Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Divine Selves This is a very vital question that has been asked by one of our students who has been disillusioned with his medical studies I give below his mail as well as responses from Dr R Nagarathna (Dean, Division of Yoga and Life Sciences, SVYASA, Bangalore and Chief Medical Officer, SVYASA) and myself. I welcome all of you to take part in this discussion and would be interested to hear from the medical doctors and yoga scientists on this group as well as other sadhaks on this path Ananda - I have been blessed to be part of an academic establishment that keeps its doors open to its students. It's funny, I made the decision to "leave" medicine (or this version of it) some time ago, but actually overcome the inertia of my present 3 or so weeks ago. For the past 2 weeks, I’ve been getting everything in order to complete my second year of medical school and take my leave. Now that I’ve closed these doors (in a way that I can re-open them when and should I chose to), I am at my greatest period of uncertainty as to which option to pursue. My fear is that by taking leave to discover my most realized path (simplifying my goals and intentions) I am creating a greater uncertainty as I try to assess what (or which) that path is. How do you view your role as a researcher? Do you feel like you are trying to "prove" phenomena that are already known to be "true"; do you feel like you're reducing yoga to fit current paradigms? Please do not see these questions as an attack on your research. As someone who's felt both the synergy and conflict between so-called eastern and western medicine, as someone who sees the advantages and disadvantages to "good" scientific research methods - randomization, blinding, setting controls for creating specific targeted therapies, I am just always left with the feeling that scientific research forces yoga to be too small in order to fit into its own conception of what knowledge is, its own scope that seeks greater reduction, not greater harmony or totality. How do you see "good, useable" data? I am so curious on this subject. I do believe that I can walk the path of a scientific healer and a yogi simultaneously. Again, it’s this question of how. ------------------------------- From Dr Ananda It was interesting to read your mail and I am putting your question on the groups for answers from the other Yoga scientists that are out there in the cyber space with us I am happy that you count your blessings for such an attitude (not so common in this day and age) will help you throughout your whole life Crossroads are always a place to be careful and there will be undoubtedly lots of uncertainly. It is however important to keep moving and not stay at the cross road forever! To think is good but to act is better! Yoga research is still in its infancy and has to face a lot of problems It is true that modern science tries to make yoga smaller in order to make it fit the demands of science. Most scientists are looking for one asana to cure one disease just as there is a pill for every ill! We still don’t have the facilities to research the higher aspects of yoga and most research has been on the Asana, Pranayama and to some extent on the meditative and so called meditation techniques such as TM I believe that we have to first start within the system and follow its rules and guidelines- one must learn to play by the rules of the game. Once we have mastered the game then we can go beyond the rules and make our own ones! Later on, I feel we can expand the process to include other aspects of yoga Yoga views man as a multilayered being while science looks upon him as a single layered entity We have to start someplace and the present is the place to start It is important to determine the physiological and psychological benefits of various yogic practices on their own as well as in combination in order to come upon a wholistic view in later years Indian researchers are limited by finance, time and facilities and so most of the research in India (and there has been a lot) has been in the very basic aspects of yoga CCRYN does a great job in funding yoga research but is still much disorganized as seen in most governmental bodies. They need to take more initiative in coordinating the research in different centers rather than just handing out money to different people. Yoga is a method of going inwards, within this and us is very difficult if not impossible to study using the tools of traditional scientific research The necessity of the hour is to legitimize yoga practices in the eyes of the scientific community who tend to dismiss the benefits otherwise is a disdainful manner It is also important that more scientific minded persons take up yoga and more yogis go into the study of science so that we can build a bridge between these two great aspects of our civilization. Swamiji always stimulated his students to take up a study of science in order to present the