Guest guest Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Sat Nam, On principle I object to Sat Avtar's dismissive allegations that have all the tone and arrogance of a witch hunt. This is slander and judgment in absentia. I request a full retraction from Sat Avatar. If she has any issues or allegations to bring forward about anyone, let it be done with fairness and equanimity. Her email in its current form is poisonous and diametrically opposed to the way Yogi Bhajan taught and communicated. There is a way to express dissent appropriately. " This way " is so far off the mark it is shocking to be posted here. May the long time Sun shine upon you - Krishna Singh ********************************* Posted by: " sat_avtar_kaur " myralorey sat_avtar_kaur Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:16 am (PST) In my research of this teacher, I have found considerable negativity, about his teaching methods, and business practice. He is not certified by 3ho or Yoga Alliance. My information says that they both threw him out. He is someone to stay away from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Sat Nam, You are entitled to your perceptions, Krishna Singh, as I am to mine. It you, who is using the words " tone and arrogance of a witch hunt'. These are your perceptions, they have nothing to do with me. I have had nothing, but the greatest respect for you. Apparently, that is mis-placed, on my part. What happened to your training in NVC? Would it not have been better, that you asked, for proof or where I came up with the idea? Oh, by the way, I got a private email, from a Kundalini Yoga Teacher, who warned me about this man. So not everyone, thinks the way you do. You talk about fairness, but I don't think you are being fair. I did not 'slander' anyone. I stated an opinion. You think that my little email is slander? I know, what slander is, because, I have been slandered, by a Kundalini Yoga Teacher. My Kundalini Yoga Teacher, the second and last one, I have ever had. I loved her classes. I actually thought we were friends. My assumption. That Kundalini Yoga Teacher sent an email, to a new student, who had only two classes and was a friend of mine at that time. I have never been so deeply hurt, as I have been, and still am, with what this teacher said about me, based on her assumptions. I have worked on releasing this, since May of 2007. And, I still can't resolve it. This is what slander is: > ms lorey > Thu, 31 May 2007 14:40:11 EDT > > Hi, > > I've been cruising the web, Google-ing. I'm not a professional > psychologist but it appears to me that Myra is a Borderline Personality Disorder > person (BPD). There are many sites that define the 9 symptoms of BPD. > Wikepedia is a good place to start if you're interested. If you continue to associate with > her I want you to be careful. Her reality is very distorted--not her fault. (signature removed) Krishna Singh, you know all about this. Because you were involved. (and another teacher as well) Now, if I leave this statement as it is, a lot people are going to wonder about you, too. But, I am not going to do that. I am going to clarify. Krishna Singh offered to meditate, but at that time, we could bring it off. And the situation lingers, she does not look me in the eye, or speak, if we attend the same workshop. I considered at the time, taking her to court, and suing but, I decided that since I knew so little about Kundalini Yoga, that I would take that route in resolving this. I had an 8 month heavy chant practice. I am still chanting. It is not with me every day, but it keeps coming up. Kirtan Kriya is quite helpful. So, Krishna Singh, you are worried about " Who is this KY Teacher? " But you did not counteract with positive, upbeat information on this person. Why not, if you are so worried, on principle. Here are the urls that was sent to me and others I found, check it out for yourself, make your own decisions. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/2598.html?1180529399 http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/339.html?1121347574 http://omgili.com/jmp/jHIAmI4hxg9d1iQWAe70cRWtshCsrVe5ARhKqCYXd4gVvcMel6P4duGOP9\ KDbrZr0CmVjiUEsYXHX46LeZ_CfdwLWeJQnfF0VAYl.2tdjITDcxYEjW825uIL24h5q8WnY7cJBSPU6R\ fJxZgSUZ2Q4Rbbf09.zZOZXSKuUMmE1u3NGgwxGBP4sF3spTSrtchktN6j_Cuoem8WACnwoNCkDHHC72\ UtK4UxwVvZ_W_UtKA- http://www.ripoffreport.com/Seminar-Programs/Yogi-Akal-Internatio/yogi-akal-inte\ rnational-school-m2489.htm Report: #280904 Sat Avtar Kaur Myra Lorey ps- long reflection on this 'stuff' and some other weird experiences, I had with Kundalini Yoga Teachers, (the first 5 I ever met) has led me to feel that there is a lack in the Teachers Training. None of the 5 teachers, were able to use the word 'No' or take charge of the conversations and emails. One of them, sent an email, the night before, stating how much fun we were going to have, the next day, I got an email from her, stating that I was not on a high enough gracious level for her to deal with, and it would take me, 10 lifetimes to reach her level, and even then, she did not want to know me. I have no idea, what she was talking about, why she sent it - No- would have worked -- very childish. oops, is that slander, too? After class, one day this teacher said she could give me some kriyas that would overcome the negativity in my life. It took me about 5 questions, to find out what she was basing this remark on. It seems that in class, I said 'ouch' and 'ouch', when I pushed myself too hard. I told her that pain is neither positive nor negative. It just is. pps. There is a Teacher in Seattle, that gives classes on Compassionate Communication combined with NVC. According to Nonviolent Communication founder Marshall Rosenberg, empathy is a respectful understanding of what others are experiencing. NVC offers us concrete tools to increase our skills in empathic listening which result in effective resolution of conflicts, bridging of ideological divides, and wise use of our resources on personal, national and global levels. " Rather than getting caught up in the story the speaker is telling, with NVC-type empathic listening, we listen for two underlying, key components: feelings and needs. Listening for feelings and needs will keep us focused, centered and open, rather than being drawn into judgment of either the speaker or the people the speaker may be judging. " I think all Kundalini Yoga Teachers should be required to take a class in NVC. My perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 I agree with Krishna. I love Sat Avtar and all the great work she does. Even though this is advertised at 3HO and IKYTA, it's taken on a life of its own, and its ethic is to be as inclusive and open as possible, just as Yogi Bhajan said would be the characteristic of the emerging Aquarian Age. We don't want to use man-made rules, such as IKYTA guidelines, or any other rules made by self-proclaimed rulers, by, as we libertarians tend to disparage, " Information Cartels " , to sideline any value from any valuable person. If anything, if anyone knows this " controversial " yogi, INVITE HIM TO JOIN THIS GROUP! I've gotten several " mavericks " to join this group, and our group's value has increased as a result. Yogi Bhajan created HUMANOLOGY out of his experience and knowledge - that's the very definition of the act of an entrepreneur (and why " Intellectual Property " is such a dangerous concept): if all an entrepreneur does is take previous expertise and repackage it in a more valuable way, that's perfectly legitimate. It should be encouraged! If yogic masters want to take Yogi Bhajan's teachings and repackage them in a more consumer-friendly way, why shouldn't we embrace that? At the same time, most of us like how 3HO and IKYTA are doing their own repackaging, since it's a wonderful group effort to stay as faithful as possible to the " original intent " of the Master. Kundalini Yoga, and Yogi Bhajan's humanology, are huge worlds. Some of it is trademarked, most of it is preserved by the institutions whose work should be praised, but in any effort there will be mavericks with a lot of creative energy that also should be honored. Sat nam, Amar Atma Kundalini-Yoga , " sevaplace01 " <krishna wrote: > > Sat Nam, > On principle I object to Sat Avtar's dismissive allegations that have all the tone and arrogance of a witch hunt. This is slander and judgment in absentia. I request a full retraction from Sat Avatar. If she has any issues or allegations to bring forward about anyone, let it be done with fairness and equanimity. Her email in its current form is poisonous and diametrically opposed to the way Yogi Bhajan taught and communicated. There is a way to express dissent appropriately. " This way " is so far off the mark it is shocking to be posted here. > > May the long time Sun shine upon you - > Krishna Singh > > ********************************* > > Posted by: " sat_avtar_kaur " myralorey sat_avtar_kaur > Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:16 am (PST) > > > > In my research of this teacher, I have found considerable negativity, about his teaching methods, and business practice. > > He is not certified by 3ho or Yoga Alliance. My information says that they both threw him out. > > He is someone to stay away from. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Sat nam. I want to hang out with this yoga teacher (although, a teacher is technically not a friend, they are our spiritual chisels...), he just seems cool. By the way, in your second link: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/339.html?1121347574 About a 1/5th of the way down the page getting into the posts, most of these allegations are refuted and exposed as fraudulent, or more likely what they are; simply dissatisfied people (most of whom posted under " anonymous " ) angrily spreading allegations in an online forum because they have no other capacity for resolving their emotions or finding an outlet for their thoughts. Maybe they just couldn't deal with the chisel. Or maybe they had legitimate gripes. I can't be sure, but that's just my opinion. It reminds me directly of the whole rick ross and hindu based hegemony over kundalini yoga stuff we see on wikipedia. I just want to say a couple things... Yogi Bhajan gave us some rules by which to communicate. I've been teaching several communication classes, as well as doing kriyas and meditations for this topic, and I'm working through it... G.O.D. knows I'm trying and hopefully improving all the time... I just want to be a good student. But if you look out in the world, it's a huge problem... That's why 99% of politicans are lawyers, right - because they have to use their words properly - or wars and genocides start, yes? How many people die each year because of inflammatory words spoken over radio airwaves? I don't think you could count it. And, so for a better world and life, we all are working on this, yes? So, here are the 5 UNIVERSAL Rules of Communication: 1. You are communicating for a better tomorrow, not to spoil today. 2. Whatever you are going to say is going to live forever, and you have to live through it. (Therefore you have to understand that you have to take care so that you need not live through the mud of your own communication.) 3. One wrong word said can do much more wrong than you can even imagine or estimate. 4. Don't turn a chance word spoken during a communication into a war. 5. When you communicate, keep in mind that you will have to communicate again. (Don't make the road tough.) These are the rules. - Yogi Bhajan For your records, something to print out and post on your fridge, or whatever, carry in your pocket, I have created a PDF that you can download with one click that has these rules, plus a few choice words from Yogi Bhajan on the power of speech: http://www.fatehsinghyoga.com/words/5_rules_of_commincation.pdf Feel free to download, print, spread, share, read, memorize... [taken from his book " Harmonious Communication - From the course " Human Sexuality " Spain, 1986] Yours in Peace, Fateh Singh http://www.fatehsinghyoga.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Dear Sat Avatar, Sat Nam - What a wonderful moment for learning we're in right now. Thank you for participating. Simply put, in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " is a verbal attack, negative allegations, about anyone who is NOT present in order to know what is being circulated about him (or her), and without opportunity to offer correcting communication to these allegations. This is why there is a constitutional guarantee to hear and rebut negative allegations by facing witnesses who bring such allegations forward. In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. I confronted you on a point of communication that is CRUCIAL for having truth based dialogue in any context. It had nothing to do with whether on not your allegations are true or false. It has everything to do with the fairness and honesty of the PROCESS by which any social system can maintain a pure and neutral medium for mutual understanding. Confronting your statements is not a hostile act toward you. IT is also clear that you are reacting at this time. " Gossip " (as Yogi Bhajan taught) is the sharing and circulation in social circles (and oftentimes " enjoyment " ) of such un-processed, unproven allegations, " as if they were true. " Gossip can easily become a feeding frenzy upon lies and untruth, to the great harm for the social system in which gossip and slander occurs. Since Sat Sangat (true and beloved community) is one of the most primordial foundations of Dharma, anyone who is qualified to consider themselves a lover of Dharma actually betrays the Guru and Dharma by tolerating and NOT confronting slander and gossip. That is simply the rather unpleasant task I assumed when I wrote my brief and succinct comments to you. I don't mind being " the bad person " here. At least your reactions are being directed to someone who is present and able to respond (as I am). Agia Akal Singh is not here. So I'm happy to speak on his and everyone's behalf, that " even if " he has done a wrong thing, your method of dealing with it was inappropriate. Neither am I slandering you by lodging my objection directly to you, without secrecy, in the very context in which you spoke of him. You made this public. This would be a textbook opportunity for some other, non-interested, skilled, neutral party to facilitate and mediate this engagement between dueling allegations. I have no interest in pursuing this, one on one, without facilitation. I am, at this moment, simply clarifying and reiterating my first objection. There is no requirement to " blow kisses " before objecting in group conversation. There is, however, a requirement " to be in and of a neutral mind. " I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, other than to resolve and sustain a truthful, neutrally minded forum for our mutual explorations and investigations of insights and values within an honest and fair environment. There is a process model for allowing opposing viewpoints to be valued in finding deeper, resolving insights. This is the essence of Quaker protocol and meeting. It's a protocol that is deeply compatible with what you have said about Non-Violent Communication as taught by Marshall Rosenberg. Unless someone can assist by pointing the contrary, I believe that I am and have been well within compliance with both systems of negotiation and facilitation in speaking here as I have at this time. I am very open to qualified facilitation, as neither party to a dispute of truth and value can neutrally sustain the middle ground for having a balanced resolution. thank you for bringing such a rich situation to our shared reality. It's quite wonderful to have such an opportunity for serious exploration of " how can one go from here. " Love and Blessings, Krishna Singh Kundalini-Yoga , " sat_avtar_kaur " <myralorey wrote: > > Sat Nam, > > You are entitled to your perceptions, Krishna Singh, as I am to mine. It you, who is using the words " tone and arrogance of a witch hunt'. These are your perceptions, they have nothing to do with me. > > I have had nothing, but the greatest respect for you. Apparently, that is mis-placed, on my part. What happened to your training in NVC? > > Would it not have been better, that you asked, for proof or where I came up with the idea? > > Oh, by the way, I got a private email, from a Kundalini Yoga Teacher, who warned me about this man. So not everyone, thinks the way you do. > > You talk about fairness, but I don't think you are being fair. I did not 'slander' anyone. I stated an opinion. You think that my little email is slander? > > I know, what slander is, because, I have been slandered, by a Kundalini Yoga Teacher. My Kundalini Yoga Teacher, the second and last one, I have ever had. I loved her classes. I actually thought we were friends. My assumption. That Kundalini Yoga Teacher sent an email, to a new student, who had only two classes and was a friend of mine at that time. > > I have never been so deeply hurt, as I have been, and still am, with what this teacher said about me, based on her assumptions. > > I have worked on releasing this, since May of 2007. And, I still can't resolve it. > > This is what slander is: > > > ms lorey > > Thu, 31 May 2007 14:40:11 EDT > > > > Hi, > > > > I've been cruising the web, Google-ing. I'm not a professional > > psychologist