Guest guest Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 It cannot be sure that linga rupa emanated from the symbol of phallus as there were certain parallel civilizations alongwith Vedic civilization. Rg veda, Taittiriya Aranyaka and Atharvaveda mentions about the worship of rudra in the form of *pillar of fire* which eventually gave rise to the worship of pillar (refer Skambasukta) which was the symbol of fertility. Some of the parallel civilisations based on tantric / tribal worship incorporated this *pillar* worship and visualised the Phallus as the object of Fertility. Also veda prohits the phallus worship (rg veda). The *pillar of fire* should remind of the famous puranic story where brahma and vishnu were not able to find out the beginning & end of the *pillar of fire*. Also, the veda says *rudro va eshad agnih*. Rudra worship was the worship of agni in the form of pillar of fire. The concept of phallus and yoni were the later parts which were tantric / tribal in approach. regs, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " Kumar Ramachandran " <kramach@> wrote: > > > > shrI gurubhyo namaH > > > > shrI mahAgaNapataye namaH > > > > > > > > dear Shri Satish: > > > > > > > > Out of all of the names in the shata rudriyam, how many pertain to the > > phallus ? Please don't be selective in your interpretations. > > > Namaste > > The name bhairava doesnt appear in shata rudrIyaM either. Does this mean we conclude rudra and bhairava are not related? > > I am trying to say that there is no relation between not finding a name of rudra which doesnt relate to the phallus and hence shiva linga being unrelated to phallus. > > The purANa-s are very clear that it is the mighty rudra's penis which is worshipped as a shiva linga and it is gaurI's yoni which is the base. There is nothing to be ashamed about this. If the westerners you are arguing with laugh/cackle, then use the same thing against them. Say that it is a million times better than salughtering infants which the christians are so fond of. Put them on the defensive by heaping criticisms because most likely they are not arguing with you to learn about our traditions but only to do the " psychological stoning " that I mentioned before. > > I am sure of one thing: If you continue with this mind set and look at our scriptures like this there will come a point where you will abandon our traditions. What is required is that we should try to understand our traditions for what they are instead of comparing with christianity and islam. If this mindset is because you wanted to make our traditions presentable to your western audiences I have nothing to say. If they make fun of our traditions you should fight back and show ours is the better way of looking at this cosmos snd not wind our tails around our backs and submit to their criticism. > > If you need tools(sharp criticism) to hammer those maggots we can supply them. > > > > > If what people are saying about polytheism is true, then please >also look at > > Ganapathi Atharvasheersham, wherein Ganesha is called as Brahma, Vishnu and > > is finally equated to PraNavam. How can this be true if the theories on > > polytheism are true. > > That we are not monotheistic is true just because of the very fact that he is equated with brahma, viShNu etc. > Doesnt this mean that brahma and viShNu are equally important. If they are not they would not have been mentioned in the first place right? If we are monotheistic the text would have said brahma, viShNu are false only ganesha is " ONE TRUE GAWD " . But it doesnt say that. > > At this stage it is very important that you read the following article closely. > http://www.india-forum.com/indian_culture/Why-Understand-the-Western-Culture-044\ ..html > > PS: Many years back I was arguing with others about how shiva linga is totally unrelated to anything phallic so I understand your concerns and your discomfort atleast to some extent. :-) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 The only thing I would like to point is, tAntric is not equal to tribal. tantra is a product of sophisticated philosophy, art, intuition and such things. One can hardly expect tribal cultures to be able to comprehend tantrika matters. There is also the mention of shishna deva-s in veda and erotic imagery/symbolism is prevalent in vedic yaga-s and vedic rituals. The prevalency of erotic symbolism in rituals need not necessarily mean they came from tantra. , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > It cannot be sure that linga rupa emanated from the symbol of phallus as there were certain parallel civilizations alongwith Vedic civilization. Rg veda, Taittiriya Aranyaka and Atharvaveda mentions about the worship of rudra in the form of *pillar of fire* which eventually gave rise to the worship of pillar (refer Skambasukta) which was the symbol of fertility. Some of the parallel civilisations based on tantric / tribal worship incorporated this *pillar* worship and visualised the Phallus as the object of Fertility. Also veda prohits the phallus worship (rg veda). > > The *pillar of fire* should remind of the famous puranic story where brahma and vishnu were not able to find out the beginning & end of the *pillar of fire*. Also, the veda says *rudro va eshad agnih*. Rudra worship was the worship of agni in the form of pillar of fire. > > The concept of phallus and yoni were the later parts which were tantric / tribal in approach. > > regs, > sriram > > , " Satish " <satisharigela@> wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: >Fertility. Also veda prohits the phallus worship (rg veda). > Can you please quote this verse? With best wishes, Ravi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 // sa shardhadaryo viSuNasya jantormA shishnadevA api gur ritam nah // says the 21st sukta from 7th Mandala of Rg Veda. which says that the phallus worshippers (worshippers of shishnadeva) are forbidden from entering the *ritam*. Ritam also means cosmic order, righteous path, path of truth / light. Though the phallus worship was it seems popular during vedic times, its worshippers were not allowed to participate in the vedic worships. Similar mantras are also seen in 10th mandala. regs, sriram , " MSR " <miinalochanii wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote: > >Fertility. Also veda prohits the phallus worship (rg veda). > > > > Can you please quote this verse? > > With best wishes, > Ravi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 When we are in Svaadhishtaana chakra with has a primary attribute of " reason " we like to present collected/accumulated opinionated knowledge that is external to us. We enjoy arguing trying