WAS Shri Ram so ARROGANT that, he disowned Sita, inspite of Agni Pariksha?

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

The Ramayana has many versions. Many bordering cultures also have the story, and

all of them are slightly different. The Thai version does not have this test at

all.

 

The story reflects the culture's view of women.  Women are still set on fire

for lack of dowry, and farmers still commit suicide when they can't pay the

money lender.

 

The wife is wanted for her money that she may or may not have. People still

honor debt even if the one lending it is dishonest.

 

Read the Thai version, the Indonesian version, and I think the Burmese also have

a version.

 

Peace,

Shankari

 

--- On Sun, 2/7/10, Kulbhushan Singhal <kbs140 wrote:

MESSAGE FOR DISCUSSION:

 

" WAS Shri Ram so ARROGANT that, after becoming king, he disowned

 

Sita, inspite of Agni Pariksha? "

[Guest guest]

Namaskar,

 

I happen to agree with this. One of the Buddhists who own the local Thai

restaurant read a completely different story as to how Ganesha received his

elephant head, for instance. The story I am most familiar with, one taught

by people (at least) in South India, really contrasts with it.

 

Cultures have an influence on how a story is told.

 

Sincerely,

Arya/Christina

 

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Shankari Kali <shankari_kaliwrote:

 

>

>

> Namaste:

>

> The Ramayana has many versions. Many bordering cultures also have the

> story, and all of them are slightly different. The Thai version does not

> have this test at all.

>

> The story reflects the culture's view of women. Women are still set on

> fire for lack of dowry, and farmers still commit suicide when they can't pay

> the money lender.

>

> The wife is wanted for her money that she may or may not have. People still

> honor debt even if the one lending it is dishonest.

>

> Read the Thai version, the Indonesian version, and I think the Burmese also

> have a version.

>

> Peace,

> Shankari

>

> --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Kulbhushan Singhal <kbs140<kbs140%40>>

> wrote:

> MESSAGE FOR DISCUSSION:

>

> " WAS Shri Ram so ARROGANT that, after becoming king, he disowned

>

> Sita, inspite of Agni Pariksha? "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Its a little easier to swallow if you look from a Yogi's perspective.

 

 

If Rama is consciousness, and Sita is nature, then abandoning her is like taking

a vow of renunciation.

Nature nourishes good and bad alike, yet is always pure.

Sad to think that the story might justify bad behaviour in people, but all

philosophies have a certain " wiggle room " for the bad guys.

The Rama Gita follows up on her abandonment with Lakshman asking Rama why life

is so unfair.

It is profoundly informative of Vedanta.

 

OM

 

 

________________________________

Shankari Kali <shankari_kali

 

Wed, February 10, 2010 5:00:34 PM

Re: WAS Shri Ram so ARROGANT that, he disowned Sita,

inspite of Agni Pariksha?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I don't really have an easier time with it, even from this perspective.

 

The notion of the woman as nature and nature as something to draw away from for

purity is not just Eastern and I don't find it more tasteful.

 

The Abramic tradition holds similar notions and I am not attracted to them

there.

 

It's not that I feel that that tradition shouldn't exist or doesn't have value,

it's just not for me.

 

So, looking at this from a Shakti tradition point of view I still struggle to

see the value in it - except at the end where the Goddess abandons the king once

he has his kingdom and has returned to that self absorbed, grasping and reactive

state where he no longer sees the Goddess for who She is.

 

In that state it seems like the alternative version to the Devi Mahahtmya.

Instead of gaining Divine insight and therefore regaining his kingdom, in this

story the king regains his kingdom but earthly clamors soon rob him of his

spiritual balance to the point he would no longer see the Goddess in Her true

light. Then, although She easily passes his " test " he fails the test and She

deserts him.

 

I don't have my books with me on the road, but it reminds me of that portion of

the Mahatmaya where the asura demands that the Goddess, Herself appear before

him or be dragged by Her hair. Of course, afterwards, he is slain in battle with

Her.

 

It's one of my favorite parts.

 

Probably because I, like everyone else, have had the experience of being treated

with contempt or scorn and the image of the Goddess answering this challenge

playfully and then defeating the ignorant Asura with Her might is so compelling.

