Guest guest Posted June 27, 1999 Report Share Posted June 27, 1999 Dear Dr. Shah, Thank you so much... such a truthful and meaningful writing. The heart knows that everything you say below is true, and is grateful. In Gratitude, Tim At 11:21 PM 6/26/99 +0530, you wrote: >Dr C S Shah <drcssha > >Reincarnation is to be seen as ongoing tendencies of human race. >I have desire to become rich, somebody has desire to get a Nobel Prize, >still others have some hatred, some jealousy, some love; name these >desires, tendencies, and these are innumerable. Reincarnation means >perpetuation of these desires or tendencies in human beings. >There is no test to prove that I or you, or somebody else will take >birth in the same body and remember that. >There is no 'test' one can take to learn if one might have lived >a previous life. >But when you see something good and noble think that your noble thoughts >have reincarnated there, and same is the case with other not-so-good >tendencies also. >Therefore, the scriptures advocate: >1. To think good and noble thoughts alone, >2. To pray for the welfare of all including ourselves, >3. Certain spiritual practices to reduce desires themselves. > " As you sow, so you reap " , this applied to DESIRES is what we call >reincarnation. >When a person dies, the only " death " is that of the physical body. The >mind, which contains a person's mental impressions, continues after the >body's death. When the person is reborn, the " birth " is of a new >physical body accompanied by the old mind with the impressions or > " grooves " from previous lives. When the environment becomes conducive, >these tendencies-- samskaras-- again reassert themselves in the new >life. >Thankfully, this process doesn't go on eternally. When we attain >God-realization or Self-realization, the law of karma is transcended, >the Self gives up its identification with the body and mind, and regains >its native freedom, perfection and bliss. ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Dr C S Shah wrote: > Dr C S Shah <drcssha > > Reincarnation is to be seen as ongoing tendencies of human race. > I have desire to become rich, somebody has desire to get a Nobel Prize, > still others have some hatred, some jealousy, some love; name these > desires, tendencies, and these are innumerable. Reincarnation means > perpetuation of these desires or tendencies in human beings. > There is no test to prove that I or you, or somebody else will take > birth in the same body and remember that. > There is no 'test' one can take to learn if one might have lived > a previous life. R u saying that one can't know wat one was in previous life ? > But when you see something good and noble think that your noble thoughts > have reincarnated there, and same is the case with other not-so-good > tendencies also. > Therefore, the scriptures advocate: > 1. To think good and noble thoughts alone, > 2. To pray for the welfare of all including ourselves, > 3. Certain spiritual practices to reduce desires themselves. > " As you sow, so you reap " , this applied to DESIRES is what we call > reincarnation. > When a person dies, the only " death " is that of the physical body. The > mind, which contains a person's mental impressions, continues after the > body's death. Is it mind goes along with the soul or is it the soul distorted by the impressions of mind. When the person is reborn, the " birth " is of a new > physical body accompanied by the old mind with the impressions or > " grooves " from previous lives. When the environment becomes conducive, > these tendencies-- samskaras-- again reassert themselves in the new > life. > Thankfully, this process doesn't go on eternally. When we attain > God-realization or Self-realization, the law of karma is transcended, > the Self gives up its identification with the body and mind, and regains > its native freedom, perfection and bliss. > > dr c s shah > -- What happens after one has identified oneself ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Vivekananda Centre wrote: > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > The following questions and answers on reincarnation may be of interest to > others on the list. I am not an expert on this theory but have attempted to > put across some of the interesting ideas that come across through this > dialogue with Ron. > ....jay > > > Reincarnation: > > >Message: 1 > > Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:09:58 -0400 > > " Ron Hooft " > >Re: Some questions? > > > >I now have a question for you, Jay. > > > >The idea of reincarnation is a complex one and one that has raised a number > of questions for me. Questions that seem to suggest an unworkability for me. > > > >How does a soul enter a new body? When? Can a person be born without one? > >Would it be conscious? > > The popular idea in reincarnation is that soul associates itself with the > conceived cell at the time of conception. Consciousness is the 'key' that is > associated with the idea of the 'soul' hence it can be said the cell on > conception becomes 'conscious'. Jay i too think so as was told by a yogi something similar to this abt soul associating itself with the concieved cell. > > >These are genaric questions because thye apply to both christianity and > >Hinduism. (in fact, they apply to all religions that believe in a soul.) > >Are we drawn to them? Do we wait until a couple has sex and slip in when we > >know it has taken? Do we as souls fight over the new body? Is it like > >sperm, a competition to see who gets there first? > > I do not think there is any fight regarding which soul is born. The idea > behind reincarnation is that the individual with all his/her inherent > qualities will 'feel at one' with the 'right' cell at conception and thus > begins rebirth. > > I remember a yogi saying that there in other world too there is a crowd competing with each other to get in to the body. Also that the individual will take birth according to all his/her inherent