Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Namaste Nicholas, thank you very much for writing to me again, because now I can see what you were actually saying instead of what I thought you were saying. I think it is I who should thank you for your patience. Thank you also for the word of caution. Yes, I see how the ego would try to put the idea into one's head that to feel like an outsider is something to be avoided, and how it would rather lure one back to what is familiar than to see one push forward through that feeling into unknown territory where it cannot follow. In my reaction to what you wrote I have said too easily that I am not concerned with identity and have nothing to renounce. If I had no restrictions and limitations, I would not have felt the need to write about the matter, would I? The ego is devious indeed. So you are right to warn me and I will keep your warning in mind. What may be a wise thing to do on top of the mount may not be such a good idea down in the jungle. It is indeed easy to get lost, but I trust that with the firm grip of the Guru's hand and with the help of my family, I will not get far away. I am also grateful that you added the personal note; I understand how a firm and definite commitment to one's chosen path is a valuable and even necessary tool. What form that commitment should take may differ for each individual. I reacted to the idea of formal renunciation more on the basis of associations these words have in my mind that to what you actually said. The book you mention I have here in my room. I have read it many years ago, and I may very well benefit from reading it again:) with love, Henny - In , " Nickolas " <lordpyrocrow wrote: > > Namaste Henny, > > > I would Like to address your first point. My expression of > Christianity was a generalization based upon the truth that the > majority of Christians hold the " Bible " to be a literal fact and the > Christian Religion to be the one and only true path, all else being > evil. > True, a generalization cannot give the proper respect to all of our > mystical brothers and sisters that live according to the Christian > faith, it only acts as an expedient means of expression. I apologize > if my expression seemed overly dogmatic. > > Now on to your second point. Thank you for sharing and I am sorry, as > I failed in my attempts in communication. > > " My concern is not so much with identity, but with practice. " > > I wrote in relation to practice not identity. I also took into > account that you have been feeling distant, like an outsider, longing > for the feel, the language of Christianity. My point was simply that, > the answer to all of your questions is based upon how you truly feel. > > If you indeed have no limitations, no restrictions, no religious > identification and nothing to renounce, you are free to do as you > choose. Each moment then exists in its pristine purity. To worship > both Durga Ma and Mother Marry within the same moment is to move > toward that mystical union, where you know beyond any shadow of a > doubt, that everything is indeed God. > > A word of caution, as we advance upon the spiritual path the ego > becomes subtle. The feeling that our practice is incomplete and the > loss of inspiration, often leaves us looking in a different > direction. Many have become lost in this way, each action is a seed, > many things will come of it. > > A personal note: I have chosen to renounce all other paths, " isms " , > as a means of securing my way to the end. It has proven to be a > valuable tool, especially during what Christian Mystics call " The > Dark Night Of The Soul " . > > Last but not least, if you have the chance please read " Practical > Mysticism " by Evelyn Underhill. She does not write with any one > theological system in mind, but instead writes to reveal the mystical > relationship between Man and the Universe. It is of the highest > quality. > > Thank you for your time and patience. > Shanti > Nickolas > > > > > , " henny_v_i " <henny_v_i@> wrote: > > > > Dear Nicholas, > > > > No, I am not hurt by your sincere expression of your point of > view. > > On the contrary, I am grateful that you have taken the time and > > trouble to address my questions. > > I would like to share some thoughts, if I may, not so much to start > a > > debate, as to let you know how I feel and to clarify some things: > > First of all; perhaps a little caution is needed when talking about > > `Christianity'. Not all who consider themselves Christians think > the > > same (nor do Hindus, for that matter), and although I know people > who > > would consider it a blasphemy to pray before an image of Durga (or > any > > image, for that matter), I also know those who hold a more > charitable > > view towards different representations of the experience of God > (for > > that is what religious traditions share with us in images and > stories, > > in my view). Interpretations of scripture vary, depending on > whether > > the one speaking has taken a bath in one of the large and broad > > streams within Christianity or in the deep and hidden ones. What > some > > Christians would think `wrong', others would not. Several eminent > > Christians in the past have tested the waters of the