Guest guest Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 , " maadevi55 " <maadevi55 wrote: > > > For those who take refuge in Me, even if they took birth in a sinful > womb, or as women, as business people or as laborers, all attain the > supreme refuge. > > > > Bhagavad Gita (Chap 9 vs32) - Published by the Devi Mandir > > > > Om sanatani mayavidmahe > > Jñana praka´sayai dhimahe > > Tanno ´sri mam pracodayat > Help! Please respectfully allow me to take refuge in Lord Krishna, who is the very personification of the Brahman Itself, no different then dear Mother Chamunda, and express my wish that I may attain the Supreme Refuge! Yes, my reason tells me that in this verse, which begins and ends with the Supreme, ultimately there are no differences in the One- Without-a-Second and through devotion and sadhana we all can attain the Supreme Refuge. Yet the alarms still go off inside me! How can I best understand this? It raises a conflict in my mind over the idea of social hierarchies with assigned values of pure/impure vs. the idea of Non-Duality. Since childhood I have always resisted the idea that people could be impure because of birth, sex/gender, social status or income, regardless of what my aristocratic mother tried to teach me. (As an elder, my mom became much more liberal in her views) When I come across passages like the above in the scriptures, my alarms go off and I feel a definite resistance coming up within me. It can sometimes lead to a full-blown courtroom trial argument in my mind about whether the statement holds up for me or not! Then I remember that an aversion/resistance pattern can be an obstacle in yoga...and again, if I wasn't identified with this woman's body I seem to find myself in, who is there to be offended? I hope that these words convey my devotion and respect as well as my inner dilemma. Yes, I can kindly ask my mind to drop it and shut up and do the mantra, but that only works until I come to the next scriptural passage or commentary that sets off the alarms again! What is the best way to understand this and/or to deal with the resistance? Thank-You Shree Maa and Swamiji and Friends in advance for considering this child's request. Sincerely. Leela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Hi Leela! Well, there is a way to look at this verse without any prejudicial colorings if you look at it simply in terms of karma. All of us assume part of our karmas from our parents at birth, both good and bad. That is why, or so I have read, that members of families are so much alike. Each of the groups mentioned can be broadly (these are very broad ways to generalize individuals) understood to have their own types of karmic obstacles, perhaps greed and pride for the businessmen and coarseness and shame for those of " sinful wombs " . We all have baggage. I think the point here is that all are treated the same, without judgment, and all have the same opportunity where God is concerned. What could be more egalitarian than that? Jai Maa! Chris , " deviloka " <deviloka wrote: > > , " maadevi55 " <maadevi55@> wrote: > > > > > > For those who take refuge in Me, even if they took birth in a sinful > > womb, or as women, as business people or as laborers, all attain the > > supreme refuge. > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita (Chap 9 vs32) - Published by the Devi Mandir > > > > > > > > Om sanatani mayavidmahe > > > > Jñana praka´sayai dhimahe > > > > Tanno ´sri mam pracodayat > > > Help! > Please respectfully allow me to take refuge in Lord Krishna, who is > the very personification of the Brahman Itself, no different then > dear Mother Chamunda, and express my wish that I may attain the > Supreme Refuge! > Yes, my reason tells me that in this verse, which begins and ends > with the Supreme, ultimately there are no differences in the One- > Without-a-Second and through devotion and sadhana we all can attain > the Supreme Refuge. Yet the alarms still go off inside me! How can I > best understand this? It raises a conflict in my mind over the idea > of social hierarchies with assigned values of pure/impure vs. the > idea of Non-Duality. Since childhood I have always resisted the idea > that people could be impure because of birth, sex/gender, social > status or income, regardless of what my aristocratic mother tried to > teach me. (As an elder, my mom became much more liberal in her views) > When I come across passages like the above in the scriptures, my > alarms go off and I feel a definite resistance coming up within me. > It can sometimes lead to a full-blown courtroom trial argument in my > mind about whether the statement holds up for me or not! Then I > remember that an aversion/resistance pattern can be an obstacle in > yoga...and again, if I wasn't identified with this woman's body I > seem to find myself in, who is there to be offended? > I hope that these words convey my devotion and respect as well as my > inner dilemma. Yes, I can kindly ask my mind to drop it and shut up > and do the mantra, but that only works until I come to the next > scriptural passage or commentary that sets off the alarms again! > What is the best way to understand this and/or to deal with the > resistance? > Thank-You