Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Why is one born? Because of his past birth. What has his past birth to do with this birth? Because he had done something and the fruit of such an action has not been enjoyed/suffered by him. Therefore he is born now to enjoy and suffer the fruits his actions. One cannot avoid the karmaphala for that would repudiate the karma theory. How does he enjoy and suffer. Through his identification with his body. So if he does not identify with his body then he need not have to suffer? Does he have such a choice? That which makes a choice, namely the mind, is part of his body. It cannot be separated from the body. (See BrihadhaaranyakOpanishad) So are you saying that he has no choice? Yes, he would have no option but to enjoy and suffer his past karma. The idea that he is the body belongs to the mind and the mind cannot exist without that idea. Can the mind be 'educated' not to identify with the body? What for? What use is that mind then for him? Then what does he do to avoid being born and being dead again and again to meaninglessly going through the cycle of enjoyment and suffering? He should not covet the fruits of his actions. How about if he refuses to perform the karma? There automatically he would not gather any fruit of karma. All karmas are painful. Therefore karmas are part of his suffering and he is destined to do them as part of his praarabhdha karma. Thus he cannot avoid performing karma. Such is his destiny. Is there a karma that does not bear fruit? No there is no such barren karmas in this world. Can anyone perform karma without coveting its fruit? Only if the idea sinks in the mind that seeking the fruit brings him back into the world of samsaara where he suffers the thaapathrayam. So if he exhausts his karmaphalas by performing his karmas without seeking their fruits would he be released from being born again? The idea that he can exhaust his karmaphalas accumulated in millions of prior births is simply a stupid notion for such exhaustions can take millions of births. IT SHOULD FIRMLY SINK IN HIS MIND THAT THE KARMAPHALAS CANNOT BE EXHAUSTED. How can he then bring an end to the cycle of inexhaustible births and deaths. By sacrificing the one that identifies him with the body namely the mind. How can it be done? He cannot do it by himself for the mind would not let him do it. He needs help to get rid of it. Such help comes only from a Guru. Sucn Guru has to be destined so the mind cannot resist him. Can he be the author of his destiny? He is always the author of his destiny. By desiring the fruit of karma he ensured his future births. Good karmas bring more enjoyment and less suffering and bad karmas do the opposite. But all karmas exhaust in time. That would take another death and another birth. Since all births involve karma and the karmas bear fruit the only choice is to dedicate those fruits to the Lord. The mind can make that choice if it realizes that it suffers from the thaapathrayam. Would one be attracted to the Lord? The very realization of sufferings brings humility and surrender to the lord. The emanating Grace is explained by our AachaaryaaL in the following stanza of Soundaryalahari. " Avidhyaanaamanthasthimira mihiradhveepanagari jadaanaam chaithanyasthabhakamakaranthasruthijari | dharidhraaNaam chinthaamaNiguNanikaa janmajaladhou nimagnaanaam dhamshtraa muraripuvaraahasya bhavathi || (Soundaryalahari 3) When nishkaamakarmas are performed then the Lord as karmaphala dhaatha destines a Guru for him. Since the Guru is his destiny he will surrender to the Guru without any resistance by his mind. Aum Sri GurubyO namaha Anbu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Respected members, This is a doubt I have for a long time, and have been asking around to many. Sri Anbu's mail triggered the mindset again, and I apologize if I am imposing my ignorance on you all. 1) If the fruits of karma are inevitable and un-escapable, then what is the role of prayers? 2) What is the role of Her Compassion (karuna, daya) , Her Grace (Arul in Tamil as Sri Vallalaar uses it) in mitigating the effects of sanjita and praarabda karma of sincere devotees? 3) What is the purpose of doing anushtaana, tapas and sincere prayer to ward of an affliction or problem or misery by reciting certain mantras, slokas, etc., if the karma fruits are un-eraseable? 4) What should one make of events where saints and siddha purushaas remove the miseries of few lucky ones? 5) If man is the maker of the destiny, can I perform certain karmas now that will remove the effects of past karmas? 6) If a devotee's karma fruits are erased by Her because that devotee had a karma to happen so, isn't it putting limits on how She could act? Then this would mean that She is bound not to act on another devotee who suffers although he/she is equally devoted to Her because this devotee did not enough karma credit to work on.. Is this correct? Can this even be possible for Her, the 'samsaara bandha nirmagna samudharana panditha'? If the learned devotees can explain the relationship between the Her Grace, human yathna and prayathna, and the role of karma in the evolution of the soul in this samsara, I will be grateful to them. My pranaams to whoever has patience to reply. Sincerely, -gopal ________________________________ Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l; ; Akhandabhaaratham Mon, March 1, 2010 5:22:31 AM Karmaadhikaari Why is one born? Because