So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

[Guest guest]

So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

Posted by: " w_cottrell " w_cottrell w_cottrell

Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:13 pm (PDT)

 

 

So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

 

In which case, why do so few teachers offer it?

 

It's all very well for dynamic styles to claim they are a 'moving meditation'.

Odd, however: after five years of Buddhist practice, none of the meditations I

have done have involved listening to someone talk for ninety minutes. Indeed, it

kind of defeats the object.

 

Isn't it about time that Western-oriented styles admit that they are asana, not

yoga? The odd bit of chanting, or meditation at the end of the class hardly

justifies a place on the 'EIGHT limbed path'

 

The Economist's recently did a biography of Pattabi Jois (yeah!). The summary

paragraph posed the question: why did he not practice? The answer: because he'd

gone BEYOND asana. Into meditation, duh.

 

In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

--------------------------

 

Hello W Cottrell

 

your tone is very negative. and wow, you're misinformed in many things. asana is

one of the eight limbs of yoga. it helps to be able to meditate, at another time

after asana practice. however, there are many people who achieve a state of

peacefulness and a cleanliness of life with daily practice of asana. if you are

paying attention to the dristhe and to the breath, asana practice is indeed a

moving meditation.

 

you don't explain which of the branches of Buddhism you practice. i practiced 4

years of Zen, which is seated meditation. but it also includes a lot of

prostrations and chanting in services. now i'm exposed to Mahayanan Buddhism,

which involved continuous, non stop chanting, no moment of peaceful quiet

meditation. does that mean that Mahayanan does not lead to the same place as any

of the other several branches of Buddhism? i doubt it.

 

Pattabi Jois stopped practicing later in his life because his son committed

suicide. being a Brahmin, he made a vow to stop practicing. he didn't stop

because he was going into meditation.

 

many senior teachers offer the meditative form of pranayama in workshops. in the

system of ashtanga, if a teacher has formal authorization from the Shri Patthabi

Jois Institute to teach, only certified level teachers are allowed to teach the

whole system, asana at all levels and pranayama. authorized teachers typically

concentrate on asana teaching. that does not mean that they would not offer a

meditation get-together once in a while.

 

you have to think about how people get into yoga in the West. they typically are

exposed to asana, whether in gyms or studios. when they become more interested

and dig deeper, they discover pranayama, or find sources for meditation, if they

are so inclined. there is also the function of the business part of yoga.

studios can offer an ocassional meditation class, but because it could be

perceived as religion, they may limit the amount of classes.

 

hope that helps.

Arturo

[Guest guest]

i would like to add to what i wrote the following. within the yoga tradition

of ashtanga, the meditation form is called pranayama, which does not

resemble zen meditation. it involves active breathing exercises. in this

group where you posted your question there are practitioners of traditional

and of non traditional ashtanga. in years past, P.J. used to teach

pranayama; then that practice fell off. whether it was because there

where more students coming to India to study and limited time to

teach pranayama, i don't know. his son Manju teaches pranayama in

workshops.

 

if you look at your question from a traditional viewpoint, it could be

that pranayama is not taught because in the traditional system, where

the teachers obtain authorization from the institute in India, only

teachers who reach certified level are allowed to teach the whole

system. pranayama is one of the last and more advanced portions

of the system. there are few number of certified teachers in the

world. authorized teachers, the next level of authorization, are

authorized, if you are going to get to the technical nitty gritty,

to teach primary series of asanas. most teach intermediate series

of asanas as well, but technically, the focus is on primary. so that

" authorization " does not extend to teaching pranayama.

 

you'll find that many teachers do have a personal meditation practice,

whether they do it in pranayama form, or whether they seek one

of the Buddhist forms of meditation. my teachers in California all

had various personal practices of meditation.

 

if you look at your question from a non-traditional viewpoint of

teachers who teach ashtanga but don't seek the authorization from

India, i don't know too much in that area. i imagine that the yoga

alliance requires them certain level of training credits. the focus

there would probably be asana, not meditation. the yoga alliance

may be looking at meditation from a business perspective and

meditation has a religious connotation, hence it might be better

offered somewhere else. however, you will find many non-traditional

ashtanga teachers and yoga teachers of all types who themselves

have meditation practices.

 

Cheers,

Arturo

>

>So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

>Posted by: " w_cottrell " w_cottrell w_cottrell

>Tue Jul 7, 2009 12:13 pm (PDT)

>

>

>So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

>

<snip>

>

>In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

>--------------------------

>

>Hello W Cottrell

>

>your tone is very negative. and wow, you're misinformed in many things. asana

is one of the eight limbs of yoga. it helps to be able to meditate, at another

time after asana practice. however, there are many people who achieve a state of

peacefulness and a cleanliness of life with daily practice of asana. if you are

paying attention to the dristhe and to the breath, asana practice is indeed a

moving meditation.

>

>you don't explain which of the branches of Buddhism you practice. i practiced 4

years of Zen, which is seated meditation. but it also includes a lot of

prostrations and chanting in services. now i'm exposed to Mahayanan Buddhism,

which involved continuous, non stop chanting, no moment of peaceful quiet

meditation. does that mean that Mahayanan does not lead to the same place as any

of the other several branches of Buddhism? i doubt it.

>

>Pattabi Jois stopped practicing later in his life because his son committed

suicide. being a Brahmin, he made a vow to stop practicing. he didn't stop

because he was going into meditation.

