Guest guest Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Dear Ram Anbil Swami Dasan - while the sincere attempts of devotees in Pomona temple needs to be lauded, I feel that your comparison to practices in other Divya Desam is unwanted and unnecessary. 1. Pomona temple doesn't have the motley crowd?! - you should be kidding - the crowd is nothing more than so called Sri Vaishnavites with self assumed importance, who were hell bent on leaving India to earn some more $$$ and because they made money in their life, have turned spiritual - take the $$$ away and it'd be interesting to see how many can demonstrate the Shraddha/anushtanam and vairaagyam - and very unfortunately I am one of them as well. Compare that to the crowd in India - have to stand in temperatures of 35 degrees +, humidity of close to 100%, have to travel in sun/rain/bad roads and still demonstrate their bhakti in their own special individual ways no matter how imperfect it is - the motley crowd doesn't care what is happening because they are confident that the learned archakas will do their job 2. Kainkarya paarals in Pomona - you say the kainkarya paraals want to do free service inspite of holding 'high posts in corporate world' - i say they are eager only because they hold high posts - would like to see if they will be kainkarya paraals if they lost their jobs or have no jobs (the good lord forbid) - compare that to the kainkarya paraals in Divya desam - they earn their livelihood doing kainkaryam - so their earnings is Saathvika - compare that to the Kainkarya paraals in Pomona - their occupation is one that is full of rajaasa/thamasa quality - so they want to do free service to justify their earnings - the Kainkarya paraals have the humility to stick to their Varna dharmam - whereas the so called NRI brahmins are nothing more than Aasthika Naasthikas 3. Adhyapka Goshtis - 'cawing like crows' in Divay Desams - i'd like to see how many people turn up as goshti when they are prohibited to travel by car and have to wear 'kudumi' per prescribed shastra, have to travel standing in buses (after a long wait and subject to carcalls from the hostile public) - wading thru sun/rain in their broken slippers, half filled stomach, loads of family worries, an unempathising public, relatives who make fun, zero bank balance, uncertainty about where the next day's food will come from and whole loads of every day misery they are subject to - I SAY their cawing like crows will be like SAAMA GAANA to the good lord Net Net - the NRI sri vaishnavites (of which unfortunately i am one as well) are nothing more than Shaashtra brashtas - who are filled with ahankaram, who refuse to follow their varna dharma out of their greed/ignorance/aham/mamakaram but consider themselves supreme brahma gnaanis the moment they learn a few of the pancha sookthams and nitya araadhanam - primarily aasthika naasthikas who talk aasthikam endlessly but whose lifestyle depends on practising naasthikam - they refuse to show even an iota of humility I hope this adds some perspective to our own status and inculcates in all of us some reality check - while i appreciate the work done in Pomona temple and all kainkarya paraals/goshtis etc the point of my email was to show that comparison with Divya Desam practices were unfortunate and unnecessary - they live their life of anushtanams - any imperfections is only due to 'kaalathin kattayam' rather than voluntary ANd lastly to Koti Sree Krishna Swami: Dasan - you may experience Jnaanam/Vignaanam in the US of A - but for ANUSHTANAM there is no place like Bharatam Dasan Ramji--- On Thu, 7/30/09, raghavan veera <raghavanvee wrote: raghavan veera <raghavanveeRe: Fw: Re: MEETING OF MATURE MINDSdesikasampradaya Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 6:07 PM Dear all, Sri Anbil swamin has used some harsh words like, 'cawing of murder of crows','colony of frogs' while referring to Adhyaapaka goshti reciting Vedas and Divyaprabandam of some Divyadesams. We should be happy and encourage that Srivaishnavas are visiting temples and partake in Utsavams.Many kshetrams languish for patronage and flower ,prasadam expenses could not me met.Aradhakars lament people do not even turn up.Let us be happy a Srivaishna is coming to temple,is in his Swaroopam attire,recite Vedas and Prabandham, the way he knows. After all the Adhyaapaka goshti recites