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Critique of HAF article on the 'Theft of Yoga'

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Namaste, one and all.

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\

_twenty_million_people_in.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl

 

There are some assumptions in this article which create false assumptions.

 

 

The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a particular

dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further " Hinduism. "

 

 

>Arrayed in linear

> patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as a

> mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures:

 

 

Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures.

 

 

> It would seem that yoga's

> mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of

> dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion.

 

The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan

civilization, pre-dates Hinduism.

 

Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a

misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a united,

single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and

beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma.

 

 

 

> Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing,

> self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern,

> mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu

> origins.

 

Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui, acupuncture,

cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many other scientific

and spiritual practices. However they all have sources that pre-date Hinduism.

 

 

> It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain

> that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and

> polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings

> lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises

> millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy

> in which they can take pride.

 

 

The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion and world

history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and ranting

religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of mass culture.

They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully suggest that your

foundation would be better served by helping Americans learn the truth of Indian

history and religions.

 

 

 

>

> Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt

> intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the

> facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and

> others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of

> crass commercialism.

 

 

Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with

similarities.

 

As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the altar of

crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where there are

drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where preachers

give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will donation, " and

you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the Jordan or a crystal with

the Lord's Prayer etched on it.

 

> The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes

> this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly:

>

>

> " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a

> misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries...The

> techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other

> world religions. "

 

 

I would consider this accurate.

 

 

> So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is

> now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga

> Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga was

INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this is not

true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual practices that were

often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu traditions are far older

than the Sanatana Dharma.

 

 

> These

> deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other religions

> may as well too!

 

Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice of Yoga

was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma, just as the

system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by those practicing

acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we invented it. " It is

simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and adapt die out.

 

 

 

>Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this

> measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and

> reincarnation--the very foundations of Hindu philosophy--are only

> ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own.

 

And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were practiced

before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian culture, and the

magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took those concepts and

expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of " Eternal Law " (the exact

English translation of Sanatana Dharma).

 

 

> The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's

> Board) released a position paper

> on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's

> appropriation,

 

As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans improve

their educational system especially when it comes to world history and

comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as well

complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the tides of the

ocean with nothing but a bucket.

 

 

> but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood.

> Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of

> yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one

> part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an

> eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or

> salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of

> yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient.

> Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques

> will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility--even help

> children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on

> holistic healing and wellness.

 

 

I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your foundation focus

on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than complaining about the

tides.

 

 

>

> But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga

> will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane

> material world and put one on the path of self-realization--that each

> individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold

> on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits the

> arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its

> own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of

> affiliation.

 

 

Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West. In

Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I agree that

Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana Dharma, but

really, you can't complain about that while making denunciations of other

religions and indicate your own ignorance.

 

Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy.

 

 

> Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of

> their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning

> more clients for the yoga studio down the street.

 

 

And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not simply

spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and egotistically

attached to claiming its origin?

 

Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may help

you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning.

 

Namaste!

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Om Namah Shivaya

 

Sri Matre Namaha

 

Its very interesting reading the squabble of these two great souls! How much

time and energy is spent here.

 

Hey guys! couple of anulom vilom and bhastrika pranayama should help you

both. What you are doing here is not leading to any yoga as there is going

to be much divide, if this attitude continues.

 

Were you there when the Yoga philosophy originated? Enlightened Sanadana

Dharma says: yes you were- as your soul is eternal. But are you in a

position to see where you were in your birth no. X when the philosophy was

evolving? SDs say through yoga, you can see past, present and future - as

Yoga is Union and once this individual soul unites and is in unison with the

divine soul, time is transcended.

Now, you come to that stage and say with authenticity when yoga evolved, we

will accept pre-harappan or post-harappan times. Otherwise, this discussion

seems only academic.

 

But, all said and done, it is common knowledge that while you can assign

dates for origin of Christianity or Islam, no one could exactly date this

magnificent Hinduism aka Sanadhana Dharma. When you agree that yoga,

meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, martial arts, feng shui, acupuncture,

cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many other

scientific and spiritual practices originated in India, why don't you also

see that only Sanadhana Dharmis existed at that time? Let American Yoga

Association also accept this instead of saying contrary to " common belief " .

 

While the cycle of life is Kama, Artha, Dharma & Moksha, yoga studios aim at

Artha aspect- they do not mind calling Yoga Asanasa as Yoga and commercially

exploit it. So, resting on SD, we have to agree that this is also His will.

 

So, lets do some yoga...........asanas..........not

me............mediatation.........yes............pranayama..........yes.........\

....tantra...........yes...........bliss...........yes.......yes.....

Yoga.........Hey I am with him.......I am in him.. ..........Hey........I am

Him............So I can see some old sadhus ...........telling about

Yoga..........is it pre or post harappan....

Pranam!

 

 

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don wrote:

 

>

>

> Namaste, one and all.

>

>

>

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\

_twenty_million_people_in.html

> or

> http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl

>

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Share on other sites

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HI there,

I thought it would be appropriate to study Naasadiya Suktam of Rig Veda since

there were some interesting theories and notions about origin of things such as

yoga, rajayoga, patanjali, sanatana dharma, harappan age etc., all of which go

much above my head.

 

I can make an interesting observation here. Patanjali yoga sutras were taught to

me in the traditional manner by my guru who was quite ignorant of what the

western world thinks of these things. You see he had no english Education; but

purely the traditional one.

 

A translation of the Nâsadiya-Sukta, Rg-Veda, X. 129. by svami Vivekananda

Existence was not then, nor non-existence,

The world was not, the sky beyond was neither.

What covered the mist? Of whom was that?

What was in the depths of darkness thick?

Death was not then, nor immortality,

The night was neither separate from day,

But motionless did That vibrate

Alone, with Its own glory one —

Beyond That nothing did exist.

At first in darkness hidden darkness lay,

Undistinguished as one mass of water,

Then That which lay in void thus covered

A glory did put forth by Tapah!

 

First desire rose, the primal seed of mind,

(The sages have seen all this in their hearts

Sifting existence from non-existence.)

Its rays above, below and sideways spread.

Creative then became the glory,

With self-sustaining principle below.

And Creative Energy above.

Who knew the way? Who there declared

Whence this arose? Projection whence?

For after this projection came the gods.

Who therefore knew indeed, came out this whence?

