Guest guest Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Dear group -- I only have a phone as a computer right now so my editing abilities are limited and I initially sent this message from my other account... If you have a moment please scroll down ... To the next "dear group" I agave gone through the KRI level 1 kundalini teacher training (in 2005), and find myself deeply drawn to not only the teachings of yogi bhajan, but also the sikh identity.However, what I have read so far and what I fear is that gays and lesbians are not understood or respected within the yogi bhajan world ... That it is explained as a previous life mixed up with the present etc. And basically invalidated as a genuine reality/identity..My question/statement/confusion is this ...While I agree that many people both gay and straight could learn from the modesty and grace of which yogi bhajan speaks ... I'm afraid he neglects to take in the complexities of biology ... What then is a transsex or dualy sexed person (one born with both sex parts)? And if god has created men with woman parts and women with man parts (to put it plainly) could She have created men with woman's brains woman's minds and so forth. In addition could not also our bodies be seen as less important than our true souls and our true soulmates?But i will step off my soap box ending with this final question.What is the 3ho stance on gay marraige, gay identity and gay rights?Could textual recommendations, lectures be suggested? To give me more targeted research?Thank you in advance for your time and thoughtful responses,Hannah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Hi Hannah, I am glad you raised this question of the 3HO stance on Gays. I wonder if anyone responded to it? I went through teacher training a few years ago and have immersed myself into the 3HO community. I took Sikh vows last summer at Summer Solstice and am considering taking Amrit, the full Sikh baptism. I wear bana and a turban in public and am living as a Sikh. I am also an out Lesbian and have been for 25 years. Did you know that there is a group of GLBT people associated with 3HO who have formed to support one another around questions such as yours? We are called the Rainbow Sangat and I can give you the information for our if you don't already have it. I have heard that Yogiji said a lot of different things about homosexuality. Some of it was positive and some of it negative. I don't know that Yogi Bhajan was clear, himself, on where he stood on homosexuality. I wonder if some of his cultural biases didn't influence his position. It appears to me that his ideas were evolving over time. Quite frankly, I just think he didn't quite know what to do with us. And I believe that he also knew that homosexuality was a problematic social issue that had the potential of being divisive but would ultimately become less and less of an issue. I choose to believe that he knew that homophobic beliefs would not be sustainable in The Aquarian Age and so he did not take a stand on homosexuality, but instead left it up to us to figure out. After all, many problems, when left alone, just fall away. So he left it up to the shifting consciousness of the Aquarian Age to take care of this issue and for us to figure out. As for the Humanology teachings, they are definitely very heterosexist. And I have found that the 3HO community in general is very heterosexist. At Solstice there is very much a " Don't ask, don't tell " feel unlike anything I have experienced before. The feeling of invisibility is stifling. But I managed to find other glbt people and have not tried to hide my sexuality in any way. In the innocence of many of the heterosexual members of the community, they are oblivious to this fact. Most people I have encountered honestly believe that it is a supportive community where everyone is welcome and they don't understand why anyone would feel insecure. Especially since they, themselves, don't have any issues personally with glbt people and like to think of themselves as supportive. For many of them, it is simply a non-issue. But for those of us coming in to such a community it can feel very unsafe, especially when we have a long history of being welcomed into communities that then try to change us or exile us. For what it's worth, I personally have not experienced any outward hostility, verbal or otherwise from anyone in 3HO or Sikh Dharma. And I think that is something these organizations should be proud of. There are some who have presented some ridiculously ignorant ideas. But you get that everywhere. One thing I will say about this community is that if you have issues that you are struggling with around your sexuality people are not likely to rush in to save you from such a gift. This is true about other issues you may be struggling with as well. This may be part of why the community can seem unwelcoming at first. People will sympathize, but they don't tend to interfere in your process. I think this is a good thing. What I have come to with the Humanology teachings is that I take them for what they are worth, a heterosexual teacher, teaching to heterosexuals about heterosexuality. I love the teachings, but I don't look to them for any kind of approval or recognition of my existence or identity. It is such a primal thing to come to this community and technology with a longing to belong. I think everyone brings that with them. But as a lesbian I need to be realistic. Who is really qualified to teach me about being a Lesbian? The answer is other Lesbians. So I take our obvious omissions and the unanswered questions with a grain of salt. One thing Yogi Bhajan was clear on is that to be a KY teacher or to be a Sikh it was up to the individual to initiate themselves. There's this way in which as glbt people we have learned to somehow ask for the permission of heterosexual people to be who we are. And then if we don't get that, we feel hurt, angry and abused. But in a way we set ourselves up for it. I am grateful that I get to initiate myself. Because it means that I don't have to ask anyone else's permission. I believe that my soul doesn't have a sexuality or a sexual orientation. And my sexual orientation is not WHO I truly am anyways. The course my soul charts is between me and God, and no one else can either give me permission or approval any more than they can stand in my way, although some people may certainly try. I hope this helps. I thought your questions deserved a response. And yet, I don't know that anyone really feels qualified to respond. It may be that there are no simple or blanket answers. Perhaps the answers need to be lived instead. I have tried to speak on behalf of myself and my experiences and not on behalf of anyone else or the communities in general. I hope what I have said is taken in that spirit. Sat Nam, Sunderta Kaur Kundalini-Yoga , Hannah <hannahakent wrote: > > Dear group -- I only have a phone as a computer right now so my editing abilities are limited and I initially sent this message from my other account... If you have a moment please scroll down ... To the next " dear group " .... > > Thank you , > > Hannah > > > > Dear group, > > I agave gone through the KRI level 1 kundalini teacher training (in 2005), and