yogic teachings in a modern scientific manner and not as some mumbo jumbo techniques. I find many yoga teachers treating patients of various diseases about which they themselves have not a clue! I feel that is simple quackery and a crime against humanity. I feel that Swamiji’s vision of Scientific Yoga is the goal towards which we must work with renewed vigor and determination. I hope that more of the yoga scientists out there in the group will respond with their views on this topic that is also very close to my heart Yours in Yoga, Ananda Dear Dr. Ananda, Thanks for this fundamental query. I believe the same way as you say. One VC of Bangalore University once said that we are trying to validate the 5000 years old science by a 500 years old modern science. Well we need to do research in this framework to win the confidence of the world at large so that they can listen to what you want to say. It is fascinating to know how the modern science has been able to unravel the mysteries of the universe by such strict way of probing and not accepting anything without subjecting to very rigorous scrutiny. Otherwise we would still have been in the age of spirits, leeches, and the so-called Kakataliya nyaya would have flourished. But as we have come this far we have to go further ahead by dropping out the excess of this rigor and go to something, which is beyond science and logic. Here was the advantage of the oriental seers who had best of both and also could see what should be the direction in which research should go to see a healthy and happy society. They also seems to have known where they should not do too much of probing and move on to go beyond logic. Our aim should be to go the way that the modern science has gone, gain their acceptance and then blow our trumpet about all that we are talking about -- Namely 1validity and reproducibility of internal experiences to be accepted 2.not only look for objective gadget oriented evidence, 3.the so-called placebo effect now being considered discardable effect to be researched into etc. As you can see we in our center have at least been able to retain some part of the holistic approach of yoga by calling it IAYT right from day one instead of doing the same mistake that ayurveda physicians did when they started going into extract active ingredients and doing animal experiments. Now that this tract has been tried by this Indian scientists it becomes difficult and almost impossible to change the trend amongst researchers to go back to the holistic concept of ayurveda. Dr. Ananda we all have a bigger duty to do apart from only validating the ancient techniques by the modern technics of research. We should go into many many researchers doing internal research and relive those states of consciousness. Scientists should experience those states and then start giving a holistic look for everything that is happening. We should also be able to give a direction for the whole research that is going on in any field of science today. -- The slogan --'publish or perish' is becoming a wrong habit. Cutthroat competition amongst researchers is another malady, which is not the right thing to happen with Saraswathi. Please join hands to first publish in the way the modern scientists want. Get 20 publications of yours in renowned journals of high regard in the field of science and then people will start listening to you. I hope your student will peruse his medicine studies, go through the tough phase for 6 years, which is not a waste in one’s life span, and then start involving in this type of activities. Nagarathna Yogacharya Dr.Ananda Balayogi Bhavanani Chairman Yoganjali Natyalayam and ICYER 25,2nd Cross,Iyyanar Nagar, Pondicherry-605 013 Tel;0413 2622902 / 0413 2241561 abb,yognat2001 Website: www.icyer.com www.blogs.sify.com/balayogi16 Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 dear Dr.Ananda, I appreciate the concerns Of Dr.Nagarathina DEAN. I am so glad to see your well balanced picture of the scenerio today and you have practically addressed every question raised. I fully endorse what you had quoted about Swamijis views on this. Thank you for the mails which i find interesting, thought provoking and stimulating at times to find the answer within. Narasimhan 29.4.2004 --- " Dr.Ananda Bhavanani " <yognat2001 wrote: > Divine Selves > This is a very vital question that has been asked by > one of our students who has been disillusioned with > his medical studies > > I give below his mail as well as responses from Dr R > Nagarathna (Dean, Division of Yoga and Life > Sciences, SVYASA, Bangalore and Chief Medical > Officer, SVYASA) and myself. > > I welcome all of you to take part in this discussion > and would be interested to hear from the medical > doctors and yoga scientists on this group as well as > other sadhaks on this path > > Ananda > > - > > I have been blessed to be part of an academic > establishment that keeps its doors open to its > students. It's funny, I made the