Eastern > rivers > > of Wisdom and found great value there. And where some may consider > the > > world to be God's creation fallen in sin, other Christians do > > recognize the universe as the Body of God. It is true, there is a > > tradition, but many of the faithful do not realize how rich and > > diverse their tradition actually is. For some, the Christian and > Hindu > > paths are far apart, for others, they come very close and lead to > the > > same destination. > > Secondly; I personally am not so much concerned with `isms' and I > do > > not seek approval from any denomination nor do I particularly wish > to > > belong to one. The notion `Christian God' is not one I believe in > or > > even understand; to me there is only one God, period. To me, the > `thou > > shalt have no other gods before me' means precisely that: to > recognize > > always the One behind the different representations. No religious > > tradition, valuable as it may be, is capable of expressing the > > Totality, and not one has the exclusive rights to Truth. They can > only > > take us so far, and after that, there is silence. In my view, it > would > > be very good if different religious traditions would recognize this > > and would stop fighting over interpretations and opinions. > > Do these ideas make me a Hindu? Perhaps, but I was taught these > things > > by Christian teachers. Am I a Christian then? Yes, if it means that > I > > believe in the experience of the living Christ, no if it means that > > Christianity is supposed to have the exclusive rights thereof. You > > advise me to choose between the two; yet in my heart of hearts I > feel > > that I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Muslim, nor Hindu, not of > > the East, nor of the West, to paraphrase Rumi. I have no wish to > > renounce anything because I don't have anything to renounce. What > has > > sustained me until now, will also sustain me tomorrow, because it > is > > Eternal Wisdom, whether it is expressed in one `language' or the > > other. My concern is not so much with identity, but with practice. > > > > please forgive me if I have failed to explain how I feel clearly; > > English is not my native tongue:) > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > , " Nickolas " <lordpyrocrow@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Henny, > > > > > > I was touched by your post. > > > I would like to offer you my point of view. > > > > > > 'But I struggle with this: although I know that to love God is > all, > > > no matter the name or form we choose. But is it possible to > combine > > > two 'languages' for the simple devotee without becoming > hopelessly > > > confused? " > > > > > > Yes, you are right to Love God is the essential point. > > > However, there is a major difference between Christianity and > > > Hinduism. To be a Christian is to accept the Ten Commandments of > > God. > > > One of those is that " You shall have no other gods before me " . > To > > > Honor the Christian God, and to at the same time Honor Durga Ma, > > > Shiva, Lakshmi, etc.. is in truth, blasphemy of the Christian > God. > > > It is what a Satanist would do. > > > To Honor the Christian God, from a Hindu perspective is nothing, > it > > > is just one of the many faces of God. > > > To interpret the Christian scriptures according to Hinduism is > also > > > wrong. There is an initiatory linage in Christianity, a Tradition > > > just like there is in Hinduism. One cannot be true to both, for > > > Christianities very understanding of God is so very different > from > > > that of Hinduism. To make only one point, in Christianity, the > World > > > is not God, it is not even a part of God. Whereas in Hinduism > this > > > very World is the Living Body OF God. They are in truth, from the > > > ground up, two completely different religions. > > > > > > > > > " Is it the right thing to do to listen to both voices and > > > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > > > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? To > > > sing with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite > Lord's > > > Prayer and the Guru Gita? " > > > > > > The answer depends on whether or not you are a Christian or a > Hindu? > > > If in your Heart of Hearts you are a Christian, the answer is > > clearly > > > defined, NO. Likewise if in your depths you are a Hindu, then the > > > answer is also clearly defined, YES. > > > > > > " Or is this desire to make both worlds one, to integrate those > > parts, > > > the equivalent of the gold watch given by our parents, which, > > > although beautiful in itself and presented with the best > intentions, > > > is best thrown away before one gets carried away? " > > > > > > It was the Ego Attachment to the gold watch that was wrong, not > the > > > Gold Watch. So look deep and see. > > > If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Christian, then > > let > > > go, go home, take what you have learned and express it to the > depths > > > of your soul. > > > If in truth, when you look deep, you indeed see a Hindu, then > > realize > > > this is God's way, you are meant to have these feelings, so that > you > > > may transcend into the deep mystical truth, which is that > everyone > > > and everything is the Divine Glory Of God. Until you have this > deep > > > experience while living in your very flesh, then you honor the > > > Christian God and Saints as one of the many manifestations of the > > ONE > > > LIVING AND TRUE GOD. > > > > > > I grew up in a Christian household. I have deeply contemplated > the > > > Christian religion and knowing full well the results of my > actions, > > I > > > have formally renounced the Christian religion. Today > Christianity > > is > > > nothing more than a Mythology to me. I am a Shaivite, I live a > life > > > of Love, peace, unity and Consciousness, I play with Shiva, he > > > twinkles in the stars, moves in the wind, flows through the > waters, > > > smiles in my child's eyes, and sharing that blessing with my > fellow > > > brothers and sisters is what its all about. > > > > > > Please forgive me if I have hurt you in any way by what I have > said, > > > and thank you for your time, occasionally I hit a tree. > > > > > > I wish you peace > > > Nickolas > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > henny_v_i > > > > 03/09/07 14:42:11 > > > > > > > > [www.ShreeMaa.org] Re: Guru-disciple relationship > > > > > > > > Dear Vish, Tanmaya and all, > > > > > > > > the story about the watch has given me much food for thought. > > > > Especially the part where it says: " Then, one day he suddenly > left > > > the > > > > monastery. There was no particular reason; it just seemed to > him > > to > > > be > > > > the right thing to do. " > > > > Lately, I have had some doubts of my own and perhaps it is a > good > > > > thing to put them on the table now, before they become too big > to > > > > handle and running away seems the right thing to do. I hope > those > > > who > > > > read this will understand I do not mean to be disrespectful to > > > Shree > > > > Maa or Swamiji, or their teachings, in any way. > > > > Over the past year or so, I have made an effort to familiarize > > > myself > > > > with the teachings and practices Shree Maa and Swamiji so > > > generously > > > > share with us. I learnt how to do puja, how to recite, how to > > > chant. I > > > > read most of the books, and listened to Maa's songs all the > time. > > I > > > > learned to love Her and Swamiji more and more. So I was > overjoyed > > > that > > > > now with the webcam, I could finally see the celebrations and > > > attend > > > > classes. > > > > But now a strange thing has happened: to watch the celebrations > > did > > > > not make me particularly happy. It rather made me sad, as I was > > > > shocked to discover. Partly, this was because I could not > > > physically > > > > be there, and felt isolated at my desk on my own, but for the > > > greater > > > > part it was that I felt an outsider in another way. I felt as > if I > > > had > > > > tried to learn a new language and suddenly realized I would > never > > > be > > > > able to pass for a native speaker. As if a gap had appeared > inside > > > > which I could not cross. And as the days passed, and more > > > celebrations > > > > and classes followed, I found myself longing for the crisp cool > > > sounds > > > > of Gregorian chant and for the 'language' of the tradition I > was > > > > raised in. I longed for the stories I know and for the familiar > > > words. > > > > I felt homesick for the psalms and the saints who have inspired > me > > > > through the years, and instead of Maa Durga on Her lion, in > > > meditation > > > > I thought of the Mother of God crowned with Glory. And as I > > > performed > > > > puja, every word acquired new meaning, because it made perfect > > > sense > > > > applied both to Shiva and to the Lord Jesus. I saw Maa > reflected > > in > > > > Mary, Mary in Maa. > > > > Now, recently it has been said here (by you, Vish?) that Maa > > > > celebrates Christmas and Eastern which as much devotion as > > > Shivaratri > > > > or other festivals. I have seen Swamiji perform both puja and > mass > > > at > > > > Christmas. But They know things that I do not and Their > > > consciousness > > > > embraces all. There is no conflict. But I struggle with this: > > > although > > > > I know that to love God is all, no matter the name or form we > > > choose. > > > > But is it possible to combine two 'languages' for the simple > > > devotee > > > > without becoming hopelessly confused? Once a member of this > family > > > > told me it is better to stick to one tradition, at least if you > > > mean > > > > business (I paraphrase), and I understand why this is so. But > the > > > > heart has its own ideas and has started to speak now in this > > > language, > > > > now in that. Is it the right thing to do to listen to both > voices > > > and > > > > give expression to both? Is it the right thing to do to combine > > > > Sanskrit and Latin? Is it wise to read St Teresa and Shankara? > To > > > sing > > > > with Shree Maa and with the Montserrat choir? To recite Lord's > > > Prayer > > > > and the Guru Gita? Or is this desire to make both worlds one, > to > > > > integrate those parts, the equivalent of the gold watch given > by > > > our > > > > parents, which, although beautiful in itself and presented with > > the > > > > best intentions, is best thrown away before one