 

Having Her sadly leave Her beloved king is a sadder image, but probably more

true. There are times when we must leave people behind, people that we love, not

slay evil enemies, but simply allow people the dignity to make their own choices

and their own mistakes.

 

Namaste,

 

pr

 

 

 

, Jason Frost <frostdancer2000 wrote:

>

> Its a little easier to swallow if you look from a Yogi's perspective.

>

>

> If Rama is consciousness, and Sita is nature, then abandoning her is like

taking a vow of renunciation.

> Nature nourishes good and bad alike, yet is always pure.

> Sad to think that the story might justify bad behaviour in people, but all

philosophies have a certain " wiggle room " for the bad guys.

> The Rama Gita follows up on her abandonment with Lakshman asking Rama why life

is so unfair.

> It is profoundly informative of Vedanta.

>

> OM

>

>

> ________________________________

> Shankari Kali <shankari_kali

>

> Wed, February 10, 2010 5:00:34 PM

> Re: WAS Shri Ram so ARROGANT that, he disowned Sita,

inspite of Agni Pariksha?

>

>  

>

[Guest guest]

Prainbow, i second your comments. It's common to see people defend

the indefensible, but even putting positive spin on such acts, they

tend to forget that such stories are regularly used to prop up

regressive patriarchal customs. However, there are some other

interpretations in Indian tradition. Quite a while ago, Devi Bhakta

(i think) posted this commentary that shows some folk perspectives:

 

Reinterpreting the Ramayana - 11-03-2006, by Deepti Priya Mehrotra,

in " The Rising Nepal, " Nov 3, 2006

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/shakti-sadhana/427641-reinterpreting-ramayana\

..html

 

>I don't really have an easier time with it, even from this perspective.

>

>The notion of the woman as nature and nature as something to draw

>away from for purity is not just Eastern and I don't find it more

>tasteful.

>

>The Abramic tradition holds similar notions and I am not attracted

>to them there.

>

>It's not that I feel that that tradition shouldn't exist or doesn't

>have value, it's just not for me.

>

>So, looking at this from a Shakti tradition point of view I still

>struggle to see the value in it - except at the end where the

>Goddess abandons the king once he has his kingdom and has returned

>to that self absorbed, grasping and reactive state where he no

>longer sees the Goddess for who She is.

>

>In that state it seems like the alternative version to the Devi

>Mahahtmya. Instead of gaining Divine insight and therefore regaining

>his kingdom, in this story the king regains his kingdom but earthly

>clamors soon rob him of his spiritual balance to the point he would

>no longer see the Goddess in Her true light. Then, although She

>easily passes his " test " he fails the test and She deserts him.

>

>I don't have my books with me on the road, but it reminds me of that

>portion of the Mahatmaya where the asura demands that the Goddess,

>Herself appear before him or be dragged by Her hair. Of course,

>afterwards, he is slain in battle with Her.

>

>It's one of my favorite parts.

>

>Probably because I, like everyone else, have had the experience of

>being treated with contempt or scorn and the image of the Goddess

>answering this challenge playfully and then defeating the ignorant

>Asura with Her might is so compelling.

>

>Having Her sadly leave Her beloved king is a sadder image, but

>probably more true. There are times when we must leave people

>behind, people that we love, not slay evil enemies, but simply allow

>people the dignity to make their own choices and their own mistakes.

 

 

--

Max Dashu

Suppressed Histories Archives: Real women, global vision

http://www.suppressedhistories.net

 

Sacra Vulva, new poster:

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/sacravulva.html

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you want to go totally hog-wild for another feminist perspective.

from an American film-maker but with a wonderful Greek chorus of Indian

commentators animated as Balinese shadow puppets, or if you just want to

see a great film that has its own very contemporary but still loving

take on the story--you can watch the animated film " Sita Sings the

Blues " in which Sita expresses herself in 1920s torch songs. The BBC says:

 

> Sita Sings the Blues is an interpretation of the ancient Indian epic

> Ramayana. It tells the story of the warrior prince Rama and his

> relationship with his wife Sita, who he rejects, breaking her heart.

> The film's American animator Nina Paley could identify because she was

> dumped by her husband.

