Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Dear Sriram, Namaste , venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: <<The ceremonies were reduced to mere mechanical and too ritualistic form of worship. In the name of yagas and kratus, the yajamanis, purohitas used to consume liquor (somarasa pana) and animal sacrifice was the order of the day.>> A ritual is supposed to be ritualistic. How can it be otherwise? That was serious allegation there. They did that because that was what was required. Nothing wrong with above. Sad to see they are on the decline. We need more people performing these. We should throw away vedanta into the Bay of Bengal and focus more on these rituals. >>Then witnessed was the period of Sunyavada of Buddha. Nothing wrong with above << there was an advent of Lord Siva with his band of 4 sanyasins. And he was JAGATGURU SANKARA. The establishment of strict codes and rules of Varnashrama Dharma goes to his credit. Establishing the panchayatana worship and srividya upasana in its pristine purity, this great personality disappeared in the Kedareshwara Linga. >> Acharya Sankara's disappearance was a mystery to many of the scholars. >> Stories are better left as stories. Rationalising them will lead to erroneous conclusions. The shaiva-s belive shiva actually came not in the form of shankaracharya but as somebody else and taught a different philosophy. Which group is right? And why are they right? We would like to see some reasoning here. Are we sure shiva want to confuse us? Btw, there is nop hierarchy like initially people need dvaita, vishiShtAdvaita and then gradutaing to advaita. That is silly. Please talk to learned dvaitins to find out why. veda: There is clearly evidence that women of first varna and second varna did follow vedic rituals along with recital in the past. probably women of the third varna did too. However I fail to see any evidence that people belonging to 4th varna were involved in study of veda. Kindly dont bring up the satyakAma jAbala story as evidence. It is patchy and inconclusive. Please see the following write-up by a very learned acquaintance of mine. ---- The saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s March 5, 2008 • No Comments OM namo akulavIrAya We beheld him, he who stands with the trident in the midst of the blaze of the dissolution of the universe. We beheld the 62 taijasa mayUkha-s shooting forth! We worshiped nandin at ODDiyAna, kArttikeya at pUrNagiri and vighna at kAmarUpa. ~*~*~ tava svAdhiShThAne hutavaham adhiShThAya nirataM tam IDe saMvartaM janani mahatIM tAM cha samayAM | yadAloke lokAn dahati mahati krodha kalite dayArdrA yaddR^iShTiH shishiram upachAraM rachayati || saundaryalahari 39 O geneatrix, I worship in your svAdhiShThana, saMvarta presiding over the fiery realm, and also that great samayA, whose glance moist with mercy initiates the cooling winter to the worlds when his (saMvarta) wrathful eruption [fire from the 3rd eye] burns the worlds. The core of the samayA-kula doctrine is provided by the saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s with which the principal tantra-s of the pashchimAmnAya open. The saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s of the kubjikA-mata tantra are shorter than those of the ShaTsAhasra-saMhitA, hence I provide the latter – the bR^ihat-saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s. I had a deep discussion of these with R1's father who provided me with a text of them. A printed version was published by the late Dutch scholar Jan Schroterman using 3 Nepali manuscripts. R1's father and his father had access to multiple Nepali manuscripts, which might have even perished since. They also studied the commentary the saMvartArtha-prakAsha which deals with the bR^ihat version. R1's father explained that the commentarial tradition records 9 human teachers of the doctrine of different varNa-s. This choice of nine of the teachers seems to be an attempt to keep in line with the bhairava's name navAtman. brAhmaNa teachers: trivikrama deshika, a sAmavedin from oDDiyAna. dAmodara deshika, a R^igvedin from the Konkans. govinda from mathurA vishNusharman from kAshI. kShatrIya teacher: udayarAja from Orissa vaishya teacher: dehila, a merchant from Andhra (shrIshaila) shUdra teachers: bAhila from Assam sehila from Kashmir mAhila, a liquor-store owner from the kundApura sector of oDDiyAna An interesting biographical tale is narrated regarding trivikrama deshika: He was born in a learned Brahmin