find myself deeply drawn to not only the teachings of yogi bhajan, but also the sikh identity. > > However, what I have read so far and what I fear is that gays and lesbians are not understood or respected within the yogi bhajan world ... That it is explained as a previous life mixed up with the present etc. And basically invalidated as a genuine reality/identity.. > > My question/statement/confusion is this ... > > While I agree that many people both gay and straight could learn from the modesty and grace of which yogi bhajan speaks ... I'm afraid he neglects to take in the complexities of biology ... What then is a transsex or dualy sexed person (one born with both sex parts)? > > And if god has created men with woman parts and women with man parts (to put it plainly) could She have created men with woman's brains woman's minds and so forth. In addition could not also our bodies be seen as less important than our true souls and our true soulmates? > > But i will step off my soap box ending with this final question. > > What is the 3ho stance on gay marraige, gay identity and gay rights? > > Could textual recommendations, lectures be suggested? To give me more targeted research? > > Thank you in advance for your time and thoughtful responses, > > Hannah > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Dear Sundertaji, Thank you for your informative reply. You have brought clear light to the question. There is also a group in the council that is for gay consideration or whatever. How does one sanction the rights of another? By not infringing on their rights that's how one sanctions the rights of the other. Therefore, there is no action. As for the non-action of the 3HO group, the commitment to kundalini is a commitment to the Self and to the Soul. Therefore, no one outside of you can do it for you. We have no rainbow banners flying. There are no KY banners flying either. The acceptance of the Self isn't easy, whatever your life choices are. Your choices are your choices and only you live with them. Once as a woman, I thought that men had it better. When I took a good look, I realized it isn't better, just different. It is the same with straights and gays. When gays say " We're not accepted by (whoever, name goes here). " It just isn't true. How do you know what I am thinking unless I am asked? This isn't to say there isn't prejudice of all kinds even in the KY community. We are all here because we are trying. We are not here because we have it " all figured out. " Blanket remarks are silly and extremely lacking in the compassion that is being requested. Many of us are straight, gay, lesbian, bi, transgendered and so are our children, parents, aunts and uncles. So what? When you can find a partner who treats you well and supports you in your path and in your soul, this is rare indeed. " I don't care who or what you are, just don't pretend you are what you aren't, " is my mantra on this or any other subject. Kind regards, Siri Bandhu Humble Moderator www.ottawaweddingsyourway.com - In Kundalini-Yoga , " Sunderta Kaur " <grateful2day wrote: > > Hi Hannah, > I am glad you raised this question of the 3HO stance on Gays. I wonder if anyone responded to it? I went through teacher training a few years ago and have immersed myself into the 3HO community. I took Sikh vows last summer at Summer Solstice and am considering taking Amrit, the full Sikh baptism. I wear bana and a turban in public and am living as a Sikh. I am also an out Lesbian and have been for 25 years. Did you know that there is a group of GLBT people associated with 3HO who have formed to support one another around questions such as yours? We are called the Rainbow Sangat and I can give you the information for our if you don't already have it. > > I have heard that Yogiji said a lot of different things about homosexuality. Some of it was positive and some of it negative. I don't know that Yogi Bhajan was clear, himself, on where he stood on homosexuality. I wonder if some of his cultural biases didn't influence his position. It appears to me that his ideas were evolving over time. Quite frankly, I just think he didn't quite know what to do with us. And I believe that he also knew that homosexuality was a problematic social issue that had the potential of being divisive but would ultimately become less and less of an issue. I choose to believe that he knew that homophobic beliefs would not be sustainable in The Aquarian Age and so he did not take a stand on homosexuality, but instead left it up to us to figure out. After all, many problems, when left alone, just fall away. So he left it up to the shifting consciousness of the Aquarian Age to take care of this issue and for us to figure out. > > As for the Humanology teachings, they are definitely very heterosexist. And I have found that the 3HO community in general is very heterosexist. At Solstice there is very much a " Don't ask, don't tell " feel unlike anything I have experienced before. The feeling of invisibility is stifling. But I managed to find other glbt people and have not tried to hide my sexuality in any way. In the innocence of many of the heterosexual members of the community, they are oblivious to this fact. Most people I have encountered honestly believe that it is a supportive community where everyone is welcome and they don't understand why anyone would feel insecure. Especially since they, themselves, don't have any issues personally with glbt people and like to think of themselves as supportive. For many of them, it is simply a non-issue. But for those of us coming in to such a community it can feel very unsafe, especially when we have a long history of being welcomed into communities that then try to change us or exile us. For what it's worth, I personally have not experienced any outward hostility, verbal or otherwise from anyone in 3HO or Sikh Dharma. And I think that is something these organizations should be proud of. There are some who have presented some ridiculously ignorant ideas. But you get that everywhere. > One thing I will say about this community is that if you have issues that you are struggling with around your sexuality people are not likely to rush in to save you from such a gift. This is true about other issues you may be struggling with as well. This may be part of why the community can seem unwelcoming at first. People will sympathize, but they don't tend to interfere in your process. I think this is a good thing. > > What I have come to with the Humanology teachings is that I take them for what they are worth, a heterosexual teacher, teaching to heterosexuals about heterosexuality. I love the teachings, but I don't look to them for any kind of approval or recognition of my existence or identity. It is such a primal thing to come to this community and technology with a longing to belong. I think everyone brings that with them. But as a lesbian I need to be realistic. Who is really qualified to teach me about being a Lesbian? The answer is other Lesbians. So I take our obvious omissions and the unanswered questions with a grain of salt. > > One thing Yogi Bhajan was clear on is that to be a KY teacher or to be a Sikh it was up to the individual to initiate themselves. There's this way in