The VaishnavAs offense

[Guest guest]

Sri:

SrimatE rAmAnujaya nama:

Sri nArAyana yatheendra mahAdEsikAya nama:

 

Dear Sri Anand swAmin,

 

AdiyEn was going through one of your old article.

(Ref:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jul98/0043.html).

In that adiyEn came across this passage:

 

" in VarAhapurAnam , Lord VarAhA says " The VaishnavA

who touches blood even without knowing what it is - I

never condone his offence , O goddess of earth , even

after thousand apologies "

 

To adiyEn's understanding this is not a great quality

that Lord possess. This rather sounds more cruel.

If a devotee commits any mistake unknowingly or

even knowingly if he realizes his mistake and pleads

to the Lord to forgive his offense and that he will

never engage in such activity in future, Lord out of

His compassion will definitely forgive him. This

act of punishment greatly contradicts with His other

qualities such as mArdhavam, vAtsalyam, etc.

 

Can you please elobrate more on this?.

 

Thanks

 

adiyEn

rAmasAmy rAmAnuja dAsan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

SrI:

SrImathE rAmAnujAya nama:

Dear SrI RAmaswAmi,

 

Your question has been specifically considered in the form of a doubt in the

29th adhikAram charama-SlOkAdhikAram of SrImath rahasya traya sAram by swAmi

SrIman nigamAnta mahA dESikan and it is answered-clarified. This is in the

context of explaining the " mOkshayishyAmi " artham. Let me attempt to explain

the same as follows.

BhagavAn has said " na kshamAmi " - " I will not forgive them " categorically in

the same SAstra. He has also said " mOkshayishyAmi " - " whenever you (jeevan)

wish, I will liberate you " in the charama-SlOkam.

 

In varAha purANam, the same bhagavAn says to SrI bhUmI pirATTi -

" pramAdAth-api kIlakam ya: SpruSeth-vaishNavO nara: |

upachAra SatEnApi na kshamAmi vasundharE || "

" SrI bhUmI pirATTi (vasundharE)! Even if a VaishNavan unknowingly touches

blood, I will not forgive him even if he does hundreds of upachArams to me "

(Few more such things are present here and elsewhere also)

 

A doubt arises here as follows:

From these pramANams, it appears that for certain pApams, there is no

forgiveness from bhagavAn. If so, then his words (sarva pApEbhyO)

" mOkshayishyAmi " must be just for upacchAndanam - fore mere satisfaction -

name-sake or for just increasing the jeevan's desire to adopt prapatti and not

in reality. The doubt is clarified as follows:

 

The subject/context in " na kshamAmi " and " mOkshayishyAmi " are entirely

different. na kshamAmi case is to stress that the Lord will not accept pOli

(fake) acts in the name of different prAyaSchittam (correction). The upachAra

Satam mentioned in the quoted varAha purANa SlOkam refers to the fake

prAyaSchittams. Such prAyaSchittam is not at all decreed by the valid

pramANam-SAstram for corresponding pApa kArayams.

I heard in dialogue in a recent cinema also " if the sAmi (God) forgives

our sins on receiving our money in his undiyal, then is that a sAmi? if that

is the case, is not that sAmi also a business-man? " . These dialogues are due

to pure ignorance. Ignorant people get misled by such things and talk ill of

bhagavAn. That is why the Lord said na kshamAmi in such fake prAyaSchittam

cases assumed by people. The prAyaSchittam for various papa-kAryams is also

known only through the SAstra and SishTAchAram. It cannot be assumed without

consulting SAstra.

Also, there are SAstra vachanams which states that all things touched by SrI

VaishNavas becomes pure, whatever SrI VaishNava speaks becomes equal to mantra

etc. In these case, vyavasta (SAstra prescribed limitations) must be carefully

considered. Intoxicating liquor/blood/bhasmam/bone etc touched by SrI

VaishNava will not become pure as tulasi-tIrtham. On touching such things, SrI

VaishNavan has to do the SAstra-prescribed prAyaSchittam only and not assume

things. Please see prabhAva-vyavastAdhikAram for more details here.

 

On the other hand, sAnga-prapadanam, which is prapatti-bharanyAsam

(SaraNAgati) is declared by the SAstra as sarva-pApa-prAyaSchittam for all

akinchana-adhikAris. Prapatti when performed by the jeevan, invokes the

bhagavath krupA. BhagavAn removes all the pApams of the prapannan in many

ways. Even the pApam, which was discussed under " na kshamAmi " , will be

removed. There is no doubt here. Sarva pApEbhyO mOkshayishyAmi sankalpam of

bhagavAn will never fail for akinchana-adhikAris who do prapatti. That is why

the Lord said " yadi vA rAvaNa: swayam " - even if rAvaNan does prapatti, I will

forgive him. If this is not accepted as per SAstra here, then all the SAstra,

which prescribes bhakti or prapatti as sAdhyOpAyams for mOksham, will become

ineffective in terms of prAmANyam (the nature of being autority-source of

valid knowledge). Therefore, " mOkshayishyAmi " is in reality.