This projection whence arose,

Whether held or whether not,

He the ruler in the supreme sky, of this

He, O Sharman! knows, or knows not He perchance!

 

JR

 

 

________________________________

Ravi Iyer <iyerlaw

 

Fri, April 23, 2010 4:22:05 AM

Re: Critique of HAF article on the 'Theft of Yoga'

 

 

Om Namah Shivaya

 

Sri Matre Namaha

 

Its very interesting reading the squabble of these two great souls! How much

time and energy is spent here.

 

Hey guys! couple of anulom vilom and bhastrika pranayama should help you

both. What you are doing here is not leading to any yoga as there is going

to be much divide, if this attitude continues.

 

Were you there when the Yoga philosophy originated? Enlightened Sanadana

Dharma says: yes you were- as your soul is eternal. But are you in a

position to see where you were in your birth no. X when the philosophy was

evolving? SDs say through yoga, you can see past, present and future - as

Yoga is Union and once this individual soul unites and is in unison with the

divine soul, time is transcended.

Now, you come to that stage and say with authenticity when yoga evolved, we

will accept pre-harappan or post-harappan times. Otherwise, this discussion

seems only academic.

 

But, all said and done, it is common knowledge that while you can assign

dates for origin of Christianity or Islam, no one could exactly date this

magnificent Hinduism aka Sanadhana Dharma. When you agree that yoga,

meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, martial arts, feng shui, acupuncture,

cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many other

scientific and spiritual practices originated in India, why don't you also

see that only Sanadhana Dharmis existed at that time? Let American Yoga

Association also accept this instead of saying contrary to " common belief " .

 

While the cycle of life is Kama, Artha, Dharma & Moksha, yoga studios aim at

Artha aspect- they do not mind calling Yoga Asanasa as Yoga and commercially

exploit it. So, resting on SD, we have to agree that this is also His will.

 

So, lets do some yoga........ ...asanas. ......... not

me.......... ..mediatation. ........yes. ......... ..pranayama. .........

yes...... ......tantra. ......... .yes..... ......bliss. ......... .yes.....

...yes.... .

Yoga........ .Hey I am with him.......I am in him.. ..........Hey. .......I am

Him......... ...So I can see some old sadhus ...........telling about

Yoga........ ..is it pre or post harappan....

Pranam!

 

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don (AT) dmkraig (DOT) net> wrote:

 

>

>

> Namaste, one and all.

>

>

> http://newsweek. washingtonpost. com/onfaith/ panelists/ aseem_shukla/

2010/04/nearly_ twenty_million_ people_in. html

> or

> http://tinyurl. com/y2a8mvl

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Namaste Donald:

 

An interesting critique.

 

While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the

word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/Indus Civilization part of

" Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are

going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think

Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back

to at least that far.

 

And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism "

to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and

spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of

semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be

nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western

world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have

heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen.

 

I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and its

possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this

perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with

many of the authors perspectives.

 

While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most

definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be

better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha

yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture.

 

-Santo

aum shanti shanti shantih.

" The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from

the Yoga VÄsiṣṭha

 

 

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don wrote:

 

>

>

> Namaste, one and all.

>

>

>

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\

_twenty_million_people_in.html

> or

> http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl

>

> There are some assumptions in this article which create false assumptions.

>

>

> The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a

> particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further

> " Hinduism. "

>

> >Arrayed in linear

> > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as a

> > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures:

>

> Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures.

>

> > It would seem that yoga's

> > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of

> > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion.

>

> The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan

> civilization, pre-dates Hinduism.

>

> Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a

> misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a united,

> single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and

> beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma.

>

> > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing,

> > self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern,

> > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu

> > origins.

>

> Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui,

> acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many

> other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources that

> pre-date Hinduism.

>

> > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain

> > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and

> > polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings

> > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises

> > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy

> > in which they can take pride.

>

> The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion and

> world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and

> ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of

> mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully

> suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans

> learn the truth of Indian history and religions.

>

> >

> > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt

> > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the

> > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and

> > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of

> > crass commercialism.

>

> Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with

> similarities.

>

> As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the altar

> of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where there

> are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where

> preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will

> donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the Jordan

> or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it.

>

> > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes

> > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly:

> >

> >

> > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a

> > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries...The

> > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other

> > world religions. "

>

> I would consider this accurate.

>

> > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is

> > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga

> > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE.

>

> I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga was

> INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this is

> not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual practices

> that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu traditions

> are far older than the Sanatana Dharma.

>

> > These

> > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other religions

> > may as well too!

>

> Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice of

> Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma, just

> as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by those

> practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we invented

> it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and adapt

> die out.

>

> >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this

> > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and

> > reincarnation--the very foundations of Hindu philosophy--are only

> > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own.

>

> And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were

> practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian

> culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took

> those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of

> " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma).

>

> > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's

> > Board) released a position paper

> > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's

> > appropriation,

>

> As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans

> improve their educational system especially when it comes to world history

> and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as

> well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the

> tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket.

>

> > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood.

> > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of

> > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one

> > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an

> > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or

> > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of

> > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient.

> > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques

> > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility--even help

> > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on

> > holistic healing and wellness.

>

> I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your foundation

> focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than complaining

> about the tides.

>

> >

> > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga

> > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane

> > material world and put one on the path of self-realization--that each

> > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold

> > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits the

> > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its

> > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of

> > affiliation.

>

> Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West. In

> Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I agree

> that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana

> Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making denunciations

> of other religions and indicate your own ignorance.

>

> Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy.

>

> > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of

> > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning

> > more clients for the yoga studio down the street.

>

> And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not

> simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and

> egotistically attached to claiming its origin?

>

> Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may

> help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning.

>

> Namaste!

>

>

>

 

 

 

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I can sympathize with the sentiments brought up in this discussion. But I'd

like to make a few important points. Others are welcome to disagree with me,

as I'm sure they will, but I just wanted to put my thoughts on this matter

out there. :)

 

1) In regard to the supposed origin of yoga in Harappan civilization...

There are seals with figures sitting in cross-legged poses, and there are

clay figures featuring people sitting in a couple of different postures that

we now associate with yoga. But these poses pictured are also standard ways

that people sit. The Harappan script has never been deciphered, and besides

that, there's really not very much writing that survives. In fact, very,

very little. So it's a serious stretch to say that Harappan civilization

originated yoga, and in any case that is pure speculation. Nothing can be

said with any kind of authority about it. In any case, it wouldn't be yoga,

if anything it would be a very early precursor to yoga.