which as glbt people we have learned to somehow ask for the permission of heterosexual people to be who we are. And then if we don't get that, we feel hurt, angry and abused. But in a way we set ourselves up for it. I am grateful that I get to initiate myself. Because it means that I don't have to ask anyone else's permission. I believe that my soul doesn't have a sexuality or a sexual orientation. And my sexual orientation is not WHO I truly am anyways. The course my soul charts is between me and God, and no one else can either give me permission or approval any more than they can stand in my way, although some people may certainly try. > > I hope this helps. I thought your questions deserved a response. And yet, I don't know that anyone really feels qualified to respond. It may be that there are no simple or blanket answers. Perhaps the answers need to be lived instead. I have tried to speak on behalf of myself and my experiences and not on behalf of anyone else or the communities in general. I hope what I have said is taken in that spirit. > > Sat Nam, > Sunderta Kaur > > > Kundalini-Yoga , Hannah <hannahakent@> wrote: > > > > Dear group -- I only have a phone as a computer right now so my editing abilities are limited and I initially sent this message from my other account... If you have a moment please scroll down ... To the next " dear group " .... > > > > Thank you , > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > Dear group, > > > > I agave gone through the KRI level 1 kundalini teacher training (in 2005), and find myself deeply drawn to not only the teachings of yogi bhajan, but also the sikh identity. > > > > However, what I have read so far and what I fear is that gays and lesbians are not understood or respected within the yogi bhajan world ... That it is explained as a previous life mixed up with the present etc. And basically invalidated as a genuine reality/identity.. > > > > My question/statement/confusion is this ... > > > > While I agree that many people both gay and straight could learn from the modesty and grace of which yogi bhajan speaks ... I'm afraid he neglects to take in the complexities of biology ... What then is a transsex or dualy sexed person (one born with both sex parts)? > > > > And if god has created men with woman parts and women with man parts (to put it plainly) could She have created men with woman's brains woman's minds and so forth. In addition could not also our bodies be seen as less important than our true souls and our true soulmates? > > > > But i will step off my soap box ending with this final question. > > > > What is the 3ho stance on gay marraige, gay identity and gay rights? > > > > Could textual recommendations, lectures be suggested? To give me more targeted research? > > > > Thank you in advance for your time and thoughtful responses, > > > > Hannah > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 my brief two cents on this, a few years ago a woman at my retreat got upset and angry with ME because she saw chakra charts based on yogi bhajan's teachings that said being gay was a first chakra imbalance. She was bi-sexual. I called Sat Jivan kaur in NYC to ask her how to deal with it and she suggested that Yogi B had loosened his stance on this. However, we ALL have imbalances and I am pretty sure my first chakra has bee a big issue in other ways so should his stance make us angry?? Anger comes from fear somewhere.I also had an experience at womans camp where a young woman who i think was gay questioned yogi b about this in the evening lecture and he invited her to breakfast. I have no idea what they spoke about but she seemed alot happier and less angry about it all after meeting with him. Interesting! Wish i knew what he said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Thank you, Sunderta Kaur, for sharing your experiences and observations so thoughtfully. My wish is that 3HO would make it clear that all are welcome, regardless of race, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc. This would help to alleviate some of the questions that LGBT members and others may have about whether they are truly welcome.SimranHi Hannah,I am glad you raised this question of the 3HO stance on Gays. I wonder if anyone responded to it? I went through teacher training a few years ago and have immersed myself into the 3HO community. I took Sikh vows last summer at Summer Solstice and am considering taking Amrit, the full Sikh baptism. I wear bana and a turban in public and am living as a Sikh. I am also an out Lesbian and have been for 25 years. Did you know that there is a group of GLBT people associated with 3HO who have formed to support one another around questions such as yours? We are called the Rainbow Sangat and I can give you the information for our if you don't already have it.I have heard that Yogiji said a lot of different things about homosexuality. Some of it was positive and some of it negative. I don't know that Yogi Bhajan was clear, himself, on where he stood on homosexuality. I wonder if some of his cultural biases didn't influence his position. It appears to me that his ideas were evolving over time. Quite frankly, I just think he didn't quite know what to do with us. And I believe that he also knew that homosexuality was a problematic social issue that had the potential of being divisive but would ultimately become less and less of an issue. I choose to believe that he knew that homophobic beliefs would not be sustainable in The Aquarian Age and so he did not take a stand on homosexuality, but instead left it up to us to figure out. After all, many problems, when left alone, just fall away. So he left it up to the shifting consciousness of the Aquarian Age to take care of this issue and for us to figure out.As for the Humanology teachings, they are definitely very heterosexist. And I have found that the 3HO community in general is very heterosexist. At Solstice there is very much a "Don't ask, don't tell" feel unlike anything I have experienced before. The feeling of invisibility is stifling. But I managed to find other glbt people and have not tried to hide my sexuality in any way. In the innocence of many of the heterosexual members of the community, they are oblivious to this fact. Most people I have encountered honestly believe that it is a supportive community where everyone is welcome and they don't understand why anyone would feel insecure. Especially since they, themselves, don't have any issues personally with glbt people and like to think of themselves as supportive. For many of them, it is simply a non-issue. But for those of us coming in to such a community it can feel very unsafe, especially when we have a long history of being welcomed into communities that then try to change us or exile us. For what it's worth, I personally have not experienced any outward hostility, verbal or otherwise from anyone in 3HO or Sikh Dharma. And I think that is something these organizations should be proud of. There are some who have presented some ridiculously ignorant ideas. But you get that everywhere. One thing I will say about this community is that if you have issues that you are struggling with around your sexuality people are not likely to rush in to save you