decision to " leave " > medicine (or this version of it) some time ago, but > actually overcome the inertia of my present 3 or so > weeks ago. For the past 2 weeks, I’ve been getting > everything in order to complete my second year of > medical school and take my leave. > > Now that I’ve closed these doors (in a way that I > can re-open them when and should I chose to), I am > at my greatest period of uncertainty as to which > option to pursue. My fear is that by taking leave to > discover my most realized path (simplifying my goals > and intentions) I am creating a greater uncertainty > as I try to assess what (or which) that path is. > > How do you view your role as a researcher? > > Do you feel like you are trying to " prove " phenomena > that are already known to be " true " ; do you feel > like you're reducing yoga to fit current paradigms? > > Please do not see these questions as an attack on > your research. As someone who's felt both the > synergy and conflict between so-called eastern and > western medicine, as someone who sees the advantages > and disadvantages to " good " scientific research > methods - randomization, blinding, setting controls > for creating specific targeted therapies, I am just > always left with the feeling that scientific > research forces yoga to be too small in order to fit > into its own conception of what knowledge is, its > own scope that seeks greater reduction, not greater > harmony or totality. How do you see " good, useable " > data? I am so curious on this subject. > > I do believe that I can walk the path of a > scientific healer and a yogi simultaneously. Again, > it’s this question of how. > > ------------------------------- > > From Dr Ananda > > It was interesting to read your mail and I am > putting your question on the groups for answers from > the other Yoga scientists that are out there in the > cyber space with us > > I am happy that you count your blessings for such an > attitude (not so common in this day and age) will > help you throughout your whole life > > Crossroads are always a place to be careful and > there will be undoubtedly lots of uncertainly. > > It is however important to keep moving and not stay > at the cross road forever! > > To think is good but to act is better! > > > > Yoga research is still in its infancy and has to > face a lot of problems > > It is true that modern science tries to make yoga > smaller in order to make it fit the demands of > science. Most scientists are looking for one asana > to cure one disease just as there is a pill for > every ill! > > We still don’t have the facilities to research the > higher aspects of yoga and most research has been on > the Asana, Pranayama and to some extent on the > meditative and so called meditation techniques such > as TM > > I believe that we have to first start within the > system and follow its rules and guidelines- one must > learn to play by the rules of the game. Once we have > mastered the game then we can go beyond the rules > and make our own ones! > > Later on, I feel we can expand the process to > include other aspects of yoga > > Yoga views man as a multilayered being while science > looks upon him as a single layered entity > > We have to start someplace and the present is the > place to start > > It is important to determine the physiological and > psychological benefits of various yogic practices on > their own as well as in combination in order to come > upon a wholistic view in later years > > Indian researchers are limited by finance, time and > facilities and so most of the research in India (and > there has been a lot) has been in the very basic > aspects of yoga > > CCRYN does a great job in funding yoga research but > is still much disorganized as seen in most > governmental bodies. They need to take more > initiative in coordinating the research in different > centers rather than just handing out money to > different people. > > Yoga is a method of going inwards, within this and > us is very difficult if not impossible to study > using the tools of traditional scientific research > > The necessity of the hour is to legitimize yoga > practices in the eyes of the scientific community > who tend to dismiss the benefits otherwise is a > disdainful manner > > It is also important that more scientific minded > persons take up yoga and more yogis go into the > study of science so that we can build a bridge > between these two great aspects of our civilization. > > Swamiji always stimulated his students to take up a > study of science in order to present the yogic > teachings in a modern scientific manner and not as > some mumbo jumbo techniques. I find many yoga > teachers treating patients of various diseases about > which they themselves have not a clue! I feel that > is simple quackery and a crime against humanity. > > I feel that Swamiji’s vision of Scientific Yoga is > the goal towards which we must work with renewed > vigor and determination. > > I hope that more of