 

2) The definition of yoga is something that is important here. Yes, people

all over the world have been stretching their bodies and meditating in

various capacities, but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of

philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to

practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its

origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical

milieu of India in the second century BCE. I say effectively because the

Yoga Sutras are what these yoga studios typically reference, whether they

are conscious of that or not. They are using asanas and philosophies that

specifically emerged from Hindu India (recognizing that " Hinduism " is

inherently heterodox). Patanjali compiled yoga philosophy into the Yoga

Sutras in the 2nd century BCE. Everything we know as " yoga " today springs

from that source. Even so, the yoga as presented in yoga studios around the

world is largely a product of colonialism and reconstructionism and has only

been around in that form for 100-150 years. This has been affirmed by

scholars in India, Europe, and the US. What I'm saying is, you can't have it

both ways - you can't claim that you're practicing an ancient tradition that

has little or no connection with or origin in Hinduism, while also using

exclusively Hindu-origin philosophical texts, language, and asanas. And in

regard to language, whether you use the Sanskrit names or the English

translations, you're still using those terms. " Lord of the Fishes Pose " is

still clearly Hindu in origin, even if you're not calling it Matsyendrasana.

 

3) The bone that is picked here by the HAF is that yoga has been divorced

from its essential Hindu nature and origin. This, I believe, is true.

However, it's also somewhat revisionist to look at Hinduism as a unified

system. I agree with another poster that the use of " Hinduism " and/or

" Sanatana Dharma " is completely a matter of semantics. Modern Hinduism owes

its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical

schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra,

Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. Then there's

other movements like Lingayatism, which clearly are based in Hinduism but

are also anti-Brahminical (it's up for debate whether Lingayats are

technically Hindu or not - it's a long-standing debate). Tantra and Bhakti

can often be anti-Brahminical, as well, though both also have movements

within them that reinforce Brahminical laws. These can all be cast under the

umbrella of " Hinduism. "

 

4) The history of yoga itself has been hijacked by revisionists for at least

the last century, both inside and outside of the Hindu religion itself. So

that's a whole other complex issues, which David White addresses in his book

*Sinister Yogis*. I don't always agree with White's approach or assumptions

in his scholarship overall, but the book is worth reading.

 

5) The HAF are a Hindu human rights group, in case anyone is wondering.

 

6) The HAF has a point when they complain that yoga has been delinked from

Hinduism. I feel the same way about neo-Tantra having been hijacked from

Tantra and sensationalized, so that " Tantra " immediately conjures images of

new age sex workshops in so many people's minds. When the American Yoga

Association claims that yoga has no connection with or origin in Hinduism,

they are being at best either completely ignorant or at worst intentionally

disingenuous, and either is a problem. In fact, this claim is a marketing

ploy to bring in people (mainly Christians) who are skittish about starting

a practice that has roots in another religion.

 

7) The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that " Hinduism " has always

been an adaptive, open, changing, heterodox religious tradition. Hinduism

has even gone so far as to incorporate Jesus and Buddha as incarnations of

Vishnu (not all Hindus, but certainly enough of us that this is a common

image). For someone to say that Jesus is their guru but they practice yoga

is not anathema to Hinduism when one looks at the several thousand year

history of the religion.

 

8) The original rebuttal here gives the impression that the article's author

is suggesting that yoga is only for Hindus, when he states exactly and

emphatically the opposite. He states, correctly, that yoga is a gift to

humanity for all to experience and practice. Yet, I also agree that yoga has

its origins in Hinduism, and to completely divorce yoga from Hinduism is to

disenfranchise a spiritual and religious heritage. Does this in turn

disenfranchise Hindus? That is open to debate. But it is pretty clear that

the reason yoga has been divorced from Hinduism is largely for marketing

purposes, to make it more attractive to the average American (predominantly

Christian, less frequently Jewish, or other religion or atheist/agnostic)

buyer. And that, to me, just isn't kosher.

 

Just a few thoughts on this beautiful Friday morning. :)

 

jai MAA kamesvari

-kulasundari

 

--

Jai Maa!

jaimaa.org

 

 

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Santo Sengupta <aumshantihwrote:

 

>

>

> Namaste Donald:

>

> An interesting critique.

>

> While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the

> word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/Indus Civilization part of

> " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are

> going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think

> Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back

> to at least that far.

>

> And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism "

> to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and

> spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of

> semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be

> nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western

> world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have

> heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen.

>

> I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and

> its

> possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this

> perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with

> many of the authors perspectives.

>

> While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most

> definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be

> better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha

> yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture.

>

> -Santo

> aum shanti shanti shantih.

> " The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from

> the Yoga VÄsiṣṭha

>

>

> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael

<don<don%40dmkraig.net>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Namaste, one and all.

> >

> >

> >

>

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\

_twenty_million_people_in.html

> > or

> > http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl

> >

> > There are some assumptions in this article which create false

> assumptions.

> >

> >

> > The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a

> > particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further

> > " Hinduism. "

> >

> > >Arrayed in linear

> > > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as

> a

> > > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures:

> >

> > Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures.

> >

> > > It would seem that yoga's

> > > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of

> > > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion.

> >

> > The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan

> > civilization, pre-dates Hinduism.

> >

> > Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a

> > misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a

> united,

> > single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and

> > beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma.

> >

> > > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing,

> > > self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern,

> > > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu

> > > origins.

> >

> > Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui,

> > acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and

> many

> > other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources

> that

> > pre-date Hinduism.

> >

> > > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain

> > > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and

> > > polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings

> > > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises

> > > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy

> > > in which they can take pride.

> >

> > The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion

> and

> > world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and

> > ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of

> > mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully

> > suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans

> > learn the truth of Indian history and religions.

> >

> > >

> > > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt

> > > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the

> > > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and

> > > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of

> > > crass commercialism.

> >

> > Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with

> > similarities.

> >

> > As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the

> altar

> > of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where

> there

> > are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where

> > preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will

> > donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the

> Jordan

> > or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it.

> >

> > > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes

> > > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly:

> > >

> > >

> > > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a

> > > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries...The

> > > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other

> > > world religions. "

> >

> > I would consider this accurate.