from such a gift. This is true about other issues you may be struggling with as well. This may be part of why the community can seem unwelcoming at first. People will sympathize, but they don't tend to interfere in your process. I think this is a good thing.What I have come to with the Humanology teachings is that I take them for what they are worth, a heterosexual teacher, teaching to heterosexuals about heterosexuality. I love the teachings, but I don't look to them for any kind of approval or recognition of my existence or identity. It is such a primal thing to come to this community and technology with a longing to belong. I think everyone brings that with them. But as a lesbian I need to be realistic. Who is really qualified to teach me about being a Lesbian? The answer is other Lesbians. So I take our obvious omissions and the unanswered questions with a grain of salt.One thing Yogi Bhajan was clear on is that to be a KY teacher or to be a Sikh it was up to the individual to initiate themselves. There's this way in which as glbt people we have learned to somehow ask for the permission of heterosexual people to be who we are. And then if we don't get that, we feel hurt, angry and abused. But in a way we set ourselves up for it. I am grateful that I get to initiate myself. Because it means that I don't have to ask anyone else's permission. I believe that my soul doesn't have a sexuality or a sexual orientation. And my sexual orientation is not WHO I truly am anyways. The course my soul charts is between me and God, and no one else can either give me permission or approval any more than they can stand in my way, although some people may certainly try.I hope this helps. I thought your questions deserved a response. And yet, I don't know that anyone really feels qualified to respond. It may be that there are no simple or blanket answers. Perhaps the answers need to be lived instead. I have tried to speak on behalf of myself and my experiences and not on behalf of anyone else or the communities in general. I hope what I have said is taken in that spirit.Sat Nam,Sunderta Kaur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 Sat Nam, Tho I've always thought civil unions should be a first step--this would not have allowed Karl Rove to outlaw gay marriages and civil unions in 20 plus states. No country in the world has adopted gay marriage without first adopting civil unions. That said I thni 3HO could take a lesson from the Unitarians and United Church of Christ and other local congregations of many faiths to be openly " welcoming and affirming " to all. And this means welcoming and affirming, not just tolerating. After all, who knows who in their next lifetime might be gay? Peace to all, love to all, John Iversen (ram Das Singh) > > Thank you, Sunderta Kaur, for sharing your experiences and > observations so thoughtfully. My wish is that 3HO would make it > clear that all are welcome, regardless of race, sexual orientation, > religious affiliation, etc. This would help to alleviate some of the > questions that LGBT members and others may have about whether they > are truly welcome. > Simran > > > > Hi Hannah, > > I am glad you raised this question of the 3HO stance on Gays. I > > wonder if anyone responded to it? I went through teacher training a > > few years ago and have immersed myself into the 3HO community. I > > took Sikh vows last summer at Summer Solstice and am considering > > taking Amrit, the full Sikh baptism. I wear bana and a turban in > > public and am living as a Sikh. I am also an out Lesbian and have > > been for 25 years. Did you know that there is a group of GLBT > > people associated with 3HO who have formed to support one another > > around questions such as yours? We are called the Rainbow Sangat > > and I can give you the information for our if you don't > > already have it. > > > > I have heard that Yogiji said a lot of different things about > > homosexuality. Some of it was positive and some of it negative. I > > don't know that Yogi Bhajan was clear, himself, on where he stood > > on homosexuality. I wonder if some of his cultural biases didn't > > influence his position. It appears to me that his ideas were > > evolving over time. Quite frankly, I just think he didn't quite > > know what to do with us. And I believe that he also knew that > > homosexuality was a problematic social issue that had the potential > > of being divisive but would ultimately become less and less of an > > issue. I choose to believe that he knew that homophobic beliefs > > would not be sustainable in The Aquarian Age and so he did not take > > a stand on homosexuality, but instead left it up to us to figure > > out. After all, many problems, when left alone, just fall away. So > > he left it up to the shifting consciousness of the Aquarian Age to > > take care of this issue and for us to figure out. > > > > As for the Humanology teachings, they are definitely very > > heterosexist. And I have found that the 3HO community in general is > > very heterosexist. At Solstice there is very much a " Don't ask, > > don't tell " feel unlike anything I have experienced before. The > > feeling of invisibility is stifling. But I managed to find other > > glbt people and have not tried to hide my sexuality in any way. In > > the innocence of many of the heterosexual members of the community, > > they are oblivious to this fact. Most people I have encountered > > honestly believe that it is a supportive community where everyone > > is welcome and they don't understand why anyone would feel > > insecure. Especially since they, themselves, don't have any issues > > personally with glbt people and like to think of themselves as > > supportive. For many of them, it is simply a non-issue. But for > > those of us coming in to such a community it can feel very unsafe, > > especially when we have a long history of being welcomed into > > communities that then try to change us or exile us. For what it's > > worth, I personally have not experienced any outward hostility, > > verbal or otherwise from anyone in 3HO or Sikh Dharma. And I think > > that is something these organizations should be proud of. There are > > some who have presented some ridiculously ignorant ideas. But you > > get that everywhere. > > One thing I will say about this community is that if you have > > issues that you are struggling with around your sexuality people > > are not likely to rush in to save you from such a gift. This is > > true about other issues you may be struggling with as well. This > > may be part of why the community can seem unwelcoming at first. > > People will sympathize, but they don't tend to interfere in your > > process. I think this is a good thing. > > > > What I have come to with the Humanology teachings is that I take > > them for what they are worth, a heterosexual teacher, teaching to > > heterosexuals about heterosexuality. I love the teachings, but I > > don't look to them for any kind of approval or recognition of my > > existence or identity. It is such a primal thing to come to this > > community and technology with a longing to belong. I think everyone > > brings that with them. But as a lesbian I need to be realistic. Who > > is really qualified to teach