before Sriman Narayanan of that Temple and it is 'He' who is listening.If some body recites ,not to one's liking,let us remember our acts are all 'leelas' of Him.We are all part Sriman Narayanan Himself. In many temples in Tamilnadu,Srivaishn avas loosing their hold on temples and politicians in power wants to select Aradhakars and select who will chant in temples.They cry aloud that it is not prerogative of Brahman alone.Two/ Three years ago, a senior srivaishnava wrote on status of temple in a divyadesam.On Udaya Garuda seva,Perumal waited in Temple for sevarthis,but none in the vicinity.That swamin further added ,Perumal took a round of Mada veedhi, hoping to meet one and none to be found.Let us respect all Srivaishnavas and encourage recitation of Vedas/ Prabandhams. All cannot be Sevilimedu Swamin,Velukkudi Krishnan Swamin etc..My apologies to one and all if i have offended anybody in this message.Regards, Veeraraghavan, Chembur, Mumbai On 7/30/09, Vasudevan VK <vasuchak > wrote: What is the use of offering milk in a skull? This is the question of Swami Desika when asked why we should not accept ahimsa as proposed by buddhists and jains. Similarly of what use is it to propitiate the Lord when it is not being done in karma bhoomi?--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Koti Sreekrishna <tatachar (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote: Koti Sreekrishna <tatachar (AT) aol (DOT) com>Re: MEETING OF MATURE MINDSRamanbil (AT) grouply (DOT) com, , srtsevak@ s.com, sridhardikshit@ Thursday, July 30, 2009, 3:00 AM Dear Anbil Swamin,Simply beautiful narration.Only here in the US - at least for us, the last hope on earth, that it is truly possible to be- jnaanam vignaana sahitam...hailed in the Bhagavad-Gita.dAsanKSTRam Anbil <Ramanbil (AT) grouply (DOT) com>Journal SDDS <>; srtsevak <srtsevak@ s.com>; venkat kanumalla <sridhardikshit@ >Wed, Jul 29, 2009 4:33 pm MEETING OF MATURE MINDS MEETING OF MATURE MINDS Do you wish to be a part of a “meeting of mature mindsâ€? Come to Sri Ranganatha temple at Pomona, New York during any of the several celebrations being conducted there like the just concluded 3rd BrahmOtsavam, 2009. What is so special and different about Pomona celebrations that you do not experience elsewhere? If you read the following, I am sure that you will agree with me. In several Divya decamp s back in India, it is usually a motley crowd of floating population with diverse stages of knowledge and interest - some not even knowing what is going on! Here in Pomona, you will find hundreds of devotees from coast to coast and even from abroad having absolute understanding of the protocols and with exclusive devotion to the Lord. In several Diva desams back in India, you will find that the so called “kainkarya paras†called hereditary “Srimaan ThaangigaL†are just “wage earners†- employees†who “work for food†(udara nimittam) Here in Pomona, the volunteers eagerly look forward and compete in offering their services for FREE. They are not professional “Srimaan ThaangigaL†but hold high positions in the corporate world but have come with a genuine interest to serve the Lord. In several Divya desams back in India, you will find that members of “Adhyaapaka GOshTis†reciting Veda mantras and Divya Prabandams so mechanically (like the cawing of a murder of crows or croaking of an army, knot or colony of frogs) without understanding what they are reciting! Their concern is on completing the quota of recitals within a time frame. Here in Pomona when these amateur volunteers holding high positions in life recite in resonance, there is life in it. You feel as if you are in the midst of Nityasooris in Sri VaikunTam praising the lord heartily because they recite with an understanding of the meanings of StOtrams and Paasurams they recite. The thorough manner of the rites and rituals were organized by “Paramaikanti Sarvabhouman†Sri Venkat Kanumalla Swami and his dedicated band of Trustees like Sri Srinivas Tanikalla Swami, Sri Murthy Ayyala Swami and scores of volunteers was really for “Gods to seeâ€! Due to the diligence and dedication of=2 0the volunteers every detail was meticulously attended to without skipping any essentials. Anyone who was someone worthy of being mentioned as “Bhaagavata†was present at the premises coming as they did from far flung areas between the East coast and the West