Guest guest Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 Hello !!! Here some thoughts from a book I am just reading on internal arts : Allen Pittman : " (...) art is consciousness. In other words, it's how you are. It's a game of perception. You have to understand what you are doing - that's what makes it art. It doesn't matter what form it is. (...) What matters is how well you understand what it's for and how much you train it properly. " Paul Gale : " It's the dedication, the perseverance, the commitment to something that really teaches you. No matter what it is that you're committed to in your life, work, or an endeavour, or a relationship, or a cause, it's that lifetime commitment that teaches you all the lessons. It isn't even so much accomplishing it. It's that path of dedication, that path of having virtuous commitment to something. People who live their lives that way, that's what they have in common. Not so much that they are dedicated to the same thing, but they share an understanding of dedication. Their mutual respect is not so much that they're aspiring to the same thing, but that they respect each other's commitment, they respect each other's authenticity to what they are doing " " You have to have some common sense about what you are training in (...) There's nothing wrong with shopping around, but you should have some idea of what you're shopping for. You should have some idea of what you want from training, why you're coming through the door. That's every individual's responsibility. " " Once you have been through the system you can do whatever you want with it. In any training, everybody has to get to the point where they sit down and figure out for themselves what they're doing, and why they're doing it that way. Sooner or later, no matter what they're training in, the student has to sit down and break things down for him or herself. You reach a point where you have to take it as far as you can on your own. There are things that cannot be taught, they can only be experienced. The teacher's responsibility is to put somebody on a path where they have a chance to experience it. You know that path will take them somewhere that's real, somewhere that's useful, that's productive, that's relative to their life, that they can use every day. Most people are on a path with a dead end. (...) I know that there'll always be more to learn. I never have to worry about 'I got it' - I ain't got it ! I just train, keep trying to acquire it, just keep adding to it. " William Lewis : " The science of body mechanics is a beautiful thing. It can be very exciting : no matter how much progress you make, you never quite reach the mountaintop. If you reach the mountaintop, there's always another mountain. In looking at life as a child does, you are able to get more out of the arts. If you think you know it all, you can't get much further than where you're at now. I choose to stay like a child, to have an open mind experiencing what my art and other arts have to offer. " Luo De Xiu : " What supports your form, what supports your movements, what supports your fighting skill ? What part supports the rest ? You can learn every kind of martial art, but basics are always the most important. " " For me, there is just one program; the same system can become a lot of things. Internal martial artists prefer to say that we have two hundred different things, but one common key. If you have two hundred different martial art techniques, you have no time to practice them all. You need to use one form for practice and include everything in it - mind, structure, movement and qi (...) A lot of times, people talk about the surface, like admiring one's clothing. (...) Don't focus on the clothes; look inside, you will find that it is very clear. The initial understanding is always difficult to find. However once you understand, it becomes so clear. " Zha Da Yuan : " Wu Shu is the art of not fighting, not an art of fighting. The character 'Wu Shu' in Chinese is made up of two words, 'stop' and 'fighting', therefore it means 'stop warfare method'. People in the west think that Wu Shu is only for fighting, but that's not the true purpose of martial arts. All different aspects of Chinese life are included in the study of Wu Shu. When you are studying Chinese martial arts you are supposed to be studying five different things at once : philosophy, culture, medicine, physiology and fighting techniques. " It seems to me that all of us are " existential question marks " ... and our lives are the answer. Starting to understand our question may help to provide the key that permits to unlock our encounters with various arts, or more generlally with our life experiences. I guess it is useful to start sticking to something at some point to get some depth which gives us a deeper understanding of the question we bear. Once this insight is there, it is still beneficial to deepen a path that others have explored, but it then also becomes easier - and necessary - to find the complements that we individually need. We should not loose sight of the context we are in. My answer is probably very " modern " and " Western " . On the one hand, we live in a context which provides more choices : I can decide to practice Yoga, Chinese martial arts, Japanese dance etc. So we also have to deal more explicitely with the question of how to deal with these choices. On the other hand, these " choices " are " reduced choices " . Yoga is not only some asanas or pranayamas. It is a way of life wich is itself linked to a specific culture. And the same can be said of many arts. An Indian learning Bharata Natyam (at least if he has not been completely brainwashed) knows about the stories that are told in the dance, the characters, the cultural background etc. So a Bharata Natyam teacher would not have to teach that. But what happens if you give the same lesson to people who have no idea about Indian culture ?? Will you teach all of this ?? You can't probably really do it ... or you would look like giving " dance classes " , " religion classes " , " mythology classes " , " language classes " etc. .... not what your students came for ... as they wanted " dance " ... Many contemporary arts are just parts of wholes, as the last quotation illustrates. First you have a whole world view. Then you take Yoga out from it for example. Then you take Hatha Yoga out of it. Then you take Asanas out of it. Yoga becomes