me about being a Lesbian? The answer > > is other Lesbians. So I take our obvious omissions and the > > unanswered questions with a grain of salt. > > > > One thing Yogi Bhajan was clear on is that to be a KY teacher or to > > be a Sikh it was up to the individual to initiate themselves. > > There's this way in which as glbt people we have learned to somehow > > ask for the permission of heterosexual people to be who we are. And > > then if we don't get that, we feel hurt, angry and abused. But in a > > way we set ourselves up for it. I am grateful that I get to > > initiate myself. Because it means that I don't have to ask anyone > > else's permission. I believe that my soul doesn't have a sexuality > > or a sexual orientation. And my sexual orientation is not WHO I > > truly am anyways. The course my soul charts is between me and God, > > and no one else can either give me permission or approval any more > > than they can stand in my way, although some people may certainly try. > > > > I hope this helps. I thought your questions deserved a response. > > And yet, I don't know that anyone really feels qualified to > > respond. It may be that there are no simple or blanket answers. > > Perhaps the answers need to be lived instead. I have tried to speak > > on behalf of myself and my experiences and not on behalf of anyone > > else or the communities in general. I hope what I have said is > > taken in that spirit. > > > > Sat Nam, > > Sunderta Kaur > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 I feel satisfied with this conversation, as my understanding of the issues has been expanded. I had sadness a while back when the GLBT formed another group, as I wanted to find out what were the issues for them in being/living Kundalini Yoga. This would have assisted me in mutual respect. To put the issue in wider perspective, Yogi Bhajan left no " group " untouched in his teaching style of poke, provoke, confront and elevate. Our culture has a very high use and abuse of " sexual energy " so the GLBT issue is super charged, on both a personal and community level. The discussion has reminded me of the Kundalini Yoga teachers oath: " I am not a woman, I am not a man, I am not a person, I am not myself, I am a teacher. " As it pertains to the entire spectrum of GLBT and how I personally explain to those asking about Kundalini Yoga and even Sikh Dharma. " everyone is welcome, we have a live and let live attitude plus we don't lead with our sexuality " Sat Ganesha " participate, share, contribute " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Hi all, Finally got a new computer so I'm back into the conversation. Thank you to all who have contributed to sharing in response to my post . . . Sunderta I would love to know the URL for the LBGT Kundalini . . I certainly have more targeted questions and would love to see the conversations there. I've been educating myself on Yogi Bhajan's views, among other things, via reading Women's Camp lectures. .. I've found so much of what he teaches to be so helpful and though I'm just not one to swallow things with out delving deeply while personally questioning as I need to along the way, I think neurosis and an unhealthy necessity to use sex as a SOLE means to attract people is important to question in our behavior and in this American culture. I NEVER could see another perspective about modesty . . . I never understood a positive side to it (it had seemed controlling and repressed) until Kundalini yoga came into my life. . . and to be honest . . . I feel my inner being growing as I continue to meditate and digest my readings. Today I was walking tall.. .literally walking around with the best posture I've had in a while due to some kind of an internal healing . . . and I certainly owe it at least in part to the dialogues I have with Yogi Bhajan every day . . ..though I began my Kundalini journey shortly after his passing. . . . his memory, videos, lectures etc certainly live on via you tube and text and of course the wonderful classes. . . in searching this with the phrase " gay marriage " I came across an old posting about a woman to whom Yogi Bhajan had knowingly married to a Gay man back in 1971. . .whoa. . that's a whole 'nother sack of beans for me. . . So a few further questions. 1. Where does 3HO stand on the idea that men and women can/should be " healed " or " changed " from gay or lesbian to straight? 2. How does this relate to the global sikh communities view point? 3. How do you as a member of the American Sikh/Kundalini community feel either way? I have been personally imagining myself, for the purpose of feeling it out, wearing full American Kundalini Sikh attire and committing fully to the American Sikh/Kunalini Teacher life style. I have not been ABLE to do so as of yet and clearly am ambivalent as to whether I would want to . . . which is where all these questions arise. I have MUCH respect for the men and women I have met personally and read etc. who have taken on this commitment to a deeply spiritual life style.. .balancing the householder and the deeply divine existence. . .and part of me sees myself there. . .but before i even feel COMFORTABLE beginning to TEACH kundalini to a group of people in regular classes I need/want to know more. It's about responsibility for me. My responsibility. And while if I take the obvious perspective that God is great and will guide me and is in control anyway. . . I could perhaps stop being so worried. . .but as I said. . I guess I'm not there yet and respect the POWER of Kundalini yoga too much to risk not being there for my students. Sat Nam and blessings to you all, Hannah Kundalini-Yoga , " Sunderta Kaur " <grateful2day wrote: > > Hi Hannah, > I am glad you raised this question of the 3HO stance on Gays. I wonder if anyone responded to it? I went through teacher training a few years ago and have immersed myself into the 3HO community. I took Sikh vows last summer at Summer Solstice and am considering taking Amrit, the full Sikh baptism. I wear bana and a turban in public and am living as a Sikh. I am also an out Lesbian and have been for 25 years. Did you know that there is a group of GLBT people associated with 3HO who have formed to support one another around questions such as yours? We are called the Rainbow Sangat and I can give you the information for our if you don't already have it. > > I have heard that Yogiji said a lot of different things about homosexuality. Some of it was positive and some of it negative. I don't know that Yogi Bhajan was clear, himself, on where he stood on homosexuality. I wonder if some of his cultural biases didn't influence his position. It appears to me that his ideas were evolving over time. Quite frankly, I just think he didn't quite know what to do with us. And I believe that he also knew that homosexuality was a problematic social issue that had the potential of being divisive but would ultimately become less and less of an issue. I choose to believe that he knew that homophobic beliefs would not be sustainable in The Aquarian Age and so he did not take a stand on homosexuality, but instead left it up to us to figure out. After all, many problems, when left alone, just fall away. So he left it up to the shifting