qualities. > >The logistics don't seem to make sense to me. A dead and lifeless body > >suddenly has life only when this soul enters it? Where does it enter? When, > >and how? > > The logistics are all right if you accept the hierarchy associated with the > idea of body, mind and consciousness. The mind and soul (consciousness) > cannot be defined as being here or there in space or time and ideas of it > moving from here to there are meaningless. Ideas of here and there - > entering here - leaving there are concepts of the mind - hence to say the > mind/consciousness was here and then moved there in space/time is > meaningless. (Space/time are concepts of the mind so how can something which > is a by-product of the mind dictate these qualities to the mind and > consciousness?). The best words I can use are like 'spontaneously feel at > one with' > There should be a concieved cell. Prana should be there n soul too for a life to grow. Mind will exist by itself where these three are by itself. I think so. Soul will leave body when there is no prana in the body or may be when prana is not there in the vital organs of the body. Seed will grow in correct ambience n soul too should enter it. > >Christians, of course, see god taking the time to put each little soul in a > >body. How does Hinduism see it? > > Hinduism does not have God sitting and sorting out individual souls. They > say just as all physical objects move by law of cause and effect - in the > same manner the mind complex of the individual too moves along driven by the > law of cause and effect. Each mind complex will feel at one with another > cell at conception and continue its journey dictated by law of cause and > effect (sometimes referred to as law of karma). People saying Hinduism n Christainism sound like saying different science for different countries. I don't know abt Hinduism or Christainism but here is something which i got to know. If one wants can manipulate with the reincarnation of the soul but will have to make conditions favourable ( interests n karmas of the parents) for the specific soul to enter the specific body. > > >What I see is a constant imigration and emegration of atoms and particles > >through out our body at all times. > >This is a form of constant dying and rebirth. I can see it in the theory of > >the big bang, where the universe expands and then falls back in on itself > >only to expand again. Those are practical and logical forms of > reincarnation. > > Ideas of cycles are interesting!! You can even say that a straight line is > really the circumference of a circle with an infinite radius! I think to understand can a separate soul exist we should know wat leaves the body after death. Sure soul leaves but impurity (distortions) is alao there. Now in wat form is this impurity present. Following the philosphy of realizing lord it can said that distortions create soul as separate. When soul is free from distortions it unites with universal. Considering Lord as universal soul . When we sleep five senses n related organs don't function that much as when we r awake. But still we know that we r someone. So we can't be these organs. > > >But a separate soul that has to jump in and out of envelopes? The logistics > >are just not there for me. > >Ron > > Let me give you some interesting possibilities that reincarnation offers > that may get everyone thinking. > > (1) Even if one case is found (we have to make sure there is no fraud) where > one individual is able to recount his/her past life in vivid detail > (including some information that absolutely no one would have known) -- then > Science has to take on the challenge and try and answer, " How did this > information travel? " There may be no genetic relationship between the two > personalities. > Earlier you had objected to this and suggested that some kind of 'atomic > blueprint' was somehow left behind by the first personality and then it got > transferred to the other personality through the food chain...... > Well we then have to find an incident with two personalities where no food > chain link could be possible due to geographic/physical restraints. (I am > pretty sure you will find such incidents). Then what other physical > phenomenon would science use? Science has to tackle this question -- How did > the information travel??? Where can the blue print be left. In air it can't remain intact. > (2) Ideas of why identical twins both brought up in the same environment > will exhibit different characters -- better explained. Jay i am thinking of two or three souls present in the same body. Mother with two or three children in womb. Some how it sounds ineresting. One starts learning when one is still in womb. I don't know if this process starts after development of knowledge collecting organs in child in womb or even before there formation. It can be that mind of the mother n surroundigs can't affect the twins in exactly a similar way. > (3) Child prodigies -- better explained. yes > > (4) Phobias -- say fire, heights, water - may be better explained by saying > perhaps the person died through the above in the past life hence the severe > fear of heights, fire or water etc. good thinking jay. Jay as mind affects body. Therefore we can even find some change in the physical body due to these phobias. > > (5) Strong physical attraction towards person or people of the same > gender -- a better explanation may be that the individual(s) have switched > genders in the process of rebirth (this is accepted in the theory of > reincarnation) hence this physical attraction towards the same gender > remains as the mind carries the inherent characteristics while the body is > now of different gender.....interesting explanation! > yes i have heard that many people feel that they are female/male but bodily this is not the case. > I am sure list members can give lots of pros and cons on both sides of the > debate. Let us see what the other members make of reincarnation? > > jay > There are sadhanas which can be done u one can even see one's past twentieth life . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Dear friends, The following write-up may be of interest to some. dr c s shah > Vivekananda Centre wrote: > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > The following questions and answers on reincarnation may be of interest to others on the list. >>> What I see is a constant imigration and emegration of atoms and particles through out our body at all times. This is a form of constant dying and rebirth. I can see it in the theory of the big bang, where the universe expands and then falls back in on itself only to expand again. Those are practical and logical forms of reincarnation. >>> *** Reincarnation *** A Hypothesis Desires, thoughts, and tendencies are particular modes of existence of matter. Matter evolves as Will. Will is the material and compound manifestation of the Reality. The Will gets modified into a) The Supreme Intelligence -Mahat, that subsequently evolves into b) The Primal Energy -Prana, and c) The Primal Matter -Akasha. These are the finer aspects of the matter. They evolve into subatomic particles. Subatomic particles are units of matter smaller than an atom, otherwise known as elementary particles. These particles are the basic units of all matter and energy. Many subatomic particles have been identified. These elementary particles are also the fundamental units of electromagnetic radiation, which includes radio waves, visible light, and X-rays. This progress in physics has proved energy to be another mode of existence of matter. These basic particles further rearrange as five elements of Indian belief system: Ether, Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. Various combinations of these elements result in the formation of three Gunas -sattva, rajas, and tamas. Desires are various combinations of these Gunas. Desire and tendencies (or mind in general), therefore, can be equated with another 'energy form of matter', which one label as thought-waves. Its objectification, at still grosser level, produces various combinations of " name and form " -nama-rupa, for instance: stars, planets, oceans, trees, animals, human beings, and so on. 'Time, space and causation' bring about distortions, and each form reflects incomplete manifestation of One Absolute Consciousness. It is said that the desire at the time of death plays important part in the reincarnation of an individual. The dominant thought-process, or tendency, brings forth that kind of desire at the time of leaving the mortal body. For instance, a person engaged in business and constantly worked up in the accounts of profit and loss all through his life will have that thought as a predominant one at that hour. He may reincarnate to fulfill that tendency in his next life. However, the body he will get would be different. If a person has done a great wrong to somebody, or feels that he has been greatly wronged, then that thought may become the dominant thought at the time of departure and he would reincarnate to correct the wrong-doing by peaceful compromise or violent revenge. Similar logic can be applied in all the cases. As thoughts and desires are innumerable, and it is not possible to read the minds of the people, it cannot be said with certainty with what desire or thought a person has left the body. It may be a desire to do good to the world or oneself, or the person might have breathed his last with destructive tendencies of hatred, revenge, etc. Accordingly, good and bad people will always be present in this world. * " As you sow, so you reap " , this applied to DESIRES is what we call reincarnation. When a person dies, the only " death " is that of the physical body. The mind, which contains a person's mental impressions, continues after the body's death. When the person is reborn, the " birth " is of a new physical body accompanied by the old mind with the impressions or " grooves " from previous lives. When the environment becomes conducive, these tendencies-- samskaras-- again reassert themselves in the new life. Thankfully, this process doesn't go on eternally. When we attain God-realization or Self-realization, the law of karma is transcended, the Self gives up its identification with the body and mind, and regains its native freedom, perfection and bliss. * Reincarnation is to be seen as ongoing tendencies of human race. I have desire to become rich, somebody has desire to get a Nobel Prize, still others have some hatred, some jealousy, some love; name these desires, tendencies, and these are innumerable. Reincarnation means perpetuation of these desires or tendencies in human beings. There is no test to prove that I or you, or somebody else will take birth in the same body and remember that. " There is no 'test' one can take to learn if they might have lived a previous life " But when you see something good and noble think that your noble thoughts have reincarnated there; and same is the case with other not-so-good tendencies also. Therefore, the scriptures advocate 1. To think good and noble thoughts alone, 2. To pray for the welfare of all including ourselves, 3. Certain spiritual practices to reduce desires themselves. * It is agreed that all this may sound too simplistic, but the attempt is made here to give a hypothetical explanation of the concept of reincarnation. It is hoped that many more learned scholars shall throw fresh light on this interesting subject. * For full article on this subject Visit: http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/a05.html Thanks dr c s shah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 hi ., It is said that soul associates itself with the conceived cell at the time of conception. I have a simple question. The human population is increasing at an alarming rate, it seems in the last 100 yrs the population has increased by 4 billion. Where are these new souls coming from? sarvam vasudevamayam jagath Prashanth > From errors-65993-857-gprasha=miel.mot.com