Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Thanks Sri Sridhar for the Moolam. kolavadanA kusheshayanayanA kokAri maNDita shikhaNDA . sa.ntaptakA~nchanAbhA sandhyAruNa chela sa.nvR^ita nitambA .. 66 .. 66 ) She is Boar faced with eyes like lotus,sporting the Chandra ( 3rd phase ) with a body like the dazzling molten Gold,prettifying a Red garment in Her waist. halamusala shaN^khachakrAN^kushapAshAbhayavara sphurita hastA . kUla.nkaShAnukampA kuN^kumajambAlitastanA bhogA .. 67 .. 67 ) She Carries or clutches in Her hands Shanku, Chakra, Kalappai, Ulakkai,Thuratti, Paasham with Vara and Abhya Mudras, With Her Mercy beyond the shores, wearing the Saffron paste on Her breasts. Unquote : Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional tools of Agriculture and Thuratti ( also in tamil is not understood ). I am not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on this. dhUrtAnAmatidUrA vArtAsheShAvalagna kamanIyA . ArtAlI shubhadAtrI vArtAlI bhavatu vA~nchhitArthAya .. 68 .. 68 ) She is not reachable by the wicked,She is a Beauty with shapely waist beyond description, assists people with grief, the VAARTHAALI ALIAS VAARAHI grant all we desire. With Warm Regards Ganapathy -- Vijyalakshmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 Pranams, I missed this post while studying. Musala is a sort of iron pestle. In telugu we say " rokali banDa " . This was used in earlier days to prepare wheat / rice floor out of the harvested paddy. So, again tantric symbolism comes into play here. What does these plough & pestle indicate here? Plough indicates the " kriya " or action as this is used for ploughing the fields. Ploughing of fields is the Karma and preparing the floor with Pestle is the symbolic representation of " Karma Phala Bhoga " ie., enjoyment of fruits of action. And hence, Varahi or Dandanatha is the Kriya Sakti Swarupini. regs, sriram halamusala shaN^khachakrAN^kushapAshAbhayavara sphurita hastA . kUla.nkaShAnukampA kuN^kumajambAlitastanA bhogA .. 67 .. 67 ) She Carries or clutches in Her hands Shanku, Chakra, Kalappai, Ulakkai,Thuratti, Paasham with Vara and Abhya Mudras, With Her Mercy beyond the shores, wearing the Saffron paste on Her breasts. Unquote : > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional tools of Agriculture and Thuratti ( also in tamil is not understood ). I am not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 Pranams, ****** Thuratti ( also in tamil is not understood ). I am not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on this. ********* This is Ankusa which is used to control the elephant. Hope this reminds you of the LS " krodhAkArAmkushojwalA " . regs, sriram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 In Tamil Thuratti is a shrub also called Aathandai (botanical name is capparis brevispina DC of the Capparacaea family). But how would that fit in this context? On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Venkata Sriram < sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional tools of Agriculture and Thuratti (also in tamil is not understood). I am not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thuratti is a hook used to pull down fruits and vegetables from the trees. So the word " hook' could be used in place of the Tamil word. Yours sincerely, N.Subramanian On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 wrote: > > > In Tamil Thuratti is a shrub also called Aathandai (botanical name is > capparis brevispina DC of the Capparacaea family). But how would that fit > in this context? > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Venkata Sriram < > sriram_sapthasathi <sriram_sapthasathi%40grouply.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional > tools of Agriculture and Thuratti (also in tamil is not understood). I am > not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on > this. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Pranams, ************** halamusala shaN^khachakrAN^kushapAshAbhayavara sphurita hastA . kUla.nkaShAnukampA kuN^kumajambAlitastanA bhogA .. 67 .. *********** In the above dhyana sloka, the description is as follows: hala : plough musala : iron pestle (as described by me) shankha : conch chakra : discuss ankusa : ankusa (self-explained) pasha : noose abhaya : abhaya mudra vara : varada mudra This is the Mahavarahi described above with 8-hands. Since i am ignorant in tamil, which one is Thuratti from above. regs, sriram , Subramanian Natarajan <nadanamani wrote: > > Thuratti is a hook used to pull down fruits and vegetables from the trees. > So the word " hook' could be used in place of the Tamil word. > > Yours sincerely, > N.Subramanian > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 wrote: > > > > > > > In Tamil Thuratti is a shrub also called Aathandai (botanical name is > > capparis brevispina DC of the Capparacaea family). But how would that fit > > in this context? > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Venkata Sriram < > > sriram_sapthasathi <sriram_sapthasathi%40grouply.