> >

> > > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is

> > > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga

> > > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE.

> >

> > I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga

> was

> > INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this

> is

> > not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual

> practices

> > that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu

> traditions

> > are far older than the Sanatana Dharma.

> >

> > > These

> > > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other

> religions

> > > may as well too!

> >

> > Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice

> of

> > Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma,

> just

> > as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by

> those

> > practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we

> invented

> > it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and

> adapt

> > die out.

> >

> > >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this

> > > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and

> > > reincarnation--the very foundations of Hindu philosophy--are only

> > > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own.

> >

> > And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were

> > practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian

> > culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took

> > those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of

> > " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma).

> >

> > > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's

> > > Board) released a position paper

> > > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's

> > > appropriation,

> >

> > As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans

> > improve their educational system especially when it comes to world

> history

> > and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as

> > well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the

> > tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket.

> >

> > > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood.

> > > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of

> > > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one

> > > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an

> > > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or

> > > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of

> > > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient.

> > > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques

> > > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility--even help

> > > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on

> > > holistic healing and wellness.

> >

> > I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your

> foundation

> > focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than

> complaining

> > about the tides.

> >

> > >

> > > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga

> > > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane

> > > material world and put one on the path of self-realization--that each

> > > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold

> > > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits

> the

> > > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its

> > > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of

> > > affiliation.

> >

> > Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West.

> In

> > Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I

> agree

> > that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana

> > Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making

> denunciations

> > of other religions and indicate your own ignorance.

> >

> > Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy.

> >

> > > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of

> > > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning

> > > more clients for the yoga studio down the street.

> >

> > And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not

> > simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and

> > egotistically attached to claiming its origin?

> >

> > Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may

> > help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning.

> >

> > Namaste!

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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Thank you for your reply.

 

, Santo Sengupta <aumshantih wrote:

>

> Namaste Donald:

>

> An interesting critique.

>

> While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the

> word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/Indus Civilization part of

> " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are

> going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think

> Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back

> to at least that far.

 

 

I know of no Jews who claim that " Judaism has been the same for 6,000 years. "

Could you tell us which Jewish group claims this?

 

The " roots " of Hinduism do extend back that far, but the practices and beliefs

of what is called Hinduism today are so far from those roots that it is often

difficult to see them.

 

 

> And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism "

> to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and

> spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of

> semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be

> nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western

> world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have

> heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen.

 

Actually, I would agree with you in this. However, this is not an email between

you and me. I have no doubt that you fully understand this, as do your parents

in from Kolkata. But the sad truth is that most Westerners do not know this and

think of the Sanatana Dharma as a single faith where people visit great temples

and worship cows.

 

>

> I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and its

> possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this

> perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with

> many of the authors perspectives.

>

> While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most

> definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be

> better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha

> yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture.

 

 

I am deeply concerned with the concept of appropriating cultures from around the

world. Some Westerners do this, often pushing and squeezing foreign concepts

into their narrow, preconceived ideas. Using a talking stick and saying " Ho, "

means that they are adopting Native American spiritual traditions. Practicing

Hatha Yoga means they have universalized Yoga and brought it back to its core.

This attempted synthesis most often tends to at best minimize the spiritual

depths of what is borrowed.

 

Unfortunately, with jet planes, faxes, telephones, the internet and the trend in

publishing, I fear this is going to increase. The solution, IMO, is not to decry

what has been " appropriated, " but to more fully educate. I would encourage

people not to complain, " You're stealing my culture. " Rather, I would suggest

that they should use concepts such as Hatha Yoga as an opening to sharing even

more.

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Thank you for your wonderful comments.

 

, Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote:

> 1) In regard to the supposed origin of yoga in Harappan civilization...

> There are seals with figures sitting in cross-legged poses, and there are

> clay figures featuring people sitting in a couple of different postures that

> we now associate with yoga. But these poses pictured are also standard ways

> that people sit. The Harappan script has never been deciphered, and besides

> that, there's really not very much writing that survives. In fact, very,

> very little. So it's a serious stretch to say that Harappan civilization

> originated yoga, and in any case that is pure speculation. Nothing can be

> said with any kind of authority about it. In any case, it wouldn't be yoga,

> if anything it would be a very early precursor to yoga.

 

 

I mostly agree with this. I certainly agree that the images imply a precursor to

yoga, hence my position that yoga originated there. You are correct that there

is not a lot of writing from that civilization, however there is plenty.

Further, there are currently some people claiming that they have established an

effective translation of the script. See, for example, Decipherment of Indus

inscriptions: From megalithic to Harrapan by John Newberry or, The Deciphered

Indus Script by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram. At this time, however, there is no

scholarly agreement on this.

 

 

> 2) The definition of yoga is something that is important here. Yes, people

> all over the world have been stretching their bodies and meditating in

> various capacities, but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of

> philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to

> practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its

> origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical

> milieu of India in the second century BCE. I say effectively because the

> Yoga Sutras are what these yoga studios typically reference, whether they

> are conscious of that or not. They are using asanas and philosophies that

> specifically emerged from Hindu India (recognizing that " Hinduism " is

> inherently heterodox). Patanjali compiled yoga philosophy into the Yoga

> Sutras in the 2nd century BCE. Everything we know as " yoga " today springs

> from that source. Even so, the yoga as presented in yoga studios around the

> world is largely a product of colonialism and reconstructionism and has only

> been around in that form for 100-150 years. This has been affirmed by

> scholars in India, Europe, and the US. What I'm saying is, you can't have it

> both ways - you can't claim that you're practicing an ancient tradition that

> has little or no connection with or origin in Hinduism, while also using

> exclusively Hindu-origin philosophical texts, language, and asanas. And in

> regard to language, whether you use the Sanskrit names or the English

> translations, you're still using those terms. " Lord of the Fishes Pose " is

> still clearly Hindu in origin, even if you're not calling it Matsyendrasana.

 

While I certainly agree that modern Yogic practices trace themselves back to

Patanjali, I have seen no evidence that he invented them, nor have I seen such a

claim by you or anyone else. He compiled what was know (and my guess is he added

his own ideas and perhaps advanced on what he compiled--it's what compilers tend

to do).