family in oDDiyAna, where he learned the sAmaveda and as well as prayoga-s from all other veda- s and became a notable scholar. trivikrama was sent as an ambassador to Shri Lanka, where he was converted to the theravAda bauddha school. He then became a governor of a Lankan province and began persecuting Hindus with much vigor. Once he encountered a mantravadin named unmanishanAtha in a graveyard performing sAdhana. He tried to wake him up but failed. Finally, that mantrin awoke and looked at trivikrama and he had a sight of the glory of samayA and aghora (as in saundarya-lahari 34/39/41). He returned to the Hindu fold and became a teacher of the kula doctrine. He was attacked by pAShaNDa mantra-vAdin-s who followed the doctrine of shuddhodhana-putra at kAnyakubja, but he decimated them using the khAdakAstra mantra combined with the nR^isiMha mantra. He then assumed the name vyomAnandanAtha. In both the kubjikAmata and ShaTsAhasra saMhitA the sUtra-s are worked into verse approximating the sragdharA Chandas. I have marked the individual sUtra boundaries with `..' The bR^ihat saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s (ShaTsAhasra saMhitA) || huM shivAya shrI-kula-gaNAdhipataye namaH || .. saMvartAmaNDalaante krama-pada-nihitAnanda-shaktiH subhimA . .. sR^iShTi-nyAye chatuShkaM akula-kulagataM . pa~nchakaM caanya- ShaTkaM | chatvAraH pa~nchako.anyaH punar api chaturaH . . ShoDashaaj~naabhishekaM . .. devyAShTau mUrti-madhye . . *ha sa kha pha ra kalA bindupuShpaM* . . kha-mudrA . ||1|| .. bAlaM kaumAra-vR^iddhaM . . parama-shiva-kalA chakradevI kramAnAM . .. shrinatham chandrapuryAM nava-nava-kalitaM yugma bhedais ti sAraM . | .. siddhAs trINy avatAraM . . prathama kaliyuge ko~NkaNe chaadhikAraM . .. teShaM vai putra-shiShyA . . nava-puruSha-kramAs-teShu madhye dvirAShTau . ||2|| .. santAnaM gotra-piNDaM krama-pada-sakalaM ShoDashAntraM kramAntaM sheShA vai maNDalANAM pari-bhrama-vimalaM pUjaya-sadbhAva-vR^indaM . | .. AdAv aShTAdashaantaM kula-krama-sakalaM maNDalotthAna-pUrvaM . .. saMskAraM trih-kramottham pashu-mala-kShaya-kR^it piNDa-shuddhiH shivaagnau . ||3|| .. madhye vishrAma-bhUmau prasaram anubhavaM pratyayaM svAdhikAraM saMsR^iShTaM yena tasmai namatha guruvaraM bhairavaM shrIkujesham . ||4|| .. vR^ittyAdhyuShTakramaarthaM rachitam anubhavaM kha~njinI-mUrti- pUrvaM . .. divyaughaM deva-saMj~NaM punar api aparaM mAnavaM triH-kramaughaM . | .. bhedaanekair vibhinnaM sakala-pada-kramaM maNDalaM ShaTprakAraM . .. sa~NketaM kAdipUrvaM . . sakala-guNa-yutaM maNDalaM bhairavaM tam . || 5 || ------ Rgds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2008 Report Share Posted April 5, 2008 Dear Satish, --- Satish <satisharigela wrote: > A ritual is supposed to be ritualistic. How can it > be otherwise? > That was serious allegation there. They did that > because that was > what was required. Nothing wrong with above. Sad to > see they are on > the decline. We need more people performing these. > We should throw > away vedanta into the Bay of Bengal and focus more > on these rituals. When you say rituals, what do you mean by that term? There were a few or no rituals known in the Rg vedic times. The procedures seem to have been established at a later time to core rig vedic hymnal period. Could you kindly elaborate on it? If you could, then pl explain what do you think are the objectives of the rituals. Thanks, -gopal > > >>Then witnessed was the period of Sunyavada of > Buddha. > > Nothing wrong with above > > << there was an advent of Lord Siva with his band > of 4 sanyasins. > And he was JAGATGURU SANKARA. The establishment of > strict codes and > rules of Varnashrama Dharma goes to his credit. > Establishing the > panchayatana worship and srividya upasana in its > pristine purity, > this great personality disappeared in the > Kedareshwara Linga. >> > Acharya Sankara's disappearance was a mystery to > many of the > scholars. >> > > Stories are better left as stories. Rationalising > them will lead to > erroneous conclusions. The shaiva-s belive shiva > actually came not in > the form of shankaracharya but as somebody else and > taught a > different philosophy. Which group is right? And why > are they right? > > We would like to see some reasoning here. Are we > sure shiva want to > confuse us? Btw, there is nop hierarchy like > initially people need > dvaita, vishiShtAdvaita and then gradutaing to > advaita. That is silly. > Please talk to learned dvaitins to find out why. > > veda: There is clearly evidence that women of