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional > > tools of Agriculture and Thuratti (also in tamil is not understood). I am > > not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on > > this. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Thuratti for ankusam in tamil is not a functional equivalent. Use of ankusa symbolizes a superior Force or Power that controls elephantine mind or human nature. For eg., refer to Abirami antaati: pani malarppoongkaNaiyum, karuppuch chilaiyum, men paasaankusamum, kaiyil aNaiyum thiripura sundhari.. Here the Mother as Tripurasundari is described as the One who holds in Her hands: arrows of cool flowers, black or hard bow, rope that ties gently, and ankusam Also, the equivalent of Aathandai is thoratti (O sound ) and not Thuratti (U sound). Thoratti and suduthoratti fruits are used raw and in cooked forms; they take in spices after a bit of prolonged marination and thus used to add flavor to morning koozh for early rising farmers and tribal hunters. Also, these are not great herbal medicines but food that is used for keeping up the appetite, maybe a laymen's appetizer ;-). YOu would not find this in city markets but only in country side fairs in semi-dried forms. Considering these two facts, I doubt thuratti (as a hook at the tip of a long pole) can be used in this context. It would do sense to stay with ankusam as a tool used to control elephants. It is said that elephants are afraid of mouse and ankusams - both, ironically, smaller in size to them.. If satiating gluttonous demands of our nature can be a way for salvation, maybe then we can apply thoratti or thuraati as a meaning here ;-) my 2 cents. -gopal ________________________________ Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi Fri, January 22, 2010 8:18:50 AM Re: AD 66 to 68 Pranams, ************ ** halamusala shaN^khachakrAN^ kushapAshAbhayav ara sphurita hastA . kUla.nkaShAnukampA kuN^kumajambAlitast anA bhogA .. 67 .. *********** In the above dhyana sloka, the description is as follows: hala : plough musala : iron pestle (as described by me) shankha : conch chakra : discuss ankusa : ankusa (self-explained) pasha : noose abhaya : abhaya mudra vara : varada mudra This is the Mahavarahi described above with 8-hands. Since i am ignorant in tamil, which one is Thuratti from above. regs, sriram @ .com, Subramanian Natarajan <nadanamani@ ...> wrote: > > Thuratti is a hook used to pull down fruits and vegetables from the trees. > So the word " hook' could be used in place of the Tamil word. > > Yours sincerely, > N.Subramanian > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > In Tamil Thuratti is a shrub also called Aathandai (botanical name is > > capparis brevispina DC of the Capparacaea family). But how would that fit > > in this context? > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Venkata Sriram < > > sriram_sapthasathi@ ... <sriram_sapthasathi %40grouply. com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional > > tools of Agriculture and Thuratti (also in tamil is not understood). I am > > not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on > > this. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 Pranams, Thanks for the tamil clarification. So, in what context Thurati is used here by the translator. Because what i find here is that adhtabhuji mahavarahi (vartali) is having hala, musala, shankha, chakra, ankusa, pasha, abhaya & varada mudras. Parashurama Kalpa & Nityotsava too describe this form of vartali. Why i am particular is because ayudhas make a difference in tantric occultism. Ayudha bija mantras would also change. Food for thought.... regs, sriram , Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath wrote: > > Thuratti for ankusam in tamil is not a functional equivalent. > > Use of ankusa symbolizes a superior Force or Power that controls elephantine mind or > human nature. For eg., refer to Abirami antaati: > pani malarppoongkaNaiyum, karuppuch chilaiyum, > men paasaankusamum, > kaiyil aNaiyum thiripura sundhari.. > > Here the Mother as Tripurasundari is described as the One who holds in Her hands: arrows of cool flowers, black or hard bow, rope that ties gently, and ankusam > > > Also, the equivalent of Aathandai is