>

> " The film is semi auto-biographical, " she admits. " I folded in my own

> story of my marriage breaking apart. And what I do is occasionally cut

> from these fantasy scenes of fantasy ancient India to my own modern

> story. "

>

> The contemporary tale of Nina's disintegrating marriage is just one of

> three stories in the film. In addition there's the telling of the epic

> itself, as well as commentary from a group of three shadow puppets.

> But the most unusual aspect of the film is interspersing the

> storytelling with the Hindu goddess Sita singing the blues.

>

> The vocals come from the 1920's American Jazz artist Annette Hanshaw.

> Paley included those songs because the lyrics and the sadness

> expressed resonated with her own pain.

>

> " I was going through a heartbreak. This combination of the songs,

> which were torch songs, was very sad. Also Annette Hanshaw's voice,

> which was just so pure and vulnerable and clear. "

>

> But not everyone warms to the idea of bringing American jazz vocals to

> a cherished ancient epic. In India some critics have charged that

> Paley is denigrating a revered work.

>

> " They say that I'm making a mockery of this and some of them say that

> I'm a Christian woman who hates Hindus, " says Paley. " I'm not

> Christian and I love Hindus. I think that if they actually see the

> film they'll understand much better that I do have reverence for the

> Ramayana. "

>

> But can Paley, as a westerner, get this very India story right?

>

> " Yes it's Indian, but its also Malaysian and Thai and Cambodian and

> Indonesian. So even within India there is no single Ramayana. There

> are all kinds of interpretations of the Ramayana. There's lots of

> controversy over the Ramayana already. I'm sort of jumping into it. "

The nice thing is that it was released through the Creative Commons

license and you can download it legally; go to

http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/watch.html

[Guest guest]

Reply to all comments:

 

RESPECTED SIRs,

 

The question, however, still remains to be answered is:

 

 

Was it possible for Shri Ram to disown Sita, as King, without rejecting

the result of Agni Pariksha?

 

 

THEN, why do we blame Shri Ram for Agni Pariksha of Sita, when he could

not have disowned Sita, after becoming King, without rejecting the

result of Agni Pariksha?

 

 

Incase your opinion is that Sita, could not have been disowned, without

rejecting the result of Agni Pariksha, then LET US DO SOMETHING FOR

CORRECTING THIS ATTITUDE OF INDIAN SOCIETY.

 

 

Remember sincere efforts always bear fruits.

 

 

 

Please respond,

 

Regards

 

Kulbhushan

[Guest guest]

Max,

 

That was great.

 

 

I especially love this perspective:

 

" The 'Iravataram', written in Tamil by Kampan in the 12th century AD,

is a highly popular version of the Rama-Sita story. In it, Sita's

anguish and anger during the fire-ordeal to prove her purity

(agnipareeksha) is vividly depicted. As she approaches the fire, the

whole world goes into crisis. The fire is scorched by her burning

faithfulness, and Agni lifts her, saying to Rama, " Have you abandoned

Dharma [the religious way]? Will rain fall, will the earth still bear

its burden without splitting in two? Or can the Universe survive if

She becomes enraged? If She utters a curse, even Brahma on his lotus

will die. " ... "

 

For me,that represents my understanding of the Shakta perspective, that the

Goddess represents the spiritual way, when we seek Her we are seeking the best

part of ourselves. When we reject Her we are rejecting our own spiritual life.

 

There are many reasons that we reject the spiritual life, but peer pressure is

one of them, the desire for popularity is another.

 

This is like the guilt that we rightly feel when our classmates pick on an

unattractive student and we don't object, or worse, join in. Our truest selves

know that it is wrong but there is so much pressure just to accept and go along.

 

Jai maa,

 

pr

 

 

 

, Max Dashu <maxdashu wrote:

>

> Prainbow, i second your comments. It's common to see people defend

> the indefensible, but even putting positive spin on such acts, they

> tend to forget that such stories are regularly used to prop up

> regressive patriarchal customs. However, there are some other

> interpretations in Indian tradition. Quite a while ago, Devi Bhakta

> (i think) posted this commentary that shows some folk perspectives:

>

> Reinterpreting the Ramayana - 11-03-2006, by Deepti Priya Mehrotra,

> in " The Rising Nepal, " Nov 3, 2006

>

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/shakti-sadhana/427641-reinterpreting-ramayana\

..html

>

> >I don't really have an easier time with it, even from this perspective.