 

In your mail, you have taken " upachAra SatEnApi " of varAha purANam in odd

sense. Your words " pleads to the Lord to forgive his offense and that he will

never engage in such activity in future " is not " upachAra SatEnApi " . This

pleading is done in prapatti; ref. " akrutyAnAm cha karaNam krutyAnAm varjanam

cha mE kshamasva nikhilam dEva praNAtArthihara prabhO " . The Lord will

definitely forgive the soul out of his mercy if the soul performs prapatti.

This pleading is also in prAyaSchitta prapatti. This is not " upachAra

SatEnApi " which is called as " pOliyAna prAyaSchittAntarams " .

 

If a prapannan commits sins after prapatti, then he has to do the

prAyaSchittam as specifically prescribed for that by the SAstra. If he is not

able to do it, then he has Aakinchanyam in that case also. He has to do

prAyaSchitta prapatti. The Lord will forgive him surely. But he should not do

fake or " taken for granted " things on his own and claim tolerance from the

Lord and argue that the Lord's kalyANa guNams like mArdhavam, vAtsalyam etc

gets contradicted. Touching of Intoxicating liquor/blood/bhasmam/bone etc even

unknowingly is considered as a sin but such cases are limited.

 

The Lord has the responsibility to remove all the pApams of the Jeevan. If the

prapannan fails to do even prAyaSchitta prapatti, then also through a nigraham

(punishment) in small-scale, the Lord removes the pApam of the jeevan. Even in

this case, the Lord's kalyANa guNams like mArdhavam, vAtsalyam are not getting

contradicted but instead gets more established.

 

The ways in which a prapannan is saved from all pApams is clearly explained in

SRTS. For the sake of brevity, I am not explaining it here. In all the cases,

the Lord's kalyANa guNams are more clearly seen without any contradiction.

 

I request SrI Karalapakkam Anand K swAmi to correct me.

 

Thanks & Regards,

naidhruva mAdabhUshi S. HARI rAmAnuja dAsan (mshari)

=============================================================

 

Ramasamy <kailasr>

Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:06 am

The VaishnavAs offense

 

Sri:

SrimatE rAmAnujaya nama:

Sri nArAyana yatheendra mahAdEsikAya nama:

 

Dear Sri Anand swAmin,

 

AdiyEn was going through one of your old article.

(Ref:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jul98/0043.html).

In that adiyEn came across this passage:

 

" in VarAhapurAnam , Lord VarAhA says " The VaishnavA

who touches blood even without knowing what it is - I

never condone his offence , O goddess of earth , even

after thousand apologies "

 

To adiyEn's understanding this is not a great quality

that Lord possess. This rather sounds more cruel.

If a devotee commits any mistake unknowingly or

even knowingly if he realizes his mistake and pleads

to the Lord to forgive his offense and that he will

never engage in such activity in future, Lord out of

His compassion will definitely forgive him. This

act of punishment greatly contradicts with His other

qualities such as mArdhavam, vAtsalyam, etc.

 

Can you please elobrate more on this?.

 

Thanks

 

adiyEn

rAmasAmy rAmAnuja dAsan

[Guest guest]

> SrI:

> SrImathE rAmAnujAya nama:

 

Thanks to SrI Hari SwAmi's kind and detailed explanation

though the question was directed to me. aDiyEn thought of

writing back - But somehow couldn't due to my time pressure.

Many such Qts to me in private are also in the pending.

Will try to answer them whenever possible.

 

Even if aDiyEn had written back, it would have been

only a small paragraph and not as long as this =>

SrI RAmaswAmi has been benifited much more only.

 

In summary, SwAmi DESikan by the word " pOliyAna prAyaSchittam "

explains that if the sin is such that PerumAL will not forgive

it even after 100 (Or 1000) upachArams, it implies that such

prAyaSchittams are still not enough for certain kind of sins.

But, if one performs Prapatti [wrt this sin Or even all the

sins binding one in samsAra], PerumAL will certainly forgive.

Prapatti is sarva-pApa-prAyaSchittam.

 

rAmAnuja dAsan,

Anand.

 

> Dear SrI RAmaswAmi,

>

> Your question has been specifically considered in the form of a doubt in the

> 29th adhikAram charama-SlOkAdhikAram of SrImath rahasya traya sAram by swAmi

> SrIman nigamAnta mahA dESikan and it is answered-clarified. This is in the

> context of explaining the " mOkshayishyAmi " artham.

 

....

....

 

> I request SrI Karalapakkam Anand K swAmi to correct me.

>

> Thanks & Regards,

> naidhruva mAdabhUshi S. HARI rAmAnuja dAsan (mshari)

> =============================================================