but it appears to me that Myra is a Borderline Personality Disorder > > person (BPD). There are many sites that define the 9 symptoms of BPD. > > Wikepedia is a good place to start if you're interested. If you continue to associate with > > her I want you to be careful. Her reality is very distorted--not her fault. > > (signature removed) > > Krishna Singh, you know all about this. Because you were involved. (and another teacher as well) > > Now, if I leave this statement as it is, a lot people are going to wonder about you, too. But, I am not going to do that. I am going to clarify. Krishna Singh offered to meditate, but at that time, we could bring it off. > > And the situation lingers, she does not look me in the eye, or speak, if we attend the same workshop. I considered at the time, taking her to court, and suing but, I decided that since I knew so little about Kundalini Yoga, that I would take that route in resolving this. I had an 8 month heavy chant practice. I am still chanting. It is not with me every day, but it keeps coming up. Kirtan Kriya is quite helpful. > > So, Krishna Singh, you are worried about " Who is this KY Teacher? " But you did not counteract with positive, upbeat information on this person. Why not, if you are so worried, on principle. > > Here are the urls that was sent to me and others I found, check it out for yourself, make your own decisions. > > http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/2598.html?1180529399 > > http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/339.html?1121347574 > > http://omgili.com/jmp/jHIAmI4hxg9d1iQWAe70cRWtshCsrVe5ARhKqCYXd4gVvcMel6P4duGOP9\ KDbrZr0CmVjiUEsYXHX46LeZ_CfdwLWeJQnfF0VAYl.2tdjITDcxYEjW825uIL24h5q8WnY7cJBSPU6R\ fJxZgSUZ2Q4Rbbf09.zZOZXSKuUMmE1u3NGgwxGBP4sF3spTSrtchktN6j_Cuoem8WACnwoNCkDHHC72\ UtK4UxwVvZ_W_UtKA- > > http://www.ripoffreport.com/Seminar-Programs/Yogi-Akal-Internatio/yogi-akal-inte\ rnational-school-m2489.htm > Report: #280904 > > Sat Avtar Kaur > Myra Lorey > > ps- long reflection on this 'stuff' and some other weird experiences, I had with Kundalini Yoga Teachers, (the first 5 I ever met) has led me to feel that there is a lack in the Teachers Training. None of the 5 teachers, were able to use the word 'No' or take charge of the conversations and emails. > > One of them, sent an email, the night before, stating how much fun we were going to have, the next day, I got an email from her, stating that I was not on a high enough gracious level for her to deal with, and it would take me, 10 lifetimes to reach her level, and even then, she did not want to know me. I have no idea, what she was talking about, why she sent it - No- would have worked -- very childish. oops, is that slander, too? > > After class, one day this teacher said she could give me some kriyas that would overcome the negativity in my life. It took me about 5 questions, to find out what she was basing this remark on. It seems that in class, I said 'ouch' and 'ouch', when I pushed myself too hard. I told her that pain is neither positive nor negative. It just is. > > pps. > There is a Teacher in Seattle, that gives classes on Compassionate Communication combined with NVC. According to Nonviolent Communication founder Marshall Rosenberg, empathy is a respectful understanding of what others are experiencing. NVC offers us concrete tools to increase our skills in empathic listening which result in effective resolution of conflicts, bridging of ideological divides, and wise use of our resources on personal, national and global levels. > > " Rather than getting caught up in the story the speaker is telling, with NVC-type empathic listening, we listen for two underlying, key components: feelings and needs. Listening for feelings and needs will keep us focused, centered and open, rather than being drawn into judgment of either the speaker or the people the speaker may be judging. " > > I think all Kundalini Yoga Teachers should be required to take a class in NVC. My perception. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Greetings all,I have to make some comment about this whole slander issue. I mean, the reality is, on a spiritual path, there are teachers out there who have not really healed themselves and so sometimes will project and be quite damaging to their students. There is a difference between slandering them and between warning people about someone who is actually legitimately destructive. I have been in a situation where I encountered someone who was in a spiritual role and was quite the ego maniac. After a 'healing' session with her (she also does readings - for some reason I had a few readings done last year and normally wouldn't. I think I'm over this reading phase and am focusing on developing my own intuition), I found out she must have dumped negative energy on me or something because I felt drowsy and then rage the next day. Now I have worked with mantra long enough to know that sometimes you do get angry when things come up and then things improve, but I had a bad feeling about this person in the first place but for some reason kept going to her group (I may have been drawn to the other positive people in the group). What happened was not her helping me, it was destructive and I later verified with another reader that she was a spiritual 'vampire'. Now maybe she isn't conscious of what she is doing and maybe part of her really does want to lead a spiritual life. I am not sure, but we need to be aware of this danger. Anyways, I blogged about her but did not mention her name, although I maybe should have. I talked to some people who used to go to her group and they shared the same sentiments as I did. There was something not right about this woman. But what does one do? I don't want to spend energy warning people about her. They may have to found out on their own. But at the same time, she has a potential to cause someone great harm. Since I had a strong spiritual discipline to start with, I probably was able to shake off the destructive energy much quicker then someone who is a novice. Perhaps my karma with her is over. She ended up reading my blog and confronted me about what I wrote but she was insistent I was negative and had issues. I wrote my blog entry to help me make sense of this experience and did not mention her name and was not attacking her and sticking to the facts as I saw them. There was a complete denial on her end about what I experienced. True I had issues like everyone else, but I was trying to work though it like most people on a spiritual ideally should. This woman was not who I hoped she was. Let's get real here. On the spiritual path, there will be spiritual posers (as I described her in my blog). People who talk the talk but do not walk the walk. I think one needs to make the distinction between actually finding the truth of a situation versus gossiping. Sometimes fact finding appears as gossip but it's not and it's the intention behind it that determines whether it is gossip or fact finding. Paula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Sat Nam I have met Agia Akal and have had readings with him. He is very insightful and intelligent. I will not attack his character. I will comment on his businesses though. My wife paid $1500 for a numerology certifiication course. The course had no focus. The course kept changing. My wife completed part of it and by then it was changed so she had to do everything all over again. Then instead of the mail correspondence course, everything had to be done all over again on the internet. Then they said she had to do the course again. She never progressed as far as any level of certification. We asked for all the money back and received none. 108 calculations were promised and according to another numerologist, YB only gave 54 calculations. My wife is not the only one to whom this happened. We personally know of 3 others and those 3 others have said they know of others to whom this happened. NO one got certified and no one got their money back. " Caveat Emptor " if you want to deal with these businesses. People need to be told the truth so the same thing does not happen to them. Is business corruption different than government corruption? GuruBandhu Kundalini-Yoga , " sevaplace01 " <krishna wrote: > > Dear Sat Avatar, Sat Nam - > What a wonderful moment for learning we're in right now. Thank you for participating. > > Simply put, in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " is a verbal attack, negative allegations, about anyone who is NOT present in order to know what is being circulated about him (or her), and without opportunity to offer correcting communication to these allegations. This is why there is a constitutional guarantee to hear