of his past birth. What has his past birth to do with this birth? Because he had done something and the fruit of such an action has not been enjoyed/suffered by him. Therefore he is born now to enjoy and suffer the fruits his actions. One cannot avoid the karmaphala for that would repudiate the karma theory. How does he enjoy and suffer. Through his identification with his body. So if he does not identify with his body then he need not have to suffer? Does he have such a choice? That which makes a choice, namely the mind, is part of his body. It cannot be separated from the body. (See BrihadhaaranyakOpan ishad) So are you saying that he has no choice? Yes, he would have no option but to enjoy and suffer his past karma. The idea that he is the body belongs to the mind and the mind cannot exist without that idea. Can the mind be 'educated' not to identify with the body? What for? What use is that mind then for him? Then what does he do to avoid being born and being dead again and again to meaninglessly going through the cycle of enjoyment and suffering? He should not covet the fruits of his actions. How about if he refuses to perform the karma? There automatically he would not gather any fruit of karma. All karmas are painful. Therefore karmas are part of his suffering and he is destined to do them as part of his praarabhdha karma. Thus he cannot avoid performing karma. Such is his destiny. Is there a karma that does not bear fruit? No there is no such barren karmas in this world. Can anyone perform karma without coveting its fruit? Only if the idea sinks in the mind that seeking the fruit brings him back into the world of samsaara where he suffers the thaapathrayam. So if he exhausts his karmaphalas by performing his karmas without seeking their fruits would he be released from being born again? The idea that he can exhaust his karmaphalas accumulated in millions of prior births is simply a stupid notion for such exhaustions can take millions of births. IT SHOULD FIRMLY SINK IN HIS MIND THAT THE KARMAPHALAS CANNOT BE EXHAUSTED. How can he then bring an end to the cycle of inexhaustible births and deaths. By sacrificing the one that identifies him with the body namely the mind. How can it be done? He cannot do it by himself for the mind would not let him do it. He needs help to get rid of it. Such help comes only from a Guru. Sucn Guru has to be destined so the mind cannot resist him. Can he be the author of his destiny? He is always the author of his destiny. By desiring the fruit of karma he ensured his future births. Good karmas bring more enjoyment and less suffering and bad karmas do the opposite. But all karmas exhaust in time. That would take another death and another birth. Since all births involve karma and the karmas bear fruit the only choice is to dedicate those fruits to the Lord. The mind can make that choice if it realizes that it suffers from the thaapathrayam. Would one be attracted to the Lord? The very realization of sufferings brings humility and surrender to the lord. The emanating Grace is explained by our AachaaryaaL in the following stanza of Soundaryalahari. " Avidhyaanaamanthas thimira mihiradhveepanagari jadaanaam chaithanyasthabhaka makaranthasruthi jari | dharidhraaNaam chinthaamaNiguNanik aa janmajaladhou nimagnaanaam dhamshtraa muraripuvaraahasya bhavathi || (Soundaryalahari 3) When nishkaamakarmas are performed then the Lord as karmaphala dhaatha destines a Guru for him. Since the Guru is his destiny he will surrender to the Guru without any resistance by his mind. Aum Sri GurubyO namaha Anbu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Dear Brother, As I understand and experience, the grace of the Guru is such that it can eradicate the karma either good or bad from our stula, sukshma and karana sarira. First the Guru transmits his energy to the karana sareera of the disciple, which comes down to the sukshma sareera and then perculates into the stula sarira. What happens then? The entire karma or bhog as we call it, comes out of the devotees mind during the sleep and the experience in the dream is such that everything seem to be really happenning. Some times the experience is freightening and the person gets up alarmed. This is because any karma is related to the body and mind (stula and sukshma) and one has to undergo the action or reaction at all costs. But the Guru being avyaja karunamurthy, he ensures that the disciple enjoys the good or bad karma and experiences the results too, thereby removing the cause and action from the Karana sareera. The purpose of doing the anushtanam and tapas is to make our body and mind to undergo the bhog or the karma and vikarma. Whatever karmas you perform now certainly has a reaction may be desired or not. You cannot blame the divine mother or guru for that matter, because she is always transmitting the divine energy and we are only not fit enough to receive the same. Therefore one has to go beyond the body and mind experience to the level karana sareera. The best results are obtained when one meditates on the living form of the Guru in his karana sareera (guru-parama guru and parameshti guru) and try to merge his soul with the karana sareera of the guru who is nothing but the parameshti guru, who is already merged. Once this is understood and achieved through intense practice then the devotees soul merges beyond the karana sareera that is Parapara guru and finally to anandhakya guru. Instead of