Guru, Sastra and Pratyavaya

[Guest guest]

, venkata sriram

<sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

>

>>> The Gauri Panchakshari which we have from our parampara and the

parampara of Brahmasri Tadepalli Raghavanarayana Shastrigal is

“maya rama kama bijas gauryai namahâ€. Now, this does not become

Gauri Panchakshari. But this mantra comes from a siddha parampara

and the guru who initiated is a shrotriya nishta and has performed

mantra purascharana and attained mantra siddhi.

>>>

 

I have seen this mantra before and have nothing to say on this as I

am not aware of any shloka which has mantroddhAra for G.Panchakshari

nor did I come across something which runs contrary to this practice.

 

The reason I mentioned this to make you understand that my objection

was simply not based on number of letters but based on alternate

prescriptions in more authoritative and standard texts.

 

 

>

>>> The medha dakshinamurthy mantra which we have from the

parampara of Sringeri Siva Ganga is also a slight change with 24

bijas to 25 bijas and accordingly the Medha Dakshinamurthy Yantra was

designed. This mantra and yantra are the siddha upasanas in Siva

Ganga Parampara from the lineage of Gangadhara Subramanya Bharati,

Abhinava Gangadhara Subramanya Bharati and Satchidananda Bharati.

The last word “prayaccha†is changed to “prayacchatuâ€.

Because there is a pratyavaya with “prayaccha†in Medha

Dakshinamurthy Mantra.

>>>

 

What are the reasons for considering that there is a pratyavAya in 24

lettered mantra?

It need not be a quote from any manual or text but just like to hear

a reason or two. The upanishad gives 24 a lettered mantra. There are

other mantra manuals which give this as 24 lettered. We would like to

hear the reasons as to why a particular tradition thinks they are

wrong/defective.

 

 

>>> Moreover, the Chandi Navakshari that is being done alongwith

Sapthasathi in Sringeri Sivaganga Parampara is PRANAVA SAHITA. The

entire family of the mutt alongwith the Mutt Upasaka whom I know does

the Pranava Sahita Navakshari. The japa of Navakshari and Chandi

Homa is done Pranava Sahita.

>>>

 

That there is a certain practice in a certain tradition does not

automatically validate something. There has to be a tradition and a

shastra which that tradition follows.

 

I must caution you against misunderstanding me here. I am not saying

that you or anyone should stop using pranava. From other evidence, it

just looks redundant, meaning that inclusion or exclusion of pranava

in this case does nothing(yes the baDabanala says something, but its

warning shows us that people have been using pranava long before the

text came to be known).

 

 

> >> As per the sastra pramana (kalika purana), the 4th varna should

not utter the pranava (Om). For them, “aum†is the pranava. Now,

all the people irrespective of varna ashramas, are uttering the

pranava mantra which is “Omâ€. Even the Rahasya Sahasranama of

Lalitha Parayana should be suffixed and prefixed with Pranava for

traivarnikas and “aum†for ladies and for 4th varna. Shri

Bhasakra refers to this in the preface of Chalakshara Sutras. How

many are following this?

> >>

 

Isnt it more of a recommendation than prescription. As for me I never

use pranava nor women who belong to my tradition. They replace vadika

pranava i.e. oM with tAntrika pranava i.e. mAyA bIja - also called

teh shaiva pranava.

 

 

> And hence, the Guru is the Pramana for any Mantra Anushtana.

For anything and everything, Sastra cannot be quoted. The guru who

is shrotriya nishta, mantra siddha only can direct the path of the

upasaka.

>

 

That guru is above shAstra is more of an extreme tAntric view and not

a vadika view. That a guru should be put above the pedestal of

shAstra is not warranted in smriti.

 

Regards

[Guest guest]

What is the pratyavaya with prayaaccha I would not disclose in the

forum as this has to be learnt from one's parampara. There is the

pratyavaya felt by acharyas of Sivaganga Parampara and hence this

prescription.