gets carried > away? > > > > > > > > I would be very happy to hear the thoughts of my brothers and > > > sisters > > > > on this matter and I wonder if perhaps someone else, coming > from a > > > > Christian background, has had the same experience. > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > Henny > > > > > > > > , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tanmaya, > > > > > > > > > > You never told that story before. It made me feel sad too. I > > have > > > > > observed the Guru put tremendous love and attention on their > > > > > disciples. Then, one day, for no reason I can fathom, the > > disciple > > > > > departs. The Master gives and gives, but, if the student stops > > > > > receiving, the connection is severed. > > > > > The ego is so crafty. We must be so vigilant and stay in > contact > > > > with > > > > > the Master, no matter how confused we become, because, the > > Master > > > > > holds the key. They will always see thru the clouds of > delusion > > > and > > > > > can remove our doubts. As long as we want them to. > > > > > > > > > > Jai Maa Jai Swami > > > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , " ty_maa " <dsjames@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " No idea how crafty " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vishweshwar, > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to share a story (maybe I told it before long > back) > > > about > > > > the > > > > > > career of a monastic brother. > > > > > > > > > > > > This brother had all the good qualities: he could meditate, > he > > > > knew > > > > > > Sanskrit, he was a good singer of devotional songs, he was > > very > > > > > > personable--and the favorite of all the visiting abbotts. > He > > was > > > > > > generally thought to be a sure success in spirtiual life. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although, like the others, he had only limited > communication > > > with > > > > his > > > > > > family in the outside world, once, on his birthday, he > walked > > > into > > > > the > > > > > > abbott's room to joyfully show his Guru the new watch which > > his > > > > parents > > > > > > had just sent him as a gift. > > > > > > > > > > > > To his suprise and chagrin , the Guru quietly looked up for > a > > > > moment, > > > > > > and then, suddenly and forcefully pointiing to the corner > of > > > his > > > > room, > > > > > > said, " throw it in the wastebasket-- now! > > > > > > > > > > > > The brother was unable to speak, he was so dumbfounded by > the > > > > order. He > > > > > > very slowly backed out of the room and silently went up the > > > stairs > > > > to > > > > > > his own room to ponder what had just happened. He knew that > he > > > had > > > > > > disobeyed his Guru; and that caused him great sorrow. But > he > > > also > > > > > > thought that the order his Guru had given him was so > > outlandish > > > > and so > > > > > > unreasonable that he gradually began to rationalize his > > > response. > > > > > > > > > > > > As time passed, the Guru was as loving and kind to him as > > > > > > ever--although, it gradually became apparent to the brother > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > Guru's conversation with him was on a more general, even > > > somewhat > > > > > > superficial, level than before. His Guru no longer spoke to > > him > > > > about > > > > > > his spiritual life and training; rather, he conversed with > him > > > > more as > > > > > > he did to visitors-- about their families, the state of the > > > world, > > > > and > > > > > > so forth. > > > > > > > > > > > > This hurt the brother; and he was wise enough to understand > > > that > > > > he had > > > > > > broken a special relationship between himself and his Guru > by > > > his > > > > > > disobedience;. Nevertheless, he couldn't bring himself to > > > return > > > > to the > > > > > > Guru's room and dispose of the watch which his parents had > so > > > > lovingly > > > > > > sent him for his birthday, as he was certain he must do to > set > > > > right his > > > > > > mistake. Why was the Guru so unreasonable? It was only a > > watch! > > > > There > > > > > > was no danger--it was not something worldly after all-just > a > > > > useful tool > > > > > > like many other brothers wore. > > > > > > > > > > > > Things went on like this for a while; and then the watch > > > stopped. > > > > This > > > > > > upset the brother very much because it was expensive and > still > > > > > > practically new. And he was quite sure the Abbott would not > > > budget > > > > for a > > > > > > watch repair given the circumstances. In any case, he > didn't > > > want > > > > to > > > > > > bring the subject up. So, after some thought, he decided to > go > > > to > > > > the > > > > > > library and get a book on watch repair. Which he did. > > > > > > > > > > > > To his great delight, the brother found that he was indeed > > able > > > to > > > > > > repair the watch using the book, and that it again was > running > > > and > > > > > > keeping perfect time. And it didn't cost anybody a thing. > In > > > fact, > > > > he > > > > > > was so happy about his success that he offered to repair > > another > > > > > > brother's watch that had lately stopped--and he was > successful > > > > with that > > > > > > one too! > > > > > > > > > > > > He began to think that he could be of useful service to the > > > > monastery by > > > > > > this means, and he was soon studying more about the > workings > > of > > > > watches, > > > > > > and working on them late into the night. He didn't do this > > > during > > > > the > > > > > > normal hours because he still thought that his Guru might > > > > disapprove. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then, one day he suddenly left the monastery. There was no > > > > particular > > > > > > reason; it just seemed to him to be the right thing to do. > The > > > > Swamis > > > > > > and his peers were suprised and disappointed, but there was > > > > nothing they > > > > > > could say to change his mind. So, he left and got a job in > a > > > > nearby > > > > > > hardware store. After that, he joined one of the armed > > services. > > > > > > > > > > > > When he was released from the service, he used his G.I. > loan > > to > > > > go to > > > > > > the University at Berleley for a degree in engineering. > Before > > > > long, > > > > > > after graduating, he found himself in Silicon Valley, where > he > > > > soon > > > > > > started a company which manufactured a computer chip of his > > own > > > > design. > > > > > > And he sold a lot of them--a whole lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact, soon, though still quite a young man, he had > become a > > > > > > multimillionare. > > > > > > > > > > > > I had the opportunity to see him once. One day, when I was > > > paying > > > > a > > > > > > visit to his old ashram he also stopped by that day for the > > > first > > > > time > > > > > > after leaving. He drove up in an expensive red sports cars, > > and > > > a > > > > pretty > > > > > > blond girl waited in the car while he entered the ashram > for a > > > few > > > > > > minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the Swamis and brothers greeted him and spoke in a very > > > > friendly way > > > > > > about his successful life and other things in general. > After a > > > > short > > > > > > visit he drove off, and the brothers returned to their > various > > > > tasks. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't exactly say why, but for some time afterward I felt > a > > > > great > > > > > > emptiness and loneliness somewhere inside. > > > > > > It couldn't be for the young man who had just driven off in > > his > > > > red > > > > > > sports car because he was full of joy and his life was > > exciting > > > > and > > > > > > before him. Nor could my sadness have been for the > brothers; > > > they > > > > very > > > > > > soon forgot him in their tasks and spiritual practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe it was for the old Abbott and Guru--who saw more than > he > > > > could > > > > > > explain, but who could only speak his Truth as he saw it, > even > > > as > > > > he > > > > > > knew that it could not change what was to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the loneliness I felt must have been for the old > Abbott > > > who > > > > had > > > > > > lost his monastic son. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanmaya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In > , " inspectionconnection108 " > > > > > > <inspectionconnection108@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaste > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A perfect statement. Action, either for thee or me. > > > > > > > I remember once talking to Maa about some drama my ego > was > > > > creating. > > > > > > > I said I could not believe how crafty the ego was. Maa > said, > > > in > > > > > > > essense, " you have not idea how crafty " . > > > > > > > I remember that often, in fact daily, as I watch my small > > > self > > > > get me > > > > > > > into one problem after another. > > > > > > > Fortunately, She is there to catch me when I fall, and > She > > > > encourages > > > > > > > me to get up, dust off, and get back on the bucking > bronco. > > > > > > > How truly blessed to have Her as a Guru and Mother. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Ma Jai Swami > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vishweshwar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , shreemaadevotee@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daily Reflection > > > > > > > > March 3 - Spirituality > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every action that we produce in life has two > > possibilities. > > > > It will > > > > > > > be for > > > > > > > > me or for Thee. Either I am acting motivated by > > selfishness > > > > or I am > > > > > > > acting > > > > > > > > motivated by surrender. There are some really fine > shades > > > of > > > > gray > > > > > > > where we think > > > > > > > > we are surrendering, but are actually enhancing our > > egotism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from The Guru and the Goddess > > > > > > > > Copyright 1995, 1998 Devi Mandir Publications > > > > > > > > Third Edition > > > > > > > > www.shreemaa.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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