worrying about karma and action/reaction, one should have good faith and merge with the Guru where the existence of the stula and sukshma sareeras are devoid of any energy either negative or positive and one " to become the being " and finally being and becoming. Methods are too many and it depends upon one's guru's capacity.Devotees are free to shelve the guru who is not in a position to lift the disciple and seek another guru. Regards and wishing every one " Anandaaikyam " S.SHANGARANARAYANAN gopal_gopinath Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:34:20 -0800 Re: Karmaadhikaari Respected members, This is a doubt I have for a long time, and have been asking around to many. Sri Anbu's mail triggered the mindset again, and I apologize if I am imposing my ignorance on you all. 1) If the fruits of karma are inevitable and un-escapable, then what is the role of prayers? 2) What is the role of Her Compassion (karuna, daya) , Her Grace (Arul in Tamil as Sri Vallalaar uses it) in mitigating the effects of sanjita and praarabda karma of sincere devotees? 3) What is the purpose of doing anushtaana, tapas and sincere prayer to ward of an affliction or problem or misery by reciting certain mantras, slokas, etc., if the karma fruits are un-eraseable? 4) What should one make of events where saints and siddha purushaas remove the miseries of few lucky ones? 5) If man is the maker of the destiny, can I perform certain karmas now that will remove the effects of past karmas? 6) If a devotee's karma fruits are erased by Her because that devotee had a karma to happen so, isn't it putting limits on how She could act? Then this would mean that She is bound not to act on another devotee who suffers although he/she is equally devoted to Her because this devotee did not enough karma credit to work on.. Is this correct? Can this even be possible for Her, the 'samsaara bandha nirmagna samudharana panditha'? If the learned devotees can explain the relationship between the Her Grace, human yathna and prayathna, and the role of karma in the evolution of the soul in this samsara, I will be grateful to them. My pranaams to whoever has patience to reply. Sincerely, -gopal ________________________________ Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l; ; Akhandabhaaratham Mon, March 1, 2010 5:22:31 AM Karmaadhikaari Why is one born? Because of his past birth. What has his past birth to do with this birth? Because he had done something and the fruit of such an action has not been enjoyed/suffered by him. Therefore he is born now to enjoy and suffer the fruits his actions. One cannot avoid the karmaphala for that would repudiate the karma theory. How does he enjoy and suffer. Through his identification with his body. So if he does not identify with his body then he need not have to suffer? Does he have such a choice? That which makes a choice, namely the mind, is part of his body. It cannot be separated from the body. (See BrihadhaaranyakOpan ishad) So are you saying that he has no choice? Yes, he would have no option but to enjoy and suffer his past karma. The idea that he is the body belongs to the mind and the mind cannot exist without that idea. Can the mind be 'educated' not to identify with the body? What for? What use is that mind then for him? Then what does he do to avoid being born and being dead again and again to meaninglessly going through the cycle of enjoyment and suffering? He should not covet the fruits of his actions. How about if he refuses to perform the karma? There automatically he would not gather any fruit of karma. All karmas are painful. Therefore karmas are part of his suffering and he is destined to do them as part of his praarabhdha karma. Thus he cannot avoid performing karma. Such is his destiny. Is there a karma that does not bear fruit? No there is no such barren karmas in this world. Can anyone perform karma without coveting its fruit? Only if the idea sinks in the mind that seeking the fruit brings him back into the world of samsaara where he suffers the thaapathrayam. So if he exhausts his karmaphalas by performing his karmas without seeking their fruits would he be released from being born again? The idea that he can exhaust his karmaphalas accumulated in millions of prior births is simply a stupid notion for such exhaustions can take millions of births. IT SHOULD FIRMLY SINK IN HIS MIND THAT THE KARMAPHALAS CANNOT BE EXHAUSTED. How can he then bring an end to the cycle of inexhaustible births and deaths. By sacrificing the one that identifies him with the body namely the mind. How can it be done? He cannot do it by himself for the mind would not let him do it. He needs help to get rid of it. Such help comes only from a Guru. Sucn Guru has to be destined so the mind cannot resist him. Can he be the author of his destiny? He is always the author of his destiny. By desiring the fruit of karma he ensured his future births. Good karmas bring more enjoyment and less suffering and bad karmas do the opposite. But all karmas exhaust in time. That would take another death and another birth. Since all births involve karma and the karmas bear fruit the only choice is to dedicate those fruits to the Lord. The mind can make that choice if it realizes that it suffers from the thaapathrayam. Would one be attracted to the Lord? The very realization of sufferings brings humility and surrender to the lord. The emanating Grace is explained by our AachaaryaaL in the following stanza of Soundaryalahari. " Avidhyaanaamanthas thimira mihiradhveepanagari jadaanaam chaithanyasthabhaka makaranthasruthi jari | dharidhraaNaam chinthaamaNiguNanik aa janmajaladhou nimagnaanaam dhamshtraa muraripuvaraahasya bhavathi || (Soundaryalahari 3) When nishkaamakarmas are performed then the Lord as karmaphala dhaatha destines a Guru for him. Since the Guru is his destiny he will surrender to the Guru without any resistance by his mind. Aum Sri GurubyO namaha Anbu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Dear Sri Gopinath, My answers are as below: 1. Prayer is a form of good karma. It will not take away the fruit of another karma but bring in a new fruit. 