coast. This was a telling attestation of the SlOkam in Srimad Bhagavatam 10.48.31 which says that bath in sacred waters and even worshipping Archa moorthis in temples can purify one’s soul only in due course but the very sight of the congregation of Saadhus can do the same almost instantly. Na hi ammayaani therthaani na devaa: mrith silaa mayaa: / tE punanti uru-kaalEna Darsanaad Eva Saadhava: // I may mention in this regard that my connections with this temple are special for the following reasons - - Firstly, it was at the feet of Prakritam 45th PaTTam Azhagiya Singhar (in His Poorvaasramam) that I had the Bhaagyam of learning through Closed-circuit KaalakshEpams of Grantha ChatushTayams that any VaishNava ought to learn in one’s lifetime. - Secondly, it was my own nephew, Late Sri Ranganathan Kuppuswami who dreamed of raising a temple for Sri Ranganatha in the USA (as per the wishes of H.H. 44th PaTTam Mukkur Azhagiya Singhar). He was also instrumental in providing necessa ry motivation in the first place. 7. PRIEST SERVICES The devotion and dedication with which the priests conducted the various Homams like Vaasudeva Homam, Sri Lakshmi Nrisimha Homam, Srimad Ramayana Homam, Mahalakshmi Homam, Maha-Sudarsana Homam, Kalyana Utsavams. Pushpa Yaagam etc with meticulous attention to every detail were indeed breathtaking. The Alankarams (costumes) for the Lord for Purappadus (Circumambulation) both in the morning and the evening were matchless. The services of Sri Paravastu Srinivasa Raghavan Swami from Andhra, Sri Naryana Bhattar Swamin from Karnataka and Sri Rajagopalan Swami from Tamilnadu were particularly noteworthy. 8. MASTERS OF CEREMONIES It is discipline that differentiates an orderly brigade from a motley crowd. Even the Lord is assisted by Sri Vishwak sEnar in organizing his devotees. We had a couple of such “Masters of ceremonies†in Sri A.M.R. Kannan, Sri Arun Krishnamachari and their group of friends who spared no efforts to regulate the proceedings with razor sharp precision at every stage. MUSIC GALORE The Nadaswaram party consisting of two grandsons of the famous Sheik Chinna Moulana Saheb of Srirangam (Mr. Kasim and Mr. Babu) on the pipe and two on percussion (Thavil) was ever ready with their enchanting music. The Tavil Vidwans who performed in sync with the modulations of recitation of the mantras set to music by Sri Paravastu Srinivasa Raghavan Swami is absolutely unforgettable. 10. SRIMAN THAANGIGAL When the Lord danced our hearts danced in unison and some were tempted to dance physically too! Such an enthralling experience it was! 11. NADAI, UDAI, VADAI It used to be said that the gait (naDai) of Sri Ranganatha (in Srirangam), costume (UDai) of Kanchi Varadaraja and the edible cake (Vadai) of Tirumalai TiruvenkatamuDaiyaa n are proverbially famous. In Pomona BrahmOTsavam there was a combination of the best of all the three! 12. FOOD Food was aplenty and always available on all the days FOR FREE to all those who attended the Utsavam. “Even an army marches on its stomach†The never ending stream of visitors was fed with a variety of items to heart’s content. The food was as filling in the belly as the Darshan of the Lord in various Sannidhis was filling to the heart. The “Anna Daanam†was a 24/7 affair. At no point of time that anyone had to go without food! The credit for the preparation of such delicious fare goes to Sri Muralikrishnan Swami, who toiled day and night untiringly and with a smiling countenance at all times. 13. ENTERTAINMENTS GALORE There were a number of entertainments in music and dance which kept the audience spell bound in the afternoons. The notable ones were the music by the Bombay sisters and the Kuchipudi dance by Kuchipudi Arts Academy besides other dance dramas by amateur artists. 