and rebut negative allegations by facing witnesses who bring such allegations forward. > > In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. I confronted you on a point of communication that is CRUCIAL for having truth based dialogue in any context. It had nothing to do with whether on not your allegations are true or false. It has everything to do with the fairness and honesty of the PROCESS by which any social system can maintain a pure and neutral medium for mutual understanding. > > Confronting your statements is not a hostile act toward you. IT is also clear that you are reacting at this time. > > " Gossip " (as Yogi Bhajan taught) is the sharing and circulation in social circles (and oftentimes " enjoyment " ) of such un-processed, unproven allegations, " as if they were true. " Gossip can easily become a feeding frenzy upon lies and untruth, to the great harm for the social system in which gossip and slander occurs. Since Sat Sangat (true and beloved community) is one of the most primordial foundations of Dharma, anyone who is qualified to consider themselves a lover of Dharma actually betrays the Guru and Dharma by tolerating and NOT confronting slander and gossip. That is simply the rather unpleasant task I assumed when I wrote my brief and succinct comments to you. I don't mind being " the bad person " here. At least your reactions are being directed to someone who is present and able to respond (as I am). Agia Akal Singh is not here. So I'm happy to speak on his and everyone's behalf, that " even if " he has done a wrong thing, your method of dealing with it was inappropriate. Neither am I slandering you by lodging my objection directly to you, without secrecy, in the very context in which you spoke of him. You made this public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Thank you, Krishna Singh, for this wonder teaching post, reminding us all to redouble our efforts to be neutral and conscious of all our communications. I greatly appreciated this post - this type of thing is the meat of this group for me. We are all striving to learn and grow and these posts help me to do that. I might well have reacted as Sat Avtar did, and am happy to learn. And thank you Sat Avtar, for all your posts and the work you do to provide such a wonderful resource for us all on your site. Jiwan Shakti Kaur Kundalini-Yoga , " sevaplace01 " <krishna wrote: > > Dear Sat Avatar, Sat Nam - > What a wonderful moment for learning we're in right now. Thank you for participating. > > Simply put, in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " is a verbal attack, negative allegations, about anyone who is NOT present in order to know what is being circulated about him (or her), and without opportunity to offer correcting communication to these allegations. This is why there is a constitutional guarantee to hear and rebut negative allegations by facing witnesses who bring such allegations forward. > > In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. I confronted you on a point of communication that is CRUCIAL for having truth based dialogue in any context. It had nothing to do with whether on not your allegations are true or false. It has everything to do with the fairness and honesty of the PROCESS by which any social system can maintain a pure and neutral medium for mutual understanding. > > Confronting your statements is not a hostile act toward you. IT is also clear that you are reacting at this time. > > " Gossip " (as Yogi Bhajan taught) is the sharing and circulation in social circles (and oftentimes " enjoyment " ) of such un-processed, unproven allegations, " as if they were true. " Gossip can easily become a feeding frenzy upon lies and untruth, to the great harm for the social system in which gossip and slander occurs. Since Sat Sangat (true and beloved community) is one of the most primordial foundations of Dharma, anyone who is qualified to consider themselves a lover of Dharma actually betrays the Guru and Dharma by tolerating and NOT confronting slander and gossip. That is simply the rather unpleasant task I assumed when I wrote my brief and succinct comments to you. I don't mind being " the bad person " here. At least your reactions are being directed to someone who is present and able to respond (as I am). Agia Akal Singh is not here. So I'm happy to speak on his and everyone's behalf, that " even if " he has done a wrong thing, your method of dealing with it was inappropriate. Neither am I slandering you by lodging my objection directly to you, without secrecy, in the very context in which you spoke of him. You made this public. > > This would be a textbook opportunity for some other, non-interested, skilled, neutral party to facilitate and mediate this engagement between dueling allegations. I have no interest in pursuing this, one on one, without facilitation. I am, at this moment, simply clarifying and reiterating my first objection. There is no requirement to " blow kisses " before objecting in group conversation. There is, however, a requirement " to be in and of a neutral mind. " I have no interest in the outcome of this discussion, other than to resolve and sustain a truthful, neutrally minded forum for our mutual explorations and investigations of insights and values within an honest and fair environment. > > There is a process model for allowing opposing viewpoints to be valued in finding deeper, resolving insights. This is the essence of Quaker protocol and meeting. It's a protocol that is deeply compatible with what you have said about Non-Violent Communication as taught by Marshall Rosenberg. Unless someone can assist by pointing the contrary, I believe that I am and have been well within compliance with both systems of negotiation and facilitation in speaking here as I have at this time. I am very open to qualified facilitation, as neither party to a dispute of truth and value can neutrally sustain the middle ground for having a balanced resolution. > > thank you for bringing such a rich situation to our shared reality. It's quite wonderful to have such an opportunity for serious exploration of " how can one go from here. " > > Love and Blessings, > Krishna Singh > > Kundalini-Yoga , " sat_avtar_kaur " <myralorey@> wrote: > > > > Sat Nam, > > > > You are entitled to your perceptions, Krishna Singh, as I am to mine. It you, who is using the words " tone and arrogance of a witch hunt'. These are your perceptions, they have nothing to do with me. > > > > I have had nothing, but the greatest respect for you. Apparently, that is mis-placed, on my part. What happened to your training in NVC? > > > > Would it not have been better, that you asked, for proof or where I came up with the idea? > > > > Oh, by the way, I got a private email, from a Kundalini Yoga Teacher, who warned me about this man. So not everyone, thinks the way you do. > > > > You talk about fairness, but I don't think you are being fair. I did not 'slander' anyone. I stated an opinion. You think that my little email is slander? > > > > I know, what slander is, because, I have been slandered, by a Kundalini Yoga Teacher. My Kundalini Yoga Teacher, the second and last one, I have ever had. I loved her classes. I actually thought we were friends. My assumption. That Kundalini Yoga Teacher sent an email, to a new student, who had only two classes and was a friend of mine at that time. > > > > I have never been so deeply hurt, as I have been, and still am, with what this teacher said about me, based on her assumptions. > > > > I have worked on releasing this, since May of 2007. And, I still can't resolve it. > > > > This is what slander is: > > > > > ms lorey > > > Thu, 31 May 2007 14:40:11 EDT > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've been cruising the web, Google-ing. I'm not a professional > > > psychologist but it appears to me that Myra is a Borderline Personality Disorder > > > person (BPD). There are many sites that define the 9 symptoms of BPD. > > > Wikepedia is a good place to start if you're interested. If you continue to associate with > > > her I want you to be careful. Her reality is very distorted--not her fault. > > > > (signature removed) > > > > Krishna Singh, you know all about this. Because you were involved. (and another teacher as well) > > > > Now, if I leave this statement as it is, a lot people are going to wonder about you, too. But, I am not going to do that. I am going to clarify. Krishna Singh offered to meditate, but at that time, we could bring it off. > > > > And the situation lingers, she does not look me in the eye, or speak, if we attend the same workshop. I considered at the time, taking her to court, and suing but, I decided that since I knew so little about