2. Karuna gives the ability in one to withstand in such a way that the effect of karma is felt minimized. No one knows how hard will it be on him of the karmaphala if it be the fruit of a bad karma. That is no one can give a judgement on the severity of a punishment until it was experienced. 3. This question is related to No. 2. 4. That also should be seen as a fruit of karma. 5. If you know what they are. Does anyone know the future? 6. By Her Grace She breaks the bondage of Samsaara. That person will never enter samsaara again. This shows how important is the surrender at Her lotus feet. On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinathwrote: > > > Respected members, > > This is a doubt I have for a long time, and have been asking around to > many. > > Sri Anbu's mail triggered the mindset again, and I apologize if I am > imposing my ignorance on you all. > > 1) If the fruits of karma are inevitable and un-escapable, then what is the > role of prayers? > 2) What is the role of Her Compassion (karuna, daya) , Her Grace (Arul in > Tamil as Sri Vallalaar uses it) in mitigating the effects of > sanjita and praarabda karma of sincere devotees? > 3) What is the purpose of doing anushtaana, tapas and sincere prayer to > ward of an affliction or problem or misery by reciting certain mantras, > slokas, etc., if > the karma fruits are un-eraseable? > 4) What should one make of events where saints and siddha purushaas remove > the miseries of few lucky ones? > 5) If man is the maker of the destiny, can I perform certain karmas now > that will remove the effects of past karmas? > 6) If a devotee's karma fruits are erased by Her because that devotee had a > karma to happen so, isn't it putting limits on how She could act? Then this > would mean that She is bound not to act on another devotee who suffers > although he/she is equally devoted to Her because this devotee did not > enough karma credit to work on.. Is this correct? Can this even be possible > for Her, the 'samsaara bandha nirmagna samudharana panditha'? > > If the learned devotees can explain the relationship between the Her Grace, > human yathna and prayathna, and the role of karma in the evolution of the > soul in this samsara, > I will be grateful to them. My pranaams to whoever has patience to reply. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Namasthe, I am just trying to explain what I understood, if something is wrong or everything is wrong please ignore my message. No one has told that by doing prayers we won't be facing what we have done in the past but rather face them in a way that is not soo troublesome. And also by doing prayers or reciting mantras we are invoking the gnana, which tells us what is good and what is bad karma (or desire) . One who is showered by Sri Maata's Karuna or daya, he knows that this body is not he(atma) and that he(atma) is not the one suffering . By reciting any mantra or doing any anustana you cann't completely get away from the suffering you are supposed to face. Ex:- Today if I was supposed to be in the hospital meeting an accident with my leg fractured and loosing lot of blood, but my anustana may come in between what I was supposed to suffer by making my leg cut(a small scar) in an accident and admiting in the hospital but discharged after a day or so. Like Maha mrutyunjaya mantram doesn't ward off one's death but it makes it easy .. Hope I am clear. One's Life is full of miseries, The saints and sadhus has taken off few of the miseries not completely everything. Birth , Life and Death are the biggest miseries one cann't remove them. One WHO CAN END these miseries is the SADGURU HIMSELF CAUSE HE PUTS AN END TO THIS CYCLE OF BIRTH AND DEATH When you say Karma then you are again falling into the cycle of Life and Death. You can obtain Gnana by which you won't be bound by the karma phala which is supposed to come by the actions you are performing now, but for the past karma you have to face the phala. One's karma phala is never erased by SRIMATA, If you think that she does erase the karma phala then why did sankaracharya suffer or Ramana maharshi suffer or Ramakrishna paramahamsa suffer?(their bodies only suffered they stood as aatma) They had to face what they had done in their previous births that's why they had suffered. " Karma Tat Jadam " Karma by itself is jadam,dead lifeless entitie. " ishvaraarpitam na ichaya kritam, chitta shodakam mukti sadhakam " we have to do karma but that one should be dedicated to God, which leads to purification of mind and this is a helps for liberation. Hope I am clear. Sri " vaneevaa harmyeva samakara nipatho himakaraha " , Gopal Gopinath <gopal_gopinath wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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