14. VAAHANAMS (MOUNTS) The most essential requirement of BrahmOTsavam is the provision of Vaahanams (mounts) on which the Lord goes about giving Darshan even to those who could not or would not come to the temple. Besides GaruDa Vaahanam, the new additions were Hanumanta Vaahanam, SEsha Vaahanam and Kalpaka Vriksham. I request all devotees to donate liberally for acquiring other Vaahanams (Mounts) for the temple like Aswa (Horse), Gaja (Elephant), Simha (Lion) Surya Prabha (The Sun dial), Chandra Prabha (The Arc of the Moon), Hamsa ( Swan) and YaaLi (a hybrid of lion and elephant- a mythological creature) 15. RATHOTSAVAM The highlight of this year’s BrahmOtsavam was the grand and colorful RathOtsavam – a Chariot specially constructed at great expense and greater effort. The car was pu lled by hundreds of volunteers to the delight of the thousands of spectators. Daasoham Anbil Ramaswamy & n bsp; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2009 Report Share Posted August 13, 2009 dear all, there has been a dwandva going in my mind on reading the reactions to shri.anbil swamys' description of POMONA brahmotsavams. i have been in dual mind to whether to moderate or not the thoughts of the members, but then decided to go ahead. my request to the members is to leave the matter at rest, with a request to anbil swamy to treat the comments as " smarayath na tu shiskaye " dasan, devarajan desikasampradaya , " SRINATH G.R. " <srinathgr wrote: > > > > > Dear Anbil Swamin: > > You might be a learned scholar but you should not have used these words: > In several Divya > desams back in India, you will find that members of “Adhyaapaka > GOshTis†reciting Veda mantras and Divya Prabandams so mechanically > (like the cawing of a murder of crows or croaking of an army, knot or > colony of frogs) without understanding what they are reciting! Their > concern is on completing the quota of recitals within a time frame. > > Even though you have said in some Divya Desams its hurting because there is a better way to compare this Recitation done in this Particular US temple (if you liked it so much) to divya desams particularly like Perumalkoil (Kanchi). You could have framed your words like it was done akin to Perumal Koil. As you know here at Kanchi Both Divyaprabandam and Vedaparayanam are held in the highest and both kainkaryams are performed with atmost austerity and devotion. > > Like you said in some Divyadesams it might not be performed with such austerity and dedication that's because most of the divyadesams don't have their sons of soil residing there. They are settled elsewhere and just turn around once in a year. And not to forget many of them settled in the so called US (milecha Desam) to pursue their materialistic wellbeing. Its funny and ironical to see them conducting Brahmotsavams with much pomp and fanfare when their very own divyadesams at the Karma Bhoomi is lacking of all these. > > My point of writing this email is not to disgrace them but atleast comments like the above could be avoided. Like our Poorvacharyars have mentioned there is no value for rituals that are being performed away from our Karma Bhoomi. Lets try to support and help our Divyadesams instead of commenting and comparing which will never serve the purpose. > > Dasan > > Srinath. ________________________________ > raghavan veera <raghavanvee > desikasampradaya > Thursday, 30 July, 2009 18:07:35 > Re: Fw: Re: MEETING OF MATURE MINDS > > > Dear all, Sri Anbil swamin has used some harsh words like, 'cawing of murder of crows','colony of frogs' while referring to Adhyaapaka goshti reciting Vedas and Divyaprabandam of some Divyadesams. We should be happy and encourage that Srivaishnavas are visiting temples and partake in Utsavams.Many kshetrams languish for patronage and flower ,prasadam expenses could not me met.Aradhakars lament people do not even turn up.Let us be happy a Srivaishna is coming to temple,is in his Swaroopam attire,recite Vedas and Prabandham, the way he knows. After all the Adhyaapaka goshti recites before Sriman Narayanan of that Temple and it is 'He' who is listening.If some body recites ,not to one's liking,let us remember our acts are all 'leelas' of Him.We are all part Sriman Narayanan Himself. In many temples in Tamilnadu,Srivaishn avas loosing their hold on temples and politicians in power wants to select Aradhakars and select who will chant in temples.They cry aloud > that it is not prerogative of Brahman alone.Two/ Three years ago, a senior srivaishnava wrote on status of temple in a divyadesam.On Udaya Garuda seva,Perumal waited in Temple for sevarthis,but none in the vicinity.That swamin further added ,Perumal took a round of Mada veedhi, hoping to meet one and none to be found.Let us respect all Srivaishnavas and encourage recitation of Vedas/ Prabandhams. All cannot be Sevilimedu Swamin,Velukkudi Krishnan Swamin etc..My apologies to one and all if i have offended anybody in this