Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Namaste, one and all. http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\ _twenty_million_people_in.html or http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl There are some assumptions in this article which create false assumptions. The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further " Hinduism. " >Arrayed in linear > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as a > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures: Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures. > It would seem that yoga's > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion. The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan civilization, pre-dates Hinduism. Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a united, single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma. > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, > self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu > origins. Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui, acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources that pre-date Hinduism. > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and > polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy > in which they can take pride. The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion and world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans learn the truth of Indian history and religions. > > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of > crass commercialism. Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with similarities. As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the altar of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where there are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the Jordan or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it. > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly: > > > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries...The > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other > world religions. " I would consider this accurate. > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE. I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga was INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this is not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual practices that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu traditions are far older than the Sanatana Dharma. > These > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other religions > may as well too! Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice of Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma, just as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by those practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we invented it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and adapt die out. >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and > reincarnation--the very foundations of Hindu philosophy--are only > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own. And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma). > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's > Board) released a position paper > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's > appropriation, As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans improve their educational system especially when it comes to world history and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket. > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood. > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient. > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility--even help > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on > holistic healing and wellness. I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your foundation focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than complaining about the tides. > > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane > material world and put one on the path of self-realization--that each > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits the > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of > affiliation. Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West. In Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I agree that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making denunciations of other religions and indicate your own ignorance. Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy. > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning > more clients for the yoga studio down the street. And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and egotistically attached to claiming its origin? Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning. Namaste! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Om Namah Shivaya Sri Matre Namaha Its very interesting reading the squabble of these two great souls! How much time and energy is spent here. Hey guys! couple of anulom vilom and bhastrika pranayama should help you both. What you are doing here is not leading to any yoga as there is going to be much divide, if this attitude continues. Were you there when the Yoga philosophy originated? Enlightened Sanadana Dharma says: yes you were- as your soul is eternal. But are you in a position to see where you were in your birth no. X when the philosophy was evolving? SDs say through yoga, you can see past, present and future - as Yoga is Union and once this individual soul unites and is in unison with the divine soul, time is transcended. Now, you come to that stage and say with authenticity when yoga evolved, we will accept pre-harappan or post-harappan times. Otherwise, this discussion seems only academic. But, all said and done, it is common knowledge that while you can assign dates for origin of Christianity or Islam, no one could exactly date this magnificent Hinduism aka Sanadhana Dharma. When you agree that yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, martial arts, feng shui, acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many other scientific and spiritual practices originated in India, why don't you also see that only Sanadhana Dharmis existed at that time? Let American Yoga Association also accept this instead of saying contrary to " common belief " . While the cycle of life is Kama, Artha, Dharma & Moksha, yoga studios aim at Artha aspect- they do not mind calling Yoga Asanasa as Yoga and commercially exploit it. So, resting on SD, we have to agree that this is also His will. So, lets do some yoga...........asanas..........not me............mediatation.........yes............pranayama..........yes.........\ ....tantra...........yes...........bliss...........yes.......yes..... Yoga.........Hey I am with him.......I am in him.. ..........Hey........I am Him............So I can see some old sadhus ...........telling about Yoga..........is it pre or post harappan.... Pranam! On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don wrote: > > > Namaste, one and all. > > > http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\ _twenty_million_people_in.html > or > http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 HI there, I thought it would be appropriate to study Naasadiya Suktam of Rig Veda since there were some interesting theories and notions about origin of things such as yoga, rajayoga, patanjali, sanatana dharma, harappan age etc., all of which go much above my head. I can make an interesting observation here. Patanjali yoga sutras were taught to me in the traditional manner by my guru who was quite ignorant of what the western world thinks of these things. You see he had no english Education; but purely the traditional one. A translation of the Nâsadiya-Sukta, Rg-Veda, X. 129. by svami Vivekananda Existence was not then, nor non-existence, The world was not, the sky beyond was neither. What covered the mist? Of whom was that? What was in the depths of darkness thick? Death was not then, nor immortality, The night was neither separate from day, But motionless did That vibrate Alone, with Its own glory one — Beyond That nothing did exist. At first in darkness hidden darkness lay, Undistinguished as one mass of water, Then That which lay in void thus covered A glory did put forth by Tapah! First desire rose, the primal seed of mind, (The sages have seen all this in their hearts Sifting existence from non-existence.) Its rays above, below and sideways spread. Creative then became the glory, With self-sustaining principle below. And Creative Energy above. Who knew the way? Who there declared Whence this arose? Projection whence? For after this projection came the gods. Who therefore knew indeed, came out this whence? This projection whence arose, Whether held or whether not, He the ruler in the supreme sky, of this He, O Sharman! knows, or knows not He perchance!  