Kundalini Yoga, that I would take that route in resolving this. I had an 8 month heavy chant practice. I am still chanting. It is not with me every day, but it keeps coming up. Kirtan Kriya is quite helpful. > > > > So, Krishna Singh, you are worried about " Who is this KY Teacher? " But you did not counteract with positive, upbeat information on this person. Why not, if you are so worried, on principle. > > > > Here are the urls that was sent to me and others I found, check it out for yourself, make your own decisions. > > > > http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/4/2598.html?1180529399 > > > > http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/339.html?1121347574 > > > > http://omgili.com/jmp/jHIAmI4hxg9d1iQWAe70cRWtshCsrVe5ARhKqCYXd4gVvcMel6P4duGOP9\ KDbrZr0CmVjiUEsYXHX46LeZ_CfdwLWeJQnfF0VAYl.2tdjITDcxYEjW825uIL24h5q8WnY7cJBSPU6R\ fJxZgSUZ2Q4Rbbf09.zZOZXSKuUMmE1u3NGgwxGBP4sF3spTSrtchktN6j_Cuoem8WACnwoNCkDHHC72\ UtK4UxwVvZ_W_UtKA- > > > > http://www.ripoffreport.com/Seminar-Programs/Yogi-Akal-Internatio/yogi-akal-inte\ rnational-school-m2489.htm > > Report: #280904 > > > > Sat Avtar Kaur > > Myra Lorey > > > > ps- long reflection on this 'stuff' and some other weird experiences, I had with Kundalini Yoga Teachers, (the first 5 I ever met) has led me to feel that there is a lack in the Teachers Training. None of the 5 teachers, were able to use the word 'No' or take charge of the conversations and emails. > > > > One of them, sent an email, the night before, stating how much fun we were going to have, the next day, I got an email from her, stating that I was not on a high enough gracious level for her to deal with, and it would take me, 10 lifetimes to reach her level, and even then, she did not want to know me. I have no idea, what she was talking about, why she sent it - No- would have worked -- very childish. oops, is that slander, too? > > > > After class, one day this teacher said she could give me some kriyas that would overcome the negativity in my life. It took me about 5 questions, to find out what she was basing this remark on. It seems that in class, I said 'ouch' and 'ouch', when I pushed myself too hard. I told her that pain is neither positive nor negative. It just is. > > > > pps. > > There is a Teacher in Seattle, that gives classes on Compassionate Communication combined with NVC. According to Nonviolent Communication founder Marshall Rosenberg, empathy is a respectful understanding of what others are experiencing. NVC offers us concrete tools to increase our skills in empathic listening which result in effective resolution of conflicts, bridging of ideological divides, and wise use of our resources on personal, national and global levels. > > > > " Rather than getting caught up in the story the speaker is telling, with NVC-type empathic listening, we listen for two underlying, key components: feelings and needs. Listening for feelings and needs will keep us focused, centered and open, rather than being drawn into judgment of either the speaker or the people the speaker may be judging. " > > > > I think all Kundalini Yoga Teachers should be required to take a class in NVC. My perception. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Sat Nam, Quote: in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " is a verbal attack, Quote: In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. These 2 statements appear to be contradictory. Verbal? We post here by email, at least I do. I have as much right, as you or anyone else, to to make a statement, to express my opinion. I am not going to recant. Blessings, Sat Avtar Kaur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sat Nam. I live in Toronto and am ordinarily very inviting and communicative. Agia Akal Singh and I first came to know each other nearly 30 years ago when he lived in Montreal. When he arrived in Toronto about 8 years ago, I encouraged him several times to become involved in our Toronto 3HO community. Finally, Agia Akal Singh told me that Yogiji had told him not to be involved with our community (that's in the larger, not the local sense). God knows what Yogiji had in mind exactly, but my suggestion is to send Agia Akal Singh-ji lots of blessings and prayers, but leave him be. Blessings abounding... Guru Fatha Singh Kundalini-Yoga , " greatyoga " <greatyoga wrote: > > Sat Nam > > I have met Agia Akal and have had readings with him. He is very insightful and intelligent. I will not attack his character. I will comment on his businesses though. My wife paid $1500 for a numerology certifiication course. The course had no focus. The course kept changing. My wife completed part of it and by then it was changed so she had to do everything all over again. Then instead of the mail correspondence course, everything had to be done all over again on the internet. Then they said she had to do the course again. She never progressed as far as any level of certification. We asked for all the money back and received none. 108 calculations were promised and according to another numerologist, YB only gave 54 calculations. My wife is not the only one to whom this happened. We personally know of 3 others and those 3 others have said they know of others to whom this happened. NO one got certified and no one got their money back. " Caveat Emptor " if you want to deal with these businesses. People need to be told the truth so the same thing does not happen to them. Is business corruption different than government corruption? > > GuruBandhu > > Kundalini-Yoga , " sevaplace01 " <krishna@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sat Avatar, Sat Nam - > > What a wonderful moment for learning we're in right now. Thank you for participating. > > > > Simply put, in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " is a verbal attack, negative allegations, about anyone who is NOT present in order to know what is being circulated about him (or her), and without opportunity to offer correcting communication to these allegations. This is why there is a constitutional guarantee to hear and rebut negative allegations by facing witnesses who bring such allegations forward. > > > > In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. I confronted you on a point of communication that is CRUCIAL for having truth based dialogue in any context. It had nothing to do with whether on not your allegations are true or false. It has everything to do with the fairness and honesty of the PROCESS by which any social system can maintain a pure and neutral medium for mutual understanding. > > > > Confronting your statements is not a hostile act toward you. IT is also clear that you are reacting at this time. > > > > " Gossip " (as Yogi Bhajan taught) is the sharing and circulation in social circles (and oftentimes " enjoyment " ) of such un-processed, unproven allegations, " as if they were true. " Gossip can easily become a feeding frenzy upon lies and untruth, to the great harm for the social system in which gossip and slander occurs. Since Sat Sangat (true and beloved community) is one of the most primordial foundations of Dharma, anyone who is qualified to consider themselves a lover of Dharma actually betrays the Guru and Dharma by tolerating and NOT confronting slander and gossip. That is simply the rather unpleasant task I assumed when I wrote my brief and succinct comments to you. I don't mind being " the bad person " here. At least your reactions are being directed to someone who is present and able to respond (as I am). Agia Akal Singh is not here. So I'm happy to speak on his and everyone's behalf, that " even if " he has done a wrong thing, your method of dealing with it was inappropriate. Neither am I slandering you by lodging my objection directly to you, without secrecy, in the very context in which you spoke of him. You made this public. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sat Nam, I feel... What is right for one isn't necessarily right for another...my truth of a person or situation is mine & unique to my particular make-up.. & what I need to experience at that time ...however seemingly ugly..I tend to believe - it is what ' I ' am meant to be experiencing /attracting.. we are exactly where we are meant to be...experiencing exactly what we do experience..comfortably or not...until we have received whatever needs to be received in order to release our deepest authentic self..to discover a much deeper place of non-attachment to external stimuli / triggers & equally our reactions to them....They are not the objective ....How we are left after every encounter we have ...is admittedly sometimes a pain in the butt...But for me...it is an opportunity to go deeper ....to deeply feel & drop more into that Sattvic state...I am learning that these feelings are what needs to be acknowledged & felt & that takes us deeper into our person / our sattvic state...The storylines, no matter how darn seductive or comforting they appear to be,are absolutely irrelevent...all things are a means to taking us within to silence / peace ...Our Authentic Self. I know it seemingly makes us feel good to go in there warning & rescuing others...but are we really that Big to think that is our role..possibly another illusion...people don't need rescuing... The only rescuing one needs is from their minds & running storylines.. We vibrate at a certain frequency...we have so many inner notes playing...maybe one day we may be in the right place the right time to have the opprtuinty to trigger one of those inner notes ...result being that we can become more aware of our patterns /programming / wounds etc. in order to release & move past it to hear the Ultimate Note...no storyline is ever going to take us there... If we aren't meant to experience that vibration there & then ...then we won't.. For me...I have been rediculously open in past... & picked up stuff all the time...emotionally being floored over & over again... For whatever reason my pranamayakosha has been full to the brim with emotions & jarring itself... However...apart from all the wonderful vibrationally uplifting tools out there...that have helped...ultimately its been the most seemingly basic of practises that has helped...simple yet powerful.....placing own hands on body & feeling & allowing the energy / prana its own expression ...and anything that is not sattvic is recognised & released & moved into a sattvic state... no storylines or controlling necessary! A wonderful teacher has taught me these preliminary exercises... & we finish with Yoni Mudra over the Lower chakras... Om Shanti & Blessings Bhadra kali Kundalini-Yoga , Paula Lucidi <plucidi wrote: > > Greetings all, > > I have to make some comment about this whole slander issue. I mean, the > reality is, on a spiritual path, there are teachers out there who have not > really healed themselves and so sometimes will project and be quite damaging > to their students. There is a difference between slandering them and between > warning people about someone who is actually legitimately destructive. > > I have been in a situation where I encountered someone who was in a > spiritual role and was quite the ego maniac. After a 'healing' session with > her (she also does readings - for some reason I had a few readings done last > year and normally wouldn't. I think I'm over this reading phase and am > focusing on developing my own intuition), I found out she must have dumped > negative energy on me or something because I felt drowsy and then rage the > next day. Now I have worked with mantra long enough to know that sometimes > you do get angry when things come up and then things improve, but I had a > bad feeling about this person in the first place but for some reason kept > going to her group (I may have been drawn to the other positive people in > the group). What happened was not her helping me, it was destructive and I > later verified with another reader that she was a spiritual 'vampire'. Now > maybe she isn't conscious of what she is doing and maybe part of her really > does want to lead a spiritual life. I am not sure, but we need to be aware > of this danger. > > Anyways, I blogged about her but did not mention her name, although I maybe > should have. I talked to some people who used to go to her group and they > shared the same sentiments as I did. There was something not right about > this woman. > > But what does one do? I don't want to spend energy warning people about her. > They may have to found out on their own. But at the same time, she has a > potential to cause someone great harm. Since I had a strong spiritual > discipline to start with, I probably was able to shake off the destructive > energy much quicker then someone who is a novice. Perhaps my karma with her > is over. She ended up reading my blog and confronted me about what I wrote > but she was insistent I was negative and had issues. I wrote my blog entry > to help me make sense of this experience and did not mention her name and > was not attacking her and sticking to the facts as I saw them. There was a > complete denial on her end about what I experienced. True I had issues like > everyone else, but I was trying to work though it like most people on a > spiritual ideally should. This woman was not who I hoped she was. > > Let's get real here. On the spiritual path, there will be spiritual posers > (as I described her in my blog). People who talk the talk but do not walk > the walk. > > I think one needs to make the distinction between actually finding the truth > of a situation versus gossiping. Sometimes fact finding appears as gossip > but it's not and it's the intention behind it that determines whether it is > gossip or fact finding. > > Paula > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 <gurufathasingh wrote: > Finally, Agia Akal Singh told me that Yogiji had told him not to be involved with our community (that's in the larger, not the local sense). The implication I take from this is that Yogi Bhajan felt this man was not fit to be part of the 3HO community. What else is one to think if he only told you 'finally' and didnt give you the reason? > ....my suggestion is to send Agia Akal Singh-ji lots of blessings and prayers, but leave him be. If this man is 'corrupt' or even just incompetent it is not right to send him prayers and leave him be. It is right to oppose him and try to stop him harming others. From reading the forum posts I have grave doubts about him. I believe there are degress of sin 1 - doing bad 2 - helping someone do bad 3 - stopping people who try to stop someone from doing bad. 3 - not intereveneing to stop someone when you have the power to do so 4 - Not supporting soneone who has the power to intervene. Prayer may not be enough in a harsh world - even though it may be the best thing to try first. People who do bad are usually convinced they are not - you may have to be cruel to them to stop them hurting others. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Sat Avtar Kaur- I have known Agia Akal to swindle people out of money through his programs. I am not surprised to hear of other negative experiences with him. Some people believe that because someone is " spiritual " , they deserve to be evaluated differently than others. But a person who does sadhana every day and is still a jerk, or a cheat, or a swindler, is the same kind of jerk, or cheat, or swindler as someone who doesn't do sadhana. There is no need to jump through psychological hoops, as many have suggested to you, just to make the point, as you did, that someone's reputation precedes them and to engage them with caution. It was a simple point you made, and people could respond by providing evidence or personal perspective on an alternative perspective of the man. Instead, you received a lot of judgement and un-asked for " teaching " from various members here. I applaud you for sticking to your belief and opinion and know that you are not alone. You are also not the first person to suffer slander specifically by Krishna Singh. In my opinion, he is not to be taken seriously. Sincerely, Michael Kundalini-Yoga , " sat_avtar_kaur " <myralorey wrote: > > Sat Nam, > > Quote: in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " > is a verbal attack, > > Quote: In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. > > > These 2 statements appear to be contradictory. > > Verbal? > > We post here by email, at least I do. > > I have as much right, as you or anyone else, to to make a statement, to express my opinion. I am not going to recant. > > Blessings, > > Sat Avtar Kaur > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Sat nam all, I just wanted to offer the following - in the time I have known him (several years), Agia Akal has been nothing but an impeccable teacher with me. Best, Brian Kundalini-Yoga , " dharam_khalsa " <dharam_khalsa wrote: > > Sat Avtar Kaur- > > I have known Agia Akal to swindle people out of money through his programs. I am not surprised to hear of other negative experiences with him. > > Some people believe that because someone is " spiritual " , they deserve to be evaluated differently than others. But a person who does sadhana every day and is still a jerk, or a cheat, or a swindler, is the same kind of jerk, or cheat, or swindler as someone who doesn't do sadhana. > > There is no need to jump through psychological hoops, as many have suggested to you, just to make the point, as you did, that someone's