Guest guest Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Namaste Henny, I was touched by your post. I would like to offer you my point of view. 'But I struggle with this: although I know that to love God is all, no matter the name or form we choose. But is it possible to combine two 'languages' for the simple devotee without becoming hopelessly confused? " Yes, you are right to Love God is the essential point. However, there is a major difference between Christianity and Hinduism. To be a Christian is to accept the Ten Commandments of God. One of those is that " You shall have no other gods before me " . To Honor the Christian God, and to at the same time Honor Durga Ma, Shiva, Lakshmi, etc.. is in truth, blasphemy of the Christian God. It is what a Satanist would do. To Honor the Christian God, from a Hindu perspective is nothing, it is just one of the many faces of God. To interpret the Christian scriptures according to Hinduism is also wrong. There is an initiatory linage in Christianity, a Tradition just like there is in Hinduism. One cannot be true to both, for Christianities very understanding of God is so very different from that of Hinduism. To make only one point, in Christianity, the World is not God, it is not even a part of God. Whereas in Hinduism this very World is the Living Body OF God. They are in truth, from the ground up, two completely different religions. " Is it the right thing to do to listen to both voices and give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? To sing with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite Lord's Prayer and the Guru Gita? " The answer depends on whether or not you are a Christian or a Hindu? If in your Heart of Hearts you are a Christian, the answer is clearly defined, NO. Likewise if in your depths you are a Hindu, then the answer is also clearly defined, YES. " Or is this desire to make both worlds one, to integrate those parts, the equivalent of the gold watch given by our parents, which, although beautiful in itself and presented with the best intentions, is best thrown away before one gets carried away? " It was the Ego Attachment to the gold watch that was wrong, not the Gold Watch. So look deep and see. If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Christian, then let go, go home, take what you have learned and express it to the depths of your soul. If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Hindu, then realize this is God's way, you are meant to have these feelings, so that you may transcend into the deep mystical truth, which is that everyone and everything is the Divine Glory Of God. Until you have this deep experience while living in your very flesh, then you honor the Christian God and Saints as one of the many manifestations of the ONE LIVING AND TRUE GOD. I grew up in a Christian household. I have deeply contemplated the Christian religion and knowing full well the results of my actions, I have formally renounced the Christian religion. Today Christianity is nothing more than a Mythology to me. I am a Shaivite, I live a life of Love, peace, unity and Consciousness, I play with Shiva, he twinkles in the stars, moves in the wind, flows through the waters, smiles in my child's eyes, and sharing that blessing with my fellow brothers and sisters is what its all about. Please forgive me if I have hurt you in any way by what I have said, and thank you for your time, occasionally I hit a tree. I wish you peace Nickolas > ---- > > henny_v_i > 03/09/07 14:42:11 > > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: Guru-disciple relationship > > Dear Vish, Tanmaya and all, > > the story about the watch has given me much food for thought. > Especially the part where it says: " Then, one day he suddenly left the > monastery. There was no particular reason; it just seemed to him to be > the right thing to do. " > Lately, I have had some doubts of my own and perhaps it is a good > thing to put them on the table now, before they become too big to > handle and running away seems the right thing to do. I hope those who > read this will understand I do not mean to be disrespectful to Shree > Maa or Swamiji, or their teachings, in any way. > Over the past year or so, I have made an effort to familiarize myself > with the teachings and practices Shree Maa and Swamiji so generously > share with us. I learnt how to do puja, how to recite, how to chant. I > read most of the books, and listened to Maa's songs all the time. I > learned to love Her and Swamiji more and more. So I was overjoyed that > now with the webcam, I could finally see the celebrations and attend > classes. > But now a strange thing has happened: to watch the celebrations did > not make me particularly happy. It rather made me sad, as I was > shocked to discover. Partly, this was because I could not physically > be there, and felt isolated at my desk on my own, but for the greater > part it was that I felt an outsider in another way. I felt as if I had > tried to learn a new language and suddenly realized I would never be > able to pass for a native speaker. As if a gap had appeared inside > which I could not cross. And as the days passed, and more celebrations > and classes followed, I found myself longing for the crisp cool sounds > of Gregorian chant and for the 'language' of the tradition I was > raised in. I longed for the stories I know and for the familiar words. > I felt homesick for the psalms and the saints who have inspired me > through the years, and instead of Maa Durga on Her lion, in meditation > I thought of the Mother of God crowned with Glory. And as I performed > puja, every word acquired new meaning, because it made perfect sense > applied both to Shiva and to the Lord Jesus. I saw Maa reflected in > Mary, Mary in Maa. > Now, recently it has been said here (by you, Vish?) that Maa > celebrates Christmas and Eastern which as much devotion as Shivaratri > or other festivals. I have seen Swamiji perform both puja and mass at > Christmas. But They know things that I do not and Their consciousness > embraces all. There is no conflict. But I struggle with this: although > I know that to love God is all, no matter the name or form we choose. > But is it possible to combine two 'languages' for the simple devotee > without becoming hopelessly confused? Once a member of this family > told me it is better to stick to one tradition, at least if you mean > business (I paraphrase), and I understand why this is so. But the > heart has its own ideas and has started to speak now in this language, > now in that. Is it the right thing to do to listen to both voices and > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? To sing > with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite Lord's Prayer > and the Guru Gita? Or is this desire to make both worlds one, to > integrate those parts, the equivalent of the gold watch given by our > parents, which, although beautiful in itself and presented with the > best intentions, is best thrown away before one gets carried away? > > I would be very happy to hear the thoughts of my brothers and sisters > on this matter and I