>

>many senior teachers offer the meditative form of pranayama in workshops. in

the system of ashtanga, if a teacher has formal authorization from the Shri

Patthabi Jois Institute to teach, only certified level teachers are allowed to

teach the whole system, asana at all levels and pranayama. authorized teachers

typically concentrate on asana teaching. that does not mean that they would not

offer a meditation get-together once in a while.

>

>you have to think about how people get into yoga in the West. they typically

are exposed to asana, whether in gyms or studios. when they become more

interested and dig deeper, they discover pranayama, or find sources for

meditation, if they are so inclined. there is also the function of the business

part of yoga. studios can offer an ocassional meditation class, but because it

could be perceived as religion, they may limit the amount of classes.

>

>hope that helps.

>Arturo

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Its true that many people start yoga for physical benefits, but not always, and

even many people who were not spiritual at all become after a while if they

practice regularly.

My most desire was health and physical well-being when I started.

I would never have imagined that one day I would become interested in

meditation, pranayama, sanskrit, yoga philosophy, but its the case now.

 

Some people don't need asanas as a foundation for meditation (its the case for

most Buddhist monks), but as my philosophy teacher says, in the West we need

asanas to prepare for meditation, while in India, many people are already ready

for meditation.

However, I met few Westerners who were able to meditate without having any yoga

before.

 

--- On Wed, 8/7/09, JiNN <jinnproduction wrote:

 

 

JiNN <jinnproduction

Re: ashtanga yoga So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

ashtangayoga

Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 3:31 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello,

 

Yes, I have also read in a yoga philosophy book, that in the original

yoga, the asanas we there to

prepare your body (back/legs/etc) to sit in meditation posture.

I believe a lot of people in the west do yoga (or I should just say

asanas) for the

health/slim body benefits instead of spiritual benefits. There is a major

push

for " healthy " living these days in the western culture. One example is the

grocery store. Pretty much every single food has some sort of label on it,

with " 20% less fat " , " 15% more fiber " , etc etc. (Too bad they wont tell you

its

genetically modified but thats a different story).

Im curious to see what do people think about this also.

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In Mysore, even the 90mn led class we have twice a week is yoga, the teacher

just counts but he doesn't talk to you (except the casual joke).

But still I prefer the self-practice and having my own rythmn

 

 

--- On Tue, 7/7/09, Tom Hunter <thunter01 wrote:

 

 

Tom Hunter <thunter01

Re: ashtanga yoga So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

ashtangayoga

Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 8:04 PM

 

 

agree with your comments re 90 minutes of listening to someone.

One of the reasons I view led classes as practicing asana, not practicing

yoga.

 

Mysore style -- the way ashtanga was traditionally taught was not led.

Basically 90 minutes of listening to your breathing (sound familiar) with

occasional adjustments.

[Guest guest]

Well its 90 minutes of listing to the COUNT, then this COUNT is counted while

you practice Mysore Style, another tool for reaching dharana, on top of Breath,

Bandha & Dristi...

 

--- On Tue, 7/7/09, Tom Hunter <thunter01 wrote:

 

 

Tom Hunter <thunter01

Re: ashtanga yoga So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

ashtangayoga

Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 9:04 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with your comments re 90 minutes of listening to someone.

One of the reasons I view led classes as practicing asana, not practicing

yoga.

 

Mysore style -- the way ashtanga was traditionally taught was not led.

Basically 90 minutes of listening to your breathing (sound familiar) with

occasional adjustments.

 

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 4:26 PM, w_cottrell <w_cottrell > wrote:

 

>

>

> So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

>

> In which case, why do so few teachers offer it?

>

> It's all very well for dynamic styles to claim they are a 'moving

> meditation'. Odd, however: after five years of Buddhist practice, none of

> the meditations I have done have involved listening to someone talk for

> ninety minutes. Indeed, it kind of defeats the object.

>

> Isn't it about time that Western-oriented styles admit that they are asana,

> not yoga? The odd bit of chanting, or meditation at the end of the class

> hardly justifies a place on the 'EIGHT limbed path'

>

> The Economist's recently did a biography of Pattabi Jois (yeah!). The

> summary paragraph posed the question: why did he not practice? The answer:

> because he'd gone BEYOND asana. Into meditation, duh.

>

> In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Actually, pranayama is available at Tim Miller's pretty much every day -- before

the first mysore class.

[Guest guest]

I haven't read all the responses yet, although I support many of those

already written. First off speaking of the 'Western culture' you must

understand that we do have an extremely different lifestyle then those

who live in India. If we are looking to help people to become

'conscience' or 'kind' using yoga as a tool, we must speak slowly as if

we were speaking of any new experience. Many Americans (without

judgment) cannot comprehend the benefits of meditating right away. They

can however understand the feeling of an asana practice which in my mind

are moving meditations or the peace after savasana. At some point many

will continue to learn, understand and seek more paths, yet it is

'easier' I believe to start on a physical level.

There are so many perspectives that come through my head when I read

this question. I'll try to be brief.

Actually I'll just stop here by saying that I disagree that so few

teachers offer meditation...

 

 

w_cottrell wrote:

>

>

> So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

>

> In which case, why do so few teachers offer it?

>

> It's all very well for dynamic styles to claim they are a 'moving

> meditation'. Odd, however: after five years of Buddhist practice, none

> of the meditations I have done have involved listening to someone talk

> for ninety minutes. Indeed, it kind of defeats the object.

>

> Isn't it about time that Western-oriented styles admit that they are

> asana, not yoga? The odd bit of chanting, or meditation at the end of

> the class hardly justifies a place on the 'EIGHT limbed path'

>

> The Economist's recently did a biography of Pattabi Jois (yeah!). The

> summary paragraph posed the question: why did he not practice? The

> answer: because he'd gone BEYOND asana. Into meditation, duh.

>

> In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Gayle,

 

THE BENEFITS OF MEDITATION

 

or as you've said " ...many Americans cannot comprehend the benefits of

meditation... " . Good observation of a condition which does exist and therefore

would be applicable to the Abhidharma analysis that I adore. The problem is that

of the proverbial VALUE STRUCTURE and/or HIERARCHICAL EXISTANCE. Putting it

bluntly, from my own personal position since 1978, MONEY is not a ROOT CAUSE,

money is not a root, money is a fertilizer or a defication (shit) which

nourishes the akusala addictions found in the emotional realm.

 

Pardon me but I'm learning and practicing some Tibetan esoteric buddhist

practices through Tantra and so my view is very obscure or oblique. The problem

exists within a consconsciousness which is alien to the human organism or

sentient being. The problem basically originates in the consciousness of

PERSONAL GRATIFICATION and the display of CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION. We find this

best shown in the way that Americans have maintained their institutions of

Health Care and Education. In Health Care, for instance, when I was almost

murdered on Rockwell a block or two south of Lawrence in the mid-1990s I

eventually ended up at Northwestern University hospital where, on my first

surgery, which took 12 hours, I was not permitted to stay at the hospital for

the night. I was immediately shown the doorway, although I was still under the

influence of the major tranquillizers needed for such a long surgery and my

friends had to be my consciousness. Ah, but, I still needed another surgery to

place my teeth in line so that I could chew food and to put my nose back in the

center of my face. Interesting, I was always viewed as a pauper and poor yet my

second surgery miraculously earned me a private room and an entire night's stay,

when I woke up. Could this be a RESULTANT PHENOMENA of the fact that the

hospital concluded that they were donating my surgeries and so did what they

could to reduce the cost of having my body take up a bed in their grandeous

hotel, I mean Hospitalliers, I mean Hospital? it seems that my Medicare paid

immediately and probably was a shock to the system which binds Northwestern

University hospital since the entire premise was that I was of no value and/or

valueless. yet upon receiving such a prompt and miraculous payment of services

the hospital extended a private room to me. This is a very clear example of a

value structure at work in a systematic organizational context. This can then be

seen by extending the miniscule persoanlization which I give to the event,

extend it outward and magnify the event to encompass the entire society or even

the entire world. here we are clearly able to visualize and see the actualities

which exist. Although the Abhidharma is without contention for it's

applicability, we do not even need to resort to such extremes to be able to see

and experience the actuality of such mundane and childish behaviors coming from

people that claim they are not robots but are actual human beings and therefore

require more money to feed their addictions.

 

Meidtation is such an extraordinary tool but such a difficult practice to begin,

then even more difficult to maintain the practice, but even more difficult if

not almost impossible for a normal status quo individual to apply the benefits

of meditation and the higher practices of meditation. The problem begins first

with the cognition of meditation and the practice of meditation. For instance,

the Karma Sutra is viewed as nothing more than a hedonistic tool/manual/user's

guide/bible for obtaining personal gratification through pleasure. FAR FROM IT!

The Karma Sutra is a valuable tool which is part of the system of Tantras and is

DIRECTLY APPLICABLE BY THE MANIPULATION OF THE BODY AND THE SENSES OF THE BODY

(i.e. eye-consciousness, ear-counsciousness, tactile-consciousness,

alaya-vijnana, mind-consciousness, et al). THEREFOR, to have such a control of

the body the individual has to practice,practice,practice, and still

practice,practice,practice since these REALITIES actually do work. The

" corporatte machine " cannot allow a potential slave and provider of what the

machine needs to survive, realizing that the machine is a despot and a worthless

dictator. If the machine allowed a slave to escape it's control then the movie

THE MATRIX would never have been conceived of; there would never have been

hundreds of crucified bodies advertising the benefits of life in Rome lining the

Apian Way as if the Apian Way was a Turnpike in the Northeast part of the USA;

there would never be any Killing Fields in Vietnam or Furnaces in GErmany to

cook people, there would be no population in Siberia at all since Moscow would

never had exported millions of it's citizens to Siberian GULAGS, etc.

 

That's the way it is.

 

lets not degrade meditation and actually pervert it's abilities through the MISS

REPRESENTATION of the practice of meditation! It's without a doubt a value that

you cognized a problem with the acceptance and the view of meditation in the

West but it is not the problem which existed within meditation it is the problem

which exists in the society of the West, in America, which is the

problem/CAUSATION for the WRONG VIEWS of meditation.

 

Wonderful talking with you!

 

toodles,

colette

ashtangayoga , Gayle <gayle wrote:

>

> I haven't read all the responses yet, although I support many of those

> already written. First off speaking of the 'Western culture' you must

> understand that we do have an extremely different lifestyle then those

> who live in India. If we are looking to help people to become

> 'conscience' or 'kind' using yoga as a tool, we must speak slowly as if

> we were speaking of any new experience. Many Americans (without

> judgment) cannot comprehend the benefits of meditating right away. They

> can however understand the feeling of an asana practice which in my mind

> are moving meditations or the peace after savasana. At some point many

> will continue to learn, understand and seek more paths, yet it is

> 'easier' I believe to start on a physical level.

> There are so many perspectives that come through my head when I read

> this question. I'll try to be brief.

> Actually I'll just stop here by saying that I disagree that so few

> teachers offer meditation...

>

>

> w_cottrell wrote:

> >

> >

> > So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

> >

> > In which case, why do so few teachers offer it?

> >

> > It's all very well for dynamic styles to claim they are a 'moving

> > meditation'. Odd, however: after five years of Buddhist practice, none

> > of the meditations I have done have involved listening to someone talk

> > for ninety minutes. Indeed, it kind of defeats the object.

> >

> > Isn't it about time that Western-oriented styles admit that they are

> > asana, not yoga? The odd bit of chanting, or meditation at the end of

> > the class hardly justifies a place on the 'EIGHT limbed path'

> >

> > The Economist's recently did a biography of Pattabi Jois (yeah!). The

> > summary paragraph posed the question: why did he not practice? The

> > answer: because he'd gone BEYOND asana. Into meditation, duh.

> >

> > In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

HI

 

I am new to this forum but i thought i would make a few comments here.

 

someone had asked, why teachers dont teach more meditation and i think that one

of the reasons it is lacking in some schools is that the teachers may not have

direct experience of meditation themselves due to their teacher not having the

skill and so on. The emphasis today in most training structures is geared at

asana and not the higher vibrations of yoga such as dharana, dhyana and samadhi.

 

another reason may be that the majority of the students in classes are not

really interested in yoga they just want to " stretch " and that is what happens

when asana classes are missing the true meaning of yoga.

 

one of the main aspects of asana practise is to stop the bodies messages

interferring with the meditational process. Shamata (calm) is the key in laying

a strong foundation toward the goal of yoga - samadhi.

 

I have seen and met many meditators, many of them monks that dedicate their

lives to this practise and not one of them sits in padmasana. the majority of

them including myself sit in siddhasana, a few older practioners also sit in

agnistambhasana.

 

Meditation is something that can be practised at any level, you have to start to

progress.

 

just my thoughts

metta

kim

[Guest guest]

I am a born-and-raised US citizen. I am 51 and have been working out since I

was 15. I tried Hatha Yoga asanas during my teen years, treating them mostly

as stretching exercises because that was what I knew. I liked them, but the

emphasis in school was on muscular development to attract girls and that was

my priority then....

 

During my early- and middle-adult years, fitness came and went according to

the currents of my other endeavors. I came back to asanas a couple of times,

but always from the point of view of physical exercise. I never realized

something was lacking.

 

I will point out here that this does not make me evil or odd or stupid. It

was all I knew because that was the culture I was raised in. This is

important because I sometimes sense finger-pointing in this discussion and I

would rather see that fade away as the globe gets smaller. We are no

different - just exposed to different circumstances.

 

I learned meditation more recently than many other skills and perhaps that

is expected in this culture as materialism is a measure of success, not the

degree of personal exploration. It would have been odd if I hadn't thought

that way, given my environment. I don't feel I am the only one who is

exploring new things, though, and I expect that the slow melding if cultures

will bring the benefits of each to the surface over time.

 

As a psych nurse, I bring mindful practices to my patients as skills to help

them cope with the things that overwhelm them. After trying them, these

people cling to the skills like drowning men to life rings. I believe this

is a sign of how thirsty they are and a promise of how meditation can bring

relief from that spiritual thirst.

 

I don't think it is just patients that feel the thirst. Many who have not

learned balance will naturally feel the lack. If change is modeled and

offered with a tone of tolerance, kindness and compassion, the result may be

person after person picking up the skills.

 

That many folks around the world have not shown an interest in meditation is

not because they don't want it, but simply because they don't know they want

it. Offer it in a spirit that encourages communication and sooner or later

some will show interest. And the more that do, the more that will.

 

D

 

On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 9:50 PM, thekimbha <thekimbha wrote:

 

 

HI

 

I am new to this forum but i thought i would make a few comments here.

 

someone had asked, why teachers dont teach more meditation and i think that

one of the reasons it is lacking in some schools is that the teachers may

not have direct experience of meditation themselves due to their teacher not

having the skill and so on. The emphasis today in most training structures

is geared at asana and not the higher vibrations of yoga such as dharana,

dhyana and samadhi.

 

another reason may be that the majority of the students in classes are not

really interested in yoga they just want to " stretch " and that is what

happens when asana classes are missing the true meaning of yoga.

 

one of the main aspects of asana practise is to stop the bodies messages

interferring with the meditational process. Shamata (calm) is the key in

laying a strong foundation toward the goal of yoga - samadhi.

 

I have seen and met many meditators, many of them monks that dedicate their

lives to this practise and not one of them sits in padmasana. the majority

of them including myself sit in siddhasana, a few older practioners also sit

in agnistambhasana.

 

Meditation is something that can be practised at any level, you have to

start to progress.

 

just my thoughts

metta

kim

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kim,

 

Nice thoughts and applicable. Very good that you specified that there are

" higher " forms of consciousness and practice. This has always been a problem of

mine, that I get so aggrivated that the society has deliberately and

intentionally perverted the ACTUALITY of the practice. I guess this stems from

the SOLITARY CONFINEMENT that society has imposed upon since 1978 as if to

ammuse the jewish population of Chicago i.e. Skokie.

 

Without question there is a dillution prossess which occurs and gives the

supposed 'teachers' the ability to earn revenue from thier MISS INTERPRETATIONS

and/or MISS DIRECTIONS although I know how to go to hell so I do not need a

neophyte to point me in that direction. (Pardon my 'going off' but there

certainly does exist a CASTE SYSTEM and a CLASS STRUCTURE within democracy and

capitalism, especially in the USA, and my first Near Death Experience has only

shown me the power and existance of such groups as THE SPANISH INQUISITION, and

I cannot allow my colleagues and peers to be misguided by not making it clear

that the Kmer Rouge, et al, still exist which is a very Jewish tradition in the

examination of ODESSA. DEath does not mean that the person or the value

structure which the person worshipped, EXPIRED. Death is nothing more than a

change of consciousness. Please do not CLING to " this world " and the baubles and

trickets which make up the actuality which we all see and experience. For

instance, SVABHAVA IS PART OF CONSCIOUSNESS, in Buddhism it's refered to as

Buddha Nature and in Kaballism it's called Adam Kadmon, still there is a

cognition of a universal consciousness. In Hinduism it's refered to as the

Atman. Fine, I'm not debating that issue here. That REALITY exists and you

should be aware of it's existance in order to interpret my response here.

 

In the case of YOGA. I practice yoga, I have practiced yoga for many years. I

love it, HOWEVER IT IS A TIME CONSUMING ACTIVITY. Without question I feel that

every person should be introduced and given the chance to pursue YOGA and

MEDITATION, HOWEVER, in this society that is an absurdity. People simply do not

have the chance to EXPERIENCE the wonders and gifts of both YOGA and MEDITATION.

 

It is without question ADMIRABLE that some individuals in a society and/or

culture undertake the practice of YOGA and MEDITATION so as to bring it to their

colleagues and/or sisters and bros. I am simply an actual pracititioner of THE

MYSTERIES and now that I have been given such a long period of time actually

experiencing contact with other people in this respect I can see that it is not

a deliberate and intentional act of perversion and deviation which gives rise to

such practices of Yoga and Meditation in the WEst, it is simply a lack of

ability and desire to actually learn and practice the real practices. For

instance, in my case, I learned Pranayama by means of books from the Quest

Bookstore on North AVenue in Wheaton IL next to the Theosophical Society,

however, I learned that practice through a GOLDEN DAWN context. I had already

had several years of practice before I undertook such an extraordinary task but

when I tried to do it on my own I experienced unbelievable results -- for

instance for no reason at all, at any time of day or night, no matter where I

was, I would break out in the most profuse sweating and sensation of heat which

raised my respiratory system etc., or for no reason at all, some times, no

matter where I was or what I was doing, damn if I didn't just simply pass out,

lose consciousness. Let me tell ya, PRANAYAMA IS NOT AN EASY THING TO ACCOMPLISH

AND BECOME PERFICIANT AT.

--------------------

 

" ...is that the teachers may not have direct experience of meditation themselves

.... "

 

colette: THEN HOW THE HELL CAN THEY MISREPRESENT THEMSELVES AS TEACHERS if they

have no actual experience in the practice.

 

This is my entire point completely.

 

This is my entire point completely, ESPECIALLY WITH THESE CHARLATTANS THAT

PARADE AROUND AND FLAUNT THE WEALTH AS ACTUALLY BEING SOMETHING WORTHY OF ANY

KIND OF RESPECT WHICH IS NOT MERITTED BY THEIR COMPLETE DISRESPECT AND DISREGARD

FOR THE PRACTICES WHICH THEY DESIRE TO MESMERIZE THE PUBLIC WITH. You may care

to see the history of MESMER himself.

 

Fine, allow 'teachers' to practice and to try to maintain the lineages and their

practices, HOWEVER, at least give the potential prospect the right to know what

it is that they are subscribing to. If, for instance, the supposed 'teacher' is

nothing more than a member of the ANGRY WHITE MALE PARTY of the USA known as the

Republican Party and that this person only seeks to gain revenue from students

by means of the concept of a " caliphate " or a phallic-only institution THEN LET

IT BE KNOWN THAT THE ASPIRANTS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN DILDOS BEING USED AS TEST

DUMMIES.

 

I myself have been a victim of the misconceptions of Yoga for more than 25

years. I practice Yoga but have never had the time to actually research Yoga.

Lately, my studies in Tibetan Buddhism have led me to actually seek out real

information on Yoga. A few years ago I actually walked down the street, Kedzie

Ave., here in Chicago to find this Kriya Yoga Temple, which I eventually found.

I was full of misconceptions and WRONG VIEWS of kriya yoga, and therefore the

reason for a temple. Only now, after a few weeks, have I come to realize that

Hatha Yoga is where it all started and that Hatha Yoga is far more than a simple

yoga used to give relaxation and to give stretching excercises to students.

Hatha Yoga is the Yoga to beat all Yogas, it's where it all started and it

actually has it's own doctrine that makes these WEstern practitioners appear as

nothing more than " carney sideshows " . Just from what little I have had the time

to research i can say that the definition and practice of Pranayama that it is

based upon, in the Hatha tradition, is completely different from what the

practice is given in the Golden Dawn, which is where I acquired this skill from.

It is exactly like the practice of Astral Projection which I studied through

Golden Dawn material, et al, and it is all so dangerous for the unitiated and

the unsuspecting, to actually practice since these practices have foundations

upon which they are built and are verified as safe practices to accomplish,

HOWEVER, the everyday unsuspecting reader may stumble upon these practises and

the people who were/are money-motivated enough to simply just cast these

practise out into the world without any concern for the responsiblity they have

by transmitting these practices to the unsuspecting/unitiated etc, have to be

stopped and or controled. Myself, I will not take vows to join a gang or mob or

sorority/fraternity or any order THEREFORE my work is strictly SHAMANISTIC and

is completely outside the the formality of an order.

 

Thank you for such a splendid and accepting post. Most people simply view me as

CONFRONTATIONAL and therefore they attack me. Well, I can't say that

CONFRONTATION has been a well used debate technique of mine since CONFRONTATION

and SHOCK THERAPY are my most tried and true openers to any/all debates and

wars. I'm a lot older now since my days in Los Angeles in 1980-2 so I can't do

that schtick anymore and I simply can't accept that my only value is going to be

relegated to that of an acedemic teaching these practicees and mysteries.I

actually love making this stuff work and witnessing how this stuff works. It's

like the differences between some universities where a university is strictly

devoted to book knowledge and damned to any otehr science while actual

experiementation universities actually do the work and make the stuff work or

not.

 

I hope to hear from more people in this group in the future.

 

thanx.

 

toodles,

colette

 

 

ashtangayoga , " thekimbha " <thekimbha wrote:

>

>

>

> HI

>

> I am new to this forum but i thought i would make a few comments here.

>

> someone had asked, why teachers dont teach more meditation and i think that

one of the reasons it is lacking in some schools is that the teachers may not

have direct experience of meditation themselves due to their teacher not having

the skill and so on. The emphasis today in most training structures is geared at

asana and not the higher vibrations of yoga such as dharana, dhyana and samadhi.

>

> another reason may be that the majority of the students in classes are not

really interested in yoga they just want to " stretch " and that is what happens

when asana classes are missing the true meaning of yoga.

>

> one of the main aspects of asana practise is to stop the bodies messages

interferring with the meditational process. Shamata (calm) is the key in laying

a strong foundation toward the goal of yoga - samadhi.

>

> I have seen and met many meditators, many of them monks that dedicate their

lives to this practise and not one of them sits in padmasana. the majority of

them including myself sit in siddhasana, a few older practioners also sit in

agnistambhasana.

>

> Meditation is something that can be practised at any level, you have to start

to progress.

>

> just my thoughts

> metta

> kim

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree with one the points in the post, I think that each type of

class offers what the students are seeking, with ashtanga style led classes

emphasizing learning the physical postures and correct timing etc- which is fine

for those starting out or others who need a nice physical release/workout.

Given a good group of dedicated students even this sort of practice can be quite

good, as everyone stays in sync and people turn their focus on the breath.

However, mysore style or practicing a series at home is different. I found that

when I go in with the right intention and really try to focus on the breathing,

my mind goes through something similar to what goes on in exercises that prepare

the mind for meditation, like mantras, and other such devices to go within. It

really is a good way to work on stilling the mind (whacking out that ego)and

preparing for the last four limbs of yoga.

 

I'd venture a guess, but only a guess, that in the West, it's so easy to jump

between a plethora of spiritual practices that are not all that consistent with

each other. Meditation in yoga is different from meditation in Buddhism- both

in the practice and in the end product. One believes in union with a higher

self, the other believes in the primacy of nothingness sort of speak. The

ashtanga vinyasa system that was taught by Pattabhi Jois is a system within the

former tradition and requires a serious dedicated asana practice of many years

in order to work toward the latter stages of spiritual practice. So it's sort

of a wasted effort to decry the lack of emphasis on meditation in ashtanga

classes-- because a) you really need to work on asana and b) meditation is

something that comes later anyway when one is ready/desires to go deeper in the

practice.

 

It's like being an initiate in any 'cult'-- you have to prove that you really

want to be part of it-- so you really practice-- go to mysore style, do it at

home, maybe travel a bit, and show your commitment and teachers and other

serious students sort of open up to you and the entire ancient tradition becomes

apparent. It's an internal movement of mind and I sort of like it-- no one's

proselytizing down to students and those that choose to just use it for exercise

subsidize the teachers that have dedicated their lives to it.

 

Ella

 

ashtangayoga , " thekimbha " <thekimbha wrote:

>

>

>

> HI

>

> I am new to this forum but i thought i would make a few comments here.

>

> someone had asked, why teachers dont teach more meditation and i think that

one of the reasons it is lacking in some schools is that the teachers may not

have direct experience of meditation themselves due to their teacher not having

the skill and so on. The emphasis today in most training structures is geared at

asana and not the higher vibrations of yoga such as dharana, dhyana and samadhi.

>

> another reason may be that the majority of the students in classes are not

really interested in yoga they just want to " stretch " and that is what happens

when asana classes are missing the true meaning of yoga.

>

> one of the main aspects of asana practise is to stop the bodies messages

interferring with the meditational process. Shamata (calm) is the key in laying

a strong foundation toward the goal of yoga - samadhi.

>

> I have seen and met many meditators, many of them monks that dedicate their

lives to this practise and not one of them sits in padmasana. the majority of

them including myself sit in siddhasana, a few older practioners also sit in

agnistambhasana.

>

> Meditation is something that can be practised at any level, you have to start

to progress.

>

> just my thoughts

> metta

> kim

>

[Guest guest]

Re: So: asana is a preparation for meditation?