consciousness of the Aquarian Age to take care of this issue and for us to figure out. > > As for the Humanology teachings, they are definitely very heterosexist. And I have found that the 3HO community in general is very heterosexist. At Solstice there is very much a " Don't ask, don't tell " feel unlike anything I have experienced before. The feeling of invisibility is stifling. But I managed to find other glbt people and have not tried to hide my sexuality in any way. In the innocence of many of the heterosexual members of the community, they are oblivious to this fact. Most people I have encountered honestly believe that it is a supportive community where everyone is welcome and they don't understand why anyone would feel insecure. Especially since they, themselves, don't have any issues personally with glbt people and like to think of themselves as supportive. For many of them, it is simply a non-issue. But for those of us coming in to such a community it can feel very unsafe, especially when we have a long history of being welcomed into communities that then try to change us or exile us. For what it's worth, I personally have not experienced any outward hostility, verbal or otherwise from anyone in 3HO or Sikh Dharma. And I think that is something these organizations should be proud of. There are some who have presented some ridiculously ignorant ideas. But you get that everywhere. > One thing I will say about this community is that if you have issues that you are struggling with around your sexuality people are not likely to rush in to save you from such a gift. This is true about other issues you may be struggling with as well. This may be part of why the community can seem unwelcoming at first. People will sympathize, but they don't tend to interfere in your process. I think this is a good thing. > > What I have come to with the Humanology teachings is that I take them for what they are worth, a heterosexual teacher, teaching to heterosexuals about heterosexuality. I love the teachings, but I don't look to them for any kind of approval or recognition of my existence or identity. It is such a primal thing to come to this community and technology with a longing to belong. I think everyone brings that with them. But as a lesbian I need to be realistic. Who is really qualified to teach me about being a Lesbian? The answer is other Lesbians. So I take our obvious omissions and the unanswered questions with a grain of salt. > > One thing Yogi Bhajan was clear on is that to be a KY teacher or to be a Sikh it was up to the individual to initiate themselves. There's this way in which as glbt people we have learned to somehow ask for the permission of heterosexual people to be who we are. And then if we don't get that, we feel hurt, angry and abused. But in a way we set ourselves up for it. I am grateful that I get to initiate myself. Because it means that I don't have to ask anyone else's permission. I believe that my soul doesn't have a sexuality or a sexual orientation. And my sexual orientation is not WHO I truly am anyways. The course my soul charts is between me and God, and no one else can either give me permission or approval any more than they can stand in my way, although some people may certainly try. > > I hope this helps. I thought your questions deserved a response. And yet, I don't know that anyone really feels qualified to respond. It may be that there are no simple or blanket answers. Perhaps the answers need to be lived instead. I have tried to speak on behalf of myself and my experiences and not on behalf of anyone else or the communities in general. I hope what I have said is taken in that spirit. > > Sat Nam, > Sunderta Kaur > > > Kundalini-Yoga , Hannah <hannahakent@> wrote: > > > > Dear group -- I only have a phone as a computer right now so my editing abilities are limited and I initially sent this message from my other account... If you have a moment please scroll down ... To the next " dear group " .... > > > > Thank you , > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > Dear group, > > > > I agave gone through the KRI level 1 kundalini teacher training (in 2005), and find myself deeply drawn to not only the teachings of yogi bhajan, but also the sikh identity. > > > > However, what I have read so far and what I fear is that gays and lesbians are not understood or respected within the yogi bhajan world ... That it is explained as a previous life mixed up with the present etc. And basically invalidated as a genuine reality/identity.. > > > > My question/statement/confusion is this ... > > > > While I agree that many people both gay and straight could learn from the modesty and grace of which yogi bhajan speaks ... I'm afraid he neglects to take in the complexities of biology ... What then is a transsex or dualy sexed person (one born with both sex parts)? > > > > And if god has created men with woman parts and women with man parts (to put it plainly) could She have created men with woman's brains woman's minds and so forth. In addition could not also our bodies be seen as less important than our true souls and our true soulmates? > > > > But i will step off my soap box ending with this final question. > > > > What is the 3ho stance on gay marraige, gay identity and gay rights? > > > > Could textual recommendations, lectures be suggested? To give me more targeted research? > > > > Thank you in advance for your time and thoughtful responses, > > > > Hannah > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 ---Sat Nam I just wanted to thank you Sundarta Kaur for giving me information I did not know about Gay and Lesbian support with in 3HO Thankn God. This was not a welcoming climate for Gays/Lesbians for a longs time and yes Yogi Bhajan's stance was coming from a very homophobic country. His stance softened over the years. He alsways said there is the teacher and the man don't confus them. Just wanted to thank you.Please feel free to connect with me any time Blessings Gurutej follow me www.twitter.com/gurutej www.theenergygurus.com www.gurutej.com follow me http://www.theenergyguru.blogspot.com/ " Diamonds or Dust the choice is yours both are created by pressure " . What do you do with yours? 