wonder if perhaps someone else, coming from a > Christian background, has had the same experience. > > with love, > Henny > > , " inspectionconnection108 " > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > Dear Tanmaya, > > > > You never told that story before. It made me feel sad too. I have > > observed the Guru put tremendous love and attention on their > > disciples. Then, one day, for no reason I can fathom, the disciple > > departs. The Master gives and gives, but, if the student stops > > receiving, the connection is severed. > > The ego is so crafty. We must be so vigilant and stay in contact > with > > the Master, no matter how confused we become, because, the Master > > holds the key. They will always see thru the clouds of delusion and > > can remove our doubts. As long as we want them to. > > > > Jai Maa Jai Swami > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , " ty_maa " <dsjames@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > " No idea how crafty " . > > > > > > Dear Vishweshwar, > > > > > > I'd like to share a story (maybe I told it before long back) about > the > > > career of a monastic brother. > > > > > > This brother had all the good qualities: he could meditate, he > knew > > > Sanskrit, he was a good singer of devotional songs, he was very > > > personable--and the favorite of all the visiting abbotts. He was > > > generally thought to be a sure success in spirtiual life. > > > > > > Although, like the others, he had only limited communication with > his > > > family in the outside world, once, on his birthday, he walked into > the > > > abbott's room to joyfully show his Guru the new watch which his > parents > > > had just sent him as a gift. > > > > > > To his suprise and chagrin , the Guru quietly looked up for a > moment, > > > and then, suddenly and forcefully pointiing to the corner of his > room, > > > said, " throw it in the wastebasket-- now! > > > > > > The brother was unable to speak, he was so dumbfounded by the > order. He > > > very slowly backed out of the room and silently went up the stairs > to > > > his own room to ponder what had just happened. He knew that he had > > > disobeyed his Guru; and that caused him great sorrow. But he also > > > thought that the order his Guru had given him was so outlandish > and so > > > unreasonable that he gradually began to rationalize his response. > > > > > > As time passed, the Guru was as loving and kind to him as > > > ever--although, it gradually became apparent to the brother that > the > > > Guru's conversation with him was on a more general, even somewhat > > > superficial, level than before. His Guru no longer spoke to him > about > > > his spiritual life and training; rather, he conversed with him > more as > > > he did to visitors-- about their families, the state of the world, > and > > > so forth. > > > > > > This hurt the brother; and he was wise enough to understand that > he had > > > broken a special relationship between himself and his Guru by his > > > disobedience;. Nevertheless, he couldn't bring himself to return > to the > > > Guru's room and dispose of the watch which his parents had so > lovingly > > > sent him for his birthday, as he was certain he must do to set > right his > > > mistake. Why was the Guru so unreasonable? It was only a watch! > There > > > was no danger--it was not something worldly after all-just a > useful tool > > > like many other brothers wore. > > > > > > Things went on like this for a while; and then the watch stopped. > This > > > upset the brother very much because it was expensive and still > > > practically new. And he was quite sure the Abbott would not budget > for a > > > watch repair given the circumstances. In any case, he didn't want > to > > > bring the subject up. So, after some thought, he decided to go to > the > > > library and get a book on watch repair. Which he did. > > > > > > To his great delight, the brother found that he was indeed able to > > > repair the watch using the book, and that it again was running and > > > keeping perfect time. And it didn't cost anybody a thing. In fact, > he > > > was so happy about his success that he offered to repair another > > > brother's watch that had lately stopped--and he was successful > with that > > > one too! > > > > > > He began to think that he could be of useful service to the > monastery by > > > this means, and he was soon studying more about the workings of > watches, > > > and working on them late into the night. He didn't do this during > the > > > normal hours because he still thought that his Guru might > disapprove. > > > > > > Then, one day he suddenly left the monastery. There was no > particular > > > reason; it just seemed to him to be the right thing to do. The > Swamis > > > and his peers were suprised and disappointed, but there was > nothing they > > > could say to change his mind. So, he left and got a job in a > nearby > > > hardware store. After that, he joined one of the armed services. > > > > > > When he was released from the service, he used his G.I. loan to > go to > > > the University at Berleley for a degree in engineering. Before > long, > > > after graduating, he found himself in Silicon Valley, where he > soon > > > started a company which manufactured a computer chip of his own > design. > > > And he sold a lot of them--a whole lot. > > > > > > In fact, soon, though still quite a young man, he had become a > > > multimillionare. > > > > > > I had the opportunity to see him once. One day, when I was paying > a > > > visit to his old ashram he also stopped by that day for the first > time > > > after leaving. He drove up in an expensive red sports cars, and a > pretty > > > blond girl waited in the car while he entered the ashram for a few > > > minutes. > > > > > > All the Swamis and brothers greeted him and spoke in a very > friendly way > > > about his successful life and other things in general. After a > short > > > visit he drove off, and the brothers returned to their various > tasks. > > > > > > I can't exactly say why, but for some time afterward I felt a > great > > > emptiness and loneliness somewhere inside. > > > It couldn't be for the young man who had just driven off in his > red > > > sports car because he was full of joy and his life was exciting > and > > > before him. Nor could my sadness have been for the brothers; they > very > > > soon forgot him in their tasks and spiritual practice. > > > > > > Maybe it was for the old Abbott and Guru--who saw more than he > could > > > explain, but who could only speak his Truth as he saw it, even as > he > > > knew that it could not change what was to be. > > > > > > Yes, the loneliness I felt must have been for the old Abbott who > had > > > lost his monastic son. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > A perfect statement. Action, either for thee or me. > > > > I remember once talking to Maa about some drama my ego was > creating. > > > > I said I could not believe how crafty the ego was. Maa said, in > > > > essense, " you have not idea how crafty " . > > > > I remember that often, in fact daily, as I watch my small self > get me > > > > into one problem after another. > > > > Fortunately, She is there to catch me when I fall, and She > encourages > > > > me to get up, dust off, and get back on the bucking bronco. > > > > How truly blessed to have Her as a Guru and Mother. > > > > > > > > Jai Ma Jai Swami > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , shreemaadevotee@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Daily Reflection > > > > > March 3 - Spirituality > > > > > > > > > > Every action that we produce in life has two possibilities. > It will > > > > be for > > > > > me or for Thee. Either I am acting motivated by selfishness > or I am > > > > acting > > > > > motivated by surrender. There are some really fine shades of > gray > > > > where we think > > > > > we are surrendering, but are actually enhancing our egotism. > > > > > > > > > > from The Guru and the Goddess > > > > > Copyright 1995, 1998 Devi Mandir Publications > > > > > Third Edition > > > > > www.shreemaa.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Dear Henny, Thanks very much for starting this very interesting thread. A few weeks ago I received an email in celebration of RamaKrishna's birthday, part of the mail said the Paramahansa's " experienced all religions as a single spectrum of wisdom and devotion, as a communion of the Divine with the Divine in which worshipper and worshipped emerged from the same ultimate Consciousness. " In responding to the writer, I shared the fact that I was wondering whether there were any members of the forum attending orthodox religions while practicing the " Hindu " way of life. I guess the thought surfaced because I do on occasion attend an Anglican church when I feed the need to join with others to sing to God. I would arise at the usual early morning hour and commence Sadhana, attend 6:30 service and on returning home perform puja. Though being raised in the orthodox religion, I can very much identify with Nicholas' words – To honour the " Christian God " from a Hindu perspective is just another face of God. " This is like Ty- maa's " in my Father's house there are many mansions " . The teachings of Beloved Shree Maa and Swamiji has given me a much clearer understanding of the " Christian teachings " . We have a clearly define goal and path in their teachings which they in turn exemplify. This makes all the difference to me as someone who lives in the West there is not that do as i say and not as i do attitude. Thanks again Henny. I pray Divine Mother's guidance for you. Love, Kalia PS, hope i did not rattle on an that the words above make sense.) Interpretations of scripture vary, depending on whether > the one speaking has taken a bath in one of the large and broad > streams within Christianity or in the deep and hidden ones. What some > Christians would think `wrong', others would not. Several eminent > Christians in the past have tested the waters of the Eastern rivers > of Wisdom and found great value there. And where some may consider the > world to be God's creation fallen in sin, other Christians do > recognize the universe as the Body of God. It is true, there is a > tradition, but many of the faithful do not realize how rich and > diverse their tradition actually is. For some, the Christian and Hindu > paths are far apart, for others, they come very close and lead to the > same destination. > Secondly; I personally am not so much concerned with `isms' and I do > not seek approval from any denomination nor do I particularly wish to > belong to one. The notion `Christian God' is not one I believe in or > even understand; to me there is only one God, period. To me, the `thou > shalt have no other gods before me' means precisely that: to recognize > always the One behind the different representations. No religious > tradition, valuable as it may be, is capable of expressing the > > > , " Nickolas " <lordpyrocrow@> > wrote: > > > > Namaste Henny, > > > > I was touched by your post. > > I would like to offer you my point of view. > > > > 'But I struggle with this: although I know that to love God is all, > > no matter the name or form we choose. But is it possible to combine > > two 'languages' for the simple devotee without becoming hopelessly > > confused? " > > > > Yes, you are right to Love God is the essential point. > > However, there is a major difference between Christianity and > > Hinduism. To be a Christian is to accept the Ten Commandments of > God. > > One of those is that " You shall have no other gods before me " . To > > Honor the Christian God, and to at the same time Honor Durga Ma, > > Shiva, Lakshmi, etc.. is in truth, blasphemy of the Christian God. > > It is what a Satanist would do. > > To Honor the Christian God, from a Hindu perspective is nothing, it > > is just one of the many faces of God. > > To interpret the Christian scriptures according to Hinduism is also > > wrong. There is an initiatory linage in Christianity, a Tradition > > just like there is in Hinduism. One cannot be true to both, for > > Christianities very understanding of God is so very different from > > that of Hinduism. To make only one point, in Christianity, the World > > is not God, it is not even a part of God. Whereas in Hinduism this > > very World is the Living Body OF God. They are in truth, from the > > ground up, two completely different religions. > > > > > > " Is it the right thing to do to listen to both voices and > > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? To > > sing with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite Lord's > > Prayer and the Guru Gita? " > > > > The answer depends on whether or not you are a Christian or a Hindu? > > If in your Heart of Hearts you are a Christian, the answer is > clearly > > defined, NO. Likewise if in your depths you are a Hindu, then the > > answer is also clearly defined, YES. > > > > " Or is this desire to make both worlds one, to integrate those > parts, > > the equivalent of the gold watch given by our parents, which, > > although beautiful in itself and presented with the best intentions, > > is best thrown away before one gets carried away? " > > > > It was the Ego Attachment to the gold watch that was wrong, not the > > Gold Watch. So look deep and see. > > If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Christian, then > let > > go, go home, take what you have learned and express it to the depths > > of your soul. > > If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Hindu, then > realize > > this is God's way, you are meant to have these feelings, so that you > > may transcend into the deep mystical truth, which is that everyone > > and everything is the Divine Glory Of God. Until you have this deep > > experience while living in your very flesh, then you honor the > > Christian God and Saints as one of the many manifestations of the > ONE > > LIVING AND TRUE GOD. > > > > I grew up in a Christian household. I have deeply contemplated the > > Christian religion and knowing full well the results of my actions, > I > > have formally renounced the Christian religion. Today Christianity > is > > nothing more than a Mythology to me. I