first > varna and second > varna did follow vedic rituals along with recital in > the past. > probably women of the third varna did too. > However I fail to see any evidence that people > belonging to 4th varna > were involved in study of veda. Kindly dont bring up > the satyakAma > jAbala story as evidence. It is patchy and > inconclusive. > > > Please see the following write-up by a very learned > acquaintance of > mine. > ---- > > The saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s March 5, 2008 • No > Comments > OM namo akulavIrAya > > We beheld him, he who stands with the trident in the > midst of the > blaze of the dissolution of the universe. We beheld > the 62 taijasa > mayUkha-s shooting forth! We worshiped nandin at > ODDiyAna, kArttikeya > at pUrNagiri and vighna at kAmarUpa. > > ~*~*~ > tava svAdhiShThAne hutavaham adhiShThAya nirataM > tam IDe saMvartaM janani mahatIM tAM cha samayAM | > yadAloke lokAn dahati mahati krodha kalite > dayArdrA yaddR^iShTiH shishiram upachAraM rachayati > || > saundaryalahari 39 > > O geneatrix, I worship in your svAdhiShThana, > saMvarta presiding over > the fiery realm, and also that great samayA, whose > glance moist with > mercy initiates the cooling winter to the worlds > when his (saMvarta) > wrathful eruption [fire from the 3rd eye] burns the > worlds. > > The core of the samayA-kula doctrine is provided by > the > saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s with which the principal > tantra-s of the > pashchimAmnAya open. The saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s of > the kubjikA-mata > tantra are shorter than those of the > ShaTsAhasra-saMhitA, hence I > provide the latter – the bR^ihat-saMvartAmaNDala > sUtra-s. I had a > deep discussion of these with R1's father who > provided me with a text > of them. A printed version was published by the late > Dutch scholar > Jan Schroterman using 3 Nepali manuscripts. R1's > father and his > father had access to multiple Nepali manuscripts, > which might have > even perished since. They also studied the > commentary the > saMvartArtha-prakAsha which deals with the bR^ihat > version. R1's > father explained that the commentarial tradition > records 9 human > teachers of the doctrine of different varNa-s. This > choice of nine of > the teachers seems to be an attempt to keep in line > with the > bhairava's name navAtman. > > brAhmaNa teachers: > trivikrama deshika, a sAmavedin from oDDiyAna. > dAmodara deshika, a R^igvedin from the Konkans. > govinda from mathurA > vishNusharman from kAshI. > kShatrIya teacher: > udayarAja from Orissa > vaishya teacher: > dehila, a merchant from Andhra (shrIshaila) > shUdra teachers: > bAhila from Assam > sehila from Kashmir > mAhila, a liquor-store owner from the kundApura > sector of oDDiyAna > > An interesting biographical tale is narrated > regarding trivikrama > deshika: He was born in a learned Brahmin family in > oDDiyAna, where > he learned the sAmaveda and as well as prayoga-s > from all other veda- > s and became a notable scholar. trivikrama was sent > as an ambassador > to Shri Lanka, where he was converted to the > theravAda bauddha > school. He then became a governor of a Lankan > province and began > persecuting Hindus with much vigor. Once he > encountered a mantravadin > named unmanishanAtha in a graveyard performing > sAdhana. He tried to > wake him up but failed. Finally, that mantrin awoke > and looked at > trivikrama and he had a sight of the glory of samayA > and aghora (as > in saundarya-lahari 34/39/41). He returned to the > Hindu fold and > became a teacher of the kula doctrine. He was > attacked by pAShaNDa > mantra-vAdin-s who followed the doctrine of > shuddhodhana-putra at > kAnyakubja, but he decimated them using the > khAdakAstra mantra > combined with the nR^isiMha mantra. He then assumed > the name > vyomAnandanAtha. > > In both the kubjikAmata and ShaTsAhasra saMhitA the > sUtra-s are > worked into verse approximating the sragdharA > Chandas. I have marked > the individual sUtra boundaries with `..' > > The bR^ihat saMvartAmaNDala sUtra-s (ShaTsAhasra > saMhitA) > || huM shivAya shrI-kula-gaNAdhipataye namaH || > > . saMvartAmaNDalaante krama-pada-nihitAnanda-shaktiH > subhimA . > . sR^iShTi-nyAye chatuShkaM akula-kulagataM . > pa~nchakaM caanya- > ShaTkaM | > chatvAraH pa~nchako.anyaH punar api chaturaH . . > ShoDashaaj~naabhishekaM . > === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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