Asana competitions. Where has the rest vanished ?? And is the rest a different thing than " Yoga " ... or is it not rather that we have to make the effort to " reunite " things together ?? ... Plenty of good energies to all of you !!! Christoph --- Oliver Thorne <ollyboy007 a écrit : > > Hello to all, > > I am sending out this mail, to encourage some > discussion on the subject of > studying more than one Art or discipline and the > affect this has on our > overall development. This mail is addressed to > different individuals and > groups and unfortunately we wont all recieve the > responses but i will > forward whatever i can that to all concerned, that > is of insight into this > subject. Thanks for your attention. > > Something I hear on a regular basis regarding the > study, specifically of > ancient Arts but also in modern ones too, is that of > trying to study too > many at once, or the distraction of studying a > multitude of various > disciplines. Wether it be Martial Arts or healing > arts, meditation or > painting, is one a distraction from the other, or > are they complimentary? > > Obviously when you lead a busy life ie. Work and > family commitments. which > are not exempt from Arts themselves, then time is > limited. But say that you > have all the time available to devote yourself to > your arts of choice, do > they distract you from one another? Or do they come > together and be mutually > beneficial? Then there is always the possibility > that only one Art distracts > you or engross' you so that you are sucked into it > and then you miss the joy > of life itself? > > The phrases often coined are a jack of all trades, a > master of none. Or > Digging many wells and never digging deep enough. > But what if you see the > various arts as a multitude of different tools > allowing you to dig deeper > into the same well? An exploration of ourselves > through various means? > > Then there is always the question of studying with > different > teachers/schools within each art. This again adds > another dimension to the > questions i am posing. > > I hope that with this discussion i too am not > distracting you from your > respective inquiries and studies,but any openess and > insights into the > subject will be greatly shared between us. > > Thank you kindly for your time and patience, i > anticipate your repsonses! > Love Olly > > _______________ > Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. > https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ > > _________________________ Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Questions/Réponses http://fr.answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Thank you for your forwarded work and for passing it on to all concerned. It is very interesting to hear the subtle differences and insights of people who are as said,dedicated to their arts. Thanks again Love Olly >Christoph Eberhard <christoph_natyam > > , alistair001, >johndenton46, mavarin, >plukvdpettenflat, mikemcd78, >jeanluc.monne, tao_123, >christineolivares, madoka, itta, >yogalates, aikidiscuss , sytze-enters, >PRContact, ezra, sonntag, >mjl, david, paritosk1, AIKIDOAMER, > aurobindo >RE : General discussion >Tue, 1 May 2007 21:20:08 +0200 (CEST) > >Hello !!! > >Here some thoughts from a book I am just reading on >internal arts : > >Allen Pittman : > > " (...) art is consciousness. In other words, it's how >you are. It's a game of perception. You have to >understand what you are doing - that's what makes it >art. It doesn't matter what form it is. (...) What >matters is how well you understand what it's for and >how much you train it properly. " > > >Paul Gale : > > " It's the dedication, the perseverance, the commitment >to something that really teaches you. No matter what >it is that you're committed to in your life, work, or >an endeavour, or a relationship, or a cause, it's that >lifetime commitment that teaches you all the lessons. >It isn't even so much accomplishing it. It's that path >of dedication, that path of having virtuous commitment >to something. People who live their lives that way, >that's what they have in common. Not so much that they >are dedicated to the same thing, but they share an >understanding of dedication. Their mutual respect is >not so much that they're aspiring to the same thing, >but that they respect each other's commitment, they >respect each other's authenticity to what they are >doing " > > " You have to have some common sense about what you are >training in (...) There's nothing wrong with shopping >around, but you should have some idea of what you're >shopping for. You should have some idea of what you >want from training, why you're coming through the >door. That's every individual's responsibility. " > > " Once you have been through the system you can do >whatever you want with it. In any training, everybody >has to get to the point where they sit down and figure >out for themselves what they're doing, and why they're >doing it that way. Sooner or later, no matter what >they're training in, the student has to sit down and >break things down for him or herself. You reach a >point where you have to take it as far as you can on >your own. There are things that cannot be taught, they >can only be experienced. The teacher's responsibility >is to put somebody on a path where they have a chance >to experience it. You know that path will take them >somewhere that's real, somewhere that's useful, that's >productive, that's relative to their life, that they >can use every day. Most people are on a path with a >dead end. (...) I know that there'll always be more to >learn. I never have to worry about 'I got it' - I >ain't got it ! I just train, keep trying to acquire >it, just keep adding to it. " > >William Lewis : > > " The science of body mechanics is a beautiful thing. >It can be very exciting : no matter how much progress >you make, you never quite reach the mountaintop. If >you reach the mountaintop, there's always another >mountain. In looking at life as a child does, you are >able to get more out of the arts. If you think you >know it all, you can't get much further than where >you're at now. I choose to stay like a child, to have >an open mind experiencing what my art and other arts >have to offer. " > >Luo De Xiu : > > " What supports your form, what supports your >movements, what supports your fighting skill ? What >part supports the rest ? You can learn every