the yoga scientists out there in > the group will respond with their views on this > topic that is also very close to my heart > > Yours in Yoga, > > Ananda > > > > > > Dear Dr. Ananda, > > Thanks for this fundamental query. > > I believe the same way as you say. One VC of > Bangalore University once said that we are trying to > validate the 5000 years old science by a 500 years > old modern science. Well we need to do research in > this framework to win the confidence of the world at > large so that they can listen to what you want to > say. > > It is fascinating to know how the modern science has > been able to unravel the mysteries of the universe > by such strict way of probing and not accepting > anything without subjecting to very rigorous > scrutiny. Otherwise we would still have been in the > age of spirits, leeches, and the so-called > Kakataliya nyaya would have flourished. But as we > have come this far we have to go further ahead by > dropping out the excess of this rigor and go to > something, which is beyond science and logic. Here > was the advantage of the oriental seers who had best > of both and also could see what should be the > direction in which research should go to see a > healthy and happy society. They also seems to have > known where they should not do too much of probing > and move on to go beyond logic. > > Our aim should be to go the way that the modern > science has gone, gain their acceptance and then > blow our trumpet about all that we are talking about > > === message truncated === ===== ______________________ India Matrimony: Find your partner online. http://.shaadi.com/india-matrimony/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 dear sir thanks for the kind comments as i appreciate your opinion a lot to the rest of the group we have a new e mail id that can be used in publicity materials etc amma and ananda for now they still get redirected to my yog2001 id but according to Hemaa it sounds better in pub materials than the one! Hemaa are you listening? ananda narasimhan raghavan <rnpath wrote: dear Dr.Ananda, I appreciate the concerns Of Dr.Nagarathina DEAN.I am so glad to see your well balanced picture of thescenerio today and you have practically addressedevery question raised.I fully endorse what you had quoted about Swamijisviews on this.Thank you for the mails which i find interesting,thought provoking and stimulating at times to find theanswer within. Narasimhan 29.4.2004--- "Dr.Ananda Bhavanani" <yognat2001wrote: > Divine Selves > This is a very vital question that has been asked by> one of our students who has been disillusioned with> his medical studies> > I give below his mail as well as responses from Dr R> Nagarathna (Dean, Division of Yoga and Life> Sciences, SVYASA, Bangalore and Chief Medical> Officer, SVYASA) and myself.> > I welcome all of you to take part in this discussion> and would be interested to hear from the medical> doctors and yoga scientists on this group as well as> other sadhaks on this path> > Ananda> > -> > I have been blessed to be part of an academic> establishment that keeps its doors open to its> students. It's funny, I made the decision to "leave"> medicine (or this version of it) some time ago, but> actually overcome the inertia of my present 3 or so> weeks ago. For the past 2 weeks, I’ve been getting> everything in order to complete my second year of> medical school and take my leave.> > Now that I’ve closed these doors (in a way that I> can re-open them when and should I chose to), I am> at my greatest period of uncertainty as to which> option to pursue. My fear is that by taking leave to> discover my most realized path (simplifying my goals> and intentions) I am creating a greater uncertainty> as I try to assess what (or which) that path is. > > How do you view your role as a researcher?> > Do you feel like you are trying to "prove" phenomena> that are already known to be "true"; do you feel> like you're reducing yoga to fit current paradigms?> > Please do not see these questions as an attack on> your research. As someone who's felt both the> synergy and conflict between so-called eastern and> western medicine, as someone who sees the advantages> and disadvantages to "good" scientific research> methods - randomization, blinding, setting controls> for creating specific targeted therapies, I am just> always left with the feeling that scientific> research forces yoga to be too small in order to fit> into its own conception of what knowledge is, its> own scope that seeks greater reduction, not greater> harmony or totality. How do you see "good, useable"> data? I am so curious on this subject.> > I do believe that I can walk the path of a> scientific healer and a yogi simultaneously. Again,> it’s this question of how.