thoratti (O sound ) and not Thuratti (U sound). Thoratti and suduthoratti fruits > are used raw and in cooked forms; they take in spices after a bit of prolonged marination and thus used to add flavor > to morning koozh for early rising farmers and tribal hunters. Also, these are not great herbal medicines but food that > is used for keeping up the appetite, maybe a laymen's appetizer ;-). > YOu would not find this in city markets but only in country side fairs in semi-dried forms. > > Considering these two facts, I doubt thuratti (as a hook at the tip of a long pole) can be used in this context. > It would do sense to stay with ankusam as a tool used to control elephants. It is said that elephants are afraid of mouse and ankusams - > both, ironically, smaller in size to them.. If satiating gluttonous demands of our nature can be a way for salvation, maybe then we can apply > thoratti or thuraati as a meaning here ;-) > > my 2 cents. > > -gopal > > > > > > > ________________________________ > Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi > > Fri, January 22, 2010 8:18:50 AM > Re: AD 66 to 68 > > > Pranams, > > ************ ** > > halamusala shaN^khachakrAN^ kushapAshAbhayav ara sphurita hastA . > kUla.nkaShAnukampA kuN^kumajambAlitast anA bhogA .. 67 .. > > *********** > > In the above dhyana sloka, the description is as follows: > > hala : plough > musala : iron pestle (as described by me) > shankha : conch > chakra : discuss > ankusa : ankusa (self-explained) > pasha : noose > abhaya : abhaya mudra > vara : varada mudra > > This is the Mahavarahi described above with 8-hands. > > Since i am ignorant in tamil, which one is Thuratti from above. > > regs, > sriram > > @ .com, Subramanian Natarajan <nadanamani@ ...> wrote: > > > > Thuratti is a hook used to pull down fruits and vegetables from the trees. > > So the word " hook' could be used in place of the Tamil word. > > > > Yours sincerely, > > N.Subramanian > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > In Tamil Thuratti is a shrub also called Aathandai (botanical name is > > > capparis brevispina DC of the Capparacaea family). But how would that fit > > > in this context? > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Venkata Sriram < > > > sriram_sapthasathi@ ... <sriram_sapthasathi %40grouply. com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional > > > tools of Agriculture and Thuratti (also in tamil is not understood). I am > > > not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on > > > this. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 As many would know, there are two types of foreign words in tamil (and most Indian languages) that are accepted: tat samam (TS) and tat bhavam(TB) (equivalent and created-from). Some words are used in Tamil (working example here, can apply to any language) directly imported from Sanskrit or other languages. Some other words are imported and then changed to fit the phonetic, linguistic or other reasons. Sometimes many TS and TB words have native words that close to or equal in meaning and application. This is a headache for translators. When you translate " maccha " to tamil from a tantric literature, would you use " meen " ( a native tamil word) or " maccham " - a TS word? MAny translations of sanskrit works into tamil suffer because of , as one of the reasons, overzealousness of the translator to find native equivalents of all the sanskrit words (as though the sanskrit words contaminate the translated content) ignoring the fact that culturally people have already used and are using TS and TB words. I am not saying this was the reason here for this confusion ; but such a mistranslation is so common that one has to go back to sanskrit root words. In the process the spirit and significance of original text is lost. You can find it commonly in the translations of Gita and some upanishads. A classic example is Max Muller and Griffiths translations of vedic sanskrit words. A similar problem here is thuratti and ankusam. Both have wooden trunk; both have metal hook-like in one end. At the other end, there might be a loop or structure for holding and grip. But thuratti should be long, so long that one can reach top of a tree with it and pick mangoes or drumsticks. So it has a hook with curve long enough for these purposes. Ankusam should be short, around a 3/4th of an arms length of an adult man (most mahouts that sit on elephants are men). It should have a sharp edge, a hook-like structure with shorter curve and it's purpose is to poke the elephants in those spots that give them enormous pain. Mahouts use the ankusam to control the elephants. Elephants