 

It's also very true (and most people, frankly, are unaware of this) that yoga

(i.e., Hatha Yoga), as practiced today, is only about a century to 150 years old

and due in the West to imperialism and colonialism. Further, although Patanjali

is obviously much older, the oldest work focusing on Hatha Yoga is the Hatha

Yoga Pradipika, and it's only about 500-600 years old (although based on older

works).

 

 

 

> 3) The bone that is picked here by the HAF is that yoga has been divorced

> from its essential Hindu nature and origin. This, I believe, is true.

> However, it's also somewhat revisionist to look at Hinduism as a unified

> system. I agree with another poster that the use of " Hinduism " and/or

> " Sanatana Dharma " is completely a matter of semantics. Modern Hinduism owes

> its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical

> schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra,

> Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. Then there's

> other movements like Lingayatism, which clearly are based in Hinduism but

> are also anti-Brahminical (it's up for debate whether Lingayats are

> technically Hindu or not - it's a long-standing debate). Tantra and Bhakti

> can often be anti-Brahminical, as well, though both also have movements

> within them that reinforce Brahminical laws. These can all be cast under the

> umbrella of " Hinduism. "

 

I am not denying any of this. However, this is not an email between you and me,

it is on an open forum. Most Westerners think of Hinduism as a single,

monolithic religion. By stressing its more accurate name, I'm focusing on

sharing the concept of so many beautiful traditions that are simply under an

umbrella name. Call it " Hinduism " and many people reading this will have made up

their minds already as to what it is because of their predetermined mindset.

 

This brings me to a disagreement with you. I would respectfully say that " The

bone that is picked here by the HAF " is NOT " that yoga has been divorced from

its essential Hindu nature and origin. " If that were their " bone, " I would

certainly agree. Rather, from reading the post, it appears that they are

complaining that this is the wrong thing to do. Whether it is wrong or not, IMO,

is irrelevant. From their post it appears that they are so ego attached to a

" Yoga. Ours! " mentality that they are ignoring the chance to educate people on

the amazing history and spiritual guidance that has come from India. What I'm

suggesting is that instead of trying to stand and say, " No! You can't! " there's

much more potential in saying, " And if you think THAT'S great, let me share

where it came from and some of the other ideas! "

 

 

> 4) The history of yoga itself has been hijacked by revisionists for at least

> the last century, both inside and outside of the Hindu religion itself. So

> that's a whole other complex issues, which David White addresses in his book

> *Sinister Yogis*. I don't always agree with White's approach or assumptions

> in his scholarship overall, but the book is worth reading.

>

 

Unfortunately true.

 

 

 

> 5) The HAF are a Hindu human rights group, in case anyone is wondering.

>

 

Even Hindu human rights groups can make what I would consider an error in their

approach.

 

 

> 6) The HAF has a point when they complain that yoga has been delinked from

> Hinduism. I feel the same way about neo-Tantra having been hijacked from

> Tantra and sensationalized, so that " Tantra " immediately conjures images of

> new age sex workshops in so many people's minds. When the American Yoga

> Association claims that yoga has no connection with or origin in Hinduism,

> they are being at best either completely ignorant or at worst intentionally

> disingenuous, and either is a problem. In fact, this claim is a marketing

> ploy to bring in people (mainly Christians) who are skittish about starting

> a practice that has roots in another religion.

 

While I agree with you, I would also have to agree with the AYA that the way

they approach yoga it is just exercise. Today, many Christian children color

eggs for Easter. The fact that this is an ancient Pagan custom (even the name

comes from a Pagan goddess) has no relation to what they're doing today.

 

 

> 7) The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that " Hinduism " has always

> been an adaptive, open, changing, heterodox religious tradition. Hinduism

> has even gone so far as to incorporate Jesus and Buddha as incarnations of

> Vishnu (not all Hindus, but certainly enough of us that this is a common

> image). For someone to say that Jesus is their guru but they practice yoga

> is not anathema to Hinduism when one looks at the several thousand year

> history of the religion.

 

From a Hindu viewpoint, this is true. From an exclusivist Christian viewpoint,

anything not specifically Christian needs to be eliminated from the lives of

those Christians. There are literally Christian ministers preaching that

Hinduism IS Satanism, and few people object. Perhaps HAF would be better focused

on denouncing such lying misrepresentations.

 

> 8) The original rebuttal here gives the impression that the article's author

> is suggesting that yoga is only for Hindus, when he states exactly and

> emphatically the opposite. He states, correctly, that yoga is a gift to

> humanity for all to experience and practice. Yet, I also agree that yoga has

> its origins in Hinduism, and to completely divorce yoga from Hinduism is to

> disenfranchise a spiritual and religious heritage. Does this in turn

> disenfranchise Hindus? That is open to debate. But it is pretty clear that

> the reason yoga has been divorced from Hinduism is largely for marketing

> purposes, to make it more attractive to the average American (predominantly

> Christian, less frequently Jewish, or other religion or atheist/agnostic)

> buyer. And that, to me, just isn't kosher.

 

Thank you.

 

I don't think it so much " disenfranchises " Hindus so much as continues with

allowing the current Western misunderstanding on the nature of Hinduism. This

allows Westerners to continue thinking that people of India (primarily) are

living in jungle huts and are primarily uneducated and unproductive people who

sit around all day worshiping cows. It harms Hindus, Indians, and the people

with the false beliefs who are losing their jobs to the highly educated and

industrialized workers in India.

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It is not my wont to get into any polemics.

 

Madam Kulasundari notes in her post " but yoga *as a specific, unified,

Sanskritized system of

philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to

practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its

origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical

milieu of India in the second century BCE " .

 

Let us understaqnd very very clearly that yoga does not owe its origin to

Patanjali. He only codified existing instructions into aphorisms.

Let us also not confuse rajayoga with hatha yoga. Only reference that Patanjali

gives to postures is 'sthira-sukham aasanam'. He does give out a few sutras on

praanaayaama.

 

Lord Krishna talks of sankhya yoga, karmayoga, bhaktiyoga etc. All of these

could not owe their origin to Patanjali.

 

As far as hathayoga is concerned, there is a separate Tamil system completely

independent of 'Sanskritised systems'.

 

The squabble seems to verge on intellectual property rights. We as Hindus (I am

talking of majority mainstream Hindus like myself) have miserably failed to

follow the faith in its true spirit, do not understand the profundity of its

philosophical depth and have failed to pass on the treasure systematically to

our children. Even if I happen to be a great scholar, my guesses on the origin

of things Indian will at best be conjectures.