am a Shaivite, I live a life > > of Love, peace, unity and Consciousness, I play with Shiva, he > > twinkles in the stars, moves in the wind, flows through the waters, > > smiles in my child's eyes, and sharing that blessing with my fellow > > brothers and sisters is what its all about. > > > > Please forgive me if I have hurt you in any way by what I have said, > > and thank you for your time, occasionally I hit a tree. > > > > I wish you peace > > Nickolas > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > henny_v_i > > > 03/09/07 14:42:11 > > > > > > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: Guru-disciple relationship > > > > > > Dear Vish, Tanmaya and all, > > > > > > the story about the watch has given me much food for thought. > > > Especially the part where it says: " Then, one day he suddenly left > > the > > > monastery. There was no particular reason; it just seemed to him > to > > be > > > the right thing to do. " > > > Lately, I have had some doubts of my own and perhaps it is a good > > > thing to put them on the table now, before they become too big to > > > handle and running away seems the right thing to do. I hope those > > who > > > read this will understand I do not mean to be disrespectful to > > Shree > > > Maa or Swamiji, or their teachings, in any way. > > > Over the past year or so, I have made an effort to familiarize > > myself > > > with the teachings and practices Shree Maa and Swamiji so > > generously > > > share with us. I learnt how to do puja, how to recite, how to > > chant. I > > > read most of the books, and listened to Maa's songs all the time. > I > > > learned to love Her and Swamiji more and more. So I was overjoyed > > that > > > now with the webcam, I could finally see the celebrations and > > attend > > > classes. > > > But now a strange thing has happened: to watch the celebrations > did > > > not make me particularly happy. It rather made me sad, as I was > > > shocked to discover. Partly, this was because I could not > > physically > > > be there, and felt isolated at my desk on my own, but for the > > greater > > > part it was that I felt an outsider in another way. I felt as if I > > had > > > tried to learn a new language and suddenly realized I would never > > be > > > able to pass for a native speaker. As if a gap had appeared inside > > > which I could not cross. And as the days passed, and more > > celebrations > > > and classes followed, I found myself longing for the crisp cool > > sounds > > > of Gregorian chant and for the 'language' of the tradition I was > > > raised in. I longed for the stories I know and for the familiar > > words. > > > I felt homesick for the psalms and the saints who have inspired me > > > through the years, and instead of Maa Durga on Her lion, in > > meditation > > > I thought of the Mother of God crowned with Glory. And as I > > performed > > > puja, every word acquired new meaning, because it made perfect > > sense > > > applied both to Shiva and to the Lord Jesus. I saw Maa reflected > in > > > Mary, Mary in Maa. > > > Now, recently it has been said here (by you, Vish?) that Maa > > > celebrates Christmas and Eastern which as much devotion as > > Shivaratri > > > or other festivals. I have seen Swamiji perform both puja and mass > > at > > > Christmas. But They know things that I do not and Their > > consciousness > > > embraces all. There is no conflict. But I struggle with this: > > although > > > I know that to love God is all, no matter the name or form we > > choose. > > > But is it possible to combine two 'languages' for the simple > > devotee > > > without becoming hopelessly confused? Once a member of this family > > > told me it is better to stick to one tradition, at least if you > > mean > > > business (I paraphrase), and I understand why this is so. But the > > > heart has its own ideas and has started to speak now in this > > language, > > > now in that. Is it the right thing to do to listen to both voices > > and > > > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > > > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? To > > sing > > > with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite Lord's > > Prayer > > > and the Guru Gita? Or is this desire to make both worlds one, to > > > integrate those parts, the equivalent of the gold watch given by > > our > > > parents, which, although beautiful in itself and presented with > the > > > best intentions, is best thrown away before one gets carried away? > > > > > > I would be very happy to hear the thoughts of my brothers and > > sisters > > > on this matter and I wonder if perhaps someone else, coming from a > > > Christian background, has had the same experience. > > > > > > with love, > > > Henny > > > > > > , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Tanmaya, > > > > > > > > You never told that story before. It made me feel sad too. I > have > > > > observed the Guru put tremendous love and attention on their > > > > disciples. Then, one day, for no reason I can fathom, the > disciple > > > > departs. The Master gives and gives, but, if the student stops > > > > receiving, the connection is severed. > > > > The ego is so crafty. We must be so vigilant and stay in contact > > > with > > > > the Master, no matter how confused we become, because, the > Master > > > > holds the key. They will always see thru the clouds of delusion > > and > > > > can remove our doubts. As long as we want them to. > > > > > > > > Jai Maa Jai Swami > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , " ty_maa " <dsjames@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " No idea how crafty " . > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vishweshwar, > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to share a story (maybe I told it before long back) > > about > > > the > > > > > career of a monastic brother. > > > > > > > > > > This brother had all the good qualities: he could meditate, he > > > knew > > > > > Sanskrit, he was a good singer of devotional songs, he was > very > > > > > personable--and the favorite of all the visiting abbotts. He > was > > > > > generally thought to be a sure success in spirtiual life. > > > > > > > > > > Although, like the others, he had only limited communication > > with > > > his > > > > > family in the outside world, once, on his birthday, he walked > > into > > > the > > > > > abbott's room to joyfully show his Guru the new watch which > his > > > parents > > > > > had just sent him as a gift. > > > > > > > > > > To his suprise and chagrin , the Guru quietly looked up for a > > > moment, > > > > > and then, suddenly and forcefully pointiing to the corner of > > his > > > room, > > > > > said, " throw it in the wastebasket-- now! > > > > > > > > > > The brother was unable to speak, he was so dumbfounded by the > > > order. He > > > > > very slowly backed out of the room and silently went up the > > stairs > > > to > > > > > his own room to ponder what had just happened. He knew that he > > had > > > > > disobeyed his Guru; and that caused him great sorrow. But he > > also > > > > > thought that the order his Guru