JR ________________________________ Ravi Iyer <iyerlaw Fri, April 23, 2010 4:22:05 AM Re: Critique of HAF article on the 'Theft of Yoga'  Om Namah Shivaya Sri Matre Namaha Its very interesting reading the squabble of these two great souls! How much time and energy is spent here. Hey guys! couple of anulom vilom and bhastrika pranayama should help you both. What you are doing here is not leading to any yoga as there is going to be much divide, if this attitude continues. Were you there when the Yoga philosophy originated? Enlightened Sanadana Dharma says: yes you were- as your soul is eternal. But are you in a position to see where you were in your birth no. X when the philosophy was evolving? SDs say through yoga, you can see past, present and future - as Yoga is Union and once this individual soul unites and is in unison with the divine soul, time is transcended. Now, you come to that stage and say with authenticity when yoga evolved, we will accept pre-harappan or post-harappan times. Otherwise, this discussion seems only academic. But, all said and done, it is common knowledge that while you can assign dates for origin of Christianity or Islam, no one could exactly date this magnificent Hinduism aka Sanadhana Dharma. When you agree that yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, martial arts, feng shui, acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many other scientific and spiritual practices originated in India, why don't you also see that only Sanadhana Dharmis existed at that time? Let American Yoga Association also accept this instead of saying contrary to " common belief " . While the cycle of life is Kama, Artha, Dharma & Moksha, yoga studios aim at Artha aspect- they do not mind calling Yoga Asanasa as Yoga and commercially exploit it. So, resting on SD, we have to agree that this is also His will. So, lets do some yoga........ ...asanas. ......... not me.......... ..mediatation. ........yes. ......... ..pranayama. ......... yes...... ......tantra. ......... .yes..... ......bliss. ......... .yes..... ...yes.... . Yoga........ .Hey I am with him.......I am in him.. ..........Hey. .......I am Him......... ...So I can see some old sadhus ...........telling about Yoga........ ..is it pre or post harappan.... Pranam! On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don (AT) dmkraig (DOT) net> wrote: > > > Namaste, one and all. > > > http://newsweek. washingtonpost. com/onfaith/ panelists/ aseem_shukla/ 2010/04/nearly_ twenty_million_ people_in. html > or > http://tinyurl. com/y2a8mvl > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Namaste Donald: An interesting critique. While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/Indus Civilization part of " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back to at least that far. And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism " to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen. I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and its possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with many of the authors perspectives. While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture. -Santo aum shanti shanti shantih. " The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from the Yoga VÄsiá¹£á¹ha On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don wrote: > > > Namaste, one and all. > > > http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\ _twenty_million_people_in.html > or > http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl > > There are some assumptions in this article which create false assumptions. > > > The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a > particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further > " Hinduism. " > > >Arrayed in linear > > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as a > > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures: > > Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures. > > > It would seem that yoga's > > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of > > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion. > > The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan > civilization, pre-dates Hinduism. > > Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a > misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a united, > single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and > beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma. > > > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, > > self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, > > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu > > origins. > > Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui, > acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and many > other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources that > pre-date Hinduism. > > > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain > > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and > > polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings > > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises > > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy > > in which they can take pride. > > The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion and > world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and > ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of > mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully > suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans > learn the truth of Indian history and religions. > > > > > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt > > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the > > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and > > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of > > crass commercialism. > > Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with > similarities. > > As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the altar > of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where there > are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where > preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will > donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the Jordan > or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it. > > > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes > > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly: > > > > > > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a > > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries...The > > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other > > world religions. " > > I would consider this accurate. > > > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is > > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga > > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE. > > I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga was > INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this is > not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual practices > that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu traditions > are far older than the Sanatana Dharma. > > > These > > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other religions > > may as well too! > > Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice of > Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma, just > as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by those > practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we invented > it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and adapt > die out. > > >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this > > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and > > reincarnation--the very foundations of Hindu philosophy--are only > > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own. > > And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were > practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian > culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took > those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of > " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma). > > > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's > > Board) released a position paper > > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's > > appropriation, > > As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans > improve their educational system especially when it comes to world history > and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as > well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the > tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket. > > > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood. > > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of > > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one > > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an > > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or > > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of > > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient. > > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques > > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility--even help > > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on > > holistic healing and wellness. > > I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your foundation > focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than complaining > about the tides. > > > > > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga > > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane > > material world and put one on the path of self-realization--that each > > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold > > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits the > > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its > > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of > > affiliation. > > Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West. In > Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I agree > that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana > Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making denunciations > of other religions and indicate your own ignorance. > > Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy. > > > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of > > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning > > more clients for the yoga studio down the street. > > And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not > simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and > egotistically attached to claiming its origin? > > Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may > help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning. > > Namaste! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 I can sympathize with the sentiments brought up in this discussion. But I'd like to make a few important points. Others are welcome to disagree with me, as I'm sure they will, but I just wanted to put my thoughts on this matter out there. 1) In regard to the supposed origin of yoga in Harappan civilization... There are seals with figures sitting in cross-legged poses, and there are clay figures featuring people sitting in a couple of different postures that we now associate with yoga. But these poses pictured are also standard ways that people sit. The Harappan script has never been deciphered, and besides that, there's really not very much writing that survives. In fact, very, very little. So it's a serious stretch to say that Harappan civilization originated yoga, and in any case that is pure speculation. Nothing can be said with any kind of authority about it. In any case, it wouldn't be yoga, if anything it would be a very early precursor to yoga. 2) The definition of yoga is something that is important here. Yes, people all over the world have been stretching their bodies and meditating in various capacities, but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical milieu of India in the second century BCE. I say effectively because the Yoga Sutras are what these yoga studios typically reference, whether they are conscious of that or not. They are using asanas and philosophies that specifically emerged from Hindu India (recognizing that " Hinduism " is inherently heterodox). Patanjali compiled yoga philosophy into the Yoga Sutras in the 2nd century BCE. Everything we know as " yoga " today springs from that source. Even so, the yoga as presented in yoga studios around the world is largely a product of colonialism and reconstructionism and has only been around in that form for 100-150 years. This has been affirmed by scholars in India, Europe, and the US. What I'm saying is, you can't have it both ways - you can't claim that you're practicing an ancient tradition that has little or no connection with or origin in Hinduism, while also using exclusively Hindu-origin philosophical texts, language, and asanas. And in regard to language, whether you use the Sanskrit names or the English translations, you're still using those terms. " Lord of the Fishes Pose " is still clearly Hindu in origin, even if you're not calling it Matsyendrasana. 3) The bone that is picked here by the HAF is that yoga has been divorced from its essential Hindu nature and origin. This, I believe, is true. However, it's also somewhat revisionist to look at Hinduism as a unified system. I agree with another poster that the use of " Hinduism " and/or " Sanatana Dharma " is completely a matter of semantics. Modern Hinduism owes its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra, Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. Then there's other movements like Lingayatism, which clearly are based in Hinduism but are also anti-Brahminical (it's up for debate whether Lingayats are technically Hindu or not - it's a long-standing debate). Tantra and Bhakti can often be anti-Brahminical, as well, though both also have movements within them that reinforce Brahminical laws. These can all be cast under the umbrella of " Hinduism. " 4) The history of yoga itself has been hijacked by revisionists for at least the last century, both inside and outside of the Hindu religion itself. So that's a whole other complex issues, which David White addresses in his book *Sinister Yogis*. I don't always agree with White's approach or assumptions in his scholarship overall, but the book is worth reading. 5) The HAF are a Hindu human rights group, in case anyone is wondering. 6) The HAF has a point when they complain that yoga has been delinked from Hinduism. I feel the same way about neo-Tantra having been hijacked from Tantra and sensationalized, so that " Tantra " immediately conjures images of new age sex workshops in so many people's minds. When the American Yoga Association claims that yoga has no connection with or origin in Hinduism, they are being at best either completely ignorant or at worst intentionally disingenuous, and either is a problem. In fact, this claim is a marketing ploy to bring in people (mainly Christians) who are skittish about starting a practice that has roots in another religion. 7) The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that " Hinduism " has always been an adaptive, open, changing, heterodox religious tradition. Hinduism has even gone so far as to incorporate Jesus and Buddha as incarnations of Vishnu (not all Hindus, but certainly enough of us that this is a common image). For someone to say that Jesus is their guru but they practice yoga is not anathema to Hinduism when one looks at the several thousand year history of the religion. 8) The original rebuttal here gives the impression that the article's author is suggesting that yoga is only for Hindus, when he states exactly and emphatically the opposite. He states, correctly, that yoga is a gift to humanity for all to experience and practice. Yet, I also agree that yoga has its origins in Hinduism, and to completely divorce yoga from Hinduism is to disenfranchise a spiritual and religious heritage. Does this in turn disenfranchise Hindus? That is open to debate. But it is pretty clear that the reason yoga has been divorced from Hinduism is largely for marketing purposes, to make it more attractive to the average American (predominantly Christian, less frequently Jewish, or other religion or atheist/agnostic) buyer. And that, to me, just isn't kosher. Just a few thoughts on this beautiful Friday morning. jai MAA kamesvari -kulasundari -- Jai Maa! jaimaa.org On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Santo Sengupta <aumshantihwrote: > > > Namaste Donald: > > An interesting critique. > > While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the > word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/Indus Civilization part of > " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are > going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think > Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back > to at least that far. > > And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism " > to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and > spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of > semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be > nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western > world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have > heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen. > > I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and > its > possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this > perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with > many of the authors perspectives. > > While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most > definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be > better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha > yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture. > > -Santo > aum shanti shanti shantih. > " The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from > the Yoga VÄsiá¹£á¹ha > > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don<don%40dmkraig.net>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Namaste, one and all. > > > > > > > http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\ _twenty_million_people_in.html > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl > > > > There are some assumptions in this article which create false > assumptions. > > > > > > The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a > > particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further > > " Hinduism. " > > > > >Arrayed in linear > > > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as > a > > > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures: > > > > Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures. > > > > > It would seem that yoga's > > > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of > > > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion. > > > > The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan > > civilization, pre-dates Hinduism. > > > > Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a > > misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a > united, > > single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and > > beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma. > > > > > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, > > > self-realization--they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, > > > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu > > > origins. > > > > Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui, > > acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and > many > > other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources > that > > pre-date Hinduism. > > > > > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain > > > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and > > > polytheism--the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings > > > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises > > > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy > > > in which they can take pride. > > > > The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion > and > > world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and > > ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of > > mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully > > suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans > > learn the truth of Indian history and religions. > > > > > > > > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt > > > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the > > > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and > > > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of > > > crass commercialism. > > > > Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with > > similarities. > > > > As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the > altar > > of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where > there > > are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where > > preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will > > donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the > Jordan > > or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it. > > > > > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes > > > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly: > > > > > > > > > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a > > > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries...The > > > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other > > > world religions. " > > > > I would consider this accurate. > > > > > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is > > > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga > > > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE. > > > > I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga > was > > INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this > is > > not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual > practices > > that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu > traditions > > are far older than the Sanatana Dharma. > > > > > These > > > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other > religions > > > may as well too! > > > > Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice > of > > Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma, > just > > as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by > those > > practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we > invented > > it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and > adapt > > die out. > > > > >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this > > > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and > > > reincarnation--the very foundations of Hindu philosophy--are only > > > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own. > > > > And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were > > practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian > > culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took > > those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of > > " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma). > > > > > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's > > > Board) released a position paper > > > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's > > > appropriation, > > > > As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans > > improve their educational system especially when it comes to world > history > > and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as > > well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the > > tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket. > > > > > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood. > > > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of > > > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one > > > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an > > > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or > > > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of > > > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient. > > > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques > > > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility--even help > > > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on > > > holistic healing and wellness. > > > > I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your > foundation > > focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than > complaining > > about the tides. > > > > > > > > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga > > > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane > > > material world and put one on the path of self-realization--that each > > > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold > > > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits > the > > > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its > > > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of > > > affiliation. > > > > Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West. > In > > Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I > agree > > that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana > > Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making > denunciations > > of other religions and indicate your own ignorance. > > > > Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy. > > > > > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of > > > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning > > > more clients for the yoga studio down the street. > > > > And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not > > simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and > > egotistically attached to claiming its origin? > > > > Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may > > help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning. > > > > Namaste! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Thank you for your reply. , Santo Sengupta <aumshantih wrote: > > Namaste Donald: > > An interesting critique. > > While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the > word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/Indus Civilization part of > " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are > going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think > Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back > to at least that far. I know of no Jews who claim that " Judaism has been the same for 6,000 years. " Could you tell us which Jewish group claims this? The " roots " of Hinduism do extend back that far, but the practices and beliefs of what is called Hinduism today are so far from those roots that it is often difficult to see them. > And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism " > to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and > spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of > semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be > nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western > world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have > heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen. Actually, I would agree with you in this. However, this is not an email between you and me. I have no doubt that you fully understand this, as do your parents in from Kolkata. But the sad truth is that most Westerners do not know this and think of the Sanatana Dharma as a single faith where people visit great temples and worship cows. > > I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and its > possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this > perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with > many of the authors perspectives. > > While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most > definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be > better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha > yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture. I am deeply concerned with the concept of appropriating cultures from around the world. Some Westerners do this, often pushing and squeezing foreign concepts into their narrow, preconceived ideas. Using a talking stick and saying " Ho, " means that they are adopting Native American spiritual traditions. Practicing Hatha Yoga means they have universalized Yoga and brought it back to its core. This attempted synthesis most often tends to at best minimize the spiritual depths of what is borrowed. Unfortunately, with jet planes, faxes, telephones, the internet and the trend in publishing, I fear this is going to increase. The solution, IMO, is not to decry what has been " appropriated, " but to more fully educate. I would encourage people not to complain, " You're stealing my culture. " Rather, I would suggest that they should use concepts such as Hatha Yoga as an opening to sharing even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Thank you for your wonderful comments. , Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote: > 1) In regard to the supposed origin of yoga in Harappan civilization... > There are seals with figures sitting in cross-legged poses, and there are > clay figures featuring people sitting in a couple of different postures that > we now associate with yoga. But these poses pictured are also standard ways > that people sit. The Harappan script has never been deciphered, and besides > that, there's really not very much writing that survives. In fact, very, > very little. So it's a serious stretch to say that Harappan civilization > originated yoga, and in any case that is pure speculation. Nothing can be > said with any kind of authority about it. In any case, it wouldn't be yoga, > if anything it would be a very early precursor to yoga. I mostly agree with this. I certainly agree that the images imply a precursor to yoga, hence my position that yoga originated