 

Another point I would like to make here would be concerning what is brahminical.

Just because a few Westerners and a few so called secular scholars brand certain

things brahminical and certain things non-brahminical, it is not necessary we

accept it. This difference has been made historically with a pointed to view to

fostering divisionist strategy and brand both profane (from missionaries' point

of view).

 

I think it would be far more appropriate that we call this vedic system and

non-vedic or extra-vedic system. Repeatedly rubbing the word brahmin with what

connotation it has acquired in contemporary times causes brahmins like us to

bear it with a grin.

 

We also must recognise and accept the fact that brahmins have had a significant

and critical role in preserving the bulk of the body of Hindu philosophy.

 

My intention in penning these lines is not to pick up an argument with anyone

nor find fault. I have no skills in this area nor in getting into academic

logomachies though I am a student of Indian Tarka system.

 

JR

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Kulasundari Devi <sundari

 

Fri, April 23, 2010 10:21:57 PM

Re: Critique of HAF article on the 'Theft of Yoga'

 

 

I can sympathize with the sentiments brought up in this discussion. But I'd

like to make a few important points. Others are welcome to disagree with me,

as I'm sure they will, but I just wanted to put my thoughts on this matter

out there. :)

 

1) In regard to the supposed origin of yoga in Harappan civilization. ..

There are seals with figures sitting in cross-legged poses, and there are

clay figures featuring people sitting in a couple of different postures that

we now associate with yoga. But these poses pictured are also standard ways

that people sit. The Harappan script has never been deciphered, and besides

that, there's really not very much writing that survives. In fact, very,

very little. So it's a serious stretch to say that Harappan civilization

originated yoga, and in any case that is pure speculation. Nothing can be

said with any kind of authority about it. In any case, it wouldn't be yoga,

if anything it would be a very early precursor to yoga.

 

2) The definition of yoga is something that is important here. Yes, people

all over the world have been stretching their bodies and meditating in

various capacities, but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of

philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to

practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its

origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical

milieu of India in the second century BCE. I say effectively because the

Yoga Sutras are what these yoga studios typically reference, whether they

are conscious of that or not. They are using asanas and philosophies that

specifically emerged from Hindu India (recognizing that " Hinduism " is

inherently heterodox). Patanjali compiled yoga philosophy into the Yoga

Sutras in the 2nd century BCE. Everything we know as " yoga " today springs

from that source. Even so, the yoga as presented in yoga studios around the

world is largely a product of colonialism and reconstructionism and has only

been around in that form for 100-150 years. This has been affirmed by

scholars in India, Europe, and the US. What I'm saying is, you can't have it

both ways - you can't claim that you're practicing an ancient tradition that

has little or no connection with or origin in Hinduism, while also using

exclusively Hindu-origin philosophical texts, language, and asanas. And in

regard to language, whether you use the Sanskrit names or the English

translations, you're still using those terms. " Lord of the Fishes Pose " is

still clearly Hindu in origin, even if you're not calling it Matsyendrasana.

 

3) The bone that is picked here by the HAF is that yoga has been divorced

from its essential Hindu nature and origin. This, I believe, is true.

However, it's also somewhat revisionist to look at Hinduism as a unified

system. I agree with another poster that the use of " Hinduism " and/or

" Sanatana Dharma " is completely a matter of semantics. Modern Hinduism owes

its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical

schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra,

Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. Then there's

other movements like Lingayatism, which clearly are based in Hinduism but

are also anti-Brahminical (it's up for debate whether Lingayats are

technically Hindu or not - it's a long-standing debate). Tantra and Bhakti

can often be anti-Brahminical, as well, though both also have movements

within them that reinforce Brahminical laws. These can all be cast under the

umbrella of " Hinduism. "

 

4) The history of yoga itself has been hijacked by revisionists for at least

the last century, both inside and outside of the Hindu religion itself. So

that's a whole other complex issues, which David White addresses in his book

*Sinister Yogis*. I don't always agree with White's approach or assumptions

in his scholarship overall, but the book is worth reading.

 

5) The HAF are a Hindu human rights group, in case anyone is wondering.

 

6) The HAF has a point when they complain that yoga has been delinked from

Hinduism. I feel the same way about neo-Tantra having been hijacked from

Tantra and sensationalized, so that " Tantra " immediately conjures images of

new age sex workshops in so many people's minds. When the American Yoga

Association claims that yoga has no connection with or origin in Hinduism,

they are being at best either completely ignorant or at worst intentionally

disingenuous, and either is a problem. In fact, this claim is a marketing

ploy to bring in people (mainly Christians) who are skittish about starting

a practice that has roots in another religion.

 

7) The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that " Hinduism " has always

been an adaptive, open, changing, heterodox religious tradition. Hinduism

has even gone so far as to incorporate Jesus and Buddha as incarnations of

Vishnu (not all Hindus, but certainly enough of us that this is a common

image). For someone to say that Jesus is their guru but they practice yoga

is not anathema to Hinduism when one looks at the several thousand year

history of the religion.

 

8) The original rebuttal here gives the impression that the article's author

is suggesting that yoga is only for Hindus, when he states exactly and

emphatically the opposite. He states, correctly, that yoga is a gift to

humanity for all to experience and practice. Yet, I also agree that yoga has

its origins in Hinduism, and to completely divorce yoga from Hinduism is to

disenfranchise a spiritual and religious heritage. Does this in turn

disenfranchise Hindus? That is open to debate. But it is pretty clear that

the reason yoga has been divorced from Hinduism is largely for marketing

purposes, to make it more attractive to the average American (predominantly

Christian, less frequently Jewish, or other religion or atheist/agnostic)

buyer. And that, to me, just isn't kosher.

 

Just a few thoughts on this beautiful Friday morning. :)

 

jai MAA kamesvari

-kulasundari

 

--

Jai Maa!

jaimaa.org

 

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Santo Sengupta <aumshantih (AT) gmail (DOT) com>wrote:

 

>

>

> Namaste Donald:

>

> An interesting critique.

>

> While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the

> word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/ Indus Civilization part of

> " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are

> going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think

> Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back

> to at least that far.

>

> And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism "

> to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and

> spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of

> semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be

> nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western

> world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have

> heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen.