reputation precedes them and to engage them with caution. It was a simple point you made, and people could respond by providing evidence or personal perspective on an alternative perspective of the man. > > Instead, you received a lot of judgement and un-asked for " teaching " from various members here. I applaud you for sticking to your belief and opinion and know that you are not alone. > > You are also not the first person to suffer slander specifically by Krishna Singh. In my opinion, he is not to be taken seriously. > > Sincerely, > > Michael > > Kundalini-Yoga , " sat_avtar_kaur " <myralorey@> wrote: > > > > Sat Nam, > > > > Quote: in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " > > is a verbal attack, > > > > Quote: In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. > > > > > > These 2 statements appear to be contradictory. > > > > Verbal? > > > > We post here by email, at least I do. > > > > I have as much right, as you or anyone else, to to make a statement, to express my opinion. I am not going to recant. > > > > Blessings, > > > > Sat Avtar Kaur > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 After following your argument from over the pond for a while, a quote popped up: if you cant see god in all ... Let my heart-light be a lighthouse willem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Sat Nam Sat Avatar Your response was well thought out,true and set great guidelines for all facing simaliar situations. You know someone by their presence and their actions. You will be known by who you hang out with. Use your intuition, and yes track records do count. Blessings Gurutej Kundalini-Yoga , " Brian " <nitawabrian wrote: > > Sat nam all, > > I just wanted to offer the following - in the time I have known him (several years), Agia Akal has been nothing but an impeccable teacher with me. > > Best, > Brian > > Kundalini-Yoga , " dharam_khalsa " <dharam_khalsa@> wrote: > > > > Sat Avtar Kaur- > > > > I have known Agia Akal to swindle people out of money through his programs. I am not surprised to hear of other negative experiences with him. > > > > Some people believe that because someone is " spiritual " , they deserve to be evaluated differently than others. But a person who does sadhana every day and is still a jerk, or a cheat, or a swindler, is the same kind of jerk, or cheat, or swindler as someone who doesn't do sadhana. > > > > There is no need to jump through psychological hoops, as many have suggested to you, just to make the point, as you did, that someone's reputation precedes them and to engage them with caution. It was a simple point you made, and people could respond by providing evidence or personal perspective on an alternative perspective of the man. > > > > Instead, you received a lot of judgement and un-asked for " teaching " from various members here. I applaud you for sticking to your belief and opinion and know that you are not alone. > > > > You are also not the first person to suffer slander specifically by Krishna Singh. In my opinion, he is not to be taken seriously. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Michael > > > > Kundalini-Yoga , " sat_avtar_kaur " <myralorey@> wrote: > > > > > > Sat Nam, > > > > > > Quote: in the teaching of Kundalini Yoga as Yogi Bhajan taught, " Slander " > > > is a verbal attack, > > > > > > Quote: In my previous email I confronted you for exactly doing this. > > > > > > > > > These 2 statements appear to be contradictory. > > > > > > Verbal? > > > > > > We post here by email, at least I do. > > > > > > I have as much right, as you or anyone else, to to make a statement, to express my opinion. I am not going to recant. > > > > > > Blessings, > > > > > > Sat Avtar Kaur > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2010 Report Share Posted January 27, 2010 Dear Keith - Sat Nam. Yogiji knew lots of yogis with questionable, even destructive practices. While he would often describe these scenarios for our edification, he never mentioned the teachers by name. And he never to my knowledge tried to stop any of them from doing just exactly what they were doing in any way other than offering counsel, which was usually private and confidential. Yogiji would say there is no need to kill a bad man. Their bad habits will destroy them soon enough. It seems you are suggesting some kind of vigilante action or a public relations campaign. Yogiji never went there. He maintained his grace and neutrality. In one case I am aware of, the teacher, Yogi Amrit Desai finally sought out Yogiji for counsel. From what I have seen, Yogi Bhajan's policy has been to cultivate strength, understanding and inspiration everywhere - and to oppose none. We should be so strong, wise and inspiring that we are widely known as a good choice, or at least a good second choice for anyone looking for a bona fide yoga teacher. I myself find that I am now a second choice for one of Agia Akal Singh's students. She is in her 3rd or 4th year of a seemingly interminable teachers training course. This student is frustrated by that, but is also coming to my classes (sometimes with her husband) and seems to be deriving some inspiration from them. It is very easy to focus on another teacher's failings. That is what Yogiji never did. I would encourage you instead to focus on developing your strengths through sadhana and yourself becoming a great teacher for those who would study Kundalini Yoga. Blessings abounding... Guru Fatha Singh Kundalini-Yoga , " biftonb " <biftonb wrote: > > > > <gurufathasingh@> wrote: > > > Finally, Agia Akal Singh told me that Yogiji had told him not to be involved with our community (that's in the larger, not the local sense). > The implication I take from this is that Yogi Bhajan felt this man was not fit to be part of the 3HO community. What else is one to think if he only told you 'finally' and didnt give you > the reason? > > > ....my suggestion is to send Agia Akal Singh-ji lots of blessings and prayers, but leave him be. > If this man is 'corrupt' or even just incompetent it is not right to send him prayers and leave him be. It is right to oppose him and try to stop him harming others. > From reading the forum posts I have grave doubts about him. > > I believe there are degress of sin > 1 - doing bad > 2 - helping someone do bad > 3 - stopping people who try to stop someone from doing bad. > 3 - not intereveneing to stop someone when you have the power to do so > 4 - Not supporting soneone who has the power to intervene. > > Prayer may not be enough in a harsh world - even though it may be the best thing to try first. > People who do bad are usually convinced they are not - you may have to be cruel to them to stop them hurting others. > > Keith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2010 Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 Hello Guru Fatha, Kundalini-Yoga , " guru fatha singh " <gurufathasingh wrote: > Yogiji would say there is no need to kill a bad man. Their > bad habits will destroy them soon enough. Sounds like pretty good advice except I am sure there are some cases where it is right to use coercion to stop the bad man. > It seems you are suggesting some kind of vigilante action or > a public relations campaign. Vigilante action? certainly not. I don't know what action if any should be taken in this odd case. The teacher seems to please some people with his teaching and annoy others with his financial dealings. It sounds like the traces of people complaining about him on the internet may be enough publicity to warn people off. In a law suit ridden country like the USA people must be pretty sure of their facts to say what they have in public. Bless the internet in this case. > Yogiji never went there. He maintained his grace and neutrality. I am not Yogiji or an enlightened being or saint. I am not going to act a part of 'grace and neutrality' in a situation like this when that is not how I feel. I will learn from it. This case makes me angry as it brings up memories of a corrupt head at my daughters school and the way hardly anybody opposed him allowing him to get away with all sorts of things. This old anger is still there inside me... I am still proud I joined the few that fought him, sad I lost and pleased I transferred my daughter to a more ethically run school. > From what I have seen, Yogi Bhajan's policy has been to > cultivate strength, understanding and inspiration everywhere - > and to oppose none. He was a yoga & spiritual teacher not a policeman! We need policemen too. > It is very easy to focus on another teacher's failings. > That is what Yogiji never did. If this persons failing is to dishonestly take money off people then if someone is a position to stop him I wish