message.Regards, Veeraraghavan, Chembur, Mumbai > > > On 7/30/09, Vasudevan VK <vasuchak > wrote: > > >What is the use of offering milk in a skull? This is the question of Swami Desika when asked why we should not accept ahimsa as proposed by buddhists and jains. Similarly of what use is it to propitiate the Lord when it is not being done in karma bhoomi? > > > >--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Koti Sreekrishna <tatachar (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote: > > > > > >>Koti Sreekrishna <tatachar (AT) aol (DOT) com> > >>>>Re: MEETING OF MATURE MINDS > >>Ramanbil (AT) grouply (DOT) com, , srtsevak@ s.com, sridhardikshit@ > >>>>Thursday, July 30, 2009, 3:00 AM > >> > >> > >> > >>Dear Anbil Swamin, > >> > >>Simply beautiful narration. > >> > >>Only here in the US - at least for us, the last hope on earth, that it is truly possible to be- jnaanam vignaana sahitam...hailed in the Bhagavad-Gita. > >> > >>>>dAsan > >> > >>KST > >> > >> > >> > >>Ram Anbil <Ramanbil (AT) grouply (DOT) com> > >>Journal SDDS <>; srtsevak <srtsevak@ s.com>; venkat kanumalla <sridhardikshit@ > > >>>>Wed, Jul 29, 2009 4:33 pm > >> MEETING OF MATURE MINDS > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>MEETING OF MATURE MINDS > >> > >>Do you wish to be a part of a “meeting of mature mindsâ€? > >>Come to Sri Ranganatha temple at Pomona, New York during any of the several celebrations being conducted there like the just concluded 3rd BrahmOtsavam, 2009. > >> > >>What is so special and different about Pomona celebrations that you do not experience elsewhere? > >>If you read the following, I am sure that you will agree with me. > >> > >> 1. In several Divya decamp s back in India, it is usually a motley crowd of floating population with diverse stages of knowledge and interest - some not even knowing what is going on! > >>Here in Pomona, you will find hundreds of devotees from coast to coast and even from abroad having absolute understanding of the protocols and with exclusive devotion to the Lord. > >> 1. In several Diva desams back in India, you will find that the so called “kainkarya paras†called hereditary “Srimaan ThaangigaL†are just “wage earners†- employees†who “work for food†(udara nimittam) > >>Here in Pomona, the volunteers eagerly look forward and compete in offering their services for FREE. They are not professional “Srimaan ThaangigaL†but hold high positions in the corporate world but have come with a genuine interest to serve the Lord. > >> 1. In several Divya desams back in India, you will find that members of “Adhyaapaka GOshTis†reciting Veda mantras and Divya Prabandams so mechanically (like the cawing of a murder of crows or croaking of an army, knot or colony of frogs) without understanding what they are reciting! Their concern is on completing the quota of recitals within a time frame. > >>Here in Pomona when these amateur volunteers holding high positions in life recite in resonance, there is life in it. You feel as if you are in the midst of Nityasooris in Sri VaikunTam praising the lord heartily because they recite with an understanding of the meanings of StOtrams and Paasurams they recite. > >> 1. The thorough manner of the rites and rituals were organized by > >>“Paramaikanti Sarvabhouman†Sri Venkat Kanumalla Swami and his dedicated band of Trustees like Sri Srinivas Tanikalla Swami, Sri Murthy Ayyala Swami and scores of volunteers was really for “Gods to seeâ€!Due to the diligence and dedication of=2 0the volunteers every detail was meticulously attended to without skipping any essentials. > >> 2. Anyone who was someone worthy of being mentioned as “Bhaagavata†was present at the premises coming as they did from far flung areas between the East coast and the West coast. This was a telling attestation of the SlOkam in Srimad Bhagavatam 10.48.31 which says that bath in sacred waters and even worshipping Archa moorthis in temples can purify one’s soul only in due course but the very sight of the congregation of Saadhus can do the same almost instantly. > >>Na hi ammayaani therthaani na devaa: mrith silaa mayaa: / > >> tE punanti uru-kaalEna Darsanaad Eva Saadhava: // > >> 1. I may mention in this regard that my connections with this temple are special for the following reasons - > >> > >>- Firstly, it was at the feet of Prakritam 45th PaTTam Azhagiya Singhar (in His Poorvaasramam) that I had