to prove one point over the other. Intellect or logic can not understand THAT so it cannot help. Feeling, belief or Spirit can help us. If we really, truly seriously want to (or better yet have a burning desire to know) about the great unspeakable SivaLinga then one would be lifted up above the strong clutches of this chakra into anaahata ,the chakra for direct cognition (or the chakras above) and you would intuitively know the meaning of Linga to some extent. Because most of us can't do that, including myself, I am giving my opinion about it collected from/influenced by the trilogy of my loving guru's guru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (Gurudeva). My intention is not to argue or convince any one but put things in perspective from the point of a saivate for the benefit of my fellow Saivaites on this forum. Gurudeva says, " The Sivalinga was the first image of Divinity. After it all other icons evolved from mystic visions. We contemplate God Siva as Parasiva when we worship the Sivalinga. Its simple elliptical shape speaks silently of God's unspeakable Absolute Being. " Also from the lexicon of Dancing with Siva we can find that, Sivalinga: " Mark, " " Token " or " Sign of Siva. " The most prevalent emblem of Siva, found in virtually all Siva temples. A rounded, elliptical, aniconic image, usually set on a circular base, or pitha, the Sivalinga is the simplest and most ancient symbol of Siva, especially of Parashiva, God beyond all forms and qualities. The pitha represents Parashakti, the manifesting power of God. Lingas are usually of stone (carved or naturally existing, svayambhu, such as shaped by a swift-flowing river), but may also be of metal, precious gems, crystal, wood, earth or transitory materials such as ice. According to the Karana Agama (verse 6), a transitory Sivalinga may be made of 12 different materials: sand, rice, cooked food, river clay, cow dung, butter, rudraksha seeds, ashes, sandalwood, dharba grass, a flower garland or molasses. Many are the meanings of Linga. Everything that we see is truly a mark or a sign or a pointer or a linga. Our five senses point to things and interpret them as real and make us aware of certain thing. If you know C or C++ you can understand the concept of " pointers " very easily. Similarly SivaLinga is pointer to THAT unspeakable, unimaginable ParamaSiva. But if you have a bad/corrupted pointer then it points to something else and our five senses interpret and make us aware of that something else. What do we think of when we see elliptical (or oval shaped) galaxies swirling in the universe? What do we think of when we study the elliptical human aura? What do we think of when we see the oval shaped " deepam " ? Why ? What do we think of when we hear about US president's white oval office ? Certainly we are not reminded of a male organ when we are aware of these oval shaped objects. Then why are we reminded of a male organ when we are aware of an oval shaped linga? Have we ever considered that there are visible and non-visible beings, inside or outside of us, living their life and spending lots of energy to destroy Saivism? It happened thousands of years ago, its happening now and it would probably happen in the future. Apparently they have succeeded in their effort, because they managed to put a doubt in the minds of such great Srividya or Siva upakasas on this forum. We just need to reprogram our corrupted pointer to point to THAT unspeakable oval pure divine light or that one source from where everything comes and goes or that absolute being beyong form, time and space or that most loving form of Siva the one with crescent moon on his head when we see a Siva Linga. We can easily do that with the grace of our loving mother Gauri (the great sivagnana pradayani). Sivaya namah Shankar , " MSR " <miinalochanii wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote: > >Fertility. Also veda prohits the phallus worship (rg veda). > > > > Can you please quote this verse? > > With best wishes, > Ravi > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 I hate to write this and dont want to be seen as a jerk but some things should not be left to the whims and fancies of people. It helps no -one and such shallow thoughts can be harmful in the long run. , " shankar_mallampalli " <shankar.mallampalli wrote: > > When we are in Svaadhishtaana chakra with has a primary attribute >of " reason " we like to present collected/accumulated opinionated >knowledge that is external to us. We enjoy arguing trying to prove >one point over the other. When we say something especailly related to sAdhana issues like ShaT-chakra sAdhana, they should have some basis in shAstra. For example: If someone tells you if your kundalini is not activated you will never argue or if they say if you are in sahasrAra chakra you argue a lot - How are going to validate this? > > Intellect or logic can not understand THAT so it cannot help. >Feeling, belief or Spirit can help us. Can you tell where AchArya shankara says that feeling, beleif or spirit will help in knowing brahman.h? Or does abhinavagupta or any other AchArya say this? If none said this where is the authrity for this? Please see Ravi's recent post titled ADMIN. I will not say that all the contents of this post are baseless but most of it is new age mumbo-jumbo without any authority. And sadly this has become common. Empty and silly statments like " when all arguments stop you will know " that " or they will know " this " ...are appealing because it is easy and does not require any hard work like spending time studying the shastra-s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 |Though the phallus worship was it seems popular during vedic times, |its worshippers were not allowed to participate in the vedic |worships. Sriram- you should look up Yaska and the more recent Sayana on this topic. Going by what they state (shishnadeva abrahmacharyAh ity arthaH etc) Shishnadeva does not mean Linga. That means for more almost 3 thousand years Hindus have traditionally understood Shishnadeva differently from what you state. I also do not think that we can objectively say anything about the popularity of Shishnadevas from those mantras. Something like a Shivalinga definitely has many facets to it: As you point out it has an imagery shared with the Skambha or world axis. This is a thing shared in the imagery of Nrisimha and Shiva: skambhodbhava mUrti and lingodbhava mUrti. In another sense it is a fertility emblem. It is not as if only one is valid. They all make sense in different contexts. RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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