 

The Medha Dakshinamurthy Mantra what I know which is prevalent with

the mUla AchAryA of Sringeri Sivaganga Mutt alongwith Paramahamsa

Parivrajakacharya Gangadharendra Subramanya Bharati, his disciple

Abhinava Gangadharendra Subramanya Bharati, his disciple Shri

Satchidananda Bharati Mahaswamigal is " prayacchatu " .

 

Now why " prayacchatu " and why not " prayaccha " is because there is a

difference in the approach to Guru Dakshinamurthy here. I need not

tell the difference between " Give " and " Please Give " . It is

something similar to this. " Please Give " is the tone of humility with

which you are seeking the blessings of Dakshinamurthy for Medha and

Pragnya. I talked to the present Pithadhipati who was campaigning

last week in Hyderabad. On approached by me, swamigal told that the

mantra " prayacchatu " alongwith the Yantra is coming from the

parampara of Sivaganga Mutt which is very sastraic in approach.

 

Even one of my friends (name withheld for the sake of privacy) has

the Medha Dakshinamurthy Mantra with some extra bijas mantras in it

(who happens to be from the illustrious Sringeri parampara).

 

If we go by shastra, we will not find these mantras and bija

combinations in Dakshinamurthy Upanishad and moreover we cannot brush

their upasana aside claiming to be baseless and against the shastra.

 

That is why one should bow before the Guru Sampradaya without

questioning attitude.

 

With regards,

sriram

 

 

 

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , venkata sriram

> <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:

> >

> >>> The Gauri Panchakshari which we have from our parampara and the

> parampara of Brahmasri Tadepalli Raghavanarayana Shastrigal is

> “maya rama kama bijas gauryai namahâ€. Now, this does not

become

> Gauri Panchakshari. But this mantra comes from a siddha parampara

> and the guru who initiated is a shrotriya nishta and has performed

> mantra purascharana and attained mantra siddhi.

> >>>

>

> I have seen this mantra before and have nothing to say on this as I

> am not aware of any shloka which has mantroddhAra for

G.Panchakshari

> nor did I come across something which runs contrary to this

practice.

>

> The reason I mentioned this to make you understand that my

objection

> was simply not based on number of letters but based on alternate

> prescriptions in more authoritative and standard texts.

>

>

> >

> >>> The medha dakshinamurthy mantra which we have from the

> parampara of Sringeri Siva Ganga is also a slight change with 24

> bijas to 25 bijas and accordingly the Medha Dakshinamurthy Yantra

was

> designed. This mantra and yantra are the siddha upasanas in Siva

> Ganga Parampara from the lineage of Gangadhara Subramanya Bharati,

> Abhinava Gangadhara Subramanya Bharati and Satchidananda Bharati.

> The last word “prayaccha†is changed to “prayacchatuâ€.

> Because there is a pratyavaya with “prayaccha†in Medha

> Dakshinamurthy Mantra.

> >>>

>

> What are the reasons for considering that there is a pratyavAya in

24

> lettered mantra?

> It need not be a quote from any manual or text but just like to

hear

> a reason or two. The upanishad gives 24 a lettered mantra. There

are

> other mantra manuals which give this as 24 lettered. We would like

to

> hear the reasons as to why a particular tradition thinks they are

> wrong/defective.

>

>

> >>> Moreover, the Chandi Navakshari that is being done alongwith

> Sapthasathi in Sringeri Sivaganga Parampara is PRANAVA SAHITA. The

> entire family of the mutt alongwith the Mutt Upasaka whom I know

does

> the Pranava Sahita Navakshari. The japa of Navakshari and Chandi

> Homa is done Pranava Sahita.

> >>>

>

> That there is a certain practice in a certain tradition does not

> automatically validate something. There has to be a tradition and a

> shastra which that tradition follows.