kind of >martial art, but basics are always the most >important. " > > " For me, there is just one program; the same system >can become a lot of things. Internal martial artists >prefer to say that we have two hundred different >things, but one common key. If you have two hundred >different martial art techniques, you have no time to >practice them all. You need to use one form for >practice and include everything in it - mind, >structure, movement and qi (...) A lot of times, >people talk about the surface, like admiring one's >clothing. (...) Don't focus on the clothes; look >inside, you will find that it is very clear. The >initial understanding is always difficult to find. >However once you understand, it becomes so clear. " > >Zha Da Yuan : > > " Wu Shu is the art of not fighting, not an art of >fighting. The character 'Wu Shu' in Chinese is made up >of two words, 'stop' and 'fighting', therefore it >means 'stop warfare method'. People in the west think >that Wu Shu is only for fighting, but that's not the >true purpose of martial arts. All different aspects of >Chinese life are included in the study of Wu Shu. When >you are studying Chinese martial arts you are supposed >to be studying five different things at once : >philosophy, culture, medicine, physiology and fighting >techniques. " > >It seems to me that all of us are " existential >question marks " ... and our lives are the answer. >Starting to understand our question may help to >provide the key that permits to unlock our encounters >with various arts, or more generlally with our life >experiences. I guess it is useful to start sticking to >something at some point to get some depth which gives >us a deeper understanding of the question we bear. >Once this insight is there, it is still beneficial to >deepen a path that others have explored, but it then >also becomes easier - and necessary - to find the >complements that we individually need. > >We should not loose sight of the context we are in. My >answer is probably very " modern " and " Western " . On the >one hand, we live in a context which provides more >choices : I can decide to practice Yoga, Chinese >martial arts, Japanese dance etc. So we also have to >deal more explicitely with the question of how to deal >with these choices. > >On the other hand, these " choices " are " reduced >choices " . Yoga is not only some asanas or pranayamas. >It is a way of life wich is itself linked to a >specific culture. And the same can be said of many >arts. An Indian learning Bharata Natyam (at least if >he has not been completely brainwashed) knows about >the stories that are told in the dance, the >characters, the cultural background etc. So a Bharata >Natyam teacher would not have to teach that. But what >happens if you give the same lesson to people who have >no idea about Indian culture ?? Will you teach all of >this ?? You can't probably really do it ... or you >would look like giving " dance classes " , " religion >classes " , " mythology classes " , " language classes " etc. >... not what your students came for ... as they wanted > " dance " ... > >Many contemporary arts are just parts of wholes, as >the last quotation illustrates. First you have a whole >world view. Then you take Yoga out from it for >example. Then you take Hatha Yoga out of it. Then you >take Asanas out of it. Yoga becomes Asana >competitions. Where has the rest vanished ?? And is >the rest a different thing than " Yoga " ... or is it not >rather that we have to make the effort to " reunite " >things together ?? ... > >Plenty of good energies to all of you !!! > > >Christoph > > > >--- Oliver Thorne <ollyboy007 a écrit : > > > > > Hello to all, > > > > I am sending out this mail, to encourage some > > discussion on the subject of > > studying more than one Art or discipline and the > > affect this has on our > > overall development. This mail is addressed to > > different individuals and > > groups and unfortunately we wont all recieve the > > responses but i will > > forward whatever i can that to all concerned, that > > is of insight into this > > subject. Thanks for your attention. > > > > Something I hear on a regular basis regarding the > > study, specifically of > > ancient Arts but also in modern ones too, is that of > > trying to study too > > many at once, or the distraction of studying a > > multitude of various > > disciplines. Wether it be Martial Arts or healing > > arts, meditation or > > painting, is one a distraction from the other, or > > are they complimentary? > > > > Obviously when you lead a busy life ie. Work and > > family commitments. which > > are not exempt from Arts themselves, then time is > > limited. But say that you > > have all the time available to devote yourself to > > your arts of choice, do > > they distract you from one another? Or do they come > > together and be mutually > > beneficial? Then there is always the possibility > > that only one Art distracts > > you or engross' you so that you are sucked into it > > and then you miss the joy > > of life itself? > > > > The phrases often coined are a jack of all trades, a > > master of none. Or > > Digging many wells and never digging deep enough. > > But what if you see the > > various arts as a multitude of different tools > > allowing you to dig deeper > > into the same well? An exploration of ourselves > > through various means? > > > > Then there is always the question of studying with > > different > > teachers/schools within each art. This again adds > > another dimension to the > > questions i am posing. > > > > I hope that with this discussion i too am not > > distracting you from your > > respective inquiries and studies,but any openess and > > insights into the > > subject will be greatly shared between us. > > > > Thank you kindly for your time and patience, i > > anticipate your repsonses! > > Love Olly > > > > >_______________ > > Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile. > > https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/ > > > > > > > > >_________________________ >Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions >! >Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes >sur Questions/Réponses >http://fr.answers. _______________ Get Hotmail, News, Sport and Entertainment from MSN on your mobile. http://www.msn.txt4content.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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