> > -------------------------------> > From Dr Ananda> > It was interesting to read your mail and I am> putting your question on the groups for answers from> the other Yoga scientists that are out there in the> cyber space with us> > I am happy that you count your blessings for such an> attitude (not so common in this day and age) will> help you throughout your whole life> > Crossroads are always a place to be careful and> there will be undoubtedly lots of uncertainly. > > It is however important to keep moving and not stay> at the cross road forever! > > To think is good but to act is better!> > > > Yoga research is still in its infancy and has to> face a lot of problems> > It is true that modern science tries to make yoga> smaller in order to make it fit the demands of> science. Most scientists are looking for one asana> to cure one disease just as there is a pill for> every ill!> > We still don’t have the facilities to research the> higher aspects of yoga and most research has been on> the Asana, Pranayama and to some extent on the> meditative and so called meditation techniques such> as TM> > I believe that we have to first start within the> system and follow its rules and guidelines- one must> learn to play by the rules of the game. Once we have> mastered the game then we can go beyond the rules> and make our own ones!> > Later on, I feel we can expand the process to> include other aspects of yoga> > Yoga views man as a multilayered being while science> looks upon him as a single layered entity> > We have to start someplace and the present is the> place to start> > It is important to determine the physiological and> psychological benefits of various yogic practices on> their own as well as in combination in order to come> upon a wholistic view in later years> > Indian researchers are limited by finance, time and> facilities and so most of the research in India (and> there has been a lot) has been in the very basic> aspects of yoga> > CCRYN does a great job in funding yoga research but> is still much disorganized as seen in most> governmental bodies. They need to take more> initiative in coordinating the research in different> centers rather than just handing out money to> different people.> > Yoga is a method of going inwards, within this and> us is very difficult if not impossible to study> using the tools of traditional scientific research> > The necessity of the hour is to legitimize yoga> practices in the eyes of the scientific community> who tend to dismiss the benefits otherwise is a> disdainful manner> > It is also important that more scientific minded> persons take up yoga and more yogis go into the> study of science so that we can build a bridge> between these two great aspects of our civilization.> > Swamiji always stimulated his students to take up a> study of science in order to present the yogic> teachings in a modern scientific manner and not as> some mumbo jumbo techniques. I find many yoga> teachers treating patients of various diseases about> which they themselves have not a clue! I feel that> is simple quackery and a crime against humanity.> > I feel that Swamiji’s vision of Scientific Yoga is> the goal towards which we must work with renewed> vigor and determination.> > I hope that more of the yoga scientists out there in> the group will respond with their views on this> topic that is also very close to my heart> > Yours in Yoga,> > Ananda> > > > > > Dear Dr. Ananda,> > Thanks for this fundamental query.> > I believe the same way as you say. One VC of> Bangalore University once said that we are trying to> validate the 5000 years old science by a 500 years> old modern science. Well we need to do research in> this framework to win the confidence of the world at> large so that they can listen to what you want to> say.> > It is fascinating to know how the modern science has> been able to unravel the mysteries of the universe> by such strict way of probing and not accepting> anything without subjecting to very rigorous> scrutiny. Otherwise we would still have been in the> age of spirits, leeches, and the so-called> Kakataliya nyaya would have flourished. But as we> have come this far we have to go further ahead by> dropping out the excess of this rigor and go to> something, which is beyond science and logic. Here> was the advantage of the oriental seers who had best> of both and also could see what should be the> direction in which research should go to see a> healthy and happy society. They also seems to have> known where they should not do too much of probing> and move on to go beyond logic.> > Our aim should be to go the way that the modern> science has gone, gain their acceptance and then> blow our trumpet about all that we are talking about> > === message truncated === =====______________________ India Matrimony: Find your partner online. http://.shaadi.com/india-matrimony/ Yogacharya Dr.Ananda Balayogi Bhavanani Chairman Yoganjali Natyalayam and ICYER 25,2nd Cross,Iyyanar Nagar, Pondicherry-605 013 Tel;0413 2622902 / 0413 2241561 abb,yognat2001 Website: www.icyer.com www.blogs.sify.com/balayogi16 Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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