>

> I must caution you against misunderstanding me here. I am not

saying

> that you or anyone should stop using pranava. From other evidence,

it

> just looks redundant, meaning that inclusion or exclusion of

pranava

> in this case does nothing(yes the baDabanala says something, but

its

> warning shows us that people have been using pranava long before

the

> text came to be known).

>

>

> > >> As per the sastra pramana (kalika purana), the 4th varna

should

> not utter the pranava (Om). For them, “aum†is the pranava.

Now,

> all the people irrespective of varna ashramas, are uttering the

> pranava mantra which is “Omâ€. Even the Rahasya Sahasranama of

> Lalitha Parayana should be suffixed and prefixed with Pranava for

> traivarnikas and “aum†for ladies and for 4th varna. Shri

> Bhasakra refers to this in the preface of Chalakshara Sutras. How

> many are following this?

> > >>

>

> Isnt it more of a recommendation than prescription. As for me I

never

> use pranava nor women who belong to my tradition. They replace

vadika

> pranava i.e. oM with tAntrika pranava i.e. mAyA bIja - also called

> teh shaiva pranava.

>

>

> > And hence, the Guru is the Pramana for any Mantra Anushtana.

> For anything and everything, Sastra cannot be quoted. The guru

who

> is shrotriya nishta, mantra siddha only can direct the path of the

> upasaka.

> >

>

> That guru is above shAstra is more of an extreme tAntric view and

not

> a vadika view. That a guru should be put above the pedestal of

> shAstra is not warranted in smriti.

>

> Regards

>

[Guest guest]

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

> Now why " prayacchatu " and why not " prayaccha " is because there is a

> difference in the approach to Guru Dakshinamurthy here. I need not

> tell the difference between " Give " and " Please Give " . It is

> something similar to this. " Please Give " is the tone of humility

>with

> which you are seeking the blessings of Dakshinamurthy for Medha and

> Pragnya.

 

One will find many mantra-s which ask the devata-s various things and

in different tones. Going by this are we to assume all such mantra-s

require changes? Anyway...I only asked what are the reason/s for this

change but notice that I did not have any positive or negative

comments on that. I am neutral on this one and ofcourse I have no

doubt about their upAsana/anuShThAna balaM.

 

 

> If we go by shastra, we will not find these mantras and bija

> combinations in Dakshinamurthy Upanishad and moreover we cannot

brush

> their upasana aside claiming to be baseless and against the

shastra.

 

I will stress again what I have said in the previous mail. I am not

saying only those that can be found in manuals are valid. Please see

my comments on G.Panchakshari.

 

 

> That is why one should bow before the Guru Sampradaya without

> questioning attitude.

 

This is never encouraged and against the spirit of our traditions and

harmful in the long run.

[Guest guest]

, venkata sriram

<sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

 

> We took worship the same yantra. But going by Dakshinamurthy

Upanishad, the mantra is having Payaccha. So, can we deny the

anushtana bala

> of Subramanya Bharati who was a great upasaka and mantra siddha of

Dakshinamurthy? Certainly Not. There is a pratyavaya with 24 bija of

Dakshinamurthy but who knows about this? But still, the parampara of

japa of 24 bija Dakshinamurthy mantra continues….

>

> Moreover, the Chandi Navakshari that is being done alongwith

Sapthasathi in Sringeri Sivaganga Parampara is PRANAVA SAHITA. The

entire family of the mutt alongwith the Mutt Upasaka whom I know does

the Pranava Sahita Navakshari. The japa of Navakshari and Chandi Homa

is done Pranava Sahita.

priya SrIrAm,

 

Please excuse me for interruption. As far as I know, worship of

any mantra depends upon two BhUmiklAs. One is Bhakti and the other is

'g*nAna'. Bhakti is more important when we do bAhya pUja and when we

do japa, we should always think ourselves as I myself is the deity of

the mantra we chant.We have to arise the 'pUrNAhanta' while doing

japa. While doing pUja the place should be in the 'hR^idaya' and the

place of japa should always be in the forehead.