there. You are correct that there is not a lot of writing from that civilization, however there is plenty. Further, there are currently some people claiming that they have established an effective translation of the script. See, for example, Decipherment of Indus inscriptions: From megalithic to Harrapan by John Newberry or, The Deciphered Indus Script by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram. At this time, however, there is no scholarly agreement on this. > 2) The definition of yoga is something that is important here. Yes, people > all over the world have been stretching their bodies and meditating in > various capacities, but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of > philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to > practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its > origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical > milieu of India in the second century BCE. I say effectively because the > Yoga Sutras are what these yoga studios typically reference, whether they > are conscious of that or not. They are using asanas and philosophies that > specifically emerged from Hindu India (recognizing that " Hinduism " is > inherently heterodox). Patanjali compiled yoga philosophy into the Yoga > Sutras in the 2nd century BCE. Everything we know as " yoga " today springs > from that source. Even so, the yoga as presented in yoga studios around the > world is largely a product of colonialism and reconstructionism and has only > been around in that form for 100-150 years. This has been affirmed by > scholars in India, Europe, and the US. What I'm saying is, you can't have it > both ways - you can't claim that you're practicing an ancient tradition that > has little or no connection with or origin in Hinduism, while also using > exclusively Hindu-origin philosophical texts, language, and asanas. And in > regard to language, whether you use the Sanskrit names or the English > translations, you're still using those terms. " Lord of the Fishes Pose " is > still clearly Hindu in origin, even if you're not calling it Matsyendrasana. While I certainly agree that modern Yogic practices trace themselves back to Patanjali, I have seen no evidence that he invented them, nor have I seen such a claim by you or anyone else. He compiled what was know (and my guess is he added his own ideas and perhaps advanced on what he compiled--it's what compilers tend to do). It's also very true (and most people, frankly, are unaware of this) that yoga (i.e., Hatha Yoga), as practiced today, is only about a century to 150 years old and due in the West to imperialism and colonialism. Further, although Patanjali is obviously much older, the oldest work focusing on Hatha Yoga is the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, and it's only about 500-600 years old (although based on older works). > 3) The bone that is picked here by the HAF is that yoga has been divorced > from its essential Hindu nature and origin. This, I believe, is true. > However, it's also somewhat revisionist to look at Hinduism as a unified > system. I agree with another poster that the use of " Hinduism " and/or > " Sanatana Dharma " is completely a matter of semantics. Modern Hinduism owes > its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical > schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra, > Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. Then there's > other movements like Lingayatism, which clearly are based in Hinduism but > are also anti-Brahminical (it's up for debate whether Lingayats are > technically Hindu or not - it's a long-standing debate). Tantra and Bhakti > can often be anti-Brahminical, as well, though both also have movements > within them that reinforce Brahminical laws. These can all be cast under the > umbrella of " Hinduism. " I am not denying any of this. However, this is not an email between you and me, it is on an open forum. Most Westerners think of Hinduism as a single, monolithic religion. By stressing its more accurate name, I'm focusing on sharing the concept of so many beautiful traditions that are simply under an umbrella name. Call it " Hinduism " and many people reading this will have made up their minds already as to what it is because of their predetermined mindset. This brings me to a disagreement with you. I would respectfully say that " The bone that is picked here by the HAF " is NOT " that yoga has been divorced from its essential Hindu nature and origin. " If that were their " bone, " I would certainly agree. Rather, from reading the post, it appears that they are complaining that this is the wrong thing to do. Whether it is wrong or not, IMO, is irrelevant. From their post it appears that they are so ego attached to a " Yoga. Ours! " mentality that they are ignoring the chance to educate people on the amazing history and spiritual guidance that has come from India. What I'm suggesting is that instead of trying to stand and say, " No! You can't! " there's much more potential in saying, " And if you think THAT'S great, let me share where it came from and some of the other ideas! " > 4) The history of yoga itself has been hijacked by revisionists for at least > the last century, both inside and outside of the Hindu religion itself. So > that's a whole other complex issues, which David White addresses in his book > *Sinister Yogis*. I don't always agree with White's approach or assumptions > in his scholarship overall, but the book is worth reading. > Unfortunately true. > 5) The HAF are a Hindu human rights group, in case anyone is wondering. > Even Hindu human rights groups can make what I would consider an error in their approach. > 6) The HAF has a point when they complain that yoga has been delinked from > Hinduism. I feel the same way about neo-Tantra having been hijacked from > Tantra and sensationalized, so that " Tantra " immediately conjures images of > new age sex workshops in so many people's minds. When the American Yoga > Association claims that yoga has no connection with or origin in Hinduism, > they are being at best either completely ignorant or at worst intentionally > disingenuous, and either is a problem. In fact, this claim is a marketing > ploy to bring in people (mainly Christians) who are skittish about starting > a practice that has roots in another religion. While I agree with you, I would also have to agree with the AYA that the way they approach yoga it is just exercise. Today, many Christian children color eggs for Easter. The fact that this is an ancient Pagan custom (even the name comes from a Pagan goddess) has no relation to what they're doing today. > 7) The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that " Hinduism " has always > been an adaptive, open, changing, heterodox religious tradition. Hinduism > has even gone so far as to incorporate Jesus and Buddha as incarnations of > Vishnu (not all Hindus, but certainly enough of us that this is a common > image). For someone to say that Jesus is their guru but they practice yoga > is not anathema to Hinduism when one looks at the several thousand year > history of the religion. From a Hindu viewpoint, this is true. From an exclusivist Christian viewpoint, anything not specifically Christian needs to be eliminated from the lives of those Christians. There are literally Christian ministers preaching that Hinduism IS Satanism, and few people object. Perhaps HAF would be better focused on denouncing such lying misrepresentations. > 8) The original rebuttal here gives the impression that the article's author > is suggesting that yoga is only for Hindus, when he states exactly and > emphatically the opposite. He states, correctly, that yoga is a gift to > humanity for all to experience and practice. Yet, I also agree that yoga has > its origins in Hinduism, and to completely divorce yoga from Hinduism is to > disenfranchise a spiritual and religious heritage. Does this in turn > disenfranchise Hindus? That is open to debate. But it is pretty clear that > the reason yoga has been divorced from Hinduism is largely for marketing > purposes, to make it more attractive to the average American (predominantly > Christian, less frequently Jewish, or other religion or atheist/agnostic) > buyer. And that, to me, just isn't kosher. Thank you. I don't think it so much " disenfranchises " Hindus so much as continues with allowing the current Western misunderstanding on the nature of Hinduism. This allows Westerners to continue thinking that people of India (primarily) are living in jungle huts and are primarily uneducated and unproductive people who sit around all day worshiping cows. It harms Hindus, Indians, and the people with the false beliefs who are losing their jobs to the highly educated and industrialized workers in India. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2010 Report Share Posted April 24, 2010 It is not my wont to get into any polemics. Madam Kulasundari notes in her post " but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical milieu of India in the second century BCE " . Let us understaqnd very very clearly that yoga does not owe its origin to Patanjali. He only codified existing instructions into aphorisms. Let us also not confuse rajayoga with hatha yoga. Only reference that Patanjali gives to postures is 'sthira-sukham aasanam'. He does give out a few sutras on praanaayaama. Lord Krishna talks of sankhya yoga, karmayoga, bhaktiyoga etc. All of these could not owe their origin to Patanjali. As far as hathayoga is concerned, there is a separate Tamil system completely independent of 'Sanskritised systems'. The squabble seems to verge on intellectual property rights. We as Hindus (I am talking of majority mainstream Hindus like myself) have miserably failed to follow the faith in its true spirit, do not understand the profundity of its philosophical depth and have failed to pass on the treasure systematically to our children. Even if I happen to be a great scholar, my guesses on the origin of things Indian will at best be conjectures. Another point I would like to make here would be concerning what is brahminical. Just because a few Westerners and a few so called secular scholars brand certain things brahminical and certain things non-brahminical, it is not necessary we accept it. This difference has been made historically with a pointed to view to fostering divisionist strategy and brand both profane (from missionaries' point of view). I think it would be far more appropriate that we call this vedic system and non-vedic or extra-vedic system. Repeatedly rubbing the word brahmin with what connotation it has acquired in contemporary times causes brahmins like us to bear it with a grin. We also must recognise and accept the fact that brahmins have had a significant and critical role in preserving the bulk of the body of Hindu philosophy. My intention in penning these lines is not to pick up an argument with anyone nor find fault. I have no skills in this area nor in getting into academic logomachies though I am a student of Indian Tarka system. JR ________________________________ Kulasundari Devi <sundari Fri, April 23, 2010 10:21:57 PM Re: Critique of HAF article on the 'Theft of Yoga' I can sympathize with the sentiments brought up in this discussion. But I'd like to make a few important points. Others are welcome to disagree with me, as I'm sure they will, but I just wanted to put my thoughts on this matter out there. 1) In regard to the supposed origin of yoga in Harappan civilization. .. There are seals with figures sitting in cross-legged poses, and there are clay figures featuring people sitting in a couple of different postures that we now associate with yoga. But these poses pictured are also standard ways that people sit. The Harappan script has never been deciphered, and besides that, there's really not very much writing that survives. In fact, very, very little. So it's a serious stretch to say that Harappan civilization originated yoga, and in any case that is pure speculation. Nothing can be said with any kind of authority about it. In any case, it wouldn't be yoga, if anything it would be a very early precursor to yoga. 2) The definition of yoga is something that is important here. Yes, people all over the world have been stretching their bodies and meditating in various capacities, but yoga *as a specific, unified, Sanskritized system of philosophy and practice* (that is, the yoga that these yoga studios claim to practice, while also divorcing themselves from Hinduism) effectively has its origins with Patanjali and specifically in the religious and philosophical milieu of India in the second century BCE. I say effectively because the Yoga Sutras are what these yoga studios typically reference, whether they are conscious of that or not. They are using asanas and philosophies that specifically emerged from Hindu India (recognizing that " Hinduism " is inherently heterodox). Patanjali compiled yoga philosophy into the Yoga Sutras in the 2nd century BCE. Everything we know as " yoga " today springs from that source. Even so, the yoga as presented in yoga studios around the world is largely a product of colonialism and reconstructionism and has only been around in that form for 100-150 years. This has been affirmed by scholars in India, Europe, and the US. What I'm saying is, you can't have it both ways - you can't claim that you're practicing an ancient tradition that has little or no connection with or origin in Hinduism, while also using exclusively Hindu-origin philosophical texts, language, and asanas. And in regard to language, whether you use the Sanskrit names or the English translations, you're still using those terms. " Lord of the Fishes Pose " is still clearly Hindu in origin, even if you're not calling it Matsyendrasana. 3) The bone that is picked here by the HAF is that yoga has been divorced from its essential Hindu nature and origin. This, I believe, is true. However, it's also somewhat revisionist to look at Hinduism as a unified system. I agree with another poster that the use of " Hinduism " and/or " Sanatana Dharma " is completely a matter of semantics. Modern Hinduism owes its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra, Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. Then there's other movements like Lingayatism, which clearly are based in Hinduism but are also anti-Brahminical (it's up for debate whether Lingayats are technically Hindu or not - it's a long-standing debate). Tantra and Bhakti can often be anti-Brahminical, as well, though both also have movements within them that reinforce Brahminical laws. These can all be cast under the umbrella of " Hinduism. " 4) The history of yoga itself has been hijacked by revisionists for at least the last century, both inside and outside of the Hindu religion itself. So that's a whole other complex issues, which David White addresses in his book *Sinister Yogis*. I don't always agree with White's approach or assumptions in his scholarship overall, but the book is worth reading. 5) The HAF are a Hindu human rights group, in case anyone is wondering. 6) The HAF has a point when they complain that yoga has been delinked from Hinduism. I feel the same way about neo-Tantra having been hijacked from Tantra and sensationalized, so that " Tantra " immediately conjures images of new age sex workshops in so many people's minds. When the American Yoga Association claims that yoga has no connection with or origin in Hinduism, they are being at best either completely ignorant or at worst intentionally disingenuous, and either is a problem. In fact, this claim is a marketing ploy to bring in people (mainly Christians) who are skittish about starting a practice that has roots in another religion. 7) The thing that everyone seems to be missing is that " Hinduism " has always been an adaptive, open, changing, heterodox religious tradition. Hinduism has even gone so far as to incorporate Jesus and Buddha as incarnations of Vishnu (not all Hindus, but certainly enough of us that this is a common image). For someone to say that Jesus is their guru but they practice yoga is not anathema to Hinduism when one looks at the several thousand year history of the religion. 8) The original rebuttal here gives the impression that the article's author is suggesting that yoga is only for Hindus, when he states exactly and emphatically the opposite. He states, correctly, that yoga is a gift to humanity for all to experience and practice. Yet, I also agree that yoga has its origins in Hinduism, and to completely divorce yoga from Hinduism is to disenfranchise a spiritual and religious heritage. Does this in turn disenfranchise Hindus? That is open to debate. But it is pretty clear that the reason yoga has been divorced from Hinduism is largely for marketing purposes, to make it more attractive to the average American (predominantly Christian, less frequently Jewish, or other religion or atheist/agnostic) buyer. And that, to me, just isn't kosher. Just a few thoughts on this beautiful Friday morning. jai MAA kamesvari -kulasundari -- Jai Maa! jaimaa.org On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Santo Sengupta <aumshantih (AT) gmail (DOT) com>wrote: > > > Namaste Donald: > > An interesting critique. > > While I see your point, I feel you too are being as dogmatic about what the > word " Hinduism " means. Is the Mohenjo-Daro/ Indus Civilization part of > " Hinduism " ? One can argue for and against it. Frankly, if the Jews are > going to claim that Judaism has been the same for 6000 years, I think > Hindu's have the right to say that the roots of their tradition extend back > to at least that far. > > And yes, " Sanatana Dharma " is a much better turn of phrase than " Hinduism " > to describe the rich panoply of spiritual traditions that originated and > spread from the Indian subcontinent - but frankly, that's just a matter of > semantics. " Hinduism " = " Sanatana Dharma " , and vice versa. It would be > nice to get the term " Sanatana Dharma " to be as familiar to the western > world (or even in India - I doubt my parents, both born in Calcutta, have > heard it..) , but it's unlikely to happen. > > I do understand the threat of fundamentalist religion of any stripe, and > its > possible that this " Hindu American Foundation " suffers from this > perspective. Sadly, I don't know much about them, but I *do* agree with > many of the authors perspectives. > > While Yoga is not *exclusively* a Hindu or Indian practice, its roots most > definitely are. I am in agreement with you in that it would likely be > better to educate Americans about Hinduism rather than rail about how hatha > yoga exercise practices are " appropriating " our culture. > > -Santo > aum shanti shanti shantih. > " The world is like the impression left by the telling of a story. " - from > the Yoga VÄsiá¹£á¹ha > > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Donald Michael <don (AT) dmkraig (DOT) net<don%40dmkraig. net>> > wrote: > > > > > > > Namaste, one and all. > > > > > > > http://newsweek. washingtonpost. com/onfaith/ panelists/ aseem_shukla/ 2010/04/nearly_ twenty_million_ people_in. html > > or > > http://tinyurl. com/y2a8mvl > > > > There are some assumptions in this article which create false > assumptions. > > > > > > The author [Aseem Shukla, co-founder Hindu American Foundation] has a > > particular dogmatic point to make, following his intent to further > > " Hinduism. " > > > > >Arrayed