the Bhaagyam of learning through Closed-circuit KaalakshEpams of Grantha ChatushTayams that any VaishNava ought to learn in one’s lifetime. > >>- Secondly, it was my own nephew, Late Sri Ranganathan Kuppuswami who dreamed of raising a temple for Sri Ranganatha in the USA (as per the wishes of H.H. 44th PaTTam Mukkur Azhagiya Singhar). He was also instrumental in providing necessa ry motivation in the first place. > >>7. PRIEST SERVICES > >>The devotion and dedication with which the priests conducted the various Homams like Vaasudeva Homam, Sri Lakshmi Nrisimha Homam, Srimad Ramayana Homam, Mahalakshmi Homam, Maha-Sudarsana Homam, Kalyana Utsavams. Pushpa Yaagam etc with meticulous attention to every detail were indeed breathtaking. The Alankarams (costumes) for the Lord for Purappadus (Circumambulation) both in the morning and the evening were matchless. > >> > >>The services of Sri Paravastu Srinivasa Raghavan Swami from Andhra, Sri Naryana Bhattar Swamin from Karnataka and Sri Rajagopalan Swami from Tamilnadu were particularly noteworthy. > >>8. MASTERS OF CEREMONIES > >>It is discipline that differentiates an orderly brigade from a motley crowd. Even the Lord is assisted by Sri Vishwak sEnar in organizing his devotees. We had a couple of such “Masters of ceremonies†in Sri A.M.R. Kannan, Sri Arun Krishnamachari and their group of friends who spared no efforts to regulate the proceedings with razor sharp precision at every stage. > >> 1. MUSIC GALORE > >>The Nadaswaram party consisting of two grandsons of the famous Sheik Chinna Moulana Saheb of Srirangam (Mr. Kasim and Mr. Babu) on the pipe and two on percussion (Thavil) was ever ready with their enchanting music. The Tavil Vidwans who performed in sync with the modulations of recitation of the mantras set to music by Sri Paravastu Srinivasa Raghavan Swami is absolutely unforgettable. > >>10. SRIMAN THAANGIGAL > >>When the Lord danced our hearts danced in unison and some were tempted to dance physically too! Such an enthralling experience it was! > >>11. NADAI, UDAI, VADAI > >>It used to be said that the gait (naDai) of Sri Ranganatha (in Srirangam), costume (UDai) of Kanchi Varadaraja and the edible cake (Vadai) of Tirumalai TiruvenkatamuDaiyaa n are proverbially famous. In Pomona BrahmOTsavam there was a combination of the best of all the three! > >>12. FOOD > >>Food was aplenty and always available on all the days FOR FREE to all those who attended the Utsavam. “Even an army marches on its stomach†> >> > >>The never ending stream of visitors was fed with a variety of items to heart’s content. The food was as filling in the belly as the Darshan of the Lord in various Sannidhis was filling to the heart. The “Anna Daanam†was a 24/7 affair. At no point of time that anyone had to go without food! > >> > >>The credit for the preparation of such delicious fare goes to Sri Muralikrishnan Swami, who toiled day and night untiringly and with a smiling countenance at all times. > >>13. ENTERTAINMENTS GALORE > >>There were a number of entertainments in music and dance which kept the audience spell bound in the afternoons. The notable ones were the music by the Bombay sisters and the Kuchipudi dance by Kuchipudi Arts Academy besides other dance dramas by amateur artists. > >>14. VAAHANAMS (MOUNTS) > >>The most essential requirement of BrahmOTsavam is the provision of Vaahanams (mounts) on which the Lord goes about giving Darshan even to those who could not or would not come to the temple. > >> > >>Besides GaruDa Vaahanam, the new additions were Hanumanta Vaahanam, SEsha Vaahanam and Kalpaka Vriksham. I request all devotees to donate liberally for acquiring other Vaahanams (Mounts) for the temple like Aswa (Horse), Gaja (Elephant), Simha (Lion) Surya Prabha (The Sun dial), Chandra Prabha (The Arc of the Moon), Hamsa ( Swan) and YaaLi (a hybrid of lion and elephant- a mythological creature) > >>15. RATHOTSAVAM > >>The highlight of this year’s BrahmOtsavam was the grand and colorful RathOtsavam †" a Chariot specially constructed at great expense and greater effort. The car was pu lled by hundreds of volunteers to the delight of the thousands of spectators. > >> > >>Daasoham > >>Anbil Ramaswamy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> & n bsp; > >> > >> > >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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