had given him was so > outlandish > > > and so > > > > > unreasonable that he gradually began to rationalize his > > response. > > > > > > > > > > As time passed, the Guru was as loving and kind to him as > > > > > ever--although, it gradually became apparent to the brother > > that > > > the > > > > > Guru's conversation with him was on a more general, even > > somewhat > > > > > superficial, level than before. His Guru no longer spoke to > him > > > about > > > > > his spiritual life and training; rather, he conversed with him > > > more as > > > > > he did to visitors-- about their families, the state of the > > world, > > > and > > > > > so forth. > > > > > > > > > > This hurt the brother; and he was wise enough to understand > > that > > > he had > > > > > broken a special relationship between himself and his Guru by > > his > > > > > disobedience;. Nevertheless, he couldn't bring himself to > > return > > > to the > > > > > Guru's room and dispose of the watch which his parents had so > > > lovingly > > > > > sent him for his birthday, as he was certain he must do to set > > > right his > > > > > mistake. Why was the Guru so unreasonable? It was only a > watch! > > > There > > > > > was no danger--it was not something worldly after all-just a > > > useful tool > > > > > like many other brothers wore. > > > > > > > > > > Things went on like this for a while; and then the watch > > stopped. > > > This > > > > > upset the brother very much because it was expensive and still > > > > > practically new. And he was quite sure the Abbott would not > > budget > > > for a > > > > > watch repair given the circumstances. In any case, he didn't > > want > > > to > > > > > bring the subject up. So, after some thought, he decided to go > > to > > > the > > > > > library and get a book on watch repair. Which he did. > > > > > > > > > > To his great delight, the brother found that he was indeed > able > > to > > > > > repair the watch using the book, and that it again was running > > and > > > > > keeping perfect time. And it didn't cost anybody a thing. In > > fact, > > > he > > > > > was so happy about his success that he offered to repair > another > > > > > brother's watch that had lately stopped--and he was successful > > > with that > > > > > one too! > > > > > > > > > > He began to think that he could be of useful service to the > > > monastery by > > > > > this means, and he was soon studying more about the workings > of > > > watches, > > > > > and working on them late into the night. He didn't do this > > during > > > the > > > > > normal hours because he still thought that his Guru might > > > disapprove. > > > > > > > > > > Then, one day he suddenly left the monastery. There was no > > > particular > > > > > reason; it just seemed to him to be the right thing to do. The > > > Swamis > > > > > and his peers were suprised and disappointed, but there was > > > nothing they > > > > > could say to change his mind. So, he left and got a job in a > > > nearby > > > > > hardware store. After that, he joined one of the armed > services. > > > > > > > > > > When he was released from the service, he used his G.I. loan > to > > > go to > > > > > the University at Berleley for a degree in engineering. Before > > > long, > > > > > after graduating, he found himself in Silicon Valley, where he > > > soon > > > > > started a company which manufactured a computer chip of his > own > > > design. > > > > > And he sold a lot of them--a whole lot. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, soon, though still quite a young man, he had become a > > > > > multimillionare. > > > > > > > > > > I had the opportunity to see him once. One day, when I was > > paying > > > a > > > > > visit to his old ashram he also stopped by that day for the > > first > > > time > > > > > after leaving. He drove up in an expensive red sports cars, > and > > a > > > pretty > > > > > blond girl waited in the car while he entered the ashram for a > > few > > > > > minutes. > > > > > > > > > > All the Swamis and brothers greeted him and spoke in a very > > > friendly way > > > > > about his successful life and other things in general. After a > > > short > > > > > visit he drove off, and the brothers returned to their various > > > tasks. > > > > > > > > > > I can't exactly say why, but for some time afterward I felt a > > > great > > > > > emptiness and loneliness somewhere inside. > > > > > It couldn't be for the young man who had just driven off in > his > > > red > > > > > sports car because he was full of joy and his life was > exciting > > > and > > > > > before him. Nor could my sadness have been for the brothers; > > they > > > very > > > > > soon forgot him in their tasks and spiritual practice. > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was for the old Abbott and Guru--who saw more than he > > > could > > > > > explain, but who could only speak his Truth as he saw it, even > > as > > > he > > > > > knew that it could not change what was to be. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the loneliness I felt must have been for the old Abbott > > who > > > had > > > > > lost his monastic son. > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > > > A perfect statement. Action, either for thee or me. > > > > > > I remember once talking to Maa about some drama my ego was > > > creating. > > > > > > I said I could not believe how crafty the ego was. Maa said, > > in > > > > > > essense, " you have not idea how crafty " . > > > > > > I remember that often, in fact daily, as I watch my small > > self > > > get me > > > > > > into one problem after another. > > > > > > Fortunately, She is there to catch me when I fall, and She > > > encourages > > > > > > me to get up, dust off, and get back on the bucking bronco. > > > > > > How truly blessed to have Her as a Guru and Mother. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Ma Jai Swami > > > > > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , shreemaadevotee@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daily Reflection > > > > > > > March 3 - Spirituality > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every action that we produce in life has two > possibilities. > > > It will > > > > > > be for > > > > > > > me or for Thee. Either I am acting motivated by > selfishness > > > or I am > > > > > > acting > > > > > > > motivated by surrender. There are some really fine shades > > of > > > gray > > > > > > where we think > > > > > > > we are surrendering, but are actually enhancing our > egotism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from The Guru and the Goddess > > > > > > > Copyright 1995, 1998 Devi Mandir Publications > > > > > > > Third Edition > > > > > > > www.shreemaa.