Wed Jul 14 22:33 IST 1999 > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > <vedanta > Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:56:33 +0100 > X-Priority: 3 > X-Msmail-Priority: Normal > X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 > Mailing-List: list Ramakrishna ; contact Ramakrishna-owner > Delivered-mailing list Ramakrishna > List-Un: <Ramakrishna- (AT) ONElist (DOT) com> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > [ramakrishna] Reincarnation > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > The following questions and answers on reincarnation may be of interest to > others on the list. I am not an expert on this theory but have attempted to > put across some of the interesting ideas that come across through this > dialogue with Ron. > ....jay > > > Reincarnation: > > >Message: 1 > > Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:09:58 -0400 > > " Ron Hooft " > >Re: Some questions? > > > >I now have a question for you, Jay. > > > >The idea of reincarnation is a complex one and one that has raised a number > of questions for me. Questions that seem to suggest an unworkability for me. > > > >How does a soul enter a new body? When? Can a person be born without one? > >Would it be conscious? > > The popular idea in reincarnation is that soul associates itself with the > conceived cell at the time of conception. Consciousness is the 'key' that is > associated with the idea of the 'soul' hence it can be said the cell on > conception becomes 'conscious'. > > >These are genaric questions because thye apply to both christianity and > >Hinduism. (in fact, they apply to all religions that believe in a soul.) > >Are we drawn to them? Do we wait until a couple has sex and slip in when we > >know it has taken? Do we as souls fight over the new body? Is it like > >sperm, a competition to see who gets there first? > > I do not think there is any fight regarding which soul is born. The idea > behind reincarnation is that the individual with all his/her inherent > qualities will 'feel at one' with the 'right' cell at conception and thus > begins rebirth. > > > >The logistics don't seem to make sense to me. A dead and lifeless body > >suddenly has life only when this soul enters it? Where does it enter? When, > >and how? > > The logistics are all right if you accept the hierarchy associated with the > idea of body, mind and consciousness. The mind and soul (consciousness) > cannot be defined as being here or there in space or time and ideas of it > moving from here to there are meaningless. Ideas of here and there - > entering here - leaving there are concepts of the mind - hence to say the > mind/consciousness was here and then moved there in space/time is > meaningless. (Space/time are concepts of the mind so how can something which > is a by-product of the mind dictate these qualities to the mind and > consciousness?). The best words I can use are like 'spontaneously feel at > one with' > > >Christians, of course, see god taking the time to put each little soul in a > >body. How does Hinduism see it? > > Hinduism does not have God sitting and sorting out individual souls. They > say just as all physical objects move by law of cause and effect - in the > same manner the mind complex of the individual too moves along driven by the > law of cause and effect. Each mind complex will feel at one with another > cell at conception and continue its journey dictated by law of cause and > effect (sometimes referred to as law of karma). > > >What I see is a constant imigration and emegration of atoms and particles > >through out our body at all times. > >This is a form of constant dying and rebirth. I can see it in the theory of > >the big bang, where the universe expands and then falls back in on itself > >only to expand again. Those are practical and logical forms of > reincarnation. > > Ideas of cycles are interesting!! You can even say that a straight line is > really the circumference of a circle with an infinite radius! > > >But a separate soul that has to jump in and out of envelopes? The logistics > >are just not there for me. > >Ron > > Let me give you some interesting possibilities that reincarnation offers > that may get everyone thinking. > > (1) Even if one case is found (we have to make sure there is no fraud) where > one individual is able to recount his/her past life in vivid detail > (including some information that absolutely no one would have known) -- then > Science has to take on the challenge and try and answer, " How did this > information travel? " There may be no genetic relationship between the two > personalities. > Earlier you had objected to this and suggested that some kind of 'atomic > blueprint' was somehow left behind by the first personality and then it got > transferred to the other personality through the food chain...... > Well we then have to find an incident with two personalities where no food > chain link could be possible due to geographic/physical restraints. (I am > pretty sure you will find such incidents). Then what other physical > phenomenon would science use? Science has to tackle this question -- How did > the information travel??? > > (2) Ideas of why identical twins both brought up in the same environment > will exhibit different characters -- better explained. > > (3) Child prodigies -- better explained. > > (4) Phobias -- say fire, heights, water - may be better explained by saying > perhaps the person died through the above in the past life hence the severe > fear of heights, fire or water etc. > > (5) Strong physical attraction towards person or people of the same > gender -- a better explanation may be that the individual(s) have switched > genders in the process of rebirth (this is accepted in the theory of > reincarnation) hence this physical attraction towards the same gender > remains as the mind carries the inherent characteristics while the body is > now of different gender.....interesting explanation! > > I am sure