>

> I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and

> its

> possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this

> perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with

> many of the authors perspectives.

>

> While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most

> definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be

> better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha

> yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture.

>

> -Santo

> aum shanti shanti shantih.

> " The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from

> the Yoga VÄsiṣṭha

>

>

> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don (AT) dmkraig (DOT)

net<don%40dmkraig. net>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Namaste, one and all.

> >

> >

> >

> http://newsweek. washingtonpost. com/onfaith/ panelists/ aseem_shukla/

2010/04/nearly_ twenty_million_ people_in. html

> > or

> > http://tinyurl. com/y2a8mvl

> >

> > There are some assumptions in this article which create false

> assumptions.

> >

> >

> > The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a

> > particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further

> > " Hinduism. "

> >

> > >Arrayed in linear

> > > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as

> a

> > > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures:

> >

> > Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures.

> >

> > > It would seem that yoga's

> > > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of

> > > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion.

> >

> > The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan

> > civilization, pre-dates Hinduism.

> >

> > Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a

> > misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a

> united,

> > single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and

> > beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma.

> >

> > > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing,

> > > self-realization- -they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern,

> > > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu

> > > origins.

> >

> > Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui,

> > acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and

> many

> > other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources

> that

> > pre-date Hinduism.

> >

> > > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain

> > > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and

> > > polytheism-- the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings

> > > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises

> > > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy

> > > in which they can take pride.

> >

> > The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion

> and

> > world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and

> > ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of

> > mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully

> > suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans

> > learn the truth of Indian history and religions.

> >

> > >

> > > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt

> > > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the

> > > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and

> > > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of

> > > crass commercialism.

> >

> > Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with

> > similarities.

> >

> > As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the

> altar

> > of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where

> there

> > are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where

> > preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will

> > donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the

> Jordan

> > or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it.

> >

> > > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes

> > > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly:

> > >

> > >

> > > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a

> > > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries... The

> > > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other

> > > world religions. "

> >

> > I would consider this accurate.

> >

> > > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is

> > > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga

> > > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE.

> >

> > I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga

> was

> > INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this

> is

> > not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual

> practices

> > that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu

> traditions

> > are far older than the Sanatana Dharma.

> >

> > > These

> > > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other

> religions

> > > may as well too!

> >

> > Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice

> of

> > Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma,

> just

> > as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by

> those

> > practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we

> invented

> > it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and

> adapt

> > die out.

> >

> > >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this

> > > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and

> > > reincarnation- -the very foundations of Hindu philosophy-- are only

> > > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own.

> >

> > And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were

> > practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian

> > culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took

> > those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of

> > " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma).

> >

> > > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's

> > > Board) released a position paper

> > > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's

> > > appropriation,

> >

> > As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans

> > improve their educational system especially when it comes to world

> history

> > and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as

> > well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the

> > tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket.

> >

> > > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood.

> > > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of

> > > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one

> > > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an

> > > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or

> > > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of

> > > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient.

> > > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques

> > > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility- -even help

> > > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on

> > > holistic healing and wellness.

> >

> > I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your

> foundation

> > focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than

> complaining

> > about the tides.

> >

> > >

> > > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga

> > > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane

> > > material world and put one on the path of self-realization- -that each

> > > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold

> > > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits

> the

> > > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its

> > > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of

> > > affiliation.

> >

> > Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West.

> In

> > Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I

> agree

> > that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana

> > Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making

> denunciations

> > of other religions and indicate your own ignorance.

> >

> > Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy.

> >

> > > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of

> > > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning

> > > more clients for the yoga studio down the street.

> >

> > And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not

> > simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and

> > egotistically attached to claiming its origin?

> >

> > Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may

> > help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning.

> >

> > Namaste!

> >

> >

> >

>

>

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, Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote:

>Modern Hinduism owes its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of

different philosophical schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika,

Vedanta, Tantra, Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories.

>

 

Namaste Sri Kulasundari ji,

 

I really like this point. I think that it is most true of Hinduism, but would

you not say that it is also true of nearly every modern belief system and

practice?

 

I find myself in the company of Christians who either believe that they are

" back to basics " like " the early church " or who believe that their modern ways

are the " revealed truth, " so that they do not have to do the heavy lifting of

learning what was actually happening about 2000 years ago.

 

In either case, my observation is that their practice is, as you put it, the

result of " complex negotiations " of time, culture, philosophies and

technological revolutions that changed everyone.

 

Which brings me to a question.

 

In my Pagan practice I say that " now " is completely legitimate and while we

should study the past with reverence and seriousness, the practices that we

arrive at in our present time and with devotion, are (in Paganism only I'm

saying) completely legitimate. What is not legitimate (imo) is to pretend an

orthodoxy to a past that is buried by time, change and loss of continuity.

 

We should do the heavy lifting, sure, of studying and looking for the truths of

the past.

 

Yet, to me to pretend that I am practicing as my ancestors practiced is

inherently false.

 

Because when they were practicing, worshiping, learning and writing... what they

were creating for us was entirely new at that time. Possibly heretical to the

time before.

 

And if they were in the presence of divine inspiration, it is possible for us.

 

But that's Paganism.

 

While working with the acharyaji at the temple on the Devi Stuti he commented

that there are 4 pillars. The mother introduces the father the father introduces

the guru and the guru introduces god.... and without the guru there is no god.

 

I'm not certain that I agree with that.

 

I think I believe that everyone can have a direct unmediated experience of the

divine.

 

I also believe that studying an established " way " is very difficult and much

helped by appropriate courses of study and good teachers.

 

And very beneficial.

 

Complex negotiations indeed.

 

Blessings,

 

pr

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Wonderful thoughts. :)

 

Incidentally, I owe the term " complex negotiation " to Hugh Urban, who uses

that term a lot in his latest book (which is brilliant, by the way).

 

In regards to Pagan practice, you're absolutely right. Paganism is a new

religion, and even reconstructionists are not practicing the same rituals

that their ancestors were.

 

However, in Hinduism it's a bit different. We have fairly detailed, quite

precise written record of Vedic srauta rituals, with an unbroken line of

transmission, and these rituals are still performed today. It's arguable

whether the meaning behind those rituals has changed or not - I would argue

that it has, certainly, as meaning was sacrificed for memorization, and the

sound of the mantra for some time became more important than the inner

meaning. This is documented. But much of modern temple and Tantric ritual

has evolved over the last few millenia and especially the last several

centuries, and incorporates various elements. But one can't really compare

this to modern Paganism at all (and you weren't, I just want to make it

clear that there is no comparison).