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2007 Report Share Posted March 13, 2007 Dear Kalia, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. I recognize so much in what you wrote. The 'do as I do' attitude seems the easiest teaching, but is perhaps the hardest. But it is the only way to learn, with love, Henny In , " kaliananda_saraswati " <kaliananda_saraswati wrote: > > Dear Henny, > > Thanks very much for starting this very interesting thread. A few > weeks ago I received an email in celebration of RamaKrishna's > birthday, part of the mail said the Paramahansa's " experienced all > religions as a single spectrum of wisdom and devotion, as a communion > of the Divine with the Divine in which worshipper and worshipped > emerged from the same ultimate Consciousness. " In responding to the > writer, I shared the fact that I was wondering whether there were any > members of the forum attending orthodox religions while practicing > the " Hindu " way of life. I guess the thought surfaced because I do > on occasion attend an Anglican church when I feed the need to join > with others to sing to God. I would arise at the usual early morning > hour and commence Sadhana, attend 6:30 service and on returning home > perform puja. > > Though being raised in the orthodox religion, I can very much > identify with Nicholas' words – To honour the " Christian God " from a > Hindu perspective is just another face of God. " This is like Ty- > maa's " in my Father's house there are many mansions " . The teachings > of Beloved Shree Maa and Swamiji has given me a much clearer > understanding of the " Christian teachings " . We have a clearly define > goal and path in their teachings which they in turn exemplify. > > This makes all the difference to me as someone who lives in the West > there is not that do as i say and not as i do attitude. > > Thanks again Henny. I pray Divine Mother's guidance for you. > > Love, > Kalia > PS, hope i did not rattle on an that the words above make sense.) > > > > Interpretations of scripture vary, depending on whether > > the one speaking has taken a bath in one of the large and broad > > streams within Christianity or in the deep and hidden ones. What > some > > Christians would think `wrong', others would not. Several eminent > > Christians in the past have tested the waters of the Eastern > rivers > > of Wisdom and found great value there. And where some may consider > the > > world to be God's creation fallen in sin, other Christians do > > recognize the universe as the Body of God. It is true, there is a > > tradition, but many of the faithful do not realize how rich and > > diverse their tradition actually is. For some, the Christian and > Hindu > > paths are far apart, for others, they come very close and lead to > the > > same destination. > > Secondly; I personally am not so much concerned with `isms' and I > do > > not seek approval from any denomination nor do I particularly wish > to > > belong to one. The notion `Christian God' is not one I believe in > or > > even understand; to me there is only one God, period. To me, the > `thou > > shalt have no other gods before me' means precisely that: to > recognize > > always the One behind the different representations. No religious > > tradition, valuable as it may be, is capable of expressing the > > > > > > > , " Nickolas " <lordpyrocrow@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Henny, > > > > > > I was touched by your post. > > > I would like to offer you my point of view. > > > > > > 'But I struggle with this: although I know that to love God is > all, > > > no matter the name or form we choose. But is it possible to > combine > > > two 'languages' for the simple devotee without becoming > hopelessly > > > confused? " > > > > > > Yes, you are right to Love God is the essential point. > > > However, there is a major difference between Christianity and > > > Hinduism. To be a Christian is to accept the Ten Commandments of > > God. > > > One of those is that " You shall have no other gods before me " . > To > > > Honor the Christian God, and to at the same time Honor Durga Ma, > > > Shiva, Lakshmi, etc.. is in truth, blasphemy of the Christian > God. > > > It is what a Satanist would do. > > > To Honor the Christian God, from a Hindu perspective is nothing, > it > > > is just one of the many faces of God. > > > To interpret the Christian scriptures according to Hinduism is > also > > > wrong. There is an initiatory linage in Christianity, a Tradition > > > just like there is in Hinduism. One cannot be true to both, for > > > Christianities very understanding of God is so very different > from > > > that of Hinduism. To make only one point, in Christianity, the > World > > > is not God, it is not even a part of God. Whereas in Hinduism > this > > > very World is the Living Body OF God. They are in truth, from the > > > ground up, two completely different religions. > > > > > > > > > " Is it the right thing to do to listen to both voices and > > > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > > > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? To > > > sing with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite > Lord's > > > Prayer and the Guru Gita? " > > > > > > The answer depends on whether or not you are a Christian or a > Hindu? > > > If in your Heart of Hearts you are a Christian, the answer is > > clearly > > > defined, NO. Likewise if in your depths you are a Hindu, then the > > > answer is also clearly defined, YES. > > > > > > " Or is this desire to make both worlds one, to integrate those > > parts, > > > the equivalent of the gold watch given by our parents, which, > > > although beautiful in itself and presented with the best > intentions, > > > is best thrown away before one gets carried away? " > > > > > > It was the Ego Attachment to the gold watch that was wrong, not > the > > > Gold Watch. So look deep and see. > > > If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Christian, then > > let > > > go, go home, take what you have learned and express it to the > depths > > > of your soul. > > > If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Hindu, then > > realize > > > this is God's way, you are meant to have these feelings, so that > you > > > may transcend into the deep mystical truth, which is that > everyone > > > and everything is the Divine Glory Of God. Until you have this > deep > > > experience while living in your very flesh, then you honor the > > > Christian God and Saints as one of the many manifestations of the > > ONE > > > LIVING AND TRUE GOD. > > > > > > I grew up in a Christian household. I have deeply contemplated > the > > > Christian religion and knowing full well the results of my > actions, > > I > > > have formally renounced the Christian religion. Today > Christianity > > is > > > nothing more than a Mythology to me. I am a Shaivite, I live a > life > > > of Love, peace, unity and Consciousness, I play with Shiva, he > > > twinkles in the stars, moves in the wind, flows through the > waters, > > > smiles in my child's eyes, and sharing that blessing with my > fellow > > > brothers and sisters is what its all about. > > > > > > Please forgive me if I have hurt you in any way by what I have > said, > > > and thank you for your time, occasionally I hit a tree. > > > > > > I wish you peace > > > Nickolas > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > henny_v_i > > > > 03/09/07 14:42:11 > > > > > > > > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: Guru-disciple relationship > > > > > > > > Dear Vish, Tanmaya and all, > > > > > > > > the story about the watch has given me much food for thought. > > > > Especially the part where it says: " Then, one day he suddenly > left > > > the > > > > monastery. There was no particular reason; it just seemed to > him > > to > > > be > > > > the right thing to do. " > > > > Lately, I have had some doubts of my own and perhaps it is a > good > > > > thing to put them on the table now, before they become too big > to > > > > handle and running away seems the right thing to do. I hope > those > > > who > > > > read this will understand I do not mean to be disrespectful to > > > Shree > > > > Maa or Swamiji, or their teachings, in any way. > > > > Over the past year or so, I have made an effort to familiarize > > > myself > > > > with the teachings and practices Shree Maa and Swamiji so > > > generously > > > > share with us. I learnt how to do puja, how to recite, how to > > > chant. I > > > > read most of the books, and listened to Maa's songs all the > time. > > I > > > > learned to love Her and Swamiji more and more. So I was > overjoyed > > > that > > > > now with the webcam, I could finally see the celebrations and > > > attend > > > > classes. > > > > But now a strange thing has happened: to watch the celebrations > > did > > > > not make me particularly happy. It rather made me sad, as I was > > > > shocked to discover. Partly, this was because I could not > > > physically > > > > be there, and felt isolated at my desk on my own, but for the > > > greater > > > > part it was that I felt an outsider in another way. I felt as > if I > > > had > > > > tried to learn a new language and suddenly realized I would > never > > > be > > > > able to pass for a native speaker. As if a gap had appeared > inside > > > > which I could not cross. And as the days passed, and more > > > celebrations > > > > and classes followed, I found myself longing for the crisp cool > > > sounds > > > > of Gregorian chant and for the 'language' of the tradition I > was > > > > raised in. I longed for the stories I know and for the familiar > > > words. > > > > I felt homesick for the psalms and the saints who have inspired > me > > > > through the years, and instead of Maa Durga on Her lion, in > > > meditation > > > > I thought of the Mother of God crowned with Glory. And as I > > > performed > > > > puja, every word acquired new meaning, because it made perfect > > > sense > > > > applied both to Shiva and to the Lord Jesus. I saw Maa > reflected > > in > > > > Mary, Mary in Maa. > > > > Now, recently it has been said here (by you, Vish?) that Maa > > > > celebrates Christmas and Eastern which as much devotion as > > > Shivaratri > > > > or other festivals. I have seen Swamiji perform both puja and > mass > > > at > > > > Christmas. But They know things that I do not and Their > > > consciousness > > > > embraces all. There is no conflict. But I struggle with this: > > > although > > > > I know that to love God is all, no matter the name or form we > > > choose. > > > > But is it possible to combine two 'languages' for the simple > > > devotee > > > > without becoming hopelessly confused? Once a member of this > family > > > > told me it is better to stick to one tradition, at least if you > > > mean > > > > business (I paraphrase), and I understand why this is so. But > the > > > > heart has its own ideas and has started to speak now in this > > > language, > > > > now in that. Is it the right thing to do to listen to both > voices > > > and > > > > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > > > > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? > To > > > sing > > > > with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite Lord's > > > Prayer > > > > and the Guru Gita? Or is this desire to make both worlds one, > to > > > > integrate those parts, the equivalent of the gold watch given > by > > > our > > > > parents, which, although beautiful in itself and presented with > > the > > > > best intentions, is best thrown away before one gets carried > away? > > > > > > > > I would be very happy to hear the thoughts of my brothers and > > > sisters > > > > on this matter and I wonder if perhaps someone else, coming > from a > > > > Christian background, has had the same experience. > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > Henny > > > > > > > > , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tanmaya, > > > > > > > > > > You never told that story before. It made me feel sad too. I > > have > > > > > observed the Guru put tremendous love and attention on their > > > > > disciples. Then, one day, for no reason I can fathom, the > > disciple > > > > > departs. The Master gives and gives, but, if the student stops > > > > > receiving, the connection is severed. > > > > > The ego is so crafty. We must be so vigilant and stay in > contact > > > > with > > > > > the Master, no matter how confused we become, because, the > > Master > > > > > holds the key. They will always see thru the clouds of > delusion > > > and > > > > > can remove our doubts. As long as we want them to. > > > > > > > > > > Jai Maa Jai Swami > > > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , " ty_maa " <dsjames@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " No idea how crafty " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vishweshwar, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to share a story (maybe I told it before long > back) > > > about > > > > the > > > > > > career of a monastic brother. > > > > > > > > > > > > This brother had all the good qualities: he could meditate, > he > > > > knew > > > > > > Sanskrit, he was a good singer of devotional songs, he was > > very > > > > > > personable--and the favorite of all the visiting abbotts. > He > > was > > > > > > generally thought to be a sure success in spirtiual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like the others, he had only limited > communication > > > with > > > > his > > > > > > family in the outside world, once, on his birthday, he > walked > > > into > > > > the > > > > > > abbott's room to joyfully show his Guru the new watch which > > his > > > > parents > > > > > > had just sent him as a gift. > > > > > > > > > > > > To his suprise and chagrin , the Guru quietly looked up for > a > > > > moment, > > > > > > and then, suddenly and forcefully pointiing to the corner > of > > > his > > > > room, > > > > > > said, " throw it in the wastebasket-- now! > > > > > > > > > > > > The brother was unable to speak, he was so dumbfounded by > the > > > > order. He > > > > > > very slowly backed out of the room and silently went up the > > > stairs > > > > to > > > > > > his own room to ponder what had just happened. He knew that > he > > > had > > > > > > disobeyed his Guru; and that caused him great sorrow. But > he > > > also > > > > > > thought that the order his Guru had given him was so > > outlandish > > > > and so > > > > > > unreasonable that he gradually began to rationalize his > > > response. > > > > > > > > > > > > As time passed, the Guru was as loving and