Shree Maa and Swamiji and Friends in advance for > considering this child's request. > Sincerely. > Leela > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Namaste Leela! I offer the commentary on this Bhagavad Gita verse from Paramahansa Yoganandaji: " Stanza 32 does not cast a slur against women and those of low birth and worldly businessmen (Vaishyas) and body-identified laborers (Sudras). No scripture suggests that these are the " worst among sinners " ! The meaning is: For a true devotee all social inequalities are negated. Unlike society, God never disqualifies anyone because of occupation, sex, or birth. In reality the " family tree " of all beings is divinely impressive. Are they not children of the Most High, an coheirs to an eternal kingdom? " I hope this offering helps. Love, yogini , " deviloka " <deviloka wrote: > > , " maadevi55 " <maadevi55@> wrote: > > > > > > For those who take refuge in Me, even if they took birth in a sinful > > womb, or as women, as business people or as laborers, all attain the > > supreme refuge. > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita (Chap 9 vs32) - Published by the Devi Mandir > > > > > > > > Om sanatani mayavidmahe > > > > Jñana praka´sayai dhimahe > > > > Tanno ´sri mam pracodayat > > > Help! > Please respectfully allow me to take refuge in Lord Krishna, who is > the very personification of the Brahman Itself, no different then > dear Mother Chamunda, and express my wish that I may attain the > Supreme Refuge! > Yes, my reason tells me that in this verse, which begins and ends > with the Supreme, ultimately there are no differences in the One- > Without-a-Second and through devotion and sadhana we all can attain > the Supreme Refuge. Yet the alarms still go off inside me! How can I > best understand this? It raises a conflict in my mind over the idea > of social hierarchies with assigned values of pure/impure vs. the > idea of Non-Duality. Since childhood I have always resisted the idea > that people could be impure because of birth, sex/gender, social > status or income, regardless of what my aristocratic mother tried to > teach me. (As an elder, my mom became much more liberal in her views) > When I come across passages like the above in the scriptures, my > alarms go off and I feel a definite resistance coming up within me. > It can sometimes lead to a full-blown courtroom trial argument in my > mind about whether the statement holds up for me or not! Then I > remember that an aversion/resistance pattern can be an obstacle in > yoga...and again, if I wasn't identified with this woman's body I > seem to find myself in, who is there to be offended? > I hope that these words convey my devotion and respect as well as my > inner dilemma. Yes, I can kindly ask my mind to drop it and shut up > and do the mantra, but that only works until I come to the next > scriptural passage or commentary that sets off the alarms again! > What is the best way to understand this and/or to deal with the > resistance? > Thank-You Shree Maa and Swamiji and Friends in advance for > considering this child's request. > Sincerely. > Leela > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Thank-You Chris and Thank-You Yogini! It is a very blessed thing to have co-pilgrims on the path who can share responses when we have doubts! And Lord Krishna certainly does negate social karmas( " The meaning is: For a true devotee all social inequalities are negated. " ) This is good, I can see it in the verse. I also feel that the path of Bhakti is very universal and the names of God are very purifying. There is more " stuff " behind this inner conflict that I have that has been raised by this verse, such as my experience in a very conservative Vaishnava temple where women are considered to be impure and treated accordingly and reading texts such as Viveka Chudamani, but this subject may be beyond the scope of this forum. Perhaps it is all a false duality that will be resolved in the Thousand-Petaled Lotus in the Crown Chakra. My love and appreciation to all Leela > , " yoginah108 " <yoginah108 wrote: > > Namaste Leela! > I offer the commentary on this Bhagavad Gita verse > from Paramahansa Yoganandaji: > > " Stanza 32 does not cast a slur against women and those of low birth > and worldly businessmen (Vaishyas) and body-identified laborers > (Sudras). No scripture suggests that these are the " worst among > sinners " ! The meaning is: For a true devotee all social inequalities > are negated. > > Unlike society, God never disqualifies anyone because of occupation, > sex, or birth. In reality the " family tree " of all beings is divinely > impressive. Are they not children of the Most High, an coheirs to an > eternal kingdom? " > > I hope this offering helps. > > Love, > yogini > > > > , " deviloka " <deviloka@> wrote: > > > > , " maadevi55 " <maadevi55@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > For those who take refuge in Me, even if they took birth in a > sinful > > > womb, or as women, as business people or as laborers, all attain > the > > > supreme refuge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita (Chap 9 vs32) - Published by the Devi Mandir > > > > > > > > > > > > Om sanatani mayavidmahe > > > > > > Jñana praka´sayai dhimahe > > > > > > Tanno ´sri mam pracodayat > > > > > Help! > > Please respectfully allow me to take refuge in Lord Krishna, who is > > the very personification of the Brahman Itself, no different then > > dear Mother Chamunda, and express my wish that I may attain the > > Supreme Refuge! > > Yes, my reason tells me that in this verse, which begins and ends > > with the Supreme, ultimately there are no differences in the One- > > Without-a-Second and through devotion and sadhana we all can attain > > the Supreme Refuge. Yet the alarms still go off inside me! How can > I > > best understand this? It raises a conflict in my mind over the idea > > of social hierarchies with assigned values of pure/impure vs. the > > idea of Non-Duality. Since childhood I have always resisted the > idea > > that people could be impure because of birth, sex/gender, social > > status or income, regardless of what my aristocratic mother tried > to > > teach me. (As an elder, my mom became much more liberal in her > views) > > When I come across passages like the above in the scriptures, my > > alarms go off and I feel a definite resistance coming up within me. > > It can sometimes lead to a full-blown courtroom trial argument in > my > > mind about whether the statement holds up for me or not! Then I > > remember that an aversion/resistance pattern can be an obstacle in > > yoga...and again, if I wasn't identified with this woman's body I > > seem to find myself in, who is there to be offended? > > I hope that these words convey my devotion and respect as well as > my > > inner dilemma. Yes, I can kindly ask my mind to drop it and shut up > > and do the mantra, but that only works until I come to the next > > scriptural passage or commentary that sets off the alarms again! > > What is the best way to understand this and/or to deal with the > > resistance? > > Thank-You Shree Maa and Swamiji and Friends in advance for > > considering this child's request. > > Sincerely. > > Leela > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I certainly can't speak for the teachings of the Vaishnava temple you mentioned, but for myself, I have always considered women to be generally more pure of heart than men. Jai Maa! Chris , " deviloka " <deviloka wrote: > > Thank-You Chris and Thank-You Yogini! It is a very blessed thing to > have co-pilgrims on the path who can share responses when we have > doubts! And Lord Krishna certainly does negate social karmas( " The > meaning is: For a true devotee all social inequalities are negated. " ) > This is good, I can see it in the verse. I also feel that the path of > Bhakti is very universal and the names of God are very purifying. > There is more " stuff " behind this inner conflict that I have that has > been raised by this verse, such as my experience in a very > conservative Vaishnava temple where women are considered to be impure > and treated accordingly and reading texts such as Viveka Chudamani, > but this subject may be beyond the scope of this forum. Perhaps it is > all a false duality that will be resolved in the Thousand-Petaled > Lotus in the Crown Chakra. > My love and appreciation to all > Leela > > > > > > , " yoginah108 " <yoginah108@> > wrote: > > > > Namaste Leela! > > I offer the commentary on this Bhagavad Gita verse > > from Paramahansa Yoganandaji: > > > > " Stanza 32 does not cast a slur against women and those of low > birth > > and worldly businessmen (Vaishyas) and body-identified laborers > > (Sudras). No scripture suggests that these are the " worst among > > sinners " ! The meaning is: For a true devotee all social > inequalities > > are negated. > > > > Unlike society, God never disqualifies anyone because of > occupation, > > sex, or birth. In reality the " family tree " of all beings is > divinely > > impressive. Are they not children of the Most High, an coheirs to > an > > eternal kingdom? " > > > > I hope this offering helps. > > > > Love, > > yogini > > > > > > > > , " deviloka " <deviloka@> wrote: > > > > > > , " maadevi55 " <maadevi55@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > For those who take refuge in Me, even if they took birth in a > > sinful > > > > womb, or as women, as business people or as laborers, all > attain > > the > > > > supreme refuge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita (Chap 9 vs32) - Published by the Devi Mandir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om sanatani mayavidmahe > > > > > > > > Jñana praka´sayai dhimahe > > > > > > > > Tanno ´sri mam pracodayat > > > > > > > Help! > > > Please respectfully allow me to take refuge in Lord Krishna, who > is > > > the very personification of the Brahman Itself, no different then > > > dear Mother Chamunda, and express my wish that I may attain the > > > Supreme Refuge! > > > Yes, my reason tells me that in this verse, which begins and ends > > > with the Supreme, ultimately there are no differences in the One- > > > Without-a-Second and through devotion and sadhana we all can > attain > > > the Supreme Refuge. Yet the alarms still go off inside me! How > can > > I > > > best understand this? It raises a conflict in my mind over the > idea > > > of social hierarchies