310-734-6776 In Kundalini-Yoga , " johniversen94702 " <johniversen94702 wrote: > > Sat Nam, Tho I've always thought civil unions should be a first step--this would not have allowed Karl Rove to outlaw gay marriages and civil unions in 20 plus states. No country in the world has adopted gay marriage without first adopting civil unions. That said I thni 3HO could take a lesson from the Unitarians and United Church of Christ and other local congregations of many faiths to be openly " welcoming and affirming " to all. And this means welcoming and affirming, not just tolerating. After all, who knows who in their next lifetime might be gay? > > Peace to all, love to all, John Iversen (ram Das Singh) > > > > Thank you, Sunderta Kaur, for sharing your experiences and > > observations so thoughtfully. My wish is that 3HO would make it > > clear that all are welcome, regardless of race, sexual orientation, > > religious affiliation, etc. This would help to alleviate some of the > > questions that LGBT members and others may have about whether they > > are truly welcome. > > Simran > > > > > > > Hi Hannah, > > > I am glad you raised this question of the 3HO stance on Gays. I > > > wonder if anyone responded to it? I went through teacher training a > > > few years ago and have immersed myself into the 3HO community. I > > > took Sikh vows last summer at Summer Solstice and am considering > > > taking Amrit, the full Sikh baptism. I wear bana and a turban in > > > public and am living as a Sikh. I am also an out Lesbian and have > > > been for 25 years. Did you know that there is a group of GLBT > > > people associated with 3HO who have formed to support one another > > > around questions such as yours? We are called the Rainbow Sangat > > > and I can give you the information for our if you don't > > > already have it. > > > > > > I have heard that Yogiji said a lot of different things about > > > homosexuality. Some of it was positive and some of it negative. I > > > don't know that Yogi Bhajan was clear, himself, on where he stood > > > on homosexuality. I wonder if some of his cultural biases didn't > > > influence his position. It appears to me that his ideas were > > > evolving over time. Quite frankly, I just think he didn't quite > > > know what to do with us. And I believe that he also knew that > > > homosexuality was a problematic social issue that had the potential > > > of being divisive but would ultimately become less and less of an > > > issue. I choose to believe that he knew that homophobic beliefs > > > would not be sustainable in The Aquarian Age and so he did not take > > > a stand on homosexuality, but instead left it up to us to figure > > > out. After all, many problems, when left alone, just fall away. So > > > he left it up to the shifting consciousness of the Aquarian Age to > > > take care of this issue and for us to figure out. > > > > > > As for the Humanology teachings, they are definitely very > > > heterosexist. And I have found that the 3HO community in general is > > > very heterosexist. At Solstice there is very much a " Don't ask, > > > don't tell " feel unlike anything I have experienced before. The > > > feeling of invisibility is stifling. But I managed to find other > > > glbt people and have not tried to hide my sexuality in any way. In > > > the innocence of many of the heterosexual members of the community, > > > they are oblivious to this fact. Most people I have encountered > > > honestly believe that it is a supportive community where everyone > > > is welcome and they don't understand why anyone would feel > > > insecure. Especially since they, themselves, don't have any issues > > > personally with glbt people and like to think of themselves as > > > supportive. For many of them, it is simply a non-issue. But for > > > those of us coming in to such a community it can feel very unsafe, > > > especially when we have a long history of being welcomed into > > > communities that then try to change us or exile us. For what it's > > > worth, I personally have not experienced any outward hostility, > > > verbal or otherwise from anyone in 3HO or Sikh Dharma. And I think > > > that is something these organizations should be proud of. There are > > > some who have presented some ridiculously ignorant ideas. But you > > > get that everywhere. > > > One thing I will say about this community is that if you have > > > issues that you are struggling with around your sexuality people > > > are not likely to rush in to save you from such a gift. This is > > > true about other issues you may be struggling with as well. This > > > may be part of why the community can seem unwelcoming at first. > > > People will sympathize, but they don't tend to interfere in your > > > process. I think this is a good thing. > > > > > > What I have come to with the Humanology teachings is that I take > > > them for what they are worth, a heterosexual teacher, teaching to > > > heterosexuals about heterosexuality. I love the teachings, but I > > > don't look to them for any kind of approval or recognition of my > > > existence or identity. It is such a primal thing to come to this > > > community and technology with a longing to belong. I think everyone > > > brings that with them. But as a lesbian I need to be realistic. Who > > > is really qualified to teach me about being a Lesbian? The answer > > > is other Lesbians. So I take our obvious omissions and the > > > unanswered questions with a grain of salt. > > > > > > One thing Yogi Bhajan was clear on is that to be a KY teacher or to > > > be a Sikh it was up to the individual to initiate themselves. > > > There's this way in which as glbt people we have learned to somehow > > > ask for the permission of heterosexual people to be who we are. And > > > then if we don't get that, we feel hurt, angry and abused. But in a > > > way we set ourselves up for it. I am grateful that I get to > > > initiate myself. Because it means that I don't have to ask anyone > > > else's permission. I believe that my soul doesn't have a sexuality > > > or a sexual orientation. And my sexual orientation is not WHO I > > > truly am anyways. The course my soul charts is between me and God, > > > and no one else can either give me permission or approval any more > > > than they can stand in my way, although some people may certainly try. > > > > > > I hope this helps. I thought your questions deserved a response. > > > And yet, I don't know that anyone really feels qualified to > > > respond. It may be that there are no simple or blanket answers. > > > Perhaps the answers need to be lived instead. I have tried to speak > > > on behalf of myself and my experiences and not on behalf of anyone > > > else or the communities in general. I hope what I have said is > > > taken in that spirit. > > > > > > Sat Nam, > > > Sunderta Kaur > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in, something my mother says I've been doing since the first words came out of my mouth. I am a gay man, openly gay, and have been for about 23 years, before that having suppressed it due to the Baptist environment I grew up in's stance on the subject, but I did come out at 16 and basically said screw the church because what was important to me was my relationship with god, not anyone elses idea of what my relationship with god should be. It always seemed like too personal a journey to leave up to someone else, to me anyway, even at 16. When I started practicing ashtanga yoga at almost 30 in 2000 I noticed it was blatantly absent from discussion and when I attended any events with other ashtangis or studied with Pattabhi Jois, it was never discussed and someone mentioned to me it was because of the overly Indian influence in the system, and in India it is frowned upon, but the same person said does it matter what they think, what do you think? Again, right back to where I stood already with my original church. THen I began practicing Anusara, same thing, old Indian ideas but a much more welcoming environment due to the Tantric background of that system and they would discuss it and it came to the point of it only really matters what you think, what you believe, not what John Friend or anyone else believes. Duh! So, I was practicing kundalini sporadically the whole