kind to him as > > > > > > ever--although, it gradually became apparent to the brother > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > Guru's conversation with him was on a more general, even > > > somewhat > > > > > > superficial, level than before. His Guru no longer spoke to > > him > > > > about > > > > > > his spiritual life and training; rather, he conversed with > him > > > > more as > > > > > > he did to visitors-- about their families, the state of the > > > world, > > > > and > > > > > > so forth. > > > > > > > > > > > > This hurt the brother; and he was wise enough to understand > > > that > > > > he had > > > > > > broken a special relationship between himself and his Guru > by > > > his > > > > > > disobedience;. Nevertheless, he couldn't bring himself to > > > return > > > > to the > > > > > > Guru's room and dispose of the watch which his parents had > so > > > > lovingly > > > > > > sent him for his birthday, as he was certain he must do to > set > > > > right his > > > > > > mistake. Why was the Guru so unreasonable? It was only a > > watch! > > > > There > > > > > > was no danger--it was not something worldly after all-just > a > > > > useful tool > > > > > > like many other brothers wore. > > > > > > > > > > > > Things went on like this for a while; and then the watch > > > stopped. > > > > This > > > > > > upset the brother very much because it was expensive and > still > > > > > > practically new. And he was quite sure the Abbott would not > > > budget > > > > for a > > > > > > watch repair given the circumstances. In any case, he > didn't > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > bring the subject up. So, after some thought, he decided to > go > > > to > > > > the > > > > > > library and get a book on watch repair. Which he did. > > > > > > > > > > > > To his great delight, the brother found that he was indeed > > able > > > to > > > > > > repair the watch using the book, and that it again was > running > > > and > > > > > > keeping perfect time. And it didn't cost anybody a thing. > In > > > fact, > > > > he > > > > > > was so happy about his success that he offered to repair > > another > > > > > > brother's watch that had lately stopped--and he was > successful > > > > with that > > > > > > one too! > > > > > > > > > > > > He began to think that he could be of useful service to the > > > > monastery by > > > > > > this means, and he was soon studying more about the > workings > > of > > > > watches, > > > > > > and working on them late into the night. He didn't do this > > > during > > > > the > > > > > > normal hours because he still thought that his Guru might > > > > disapprove. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, one day he suddenly left the monastery. There was no > > > > particular > > > > > > reason; it just seemed to him to be the right thing to do. > The > > > > Swamis > > > > > > and his peers were suprised and disappointed, but there was > > > > nothing they > > > > > > could say to change his mind. So, he left and got a job in > a > > > > nearby > > > > > > hardware store. After that, he joined one of the armed > > services. > > > > > > > > > > > > When he was released from the service, he used his G.I. > loan > > to > > > > go to > > > > > > the University at Berleley for a degree in engineering. > Before > > > > long, > > > > > > after graduating, he found himself in Silicon Valley, where > he > > > > soon > > > > > > started a company which manufactured a computer chip of his > > own > > > > design. > > > > > > And he sold a lot of them--a whole lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, soon, though still quite a young man, he had > become a > > > > > > multimillionare. > > > > > > > > > > > > I had the opportunity to see him once. One day, when I was > > > paying > > > > a > > > > > > visit to his old ashram he also stopped by that day for the > > > first > > > > time > > > > > > after leaving. He drove up in an expensive red sports cars, > > and > > > a > > > > pretty > > > > > > blond girl waited in the car while he entered the ashram > for a > > > few > > > > > > minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the Swamis and brothers greeted him and spoke in a very > > > > friendly way > > > > > > about his successful life and other things in general. > After a > > > > short > > > > > > visit he drove off, and the brothers returned to their > various > > > > tasks. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't exactly say why, but for some time afterward I felt > a > > > > great > > > > > > emptiness and loneliness somewhere inside. > > > > > > It couldn't be for the young man who had just driven off in > > his > > > > red > > > > > > sports car because he was full of joy and his life was > > exciting > > > > and > > > > > > before him. Nor could my sadness have been for the > brothers; > > > they > > > > very > > > > > > soon forgot him in their tasks and spiritual practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was for the old Abbott and Guru--who saw more than > he > > > > could > > > > > > explain, but who could only speak his Truth as he saw it, > even > > > as > > > > he > > > > > > knew that it could not change what was to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the loneliness I felt must have been for the old > Abbott > > > who > > > > had > > > > > > lost his monastic son. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A perfect statement. Action, either for thee or me. > > > > > > > I remember once talking to Maa about some drama my ego > was > > > > creating. > > > > > > > I said I could not believe how crafty the ego was. Maa > said, > > > in > > > > > > > essense, " you have not idea how crafty " . > > > > > > > I remember that often, in fact daily, as I watch my small > > > self > > > > get me > > > > > > > into one problem after another. > > > > > > > Fortunately, She is there to catch me when I fall, and > She > > > > encourages > > > > > > > me to get up, dust off, and get back on the bucking > bronco. > > > > > > > How truly blessed to have Her as a Guru and Mother. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Ma Jai Swami > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , shreemaadevotee@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daily Reflection > > > > > > > > March 3 - Spirituality > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every action that we produce in life has two > > possibilities. > > > > It will > > > > > > > be for > > > > > > > > me or for Thee. Either I am acting motivated by > > selfishness > > > > or I am > > > > > > > acting > > > > > > > > motivated by surrender. There are some really fine > shades > > > of > > > > gray > > > > > > > where we think > > > > > > > > we are surrendering, but are actually enhancing our > > egotism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from The Guru and the Goddess > > > > > > > > Copyright 1995, 1998 Devi Mandir Publications > > > > > > > > Third Edition > > > > > > > > www.shreemaa.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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