 

SrIrAma has fastingly prostrated before 'sAgara " for three

days and prayed before him, narrating all the story of loosing his

wife abducted by 'rAvaNa' and only to get her back he requested

'sAgarA`s' help in giving way for him to reach lanka with all his

army. But the 'sAgara' did not heed his words. Then 'rAma' had to

arise his 'pUrNAhanta' and asked lakshmaNa to bring his bow and

arrows, saying that when 'sAgara' is not recognizing him with the

prayers of my Bhakti, I will have to opt for the 'pUrNAhanta' and

exsiccate all the waters and proceed in our journey. Then only

'sAgara' came out surrendering.

 

So, what I think is while we do 'bAhya pUja' the mantra should

be as " prayacCatu " and while doing japa it should always be as

" prayacCa " only. Unless having 'pUrNAhanta' during japa, the very

purpose of acheiving the " SwarUpa nirUpaNa " is not possible (This is

always " guhyAti guhya " , hense good sadhakas will not reveal it, but

only instruct other new sAdhakAs to follow the Bhakti mArga only,

which itself may lead him to g^nAna mArga in course of time.)

 

Please excuse me if I have exeeded any limits.

" kaula pratiShTAm na kuryAt "

[Guest guest]

Dear sir,

 

Namaste. I am immensely happy to see your statement which

is " reiteration " of the words of my gurunatha and paramapujya acharya

of sivaganga mutt.

 

Certain rahasyas should not be revealed in public forums and hence i

did not speak about pratyavaya. A srividyopasaka should protect his

kula dharma and kula shastra.

 

shrI dakshiNAmUrthy prasIdatu...

 

with regards,

sriram

 

, " krishnarao " <lanka.krishnarao

wrote:

>

> , venkata sriram

> <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:

>

> > We took worship the same yantra. But going by Dakshinamurthy

> Upanishad, the mantra is having Payaccha. So, can we deny the

> anushtana bala

> > of Subramanya Bharati who was a great upasaka and mantra siddha

of

> Dakshinamurthy? Certainly Not. There is a pratyavaya with 24 bija

of

> Dakshinamurthy but who knows about this? But still, the parampara

of

> japa of 24 bija Dakshinamurthy mantra continues….

> >

> > Moreover, the Chandi Navakshari that is being done alongwith

> Sapthasathi in Sringeri Sivaganga Parampara is PRANAVA SAHITA. The

> entire family of the mutt alongwith the Mutt Upasaka whom I know

does

> the Pranava Sahita Navakshari. The japa of Navakshari and Chandi

Homa

> is done Pranava Sahita.

> priya SrIrAm,

>

> Please excuse me for interruption. As far as I know, worship

of

> any mantra depends upon two BhUmiklAs. One is Bhakti and the other

is

> 'g*nAna'. Bhakti is more important when we do bAhya pUja and when

we

> do japa, we should always think ourselves as I myself is the deity

of

> the mantra we chant.We have to arise the 'pUrNAhanta' while doing

> japa. While doing pUja the place should be in the 'hR^idaya' and the

> place of japa should always be in the forehead.

>

> SrIrAma has fastingly prostrated before 'sAgara " for three

> days and prayed before him, narrating all the story of loosing his

> wife abducted by 'rAvaNa' and only to get her back he requested

> 'sAgarA`s' help in giving way for him to reach lanka with all his

> army. But the 'sAgara' did not heed his words. Then 'rAma' had to

> arise his 'pUrNAhanta' and asked lakshmaNa to bring his bow and

> arrows, saying that when 'sAgara' is not recognizing him with the

> prayers of my Bhakti, I will have to opt for the 'pUrNAhanta' and

> exsiccate all the waters and proceed in our journey. Then only

> 'sAgara' came out surrendering.