list members can give lots of pros and cons on both sides of the > debate. Let us see what the other members make of reincarnation? > > jay > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Start a new ONElist list & you can WIN great prizes! > > See homepage for details on ONElist's new " FRIENDS & FAMILY " program. > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 I think will is mental. Does soul has a will ? > > *** Reincarnation *** > A Hypothesis > > Desires, thoughts, and tendencies are particular modes of existence of > matter. Matter evolves as Will. Will is the material and compound > manifestation of the Reality. The Will gets modified into > a) The Supreme Intelligence -Mahat, > that subsequently evolves into > b) The Primal Energy -Prana, and > c) The Primal Matter -Akasha. > whose will is it individual's or the supreme one's > These are the finer aspects of the matter. They evolve into subatomic > particles. Subatomic particles are units of matter smaller than an atom, > otherwise known as elementary particles. These particles are the basic > units of all matter and energy. Many subatomic particles have been > identified. > These elementary particles are also the fundamental units of > electromagnetic radiation, which includes radio waves, visible light, R u saying that light is matter. Light is supposed to be there due to sinusoidal fluctuations of the perpendicular magnetic n electrical field. I don't whether the duality of light exhibiting both the qualities of particle n wave has been solved or not. > and X-rays. Well X-rays if i remember correctly has to do somethig with electrons. > This progress in physics has proved energy to be another > mode of existence of matter. > > These basic particles further rearrange as five elements of Indian > belief system: Ether, Air, Fire, Water, and Earth. Various combinations > of these elements result in the formation of three Gunas -sattva, rajas, > and tamas. Desires are various combinations of these Gunas .. Desire and > tendencies (or mind in general), therefore, can be equated with another > 'energy form of matter', which one label as thought-waves. Its > objectification, at still grosser level, produces various combinations > of " name and form " -nama-rupa, for instance: stars, planets, oceans, > trees, animals, human beings, and so on. 'Time, space and causation' > bring about distortions, and each form reflects incomplete manifestation > of One Absolute Consciousness. > I was thinking when the soul leaves the body a part of mind goes with the soul. So wat exists after death is another form of existence soul n a part of mind being the major parts. Presence of Different yonis which don't have physical body may be belong to this class. > It is said that the desire at the time of death plays important part in > the reincarnation of an individual. The dominant thought-process, or > tendency, brings forth that kind of desire at the time of leaving the > mortal body. For instance, a person engaged in business and constantly > worked up in the accounts of profit and loss all through his life will > have that thought as a predominant one at that hour. He may reincarnate > to fulfill that tendency in his next life. > > However, the body he will get would be different. > > If a person has done a great wrong to somebody, or feels that he has > been greatly wronged, then that thought may become the dominant thought > at the time of departure and he would reincarnate to correct the > wrong-doing by peaceful compromise or violent revenge. > > Similar logic can be applied in all the cases. As thoughts and desires > are innumerable, and it is not possible to read the minds of the people, > it cannot be said with certainty with what desire or thought a person > has left the body. It may be a desire to do good to the world or > oneself, or the person might have breathed his last with destructive > tendencies of hatred, revenge, etc. Accordingly, good and bad people > will always be present in this world. > * > " As you sow, so you reap " , this applied to DESIRES is what we call > reincarnation. > When a person dies, the only " death " is that of the physical body. The > mind, which contains a person's mental impressions, continues after the > body's death. When the person is reborn, the " birth " is of a new > physical body accompanied by the old mind with the impressions or > " grooves " from previous lives. When the environment becomes conducive, > these tendencies-- samskaras-- again reassert themselves in the new > life. > Thankfully, this process doesn't go on eternally. When we attain > God-realization or Self-realization, the law of karma is transcended, > the Self gives up its identification with the body and mind, and regains > its native freedom, perfection and bliss. > * > Reincarnation is to be seen as ongoing tendencies of human race. > I have desire to become rich, somebody has desire to get a Nobel Prize, > still others have some hatred, some jealousy, some love; name these > desires, tendencies, and these are innumerable. Reincarnation means > perpetuation of these desires or tendencies in human beings. > There is no test to prove that I or you, or somebody else will take > birth in the same body and remember that. > " There is no 'test' one can take to learn if they might have lived > a previous life " I think u r saying above in light of scientific experiments n reason. One can see one's or anyone's past lives. The only thing is one should know how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Dear friends, >From Absolute Monist point of view, there is no such thing as reincarnation. In fact, nothing exists other than Absolute Consciousness. The talk on reincarnation will always end in dualism which is inadequate to explain anything on the basis of science, as a very important factor of faith is accepted in dualism. Qualified monism also suffers from the same defective logic, factor of faith is added here also. Hence, I feel, all