in linear > > > patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as > a > > > mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures: > > > > Actually, many teachers never use any Sanskrit names for postures. > > > > > It would seem that yoga's > > > mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of > > > dedicated disciples seeking more from the very font of their passion. > > > > The practice of yoga, as shown in images dating back to the Harrapan > > civilization, pre-dates Hinduism. > > > > Calling the numerous faiths with some similarities " Hinduism " presents a > > misrepresentation of the reality. It makes Hinduism appear to be a > united, > > single system. Rather, it consists of a magnificent panoply of faiths and > > beliefs, more accurately called Sanatana Dharma. > > > > > Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, > > > self-realization- -they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, > > > mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu > > > origins. > > > > Their origins are certainly Indian, as are martial arts, feng shui, > > acupuncture, cupping, astrology, astronomy, advanced mathematics, and > many > > other scientific and spiritual practices. However they all have sources > that > > pre-date Hinduism. > > > > > It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain > > > that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and > > > polytheism-- the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings > > > lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises > > > millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy > > > in which they can take pride. > > > > The ignorance taught in American schools includes comparative religion > and > > world history. It is an embarrassment created by morbid xenophobes and > > ranting religious extremists attempting to make their world views part of > > mass culture. They have succeeded quite well, and I would respectfully > > suggest that your foundation would be better served by helping Americans > > learn the truth of Indian history and religions. > > > > > > > > Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt > > > intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the > > > facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and > > > others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of > > > crass commercialism. > > > > Hinduism is NOT a single tradition. It is a wide group of faiths with > > similarities. > > > > As to the Sanatana Dharma's spiritual wealth being offered up to the > altar > > of crass commercialism, welcome to America! Welcome to a country where > there > > are drive-in churches for people to lazy to get out of their cars, where > > preachers give away blessed 2 " squares of " sacred " cloth for a " free will > > donation, " and you can buy a genuine cross filled with water from the > Jordan > > or a crystal with the Lord's Prayer etched on it. > > > > > The American Yoga Association, on its Web site, completes > > > this delinking of yoga from Hinduism thusly: > > > > > > > > > " The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a > > > misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries... The > > > techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other > > > world religions. " > > > > I would consider this accurate. > > > > > So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings is > > > now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga > > > Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd Century BCE. > > > > I respectfully disagree. Your unwritten contention, here, is that Yoga > was > > INVENTED by Patanjali, not merely codified in the Sutras. Obviously, this > is > > not true. Yoga is far older than Patanjali just as the spiritual > practices > > that were often simplified and bowdlerized in the various Hindu > traditions > > are far older than the Sanatana Dharma. > > > > > These > > > deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other > religions > > > may as well too! > > > > Again I would respectfully disagree. There is no doubt that the practice > of > > Yoga was nurtured and expanded by those following the Sanatana Dharma, > just > > as the system of energy paths in Ayurveda was nurtured and expanded by > those > > practicing acupuncture in China. It is not appropriated saying " we > invented > > it. " It is simply evolved and adapted. Things which do not evolve and > adapt > > die out. > > > > >Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this > > > measure, soon we will read as to how karma, dharma and > > > reincarnation- -the very foundations of Hindu philosophy-- are only > > > ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own. > > > > And yet, that's exactly what has happened. All of those concepts were > > practiced before and by other cultures with no contact to India. Indian > > culture, and the magnificence of what you lump together as Hinduism, took > > those concepts and expanded them and nurtured them, but they are part of > > " Eternal Law " (the exact English translation of Sanatana Dharma). > > > > > The Hindu American Foundation (Disclosure: I sit on the Foundation's > > > Board) released a position paper > > > on this issue earlier this year. The brief condemns yoga's > > > appropriation, > > > > As I wrote earlier, your efforts would be better spent helping Americans > > improve their educational system especially when it comes to world > history > > and comparative religion. This is just a petty, minor issue. You might as > > well complain about people chanting " Om. " You're trying to hold back the > > tides of the ocean with nothing but a bucket. > > > > > but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood. > > > Yoga is identified today only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of > > > yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one > > > part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an > > > eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or > > > salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of > > > yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient. > > > Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques > > > will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility- -even help > > > children with Attention Deficit Disorder--but will miss the mark on > > > holistic healing and wellness. > > > > I mostly agree with this. I would suggest, therefore, that your > foundation > > focus on sharing the spiritual aspects of Hatha Yoga rather than > complaining > > about the tides. > > > > > > > > But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga > > > will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane > > > material world and put one on the path of self-realization- -that each > > > individual is a spark of the Divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold > > > on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths--that their God awaits > the > > > arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate--since yoga shows its > > > own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers regardless of > > > affiliation. > > > > Again, this speaks to the lack of comparative religion here in the West. > In > > Judaism, ALL who live good lives, not a " chosen few, " reach heaven. I > agree > > that Westerners, especially Americans, know little about the Sanatana > > Dharma, but really, you can't complain about that while making > denunciations > > of other religions and indicate your own ignorance. > > > > Well, people can do that and actually do that, but it's called hypocrisy. > > > > > Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of > > > their spiritual heritage--not sell out for the expediency of winning > > > more clients for the yoga studio down the street. > > > > And yet, you haven't given one reason why " Hindus must " do this. Why not > > simply spread the wisdom and spirituality without being so strongly and > > egotistically attached to claiming its origin? > > > > Perhaps you should practice a little Yoga==of any kind--yourself. It may > > help you break through those kleshas, karma, and conditioning. > > > > Namaste! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 , Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote: >Modern Hinduism owes its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of different philosophical schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra, Bhakti... and each of these had their own complex histories. > Namaste Sri Kulasundari ji, I really like this point. I think that it is most true of Hinduism, but would you not say that it is also true of nearly every modern belief system and practice? I find myself in the company of Christians who either believe that they are " back to basics " like " the early church " or who believe that their modern ways are the " revealed truth, " so that they do not have to do the heavy lifting of learning what was actually happening about 2000 years ago. In either case, my observation is that their practice is, as you put it, the result of " complex negotiations " of time, culture, philosophies and technological revolutions that changed everyone. Which brings me to a question. In my Pagan practice I say that " now " is completely legitimate and while we should study the past with reverence and seriousness, the practices that we arrive at in our present time and with devotion, are (in Paganism only I'm saying) completely legitimate. What is not legitimate (imo) is to pretend an orthodoxy to a past that is buried by time, change and loss of continuity. We should do the heavy lifting, sure, of studying and looking for the