>

> So, what I think is while we do 'bAhya pUja' the mantra

should

> be as " prayacCatu " and while doing japa it should always be as

> " prayacCa " only. Unless having 'pUrNAhanta' during japa, the very

> purpose of acheiving the " SwarUpa nirUpaNa " is not possible (This is

> always " guhyAti guhya " , hense good sadhakas will not reveal it, but

> only instruct other new sAdhakAs to follow the Bhakti mArga only,

> which itself may lead him to g^nAna mArga in course of time.)

>

> Please excuse me if I have exeeded any limits.

> " kaula pratiShTAm na kuryAt "

>

[Guest guest]

sriram wrote:

>

> Now why " prayacchatu " and why not " prayaccha " is because there is a

> difference in the approach to Guru Dakshinamurthy here. I need not

> tell the difference between " Give " and " Please Give " . It is

> something similar to this. " Please Give " is the tone of humility with

> which you are seeking the blessings of Dakshinamurthy for Medha and

> Pragnya. I talked to the present Pithadhipati who was campaigning

> last week in Hyderabad. On approached by me, swamigal told that the

> mantra " prayacchatu " alongwith the Yantra is coming from the

> parampara of Sivaganga Mutt which is very sastraic in approach.

>

>

pra is the suffix that modifies the root yam and adds force.

 

* Both yachhatu and yaccha are " lot " lakara (aa~jna). It is called

imperative in English.

* yachha is Second Person (madhyama purushha) - as in tvam yachha - you

should give.

* yacchatu is third person (prathama purushha) - as is saH yachhatu - he

should give

 

yacchatu is asking indirectly and using third person in a request

considered a politer form when you lack intimacy or when you are dealing

with a very respectable person*. I think a lot depends on context.

 

Ravi

 

 

* It is the same difference as you see in " tava naama kim? " and

" bhavataH naama kim " . (in telugu, " mee pEru ENTi " vs " vaari pEru ENTi "

or in tamil when you ask an elder his name - instead of " unga pEru

enna " we ask " saar pEru enna " ). Third person removes the directness of

request. This kind of mellows down the request or even a question/insult.

[Guest guest]

Dear ravi,

 

Exactly what you said. You caught my pulse!!!

 

tasmai shrI gurumUrtayE namah idam shrI dakShiNAmUrtayE

 

regs,

sriram

 

 

, MSR <abhayambika wrote:

>

> sriram wrote:

> >

> > Now why " prayacchatu " and why not " prayaccha " is because there

is a

> > difference in the approach to Guru Dakshinamurthy here. I need

not

> > tell the difference between " Give " and " Please Give " . It is

> > something similar to this. " Please Give " is the tone of humility

with

> > which you are seeking the blessings of Dakshinamurthy for Medha

and

> > Pragnya. I talked to the present Pithadhipati who was

campaigning

> > last week in Hyderabad. On approached by me, swamigal told that

the

> > mantra " prayacchatu " alongwith the Yantra is coming from the

> > parampara of Sivaganga Mutt which is very sastraic in approach.

> >

> >

> pra is the suffix that modifies the root yam and adds force.

>

> * Both yachhatu and yaccha are " lot " lakara (aa~jna). It is called

> imperative in English.

> * yachha is Second Person (madhyama purushha) - as in tvam

yachha - you

> should give.

> * yacchatu is third person (prathama purushha) - as is saH

yachhatu - he

> should give

>

> yacchatu is asking indirectly and using third person in a request

> considered a politer form when you lack intimacy or when you are

dealing

> with a very respectable person*. I think a lot depends on context.

>

> Ravi

>

>

> * It is the same difference as you see in " tava naama kim? " and

> " bhavataH naama kim " . (in telugu, " mee pEru ENTi " vs " vaari pEru

ENTi "

> or in tamil when you ask an elder his name - instead of " unga pEru

> enna " we ask " saar pEru enna " ). Third person removes the

directness of

> request. This kind of mellows down the request or even a

question/insult.

>