time, not delving deeply into its teaching, just once a week practice. Then this past 2 years as I've gotten deeper into in and mostly practicing sets laid out by Yogi Bhajan rather than hatha yoga (lately anyway) and feeling better and better, and attending my first White Tantric Yoga and buying more books and reading more of his teachings and ideas of things I began to wonder. And then came across this discussion. I'm currently reading The Mind by Yogi Bhajan and it occurs to me that he is teaching all of us to be our own expressions of the divine. He initially didn't even want people to become Sikh, just to become teachers and spread the teaching around the country to get everyone more prepared for the oncoming Aquarian age and was flabbergasted when they started wearing turbans and following Sikhism, which I have even found myself diving into its teachings. So I guess what I'm getting at, after a very lengthy amount of words is that does it matter what the 3HO or other Sikhs or even your neighbor thinks of you? I ask myself these things all the time. Does it matter what so and so thinks, not really. I want to become the biggest, most gracious, wonderful, abundant, powerful and loving expression of god I can, to lead by example and to inspire others to want that inner glow that I am now told I have. And to have those clear bright eyes that I am now told I have, and to be the best individual they can be, no matter the circumstance. And to do that I am going to get up in the morning and do my meditations and kriyas and breathwork and teach my classes and meet men that I may fall in love with or just befriend or both! And walk down the street with my head held high, even with my unruly beard and hair getting longer by the day and my white shirts on and my kara worn on my wrist, prayer beads, all of it. I know I'm in touch with the god that lives in my soul and I want that to shine out thru my body and inspire others to want to get in touch with the god thats in them and so on and so on, so I'm not worried what anyone thinks about the fact that I'm a gay man, who may or may not become a baptised Sikh but who for sure is going thru his teacher training to become KRI certified this fall and will be proud to be a gay man teaching kriyas and meditations as laid out by YOgi Bhajan. Sat Nam to all and have a wonderful day! Sat Inder Singh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Sat nam Sat Inder Singh- All I have to say is Wahe Guru, Wahe Guru, Wahe Guru, Wahe Guru!!! I've been wearing my turban more and more to work, which at first people looked at me funny, made nervous comments. Today, with me turbaned with a flow-y white scarf, my co-worker turns to me and says " I love it when you dress like that, you make me feel peaceful and calm " . I thought, that is the best complement I've ever had. That's the greatest payoff for this lifestyle, having the inner peace we've created vibrate out and inspire and affect others, just with our presence. Peace in our hearts, in our homes, in our lives, in our communities, in the nation, in the world. Keep rockin on! Kehar Kaur Kundalini-Yoga , " astangi70 " <astangi70 wrote: > I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth in, something my mother says I've been doing since the first words came out of my mouth. > I am a gay man, openly gay, and have been for about 23 years, before that having suppressed it due to the Baptist environment I grew up in's stance on the subject, but I did come out at 16 and basically said screw the church because what was important to me was my relationship with god, not anyone elses idea of what my relationship with god should be. It always seemed like too personal a journey to leave up to someone else, to me anyway, even at 16. > > When I started practicing ashtanga yoga at almost 30 in 2000 I noticed it was blatantly absent from discussion and when I attended any events with other ashtangis or studied with Pattabhi Jois, it was never discussed and someone mentioned to me it was because of the overly Indian influence in the system, and in India it is frowned upon, but the same person said does it matter what they think, what do you think? Again, right back to where I stood already with my original church. > > THen I began practicing Anusara, same thing, old Indian ideas but a much more welcoming environment due to the Tantric background of that system and they would discuss it and it came to the point of it only really matters what you think, what you believe, not what John Friend or anyone else believes. Duh! > > So, I was practicing kundalini sporadically the whole time, not delving deeply into its teaching, just once a week practice. Then this past 2 years as I've gotten deeper into in and mostly practicing sets laid out by Yogi Bhajan rather than hatha yoga (lately anyway) and feeling better and better, and attending my first White Tantric Yoga and buying more books and reading more of his teachings and ideas of things I began to wonder. And then came across this discussion. > > I'm currently reading The Mind by Yogi Bhajan and it occurs to me that he is teaching all of us to be our own expressions of the divine. He initially didn't even want people to become Sikh, just to become teachers and spread the teaching around the country to get everyone more prepared for the oncoming Aquarian age and was flabbergasted when they started wearing turbans and following Sikhism, which I have even found myself diving into its teachings. > > So I guess what I'm getting at, after a very lengthy amount of words is that does it matter what the 3HO or other Sikhs or even your neighbor thinks of you? I ask myself these things all the time. Does it matter what so and so thinks, not really. I want to become the biggest, most gracious, wonderful, abundant, powerful and loving expression of god I can, to lead by example and to inspire others to want that inner glow that I am now told I have. And to have those clear bright eyes that I am now told I have, and to be the best individual they can be, no matter the circumstance. > > And to do that I am going to get up in the morning and do my meditations and kriyas and breathwork and teach my classes and meet men that I may fall in love with or just befriend or both! And walk down the street with my head held high, even with my unruly beard and hair getting longer by the day and my white shirts on and my kara worn on my wrist, prayer beads, all of it. > > I know I'm in touch with the god that lives in my soul and I want that to shine out thru my body and inspire others to want to get in touch with the god thats in them and so on and so on, so I'm not worried what anyone thinks about the fact that I'm a gay man, who may or may not become a baptised Sikh but who for sure is going thru his teacher training to become KRI certified this fall and will be proud to be a gay man teaching kriyas and meditations as laid out by YOgi Bhajan. > > Sat Nam to all and have a wonderful day! > > Sat Inder Singh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 The pride on these threads is amazing! I love to see this community GROW!wahe guru,-Baba Singh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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