theories which come under the purview of Maya should be discussed, but with malice towards none and love for all. All such concepts such as reincarnation, grace, prayers, etc. are meant to serve only one function, and that is, such theories make us realize the inadequacy of them. They make our resolve firmer to lead our life in making efforts to go beyond them! That is why it is said that even study of and mastery over Vedas and Upanishads is apara vidya, lower knowledge. This knowledge cannot lead us to realization of Truth! dr c s shah -- ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html ==================================== Vivekananda Centre wrote: > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > Re: Reincarnation --Dialogue between Ron and jay. > > Other list members may wish to contribute and take this dialogue further:- > > >>jay's first response to questions about reincarnation from Ron>> > > >> (1) Even if one case is found (we have to make sure there is no fraud) > >>where one individual is able to recount his/her past life in vivid detail > >> (including some information that absolutely no one would have known) -- > >>then Science has to take on the challenge and try and answer, " How did > >>this information travel? " There may be no genetic relationship between the > two > >> personalities. > >> Earlier you had objected to this and suggested that some kind of 'atomic > >> blueprint' was somehow left behind by the first personality and then it > >>got transferred to the other personality through the food chain...... > >> Well we then have to find an incident with two personalities where no > >>food chain link could be possible due to geographic/physical restraints. > >>(I am pretty sure you will find such incidents). Then what other physical > >> phenomenon would science use? Science has to tackle this question -- How > >>did the information travel??? > > Ron's response> > >Since you do know your physics, I am sure you are aware of Bell's theorem. > >I'm sure you are also aware of the fact that Einstein postulated that if > >you created two particles with opposite spin, send them in opposite > directions > >at the speed of light, and then change the spin of one particle, the spin > of the > >other will automatically change. How? Bell suggested superluminals. > > >Well, the experiments have been done now, and even though there is still > >controversy over superluminals, there is no doubt that the phenomenon > >Einstein predicted exists. We have seen it over a ten mile experiment so > >far. Plans are being made to try it over larger distances. > > >Bell said that if this was proven, then it meant that we are intimately > >connected to every part of the universe at the same time. > > > >You said yourself that: " The mind and soul (consciousness) > >cannot be defined as being here or there in space or time and ideas of it > >moving from here to there are meaningless. Ideas of here and there - > >entering here - leaving there are concepts of the mind - hence to say the > >mind/consciousness was here and then moved there in space/time is > >meaningless. (Space/time are concepts of the mind so how can something > >which is a by-product of the mind dictate these qualities to the mind and > >consciousness?). " > > > >Now we know that even a particle of matter already has that connection to > >all. Space/time seems like a meaningless question to it. So even without > > " mind " as a separate thing (Unless you are saying that all matter is mind > as well > >automatically) it seems that matter/energy is intelligible on it's own. > >That mind (awareness) is an inherent part of energy.matter. And that > >consciousness is a by product of a certain configuration of energy/matter. > > Further reply from jay:- > Ron if I understand you correctly you are saying " Bell's experiment > demonstrates that every particle is intrinsically interconnected and hence > the information about reincarnation may have travelled in that fashion and > perhaps not in a normal physical sense " . > > Firstly Bell's experiment has not been able to override law of causality. > Anything travelling faster than the speed of light would do that. No > information can be passed on that can act to violate the law of cause and > effect. After lot of work at the Santa Fe institute they are unable to > devise any experiment which would violate cause and effect. Bells experiment > at best demonstrates that 'uncertainty' can be thought to travel faster than > light but this cannot transfer 'ordered' information which would violate > cause and effect. This is no way demonstrates that 'ordered' information > about one's life has been transferred to another person in this fashion. > To me a person recalling his past life is still be better explained by > reincarnation than by such random interconnectedness. > > Earlier jay had said > >> (2) Ideas of why identical twins both brought up in the same environment > >> will exhibit different characters -- better explained. > > Response from Ron: > >No two people can occupy the same space at the same time. Hence we will > >always have differences in experience. Twins are genetically very similar > >but not usually absolutely identical. > > jay's response > I thought identical twins are genetically same (not similar). > > Also the fact that the twins sit six inches apart in the womb, or maybe a > few feet apart after birth --would account for sometimes very dramatic > difference in personalities does not seem right. > > Earlier jay had said: > >> (3) Child prodigies -- better explained. > > Ron's response > >How does this apply? Genetics can easily account for this. > > further response from jay:- > May be it is true - just accidental genetic ordering may account for child > prodigies. > In my opinion this seems more far fetched than to think of a person who had > disciplined himself in one life and mastered say music then is reborn and > shows his talents at very early age. But I agree the debate can go