truths of the past. Yet, to me to pretend that I am practicing as my ancestors practiced is inherently false. Because when they were practicing, worshiping, learning and writing... what they were creating for us was entirely new at that time. Possibly heretical to the time before. And if they were in the presence of divine inspiration, it is possible for us. But that's Paganism. While working with the acharyaji at the temple on the Devi Stuti he commented that there are 4 pillars. The mother introduces the father the father introduces the guru and the guru introduces god.... and without the guru there is no god. I'm not certain that I agree with that. I think I believe that everyone can have a direct unmediated experience of the divine. I also believe that studying an established " way " is very difficult and much helped by appropriate courses of study and good teachers. And very beneficial. Complex negotiations indeed. Blessings, pr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 Wonderful thoughts. Incidentally, I owe the term " complex negotiation " to Hugh Urban, who uses that term a lot in his latest book (which is brilliant, by the way). In regards to Pagan practice, you're absolutely right. Paganism is a new religion, and even reconstructionists are not practicing the same rituals that their ancestors were. However, in Hinduism it's a bit different. We have fairly detailed, quite precise written record of Vedic srauta rituals, with an unbroken line of transmission, and these rituals are still performed today. It's arguable whether the meaning behind those rituals has changed or not - I would argue that it has, certainly, as meaning was sacrificed for memorization, and the sound of the mantra for some time became more important than the inner meaning. This is documented. But much of modern temple and Tantric ritual has evolved over the last few millenia and especially the last several centuries, and incorporates various elements. But one can't really compare this to modern Paganism at all (and you weren't, I just want to make it clear that there is no comparison). Christianity, Judaism, etc. - these have all evolved tremendously over time, as has Hinduism, and you are definitely correct in that religions around the world in the modern context are products of the cultural, social, and political forces that shaped them over time. In this sense, Paganism is no different - it has rapidly evolved in the last seventy or so years, and continues to do so. I'm sure there are plenty of Indo-pagans on this list. I'm going to speak in generalities here, which is always dangerous territory. The effectiveness is generally more important than the antiquity of ritual. That being said, ritual that has been performed in the same way for hundreds or thousands of years gains an efficacy of its own, and effective rituals tend to endure, the product of trial and error (or the product of lots and lots of testing of revealed wisdom). In Assam, the various rulers recognized that Brahminical (yes, I use that word intentionally - Brahminical/orthodox temple worship is not necessarily Vedic worship, though it may have Vedic elements, and it is performed by male Brahmin priests almost exclusively) worship and tribal (often antinomian) worship of the same deities were both effective. These elements became combined at Kamakhya, and codified in Kaula and other forms of left-hand Shakta and Shaiva worship practiced in Assam down the ages (greatly reduced, of course, by the Vaishnava reform movement). The four pillars you speak of are definitely one way to look at the progression and dynamic of relationship between self and God/dess. The guru is important in Tantric worship because the guru teaches the tried-and-true methods of attaining total realization of the Self, which is total realization of oneness. Without that guidance, it is extremely difficult (typically impossible) to attain on one's own. The Western (especially Pagan) concept of a God experience is different than the documented Tantric experience of God, which is to say, having a religious experience - which can be achieved fairly simply by almost anyone - is not the same as realization or Kundalini or enlightenment, which are on a totally different level. However, the reliance on the guru can be used as a troubling power dynamic, which is why it's extremely important to form that relationship very carefully. It's not something to be taken lightly (though plenty devotees do, perhaps not understanding the relationship). From a Western philosophical point of view (steeped in Cartesian dualism and Freudian influence), saying that there is no God without guru can feel like a disempowering ego trip. But from the perspective of deity as inherently grounded in relationship (i.e. there is no Shakti without Shiva and vice versa - the relationship is inherent and inseparable), it makes perfect sense and also helps one to understand the relationship between the self and the Self, or the Self and God. As I say always, if one has no interest in gurus (or cannot find one that is appropriate), one should become a bhakta. If one wants to be a Tantric and learn sadhana, the guru is indispensable, for a host of reasons. jai MA kamesvari -kulasundari Sri Kamakhya Mahavidya Mandir www.kamakhyamandir.org On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:17 PM, prainbow61 <paulie-rainbow wrote: > > > > > <%40>, > Kulasundari Devi <sundari wrote: > >Modern Hinduism owes its origins to the complex negotiation of lots of > different philosophical schools and movements - Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, > Vaisesika, Vedanta, Tantra, Bhakti... and each of these had their own > complex histories. > > > > Namaste Sri Kulasundari ji, > > I really like this point. I think that it is most true of Hinduism, but > would you not say that it is also true of nearly every modern belief system > and practice? > > I find myself in the company of Christians who either believe that they are > " back to basics " like " the early church " or who believe that their modern > ways are the " revealed truth, " so that they do not have to do the heavy > lifting of learning what was actually happening about 2000 years ago. > > In either case, my observation is that their practice is, as you put it, > the result of " complex negotiations " of time, culture, philosophies and > technological revolutions that changed everyone. > > Which brings me to a question. > > In my Pagan practice I say that " now " is completely legitimate and while we > should study the past with reverence and seriousness, the practices that we > arrive at in our present time and with devotion, are (in Paganism only I'm > saying) completely legitimate. What is not legitimate (imo) is to pretend an > orthodoxy to a past that is buried by time, change and loss of continuity. > > We should do the heavy lifting, sure, of studying and looking for the > truths of the past. > > Yet, to me to pretend that I am practicing as my ancestors practiced is > inherently false. > > Because when they were practicing, worshiping, learning and writing... what > they were creating for us was entirely new at that time. Possibly heretical > to the time before. > > And if they were in the presence of divine inspiration, it is possible for > us. > > But that's Paganism. > > While working with the acharyaji at the temple on the Devi Stuti he > commented that there are 4 pillars. The mother introduces the father the > father introduces the guru and the guru introduces god.... and without the > guru there is no god. > > I'm not certain that I agree with that. > > I think I believe that everyone can have a direct unmediated experience of > the divine. > > I also believe that studying an established " way " is very difficult and > much helped by appropriate courses of study and good teachers. > > And very beneficial. > > Complex negotiations indeed. > > Blessings, > > pr > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Yoga, aurveda, vaastu,meditation, acupressure were all Indian practices for a good , healthy life and attain salvation in this birth through development of body, mind and spirit and did not belong to Hindu religion . There was no religion at all and 'Hinduism' as such came into being after the invaders from Persia came in with totally a new 'religion' and then the European colonial rulers. Till then all the above were freely exchanged as Indians believe in free sharing of knowledge . In fact the exchanges between Indians and Chinese were so frequent -specially with flourishing Nalanda and Taxila universities in the BC era, TCM,fengshui, accupuncture were identical and we cannot say which came from where. Intellectual property is a new concept of the west and the eastern cultures are still shocked by this crude commercialization of knowledge of our fore fathers. Indian and Chinese need not worry. Despite crass greed of some, this adoption is spreading our soft power as America passed the MacDonald and Hollywood. In the process if the world is to become a global village with all considered equal that is the utopia we are all earning for right? Let us continue to believe in our culture not religion as such .Once others start adopting them they too will transform to think the way we do. Till then lets be patient and be what we are Rama On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Donald Michael <don wrote: > > http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/aseem_shukla/2010/04/nearly\ _twenty_million_people_in.html > or > http://tinyurl.com/y2a8mvl > > There are some assumptions in this article which create false assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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