-borne

trade, from the earliest historical times. From him were descended the

kings known as Pandyas (v. 2) 'who engraved their edicts on the Himalaya mountain' and whose

family-priest was the sage Agastya (v. 3)."

This has also been recorded in Silappadhikaram in the opening verse of Aacchiar kuravai, and in verses 104 and 105 of Kali-th-thogai. This king is described as one who survived the

last deluge, pushed to the present day Madurai after dislodging the

Cholans and Cherans and went as far away to the Himalayas as to place his

symbol on the Himalayan mountain.

But these texts have not spelt his name. Only this feat is repeatedly

recorded.

The Sinnamanur plates begin with a king, Kadum kOn.

Though we can not say if it was the king who survived the deluge, since the

lineage listed is not long enough to be spread over thousands of years since

the last deluge, there is scope to say that he belonged to the direct lineage

of the one who survived the deluge and bore the title of that king by

tradition.

The king who survived the deluge was aided by Agasthya (as per the inscription) .

From Nacchinaarkiniyar's commentary, we know that Agasthya came to

Tamil lands (at Podhigai near Madurai) after the deluge in Dwaraka

with 3 sets of people from Royal, feudal and worker class of

Dwaraka and settled them in the re-structured lands near Podhigai. This was the

time of deluge off Kanya kumari, that brought the surviving Pandyans and his

subjects to the same lands. Agasthya (or his descendant with the same family

name) who was already connected with the Pandyans of Then Madurai, had come to

be associated with this king too at the time of deluge that was the nature of

Yuga-pralaya at the end of Dwapara yuga.

From Periaazhwar we can deduce that the name of that king was 'Kadum KOn Nedumaran'

Periaazhwar has not meant Srimaran Srivallbhan by "kayal porittha

pandiyar kula pathy".

The reasons are that Srivallabhan did

to go to the Himalayas but only conquered kings

in his vicinity. From the inscription also we know that the one who went to Himalayas

was different from him.

There is every possibility to infer that this king was mentioned in vesre 4-2-7 as "kadum

kOn Nedumaran"

Pariazhwar describes him with a " koodal

vEl " . The vEl was the divine instrument procured from Shiva with

which Ugra Pandyan, the very king in the lineage of Gowri managed to stop the

surging oceans in the now submerged Then-Madurai (Koodal ma nagar) which was more than 1000 miles south of the present

day Kanyakumari. There are not less than 7 literary sources to authenticate

this which I am not producing here (but can be read in my blog posts) for the

purpose of making this post simple and easy to follow.

It is possible to assume that this weapon capable of fighting (in) waters

was treasured through generations and used by the last king of that era when

another deluge happened. This king who

managed to survive that deluge with that weapon had conquered the lands upto Himalayas.

Since Periazhwar remembers this king at another verse too (paruppadatthu-k-

kayal porittha pandiyar kula pathy), it is possible to assume that he was

Kadum kOn Nedumaran. The title 'Kadum' speaks about his fierce temperament with

which he overcame the fury of nature and turned his fury on others to grab a

place for himself in the now occupied areas.

Another reason that the Kadum Kon was not Sri vallabhan is that it is a

practice to remember the first of the lineage before praising the ruling king of the contemporary times. We can prove

this in many verses of sangam texts. Among prabahndam pasurams, we can see Thirumangai aazhwar using this tradition he remembers Sibi (sembian) the first king of

Choals before praising Kocehnganaan in his verses on Thiru

naraiyur.

So we have now solved 2 of the references by Periaazhwar.

The third is of course about Sri vallabhan in 4-2-8

There is corroboratory evidence fro this in Sinhalese Maha vamsam.

The reference to 'Indra kobhangal' in the next verse also is a continuation

of how the Pandyan kings suffered Indra's curse in having opposed his army of

storms and rains right from the time of Ugra pandyan. Silappadhikaram records this in the words of a Brahmin who

says since the Pandyans had outwitted Indra and stopped the mighty ocean, they

incurred the wrath of Indra and as if to take revenge for this, Indra caused

another deluge which made the Pandyans

homeless.

The king who survived had established the present day Madurai

(and 3rd sangam) and Thirumalirum cholai. His lineage with the preceding 10 + generations of Rajasimha

III had been mentioned by Rajasimha III in the copper plates. The list starts with

Kadum KoN, identified as Kadum Kon Nedumaran who was the first one in the new order

established after the deluge.

Thus, the inscriptions and literary source (from Periazhwar) locate the

aazhwar's (therefore Andal's ) time at 9th century AD which goes

well astronomical factors.

Accurate date of Maargazhi when Thiruppavai was composed can be made by

incorporating the following information.

The sky map was such that the sun was in the cusp of Sagittarius.

Moon was in the cusp of Taurus- Gemini.

Venus was in Scorpio closer to the junction with Sagittarius.

Jupiter was 180 degrees opposite to Venus in Mrigashira 2nd pada.

This gives the next clue on the year too.

As per Brihaspatya mana (Guru mana), Jupiter's year which consists of 5

rounds around the zodiac with a year in each sign begins in Kaarthikaptha in

Taurus in the year Vijaya!

Jupiter was in Taurus in the sky map of Thiruppavai.

So it must have been any of the five years, Vijaya, Vishvavasu, Pinagala,

Shukla or Vishu

This will further make the search easy and I hope these tips will be taken

up further some time in future.

Another break-through thought from this analysis is the original location of

Thirumalirum cholai (considered on par with

vaikuntham ) in the sub merged Kumari land.

Since Periaazhwar repeatedly says 'then' (southern)

Thirumalirum cholai, particularly in the verses in which he speaks of the

Pandyan kings make me wonder whether there existed vada

(northern) Thirumalirum cholai. (Like Vada madurai

for Mathura and Thenmadurai)

A probable candidate for this is Thiru-p-piridhi,

which is also in the cholai environment of a mighty mountain. That is the abode of the

Lord in parama pada roopam. There the

Lord gave darshan to Parvathy. In Thirumalirum cholai, the lord gave darshan to

Malayadwaja pandyan , the father of Meenaskhi (Parvathy) perhaps to grant him

progeny / birth of Parvathy!

Aazhwars have certainly concealed more secrets in their verses, I suppose!

On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 3:51 PM, PlokaChariar Sishyan <plokachariar_sishyan wrote: