re: teacher with direct experiance

September 19, 2009

Lfie is not that black and white. I don't have to have experiance putting my

hand in a fire to know that I shouldn't put it there. A doctor doesn't have to

have personally experianced having a heart attack to do heart surgery.

I totally understand what you are saying but many yoga poses build on a

foundation and if you understand the pose that makes the foundation, you may be

able to teach it wihout having ever done it.

Some people, based on anatomy and life experiances, may never be able to float

through lolasana. They will never be able to sit comfortably in lotus, or get

their leg behind their head. If they have an understanding of alignment,

anatomy, eloquent in speach and have worked with people who can do these poses,

it is possible that they can teach you.

Many people who teach yoga therapy have never had a torn rotator cuff or a

hamstring tear but they understand the body and the poses that it will take to

heal someone.

I have a friend who practices Primary who has watched me practicing second who

has said " hey, have you ever tried this? " They could look at my alignment and

their understanding of body placement and could tell me what I needed to do to

improve poses they had never done themselves.

Now that being said, I definitly believes that doing poses yourselves gives you

a unique understanding but just because you are a memeber of Cirque De Soliel

does not mean you need to teach yoga. Yes, I would rather practice with a

teacher who has direct experiance with the poses I am working on but is it

absolutley necessary that someone be able to perfectly execute every pose in a

sequence to teach? No I don't think so. There are so many other factors that

make a good teacher.

Also a lot of people for whom Ashtanga comes fairly easy to, can actually cause

injuries in others because they have no clue what it feels like to be extremely

tight, weak, tired, have injuries, to be sick etc. Sometimes people whose poses

are considered less then perfect can have amazing insights when working with the

body of the average person because they have been there themselves or are there

now. Well anyway, that part was a tangent.

September 20, 2009

Shanna,

Beautifully said..I totally agree...Namaste'

Linda

ashtangayoga , shanna small <lashannasmall wrote:

>

> Lfie is not that black and white. I don't have to have experiance putting my

hand in a fire to know that I shouldn't put it there. A doctor doesn't have to

have personally experianced having a heart attack to do heart surgery.

>

> I totally understand what you are saying but many yoga poses build on a

foundation and if you understand the pose that makes the foundation, you may be

able to teach it wihout having ever done it.

>

> Some people, based on anatomy and life experiances, may never be able to float

through lolasana. They will never be able to sit comfortably in lotus, or get

their leg behind their head. If they have an understanding of alignment,

anatomy, eloquent in speach and have worked with people who can do these poses,

it is possible that they can teach you.

>

> Many people who teach yoga therapy have never had a torn rotator cuff or a

hamstring tear but they understand the body and the poses that it will take to

heal someone.

>

> I have a friend who practices Primary who has watched me practicing second who

has said " hey, have you ever tried this? " They could look at my alignment and

their understanding of body placement and could tell me what I needed to do to

improve poses they had never done themselves.

>

> Now that being said, I definitly believes that doing poses yourselves gives

you a unique understanding but just because you are a memeber of Cirque De

Soliel does not mean you need to teach yoga. Yes, I would rather practice with a

teacher who has direct experiance with the poses I am working on but is it

absolutley necessary that someone be able to perfectly execute every pose in a

sequence to teach? No I don't think so. There are so many other factors that

make a good teacher.

>

> Also a lot of people for whom Ashtanga comes fairly easy to, can actually

cause injuries in others because they have no clue what it feels like to be

extremely tight, weak, tired, have injuries, to be sick etc. Sometimes people

whose poses are considered less then perfect can have amazing insights when

working with the body of the average person because they have been there

themselves or are there now. Well anyway, that part was a tangent.

>

September 20, 2009

I now have a deeper understanding of why yoga is in such a bad way these days.

one should not teach what one does not know..it is dishonest.

I would never contemplate teaching what i did not have direct experience with.

metta

kim

September 21, 2009

I have received amazing benefits from taking up ashtanga four years ago. I can

now work again, am happier, healthier and calmer, and have thrown many negative

activities out of my life.

I have three teachers, due to the days I am available and the classes on those

days, and by far my favourite teacher is the least experienced. She is someone

whose body is still recovering from 15 years in working IT, stuck at a desk, and

so her 10 years of yoga teaching haven't yet been enough to enable her to

perfect many of the more demanding poses. However, of all my teachers, she is

the only one with direct experience of taking up yoga later in life when your

stiff body has already developed decades-worth of bad habits. Hence she is

better at teaching people like me that either of my other gurus, both of whom

have practiced yoga since their early teens or before and have been teaching

yoga all their adult lives...

If " one should not teach what one does not know " then surely it's better - if

one is to teach stiff, unfit westerners who managed to go through 35 years of

their lives without learning the basic tenets of flexibility - to have been one

of those people, even if that means some of your asanas aren't perfect?

ashtangayoga , " kimbha " <thekimbha wrote:

>

> I now have a deeper understanding of why yoga is in such a bad way these days.

>

> one should not teach what one does not know..it is dishonest.

>

> I would never contemplate teaching what i did not have direct experience with.

>

> metta

> kim

>

September 22, 2009

Thanks for sending this, Daenelle. It is a useful reminder to me of the many

sides to any issue!

D

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:10 AM, daenelle <alicewrote:

I have received amazing benefits from taking up ashtanga four years ago. I

can now work again, am happier, healthier and calmer, and have thrown many

negative activities out of my life.

I have three teachers, due to the days I am available and the classes on

those days, and by far my favourite teacher is the least experienced. She is

someone whose body is still recovering from 15 years in working IT, stuck at

a desk, and so her 10 years of yoga teaching haven't yet been enough to

enable her to perfect many of the more demanding poses. However, of all my

teachers, she is the only one with direct experience of taking up yoga later

in life when your stiff body has already developed decades-worth of bad

habits. Hence she is better at teaching people like me that either of my

other gurus, both of whom have practiced yoga since their early teens or

before and have been teaching yoga all their adult lives...

If " one should not teach what one does not know " then surely it's better -

if one is to teach stiff, unfit westerners who managed to go through 35

years of their lives without learning the basic tenets of flexibility - to

have been one of those people, even if that means some of your asanas aren't

perfect?

ashtangayoga <ashtangayoga%40>,

" kimbha " <thekimbha wrote:

>

> I now have a deeper understanding of why yoga is in such a bad way these

days.

>

> one should not teach what one does not know..it is dishonest.

>

> I would never contemplate teaching what i did not have direct experience

with.

>

> metta

> kim

>

September 22, 2009

wow -- I seem to have stirred up some controversy --

My original statement was simply that in my opinion one shouldn't teach a

pose they haven't practiced.

This is not to suggest that being able to do a pose makes you a good

teacher. To the contrary -- i just see that as a first requirement -- or to

put it another way perhaps a boundary/limit to impose on your own teaching.

The analogy that somebody posted earlier (paraphrasing) you don't need to be

burned to teach somebody not to put their hand in a fire is not congruent

with my original statement. More accurately -- Would you want somebody to

teach you how to put your hand/body in the fire if they've never been in the

fire themselves?

Fire is indeed an apt analogy for asana -- its cathartic, cleansing, and

dangerous.

While I agree that a deep knowledge of anatomy and alignment will greatly

facilitate teaching, there is much to be learned by practicing a pose that

cannot be discerned from an external examination of the asana. For example

even in as " simple " a pose as janusirsasana C, once the foot is vertical,

and the bent knee down on the floor without the butt lifting up, much of

the work/exploration goes deep into the pelvic floor, internal abdominal

muscles, and deep hip muscles. None of this externally visible. If a

teacher hasn't experienced these actions they cannot offer

advice/instruction with regard to them.

I am a great believer in anatomically-informed teaching and see this as

something to look for in a teacher, the vast majority of teachers are

woefully undereducated in this area. For example -- ask teachers what the

action of the butt muscles (gluteus) is in backbending -- a significant

number will say the butt should be relaxed, another large number will say

contract the butt to stabilize the pose. Extremely few will say something

like -- the thighs must rotate inwardly. The gluteus maximus is an external

rotator so must relax to facilitate this. However, the gluteus medius and

minimus are internal rotators and can contract to facilitate the inward

rotation. -- Thus, part of the exercise is independently control glut max

from medius and minimus.

As someone who started later in life with a stiffer body, i agree that a

teacher who has experienced such difficulties may be more appreciative of

the issues faced by such a body than a young flexible person who as been

practicing since they were 7.

That being said, I still don't believe the older stiffer teacher should be

teaching poses they have not performed themselves.

Bear in mind, an ill-informed adjustment or suggestion can result in a

person living in pain the rest of their lives. Unfortunately such events

are all too common in the yoga world these days.

-tom

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 6:10 AM, daenelle <alicewrote:

>

> I have received amazing benefits from taking up ashtanga four years ago. I

> can now work again, am happier, healthier and calmer, and have thrown many

> negative activities out of my life.

>

> I have three teachers, due to the days I am available and the classes on

> those days, and by far my favourite teacher is the least experienced. She is

> someone whose body is still recovering from 15 years in working IT, stuck at

> a desk, and so her 10 years of yoga teaching haven't yet been enough to

> enable her to perfect many of the more demanding poses. However, of all my

> teachers, she is the only one with direct experience of taking up yoga later

> in life when your stiff body has already developed decades-worth of bad

> habits. Hence she is better at teaching people like me that either of my

> other gurus, both of whom have practiced yoga since their early teens or

> before and have been teaching yoga all their adult lives...

>

> If " one should not teach what one does not know " then surely it's better -

> if one is to teach stiff, unfit westerners who managed to go through 35

> years of their lives without learning the basic tenets of flexibility - to

> have been one of those people, even if that means some of your asanas aren't

> perfect?

>

> ashtangayoga <ashtangayoga%40>,

> " kimbha " <thekimbha wrote:

> >

> > I now have a deeper understanding of why yoga is in such a bad way these

> days.

> >

> > one should not teach what one does not know..it is dishonest.

> >

> > I would never contemplate teaching what i did not have direct experience

> with.

> >

> > metta

> > kim

> >

>

September 23, 2009

I found this response very helpful, but also thought provoking. I would very

much like more anatomically-informed teaching. I think I would benefit from a

more scientific awareness of what my postures are achieving and why I am

struggling with some and not others. I am not a spiritual person, indeed the

opposite, but you don't have to be a believer in a particular religious or

spiritual school to see that ashtanga yoga is a beautifully balanced healing and

health giving practice that benefits mind, body, spirit and mental health in a

massively positive way. I would love to gain more clarity in actually how that

is achieved. Tom, thank you for raising this in my mind, but where can I learn

things like this? You have started me off on a real quest here!

Daenelle

September 23, 2009

There are dozen's of good anatomy books. Also there are numerous classes in

" yoga anatomy " .

" Two excellent books for the visually oriented are produced by bhanda yoga

( " The Key muscles of Hatha Yoga " , and " The Key Poses of Hatha Yoga " ). They

are neat because they show you skeleton+certain muscles as they are oriented

in yoga poses. You can find this at http://www.bandhayoga.com. I think you

can view, perhaps download a portion of the books for free.

For the tactile oriented -- there are excellent anatomy courses that teach

anatomy by having you build clay muscles on a skeleton. Called " Anatomy in

clay " you can find materials and courses at www.anatomyinclay.com.

There is also Anatomy of Hatha Yoga: A manual for Students, teachers, and

Practitioners by H. David Coulter;

" Yoga Anatomy " by Leslie Kaminoff (sp?);

and the classic " Anatomy of Movement " by Blandine Calais-Germain .

-Tom

On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 6:30 AM, A <alice wrote:

>

> I found this response very helpful, but also thought provoking. I would

> very much like more anatomically-informed teaching. I think I would benefit

> from a more scientific awareness of what my postures are achieving and why I

> am struggling with some and not others. I am not a spiritual person, indeed

> the opposite, but you don't have to be a believer in a particular religious

> or spiritual school to see that ashtanga yoga is a beautifully balanced

> healing and health giving practice that benefits mind, body, spirit and

> mental health in a massively positive way. I would love to gain more clarity

> in actually how that is achieved. Tom, thank you for raising this in my

> mind, but where can I learn things like this? You have started me off on a

> real quest here!

>

> Daenelle

>

September 24, 2009

Two great books on the benefits of poses is the yoga mala by pattabhi jois and

light on yoga by iyenger. There are also books on yoga anatomy that you can find

on amazon.

Shanna

September 24, 2009

Sri Patrabhi Joise said it best: " When the mind is quiet, the Asana is correct. "

ashtangayoga , " A " <alice wrote:

>

> I found this response very helpful, but also thought provoking. I would very