with assigned values of pure/impure vs. the > > > idea of Non-Duality. Since childhood I have always resisted the > > idea > > > that people could be impure because of birth, sex/gender, social > > > status or income, regardless of what my aristocratic mother tried > > to > > > teach me. (As an elder, my mom became much more liberal in her > > views) > > > When I come across passages like the above in the scriptures, my > > > alarms go off and I feel a definite resistance coming up within > me. > > > It can sometimes lead to a full-blown courtroom trial argument in > > my > > > mind about whether the statement holds up for me or not! Then I > > > remember that an aversion/resistance pattern can be an obstacle > in > > > yoga...and again, if I wasn't identified with this woman's body I > > > seem to find myself in, who is there to be offended? > > > I hope that these words convey my devotion and respect as well as > > my > > > inner dilemma. Yes, I can kindly ask my mind to drop it and shut > up > > > and do the mantra, but that only works until I come to the next > > > scriptural passage or commentary that sets off the alarms again! > > > What is the best way to understand this and/or to deal with the > > > resistance? > > > Thank-You Shree Maa and Swamiji and Friends in advance for > > > considering this child's request. > > > Sincerely. > > > Leela > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Dear Friends, Regarding the discussion on of vs 32 of the Bhavagad Gita, the text below was given by Swamiji during an online class and can be heard in it's entirety by following the link. "There is no distinction as to gender, caste, occupation. Any body who takes refuge in God even if they were born of a sinful womb or if they acted in a sinful manner there is no discrimination of gender, of occupation, of a caste; all attain the Supreme Refuge. Pranam. http://www.shreemaa.org/drupal/node/933 , "Chris" <sadyojataya wrote:>> Hi Leela!> > Well, there is a way to look at this verse without any prejudicial> colorings if you look at it simply in terms of karma. All of us assume> part of our karmas from our parents at birth, both good and bad. That> is why, or so I have read, that members of families are so much alike.> Each of the groups mentioned can be broadly (these are very broad> ways to generalize individuals) understood to have their own types of> karmic obstacles, perhaps greed and pride for the businessmen and> coarseness and shame for those of "sinful wombs". We all have baggage.> > I think the point here is that all are treated the same, without> judgment, and all have the same opportunity where God is concerned.> What could be more egalitarian than that?> > Jai Maa!> Chris> > > > > , "deviloka" deviloka@ wrote:> >> > , "maadevi55" <maadevi55@> wrote:> > >> > > > > > For those who take refuge in Me, even if they took birth in a sinful> > > womb, or as women, as business people or as laborers, all attain the> > > supreme refuge.> > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita (Chap 9 vs32) - Published by the Devi Mandir> > > > > > > > > > > > Om sanatani mayavidmahe> > > > > > Jñana praka´sayai dhimahe> > > > > > Tanno ´sri mam pracodayat> > >> > Help!> > Please respectfully allow me to take refuge in Lord Krishna, who is > > the very personification of the Brahman Itself, no different then > > dear Mother Chamunda, and express my wish that I may attain the > > Supreme Refuge! > > Yes, my reason tells me that in this verse, which begins and ends > > with the Supreme, ultimately there are no differences in the One-> > Without-a-Second and through devotion and sadhana we all can attain > > the Supreme Refuge. Yet the alarms still go off inside me! How can I > > best understand this? It raises a conflict in my mind over the idea > > of social hierarchies with assigned values of pure/impure vs. the > > idea of Non-Duality. Since childhood I have always resisted the idea > > that people could be impure because of birth, sex/gender, social > > status or income, regardless of what my aristocratic mother tried to > > teach me. (As an elder, my mom became much more liberal in her views)> > When I come across passages like the above in the scriptures, my > > alarms go off and I feel a definite resistance coming up within me. > > It can sometimes lead to a full-blown courtroom trial argument in my > > mind about whether the statement holds up for me or not! Then I > > remember that an aversion/resistance pattern can be an obstacle in > > yoga...and again, if I wasn't identified with this woman's body I > > seem to find myself in, who is there to be offended?> > I hope that these words convey my devotion and respect as well as my > > inner dilemma. Yes, I can kindly ask my mind to drop it and shut up > > and do the mantra, but that only works until I come to the next > > scriptural passage or commentary that sets off the alarms again!> > What is the best way to understand this and/or to deal with the > > resistance?> > Thank-You Shree Maa and Swamiji and Friends in advance for > > considering this child's request.> > Sincerely.> > Leela> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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