both ways > on this. > > Earlier jay said: > >> (4) Phobias -- say fire, heights, water - may be better explained by > >>saying perhaps the person died through the above in the past life hence > >>the severe fear of heights, fire or water etc. > > Ron's response:- > >Or it may be trauma or perceived trauma in childhood. I remember an > >incident where I was confronted by a snake. It scared me because it stood > >up and hissed at me, menacingly. I was very small but remember it clearly. > That > >was the first time I was afraid of snakes. It left an impression on in my > brain and > >since then I have been wary of snakes and slightly afraid of them. > > > >All kids are afraid of falling. That is just a natural survival instinct. > >Some develop more fear over the years, some grow less afraid. Some of these > >things are imprinted from mom or dad, both genetically and by example. So > >there are plenty of places we can see answers to these questions without > seeing > >any proof of reincarnation. > > jay's further reply:- > The trauma that goes with this phobias is severe and to me cannot be > explained by say falling off a stool in childhood and being frightened of > heights for the rest of one's life. I understand the word trauma to mean > 'irrational fear arising from the subconscious'. Death through such causes > may be called the most traumatic experience and hence 'could' give rise to > such severe traumas arising out of the subconscious. > > Again this cannot be considered proof enough for reincarnation. It is an > interesting idea which challenges Psychologists to probe not only into the > childhood experiences of their patients but perhaps into their past lives! > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > The Best Place to Buy Movies - Reel.com > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/reel1 " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 I believe Swamiji said that Western science would corroborate the truths of Advaita Vedanta, but I don't think he suggested it would address myriad subtle universes. Of what consequence could samskaras/karma/reincarnation be? As Dr. Shah said, in the final analysis, nothing exists but Absolute Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. edtipple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 >EDTipple >I believe Swamiji said that Western science would corroborate the >truths of Advaita Vedanta, but I don't think he suggested it would >address myriad subtle universes. Of what consequence could >samskaras/karma/reincarnation be? As Dr. Shah said, in the final >analysis, nothing exists but Absolute Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. >edtipple The reason why issues like reincarnation are interesting is because it opens up a dialogue with the science community. Science has to be 'appeased'. We owe this to the science community. Look, we are using science to communicate spiritual ideas on this internet! I believe it is science that will rekindle interest in spirituality in a major way in the next millennium. This cannot happen if we tell the science community all this is 'illusion' we have nothing further to do with it and are not bothered to talk to them. Advaita may be the crowning glory in spirituality - but it comes as the natural outcome; at the end of the spiritual journey (not at the start). The ideas of Advaita may excite us - may inspire us but the subject is truly beyond words and thoughts. There is very little we can discuss about advaita to the science community. Advaita to them appears like escapism. We define a system which is self consistent but seems to have little to do with this world. Hence we have to develop on the ideas that we have in common. I have great respect for the sincere scientist. He is trying to make sense of this world. He is working away with the tools he has in order to come to terms with 'what is this all about'. To me he is as spiritual as a person sitting down to contemplate 'Brahman'. Science and spirituality will meet - what science calls looking for unity in diversity in the external world we call 'Brahman' -- these are not two different realities only one reality sometimes referred to as external and sometimes referred to as internal. Until we realise 'Brahman' (I do not think anyone on this list has made such a claim) we have to be humble and say to the scientist we are in the same boat, we too are struggling to make sense of this world. Let us share and compare our ideas. jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 True Jay. Even my Pujya Gurudev used to refer einstein as yogi. > > I have great respect for the sincere scientist. He is trying to make sense > of this world. He is working away with the tools he has in order to come to > terms with 'what is this all about'. To me he is as spiritual as a person > sitting down to contemplate 'Brahman'. > > Science and spirituality will meet - what science calls looking for unity in > diversity in the external world we call 'Brahman' -- these are not two > different realities only one reality sometimes referred to as external and > sometimes referred to as internal. > > Until we realise 'Brahman' (I do not think anyone on this list has made such > a claim) we have to be humble and say to the scientist we are in the same > boat, we too are struggling to make sense of this world. Let us share and > compare our ideas. > > jay > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 1999 Report Share Posted July 20, 1999 Dear Jay and friends, I would quote from Swamiji's complete works: volume VIII, page 140-1, (from 'Is Vedanta The Future Religion'). It reads: " But then I (Swami Vivekananda) think of the other side. How long will the world have to wait to reach the truth if it follows this slow, gradual process? How long? And where is the surety that it will ever succeed to any appreciable degree? It has not so far. After all gradual or not gradual, easy or not easy to the weak, is not the dualistic method based on