are conditioned during their training to respond to the sight of ankusams. In common way-of-life, thuratti is used at home and ankusams are used in elephant stables. If She has to use a long thuratti to keep our nature under control, there should be something basically wrong with it that keeps away even Her! How in the world a thuratti and a ankusum can change places for the above applications - I am not sure. But for sure, it would help if translators of any genre, in particular to those working on sanskrit to tamil translations, remember this pothole of selective amnesia, linguistic culture and laymen traditions that define a language, to avoid losing the spirit of the original text during the intricate process of translation. -gopal ________________________________ Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi Sat, January 23, 2010 6:19:58 AM Re: AD 66 to 68 Pranams, Thanks for the tamil clarification. So, in what context Thurati is used here by the translator. Because what i find here is that adhtabhuji mahavarahi (vartali) is having hala, musala, shankha, chakra, ankusa, pasha, abhaya & varada mudras. Parashurama Kalpa & Nityotsava too describe this form of vartali. Why i am particular is because ayudhas make a difference in tantric occultism. Ayudha bija mantras would also change. Food for thought.... regs, sriram @ .com, Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath@ ...> wrote: > > Thuratti for ankusam in tamil is not a functional equivalent. > > Use of ankusa symbolizes a superior Force or Power that controls elephantine mind or > human nature. For eg., refer to Abirami antaati: > pani malarppoongkaNaiyum , karuppuch chilaiyum, > men paasaankusamum, > kaiyil aNaiyum thiripura sundhari.. > > Here the Mother as Tripurasundari is described as the One who holds in Her hands: arrows of cool flowers, black or hard bow, rope that ties gently, and ankusam > > > Also, the equivalent of Aathandai is thoratti (O sound ) and not Thuratti (U sound). Thoratti and suduthoratti fruits > are used raw and in cooked forms; they take in spices after a bit of prolonged marination and thus used to add flavor > to morning koozh for early rising farmers and tribal hunters. Also, these are not great herbal medicines but food that > is used for keeping up the appetite, maybe a laymen's appetizer ;-). > YOu would not find this in city markets but only in country side fairs in semi-dried forms. > > Considering these two facts, I doubt thuratti (as a hook at the tip of a long pole) can be used in this context. > It would do sense to stay with ankusam as a tool used to control elephants. It is said that elephants are afraid of mouse and ankusams - > both, ironically, smaller in size to them.. If satiating gluttonous demands of our nature can be a way for salvation, maybe then we can apply > thoratti or thuraati as a meaning here ;-) > > my 2 cents. > > -gopal > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Venkata Sriram <sriram_sapthasathi > @ .com > Fri, January 22, 2010 8:18:50 AM > Re: AD 66 to 68 > > > Pranams, > > ************ ** > > halamusala shaN^khachakrAN^ kushapAshAbhayav ara sphurita hastA . > kUla.nkaShAnukampA kuN^kumajambAlitast anA bhogA .. 67 .. > > *********** > > In the above dhyana sloka, the description is as follows: > > hala : plough > musala : iron pestle (as described by me) > shankha : conch > chakra : discuss > ankusa : ankusa (self-explained) > pasha : noose > abhaya : abhaya mudra > vara : varada mudra > > This is the Mahavarahi described above with 8-hands. > > Since i am ignorant in tamil, which one is Thuratti from above. > > regs, > sriram > > @ .com, Subramanian Natarajan <nadanamani@ ...> wrote: > > > > Thuratti is a hook used to pull down fruits and vegetables from the trees. > > So the word " hook' could be used in place of the Tamil word. > > > > Yours sincerely, > > N.Subramanian > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > In Tamil Thuratti is a shrub also called Aathandai (botanical name is > > > capparis brevispina DC of the Capparacaea family). But how would that fit > > > in this context? > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Venkata Sriram < > > > sriram_sapthasathi@ ... <sriram_sapthasathi %40grouply. com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kalappai (Plough), Ulakkai are the Tamil words for the traditional > > > tools of Agriculture and Thuratti (also in tamil is not understood). I am > > > not getting quickly the Tamil equivalents in English . Welcome posts on > > > this. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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