> >

> >The notion of the woman as nature and nature as something to draw

> >away from for purity is not just Eastern and I don't find it more

> >tasteful.

> >

> >The Abramic tradition holds similar notions and I am not attracted

> >to them there.

> >

> >It's not that I feel that that tradition shouldn't exist or doesn't

> >have value, it's just not for me.

> >

> >So, looking at this from a Shakti tradition point of view I still

> >struggle to see the value in it - except at the end where the

> >Goddess abandons the king once he has his kingdom and has returned

> >to that self absorbed, grasping and reactive state where he no

> >longer sees the Goddess for who She is.

> >

> >In that state it seems like the alternative version to the Devi

> >Mahahtmya. Instead of gaining Divine insight and therefore regaining

> >his kingdom, in this story the king regains his kingdom but earthly

> >clamors soon rob him of his spiritual balance to the point he would

> >no longer see the Goddess in Her true light. Then, although She

> >easily passes his " test " he fails the test and She deserts him.

> >

> >I don't have my books with me on the road, but it reminds me of that

> >portion of the Mahatmaya where the asura demands that the Goddess,

> >Herself appear before him or be dragged by Her hair. Of course,

> >afterwards, he is slain in battle with Her.

> >

> >It's one of my favorite parts.

> >

> >Probably because I, like everyone else, have had the experience of

> >being treated with contempt or scorn and the image of the Goddess

> >answering this challenge playfully and then defeating the ignorant

> >Asura with Her might is so compelling.

> >

> >Having Her sadly leave Her beloved king is a sadder image, but

> >probably more true. There are times when we must leave people

> >behind, people that we love, not slay evil enemies, but simply allow

> >people the dignity to make their own choices and their own mistakes.

>

>

> --

> Max Dashu

> Suppressed Histories Archives: Real women, global vision

> http://www.suppressedhistories.net

>

> Sacra Vulva, new poster:

> http://www.suppressedhistories.net/sacravulva.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaskar,

 

I am familiar with the variation of the Ramayana where Rama abandons Sita

regardless of Agni Pareeksha. This is actually a perspective I learned in

my South Asian Culture class from a native from South India...which, in

truth, was pretty much news to me. Moreover, I know each telling of the

story is different and I actually politely added an example in class (such

as the Thai version of the text). However...

 

Like already pointed out, there is variations of the story. Just like there

is a story about Jesus' infancy narrative when he was acting no better than

a spoiled brat in the gospel of Thomas (something that never made it to the

canonical gospels of the Bible). Some more patriarch-minded individuals in

Hinduism may use the less pleasant version of the Ramayana story as

justification to oppress women...but I think even Lord Rama made warned

about such folk.

 

" Never follow a brahmin who interprets Holy Texts for his own personal

benefits. "

 

(Side note: this is not me bashing brahmins, just pointing out that Lord

Rama warned against following the very few who do this sort of thing. Not

picking on brahmins here!)

 

So, regardless of which story one would like to endorse, I think this

particular line in the Ramayana speaks volumes about those who take sacred

texts literally to the point of disregarding the well-being of society.

Even if these things happened historically, all societies have gone through

a period of stratification, whether for better or worse. I am not

justifying how the text was written one way or another, but I do think it

might serve our best interest to take the entire picture into account or we

will lose the spirit of them.

 

Jai Maa!

 

Sincerely,

Arya/Christina

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:24 AM, prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

 

>

>

> Max,

>

[Guest guest]

The CD is now available, for fans of the Nina Paley version.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/sitasingstheblues

 

, Michael Steinberg <mlstein wrote:

>

> If you want to go totally hog-wild for another feminist perspective.

> from an American film-maker but with a wonderful Greek chorus of Indian

> commentators animated as Balinese shadow puppets, or if you just want to

> see a great film that has its own very contemporary but still loving

> take on the story--you can watch the animated film " Sita Sings the

> Blues " in which Sita expresses herself in 1920s torch songs. The BBC says:

>

> > Sita Sings the Blues is an interpretation of the ancient Indian epic

> > Ramayana. [....]

> http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/watch.html

>