Posted by: " colette " ksheri3 ksheri3

Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:17 pm (PDT)

 

Hi Kim,

 

Nice thoughts and applicable. Very good that you specified that there are

" higher " forms of consciousness and practice. This has always been a problem of

mine, that I get so aggrivated that the society has deliberately and

intentionally perverted the ACTUALITY of the practice. I guess this stems from

the SOLITARY CONFINEMENT that society has imposed upon since 1978 as if to

ammuse the jewish population of Chicago i.e. Skokie

 

-------------

hello Colette

 

in the post right before yours, Darrel King points kindly about the benefits of

meditation and asks that the discussions here be non finger pointing or

negative. i hope that you're trying to be, not negative or critical, but robust,

as a meditation teacher worded it a while back. however, in reading your post ,

it is full of a lot of capitalization. in forums and writing in internet

newslists, this is like screaming, or being angry, so i am refraining from

reading further than first paragraph. actually, i read only the capitalized

words after that and got to a feeling of angst, anger and unrest. that is not

what i want to feel when reading a newsgroup on yoga. can you please refrain

from writing in this style in the future? it is disturbing. i hope the monitors

of this list agree with me.

 

thanks,

Arturo

[Guest guest]

From what I am told, and Please correct me if I am wrong. Guruji didn't stop

his practice due to reaching the end of the eight limbed path. Unfortunatly One

of his sons commited suicide. In india it was his custom that he must give up

the most important of his delights. In this instance... he gave up performing

Asana. He gave up his practice... can you only imagine the loss he felt. He lost

his son... and had to give up his own personal path of the Yoga Mala.

It is also " said " that once a single " Perfect " pose of Asana is accomplished,

one no longer needs to perform the Yoga. The Yogi can then concentrate on the

higher limbs of the Yamas and Niyamas. The next step being Pranayama. Not many

Teachers will teach these special Yogic Breathing Exercises, to thieir students,

until they are quite advanced on the Yogic Pathway. The Guru desides when you

are at the right place to be receiving the teaching. Lama's and Rinpoche's will

transmit their teachings in the same or similar tradition.

Not the same path... The Eight fold Path of the Buddha is not the same 8

steps of Patangali's Yoga Sutras. Just a coincidence that they both have the

number 8 in common. Even some buddhist's believe that they must Learn Right

Skill before they even begin Meditation Practice. We westerners like to " Dive "

right in, with no preparation. This can be a speedbump in the Path of the

teachings, whatever they may be. The emphasis, I believe, should be on the

Progress on the path... not how fast you travel upon it...

Guruji will be Back in his next life, To finish (or continue) his Mala... ;-)

 

Metta to All

 

ashtangayoga , " w_cottrell " <w_cottrell wrote:

>

> So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

>

> In which case, why do so few teachers offer it?

>

> It's all very well for dynamic styles to claim they are a 'moving meditation'.

Odd, however: after five years of Buddhist practice, none of the meditations I

have done have involved listening to someone talk for ninety minutes. Indeed, it

kind of defeats the object.

>

> Isn't it about time that Western-oriented styles admit that they are asana,

not yoga? The odd bit of chanting, or meditation at the end of the class hardly

justifies a place on the 'EIGHT limbed path'

>

> The Economist's recently did a biography of Pattabi Jois (yeah!). The summary

paragraph posed the question: why did he not practice? The answer: because he'd

gone BEYOND asana. Into meditation, duh.

>

> In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

>

[Guest guest]

I might note that few Buddhists believe that meditation, which is the core

of Buddhist practice, must wait for any prerequisite. Western tradition has

been rooted in the physical, the material, however, and so is follows

naturally that Yoga be first viewed for the physical fitness benefits. I

believe this begins to change as the value of meditation becomes more widely

known.

 

D

 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Steven <stevenlarock wrote:

 

 

From what I am told, and Please correct me if I am wrong. Guruji didn't stop

his practice due to reaching the end of the eight limbed path. Unfortunatly

One of his sons commited suicide. In india it was his custom that he must

give up the most important of his delights. In this instance... he gave up

performing Asana. He gave up his practice... can you only imagine the loss

he felt. He lost his son... and had to give up his own personal path of the

Yoga Mala.

It is also " said " that once a single " Perfect " pose of Asana is

accomplished, one no longer needs to perform the Yoga. The Yogi can then

concentrate on the higher limbs of the Yamas and Niyamas. The next step

being Pranayama. Not many Teachers will teach these special Yogic Breathing

Exercises, to thieir students, until they are quite advanced on the Yogic

Pathway. The Guru desides when you are at the right place to be receiving

the teaching. Lama's and Rinpoche's will transmit their teachings in the

same or similar tradition.

Not the same path... The Eight fold Path of the Buddha is not the same 8

steps of Patangali's Yoga Sutras. Just a coincidence that they both have the

number 8 in common. Even some buddhist's believe that they must Learn Right

Skill before they even begin Meditation Practice. We westerners like to

" Dive " right in, with no preparation. This can be a speedbump in the Path of

the teachings, whatever they may be. The emphasis, I believe, should be on

the Progress on the path... not how fast you travel upon it...

Guruji will be Back in his next life, To finish (or continue) his Mala...

;-)

 

Metta to All

 

ashtangayoga <ashtangayoga%40>,

" w_cottrell " <w_cottrell wrote:

>

> So: asana is a preparation for meditation (as Patanjali says)?

>

> In which case, why do so few teachers offer it?