they would focus on it! I however am not in such a position so there is nothing I can do about it. > I would encourage you instead to focus on developing your > strengths through sadhana and yourself becoming a great > teacher for those who would study Kundalini Yoga. That's always good advice. I have spent enough time on this business which is no business of mine! I still believe it is a 'spiritual trap' not take action when it is in your power to stop bad because it may interfere with your grace. I identify with the people who moan angrily about him in public - they are doing a service to others - maybe their anger is righteous! > Blessings abounding... And best wishes to all from me. Keith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 This talk about Yogi-ji never taking action against people and always acting with grace and kindness is absolutely ridiculous. He was as Saturn as it gets and routinely ripped people apart to their face and not to their face. He was also famous for his ornate and elaborate cursing in Punjabi, from telling someone about to get married " You got her my boy. Now she is going to take that kirpan and shove it up your a** " to telling someone else that he was birthed by his mom copulating with a goat. I also heard him tear people and teachers to shreds in English, and in classes. But most importantly, no one can accurately speak for Yogi ji, or claim to hold the mantle of knowledge on what he would or wouldn't do, or say or not say, in any situation. It's ridiculous to claim to hold that knowledge. What Yogi-ji left behind is not his psyche or personality but his teachings. And his teachings are not a dogma, but a set of practices intended to help a person achieve an honest view of reality and internal peace. Therefore, any opinions stated, to be valid, must come from an internal truth and experience, not just a recitation of what he said or did in a specific instance, and certainly not with a wild claim of knowing exactly what he would say or think in a particular situation. I am with Keith on this one. At least he is using his own experience and knowledge, as informed by his connection to the teachings, rather than claiming the mantle of Yogi-ji personality and psyche. Kundalini-Yoga , " biftonb " <biftonb wrote: > > Hello Guru Fatha, > Kundalini-Yoga , " guru fatha singh " <gurufathasingh@> wrote: > > Yogiji would say there is no need to kill a bad man. Their > > bad habits will destroy them soon enough. > Sounds like pretty good advice except I am sure there are some cases where it is right to use coercion to stop the bad man. > > > It seems you are suggesting some kind of vigilante action or > > a public relations campaign. > Vigilante action? certainly not. I don't know what action if any should be taken in this odd case. The teacher seems to please some people with his teaching and annoy others with his financial dealings. > It sounds like the traces of people complaining about him on the internet may be enough publicity to warn people off. In a law suit ridden country like the USA people must be pretty sure of their facts to say what they have in public. Bless the internet in this case. > > > Yogiji never went there. He maintained his grace and neutrality. > I am not Yogiji or an enlightened being or saint. I am not going to act a part of 'grace and neutrality' in a situation like this when that is not how I feel. I will learn from it. This case makes me angry as it brings up memories of a corrupt head at my daughters school and the way hardly anybody opposed him allowing him to get away with all sorts of things. This old anger is still there inside me... > I am still proud I joined the few that fought him, sad I lost and pleased I transferred my daughter to a more ethically run school. > > > From what I have seen, Yogi Bhajan's policy has been to > > cultivate strength, understanding and inspiration everywhere - > > and to oppose none. > He was a yoga & spiritual teacher not a policeman! We need policemen too. > > > It is very easy to focus on another teacher's failings. > > That is what Yogiji never did. > If this persons failing is to dishonestly take money off people then if someone is a position to stop him I wish they would focus on it! > I however am not in such a position so there is nothing I can do about it. > > > I would encourage you instead to focus on developing your > > strengths through sadhana and yourself becoming a great > > teacher for those who would study Kundalini Yoga. > That's always good advice. I have spent enough time on this business which is no business of mine! > > I still believe it is a 'spiritual trap' not take action when it is in your power to stop bad because it may interfere with your grace. > I identify with the people who moan angrily about him in public - they > are doing a service to others - maybe their anger is righteous! > > > Blessings abounding... > And best wishes to all from me. > > Keith. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2010 Report Share Posted January 31, 2010 Sat Nam, anyone who is still following this thread - I am not claiming any special expertise other than that I have arrived at from spending some time with Yogiji and reading and hearing a few hundred lectures. In writing his bio using extant materials with lots of gaps and missing details, I often have to ask myself, " What would Yogiji have done? " or " How would he have said that? " or " Why would he have done that? " Much of this is guesswork, of course. Some of it is informed opinion. And some of it could be plain wrong. It is a burden I carry. Granted, Yogiji could use colourful language and be abusive when that was what the situation required. What I think I am addressing - although I don't know Keith and whether he is a teacher of a student of Kundalini Yoga - is the best way (yes, " how Yogiji would have done it " ) of dealing with an errant teacher. In my experience, Yogiji peppered his teachings with stories of failed, bogus teachers and their practices - much as Guru Nanak's Bani contains a lot of verses about lost yogis. But he did not attack them by name or in their absence. And he never launched any campaign against any teacher he disagreed with - except a minor one in Canada where he had someone legally challenge Mahesh Yogi's claim to proprietary use of the term " transcendental meditation " . Rather, Yogiji sought out other teachers wherever he went. He tried to form an association with Swami Rama, Yogi Amrit Desai, Dr. Mishra, and Swami Satchidananda back in 1971. Wherever he went, we would publicly seek out common ground and unity. Then, of course, being Yogi Bhajan he would not be averse to poking, provoking and confronting his colleagues in private. Yogi vs. yogi politics are nasty. I have seen them. You probably have as well. They discredit those engaged in it. And they tarnish the good name of yoga in others' eyes. I have never seen Yogiji indulge in it. By expelling Agia Akal Singh from our organization, Yogiji delivered the toughest critique and harshest punishment he could devise. It is no small thing. For us to take this a step further - and I don't think anyone in this forum, even Keith, has any idea how they might want to escalate this situation - would in my estimation be a mistake. Agia Akal Singh has his lawsuits, his isolation, and his tarnished reputation. What more do you want to give him? When Yogiji told us: " You don't have to kill a bad man. Their bad actions will kill them soon enough. " he gave us an enlightened and very oriental teaching. This is certainly not an Americanism. Yogiji was bound by the credo of Nirbhao Nirvair - neither fear, nor exact vengeance. Trust in God. Be an activist. Be angry sometime, yes. But don't engage in foolish actions. In summation, I would admit I carry no designated mantle, but unless anyone wants to propose something new they they or we ought to be doing about or to Agia Akal Singh, I suggest we give this subject a rest. Blessings abounding... Guru Fatha Singh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Kundalini-Yoga , " dharam_khalsa " <dharam_khalsa wrote: > This talk about Yogi-ji never taking action against people... is > absolutely ridiculous.... > He was also famous for his ornate and elaborate cursing in Punjabi, > I also heard him tear people and teachers to shreds in English, > and in classes. You make Yogi Bhajan seem human after all! > What Yogi-ji left behind is not his psyche or personality > but his teachings. Thanks for your refreshing post. His psyche still has powerful influence, his teachings will live on well after that fades. Keith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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