 

Christianity, Judaism, etc. - these have all evolved tremendously over time,

as has Hinduism, and you are definitely correct in that religions around the

world in the modern context are products of the cultural, social, and

political forces that shaped them over time. In this sense, Paganism is no

different - it has rapidly evolved in the last seventy or so years, and

continues to do so. I'm sure there are plenty of Indo-pagans on this list.

:)

 

I'm going to speak in generalities here, which is always dangerous

territory. The effectiveness is generally more important than the antiquity

of ritual. That being said, ritual that has been performed in the same way

for hundreds or thousands of years gains an efficacy of its own, and

effective rituals tend to endure, the product of trial and error (or the

product of lots and lots of testing of revealed wisdom). In Assam, the

various rulers recognized that Brahminical (yes, I use that word

intentionally - Brahminical/orthodox temple worship is not necessarily Vedic

worship, though it may have Vedic elements, and it is performed by male

Brahmin priests almost exclusively) worship and tribal (often antinomian)

worship of the same deities were both effective. These elements became

combined at Kamakhya, and codified in Kaula and other forms of left-hand

Shakta and Shaiva worship practiced in Assam down the ages (greatly reduced,

of course, by the Vaishnava reform movement).

 

The four pillars you speak of are definitely one way to look at the

progression and dynamic of relationship between self and God/dess. The guru

is important in Tantric worship because the guru teaches the tried-and-true

methods of attaining total realization of the Self, which is total

realization of oneness. Without that guidance, it is extremely difficult

(typically impossible) to attain on one's own. The Western (especially

Pagan) concept of a God experience is different than the documented Tantric

experience of God, which is to say, having a religious experience - which

can be achieved fairly simply by almost anyone - is not the same as

realization or Kundalini or enlightenment, which are on a totally different

level.

 

However, the reliance on the guru can be used as a troubling power dynamic,

which is why it's extremely important to form that relationship very

carefully. It's not something to be taken lightly (though plenty devotees

do, perhaps not understanding the relationship). From a Western

philosophical point of view (steeped in Cartesian dualism and Freudian

influence), saying that there is no God without guru can feel like a

disempowering ego trip. But from the perspective of deity as inherently

grounded in relationship (i.e. there is no Shakti without Shiva and vice

versa - the relationship is inherent and inseparable), it makes perfect

sense and also helps one to understand the relationship between the self and

the Self, or the Self and God.

 

As I say always, if one has no interest in gurus (or cannot find one that is

appropriate), one should become a bhakta. If one wants to be a Tantric and

learn sadhana, the guru is indispensable, for a host of reasons.

 

jai MA kamesvari

-kulasundari

 

Sri Kamakhya Mahavidya Mandir

www.kamakhyamandir.org

 

 

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:17 PM, prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> <%40>,

> Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote:

> >Modern Hinduism owes its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of

> different philosophical schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya,

> Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra, Bhakti... and each of these had their own

> complex histories.

> >

>

> Namaste Sri Kulasundari ji,

>

> I really like this point. I think that it is most true of Hinduism, but

> would you not say that it is also true of nearly every modern belief system

> and practice?

>

> I find myself in the company of Christians who either believe that they are

> " back to basics " like " the early church " or who believe that their modern

> ways are the " revealed truth, " so that they do not have to do the heavy

> lifting of learning what was actually happening about 2000 years ago.

>

> In either case, my observation is that their practice is, as you put it,

> the result of " complex negotiations " of time, culture, philosophies and

> technological revolutions that changed everyone.

>

> Which brings me to a question.

>

> In my Pagan practice I say that " now " is completely legitimate and while we

> should study the past with reverence and seriousness, the practices that we

> arrive at in our present time and with devotion, are (in Paganism only I'm

> saying) completely legitimate. What is not legitimate (imo) is to pretend an

> orthodoxy to a past that is buried by time, change and loss of continuity.

>

> We should do the heavy lifting, sure, of studying and looking for the

> truths of the past.

>

> Yet, to me to pretend that I am practicing as my ancestors practiced is

> inherently false.

>

> Because when they were practicing, worshiping, learning and writing... what

> they were creating for us was entirely new at that time. Possibly heretical

> to the time before.

>

> And if they were in the presence of divine inspiration, it is possible for

> us.

>

> But that's Paganism.

>

> While working with the acharyaji at the temple on the Devi Stuti he

> commented that there are 4 pillars. The mother introduces the father the

> father introduces the guru and the guru introduces god.... and without the

> guru there is no god.

>

> I'm not certain that I agree with that.

>

> I think I believe that everyone can have a direct unmediated experience of

> the divine.

>

> I also believe that studying an established " way " is very difficult and

> much helped by appropriate courses of study and good teachers.

>

> And very beneficial.

>

> Complex negotiations indeed.

>

> Blessings,

>

> pr

>

>

>

 

 

 

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Yoga, aurveda, vaastu,meditation, acupressure were all Indian practices for

a good , healthy life and attain salvation in this birth through development

of body, mind and spirit and did not belong to Hindu religion . There was no

religion at all and 'Hinduism' as such came into being after the invaders

from Persia came in with totally a new 'religion' and then the European

colonial rulers. Till then all the above were freely exchanged

as Indians believe in free sharing of knowledge . In fact the exchanges

between Indians and Chinese were so frequent -specially

with flourishing Nalanda and Taxila universities in the BC era,

TCM,fengshui, accupuncture were identical and we cannot say which came from

where.

Intellectual property is a new concept of the west and the eastern cultures

are still shocked by this crude commercialization of knowledge of our fore

fathers. Indian and Chinese need not worry. Despite crass greed of some,

this adoption is spreading our soft power as America passed the MacDonald

and Hollywood. In the process if the world is to become a global village

with all considered equal that is the utopia we are all earning for right?

Let us continue to believe in our culture not religion as such .Once others

start adopting them they too will transform to think the way we do. Till

then lets be patient and be what we are

Rama

 

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Donald Michael <don wrote:

 

 

>

>

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\

_twenty_million_people_in.html

> or

> http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl

>

> There are some assumptions in this article which create false assumptions.

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