>

> It's all very well for dynamic styles to claim they are a 'moving

meditation'. Odd, however: after five years of Buddhist practice, none of

the meditations I have done have involved listening to someone talk for

ninety minutes. Indeed, it kind of defeats the object.

>

> Isn't it about time that Western-oriented styles admit that they are

asana, not yoga? The odd bit of chanting, or meditation at the end of the

class hardly justifies a place on the 'EIGHT limbed path'

>

> The Economist's recently did a biography of Pattabi Jois (yeah!). The

summary paragraph posed the question: why did he not practice? The answer:

because he'd gone BEYOND asana. Into meditation, duh.

>

> In which case why is this emphasis not represented in western teaching?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

First, I hope you can understand what I´m tryint to say. My english is bad....

 

 

 

Yes, stevenlarock is right, Guruji stopt practice when his son passed away.

 

 

 

You do not have to do Asanas in yoga at all. Asanas is just a tool to gain

wisdom. When you travel in India, you rarly see any locals doing asanas in a

same matter as westerners. My teacher, Guruji and Maria Boox often told me that

asanas is just 1/8 of the way and in some parts of my life asanas will be more

importent and in other parts of my life it´s not important.

 

More important than asanas is Yama, Niyama and Pratyahara in some stages of

life.

 

 

 

And now meditation. I say the same thing as Guruji told. " What do you think you

have been doing? " That question he told when someone asked him about when to

learn meditation. Everything in Yoga is predps for meditation and to come to

" nirvikalpa samadhi " .

 

 

 

Yama and niyama learns you to be. Asanas preps your body and mind to calm down

and to gain streingh and stamina to sit long periods in meditation, Pranayama

calms your mind and preps for meditation. When practising asanas you preps for

pratyhara and Dharana.

 

 

 

When all steps above is done in a right way, you are on your way to be able to

sit in Dhyana for many hours and after that Savikalpa samadhi and nivikalpa

samadhi.

 

 

 

One other thing comes to my mind when speaking ov Meditation. Guruji told that

Meditation/Dhyana is not some technique that you can learn to do,

Meditation/Dhyana is a refining of our inner functions, elimenation of our egos

and one stability /absorption into God whitin our hearts.

 

 

 

As you can see, meditation is not treated same way in yoga as in buddhism. In

buddhism you can learn to meditate, refine your skills in that subject and gain

deeper and deeper knowledge. For a buddhist-monk, meditation makes him see the

truth and work with himself to refine his mind to be more pure and work towards

to be enlightened . For a Yogi/Yogini it works the other way, you have to refine

your body and mind first and then use Dhyana/meditation to be enlightened .....

 

 

 

//J

 

 

 

_______________

Nya Windows 7 - Hitta en dator som passar dig! Mer information.

http://windows.microsoft.com/shop

 

 

[Guest guest]

There are many roads that all lead to the same destination. Many people use

asana as away to clear the mind and to be rooted in the present moment. If you

are practicing one pointed concentration and you are rooted on the mat, you can

reach a state of oneness and meditation. We should not get caught up on the

techniques but the actual state that the techniques lead too.

 

 

Shanna

[Guest guest]

I do both mindful asanas and sitting meditation. I find they seem like

different approaches, yet essentially they are two routes to the same field:

I am in the moment, relating as directly to reality as I can.

 

D

 

2009/11/4 Jörgen Jönsson <jubbe063

 

>

>

>

> First, I hope you can understand what I´m tryint to say. My english is

> bad....

>

> Yes, stevenlarock is right, Guruji stopt practice when his son passed away.

>

> You do not have to do Asanas in yoga at all. Asanas is just a tool to gain

> wisdom. When you travel in India, you rarly see any locals doing asanas in a

> same matter as westerners. My teacher, Guruji and Maria Boox often told me

> that asanas is just 1/8 of the way and in some parts of my life asanas will

> be more importent and in other parts of my life it´s not important.

>

> More important than asanas is Yama, Niyama and Pratyahara in some stages of

> life.

>

> And now meditation. I say the same thing as Guruji told. " What do you think

> you have been doing? " That question he told when someone asked him about

> when to learn meditation. Everything in Yoga is predps for meditation and to

> come to " nirvikalpa samadhi " .

>

> Yama and niyama learns you to be. Asanas preps your body and mind to calm

> down and to gain streingh and stamina to sit long periods in meditation,

> Pranayama calms your mind and preps for meditation. When practising asanas

> you preps for pratyhara and Dharana.

>

> When all steps above is done in a right way, you are on your way to be able

> to sit in Dhyana for many hours and after that Savikalpa samadhi and

> nivikalpa samadhi.

>

> One other thing comes to my mind when speaking ov Meditation. Guruji told

> that Meditation/Dhyana is not some technique that you can learn to do,

> Meditation/Dhyana is a refining of our inner functions, elimenation of our

> egos and one stability /absorption into God whitin our hearts.

>

> As you can see, meditation is not treated same way in yoga as in buddhism.

> In buddhism you can learn to meditate, refine your skills in that subject

> and gain deeper and deeper knowledge. For a buddhist-monk, meditation makes

> him see the truth and work with himself to refine his mind to be more pure

> and work towards to be enlightened . For a Yogi/Yogini it works the other

> way, you have to refine your body and mind first and then use

> Dhyana/meditation to be enlightened .....

>

> //J

>

>

> ________

> Nya Windows 7 - Hitta en dator som passar dig! Mer information.

> http://windows.microsoft.com/shop

>

>

>