falsehood? Are not all the religious practices often weakening and therefore wrong? They are based on wrong idea, a wrong view of man. Would two wrong make one right? Would the lie become truth? Would darkness become light? " A true scientist does not compromise about his convictions and truth. As scientists of 'spiritual science' let us also not compromise. For centuries this has been deliberately or unintentionally done; the outcome is not very encouraging. Let us face the facts as they are. It does not matter whether we have realized the Brahman or not; let us stick to the convictions about the Truth as exemplified in the life of Sri Ramakrishna. The faculty of reason i. e. science, after one particular stage, actually becomes obstruction for further clarity -it comes in way of discrimination and intuition. dr c s shah -- ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html ==================================== Vivekananda Centre wrote: > The reason why issues like reincarnation are interesting is because it opens > up a dialogue with the science community. Science has to be 'appeased'. We > owe this to the science community. Look, we are using science to communicate > spiritual ideas on this internet! > > I believe it is science that will rekindle interest in spirituality in a > major way in the next millennium. This cannot happen if we tell the science > community all this is 'illusion' we have nothing further to do with it and > are not bothered to talk to them. > > Advaita may be the crowning glory in spirituality - but it comes as the > natural outcome; at the end of the spiritual journey (not at the start). The > ideas of Advaita may excite us - may inspire us but the subject is truly > beyond words and thoughts. There is very little we can discuss about advaita > to the science community. Advaita to them appears like escapism. We define a > system which is self consistent but seems to have little to do with this > world. Hence we have to develop on the ideas that we have in common. > > I have great respect for the sincere scientist. He is trying to make sense > of this world. He is working away with the tools he has in order to come to > terms with 'what is this all about'. To me he is as spiritual as a person > sitting down to contemplate 'Brahman'. > > Science and spirituality will meet - what science calls looking for unity in > diversity in the external world we call 'Brahman' -- these are not two > different realities only one reality sometimes referred to as external and > sometimes referred to as internal. > > Until we realise 'Brahman' (I do not think anyone on this list has made such > a claim) we have to be humble and say to the scientist we are in the same > boat, we too are struggling to make sense of this world. Let us share and > compare our ideas. > > jay > > >EDTipple > >I believe Swamiji said that Western science would corroborate the > >truths of Advaita Vedanta, but I don't think he suggested it would > >address myriad subtle universes. Of what consequence could > >samskaras/karma/reincarnation be? As Dr. Shah said, in the final > >analysis, nothing exists but Absolute Existence-Consciousness-Bliss. > >edtipple > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Dear Jay, It appears from your answer that my comment sounded ponderously superior and uninterested in such questions and discussions as reincarnation. That is far from correct. Dialogue with the scientific community is certainly called for; both science and Vedanta are pointing toward the same unity. I agree with all you have said, both previously and in your answer, and have enjoyed reading the singularly clear exposition and discussion of reincarnation. My only concern is that we might be suggesting that the intricacies of subtle universes (in the reincarnation case, samskaras) can be read or mathematically formulated by science. Perhaps this will one day be possible, but I have not heard a suggestion yet. If you have information I am not aware of, I would certainly be interested to hear it. Most humbly, edtipple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Namaste Jay-ji You've said it very well. Science is involved in finding the truth thru external means while spirituality does it internally. But there is no beginning or end for each, therefore both the internal and the external are one. Thanks for giving your insights. Regards. Om Shanti Kathi > > Vivekananda Centre [sMTP:vivekananda] > Tuesday, July 20, 1999 5:00 PM > Self Knowledge List > Re: [ramakrishna] Reincarnation > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > > Science and spirituality will meet - what science calls looking for unity > in > diversity in the external world we call 'Brahman' -- these are not two > different realities only one reality sometimes referred to as external > and > sometimes referred to as internal. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Further to Ron's request - I had asked for some info on books with serious input on reincarnation. I was furnished with the following - please check it out. SSake <SSake vivekananda <vivekananda 21 July 1999 14:48 Re: Reincarnation >In a message dated 7/20/99 11:02:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >vivekananda writes: > ><< Can you give me references of some books written by authenticated > researchers checking on reincarnation cases. > > We need the details for science community so please give us the best reference > books you can come up with > > thanks > Vivekananda Centre > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda reply >Let me say first I am very honoured that you have requested this from me. I >have very deep respect for Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda. > >There is only one author who fits the criteria you describe, I.e., scientific >research, in the field of reincarnation, who I can recommend, Dr. Ian >Stevenson. All of his books are available through Amazon.com. I will list two >I have: > >Stevenson, M.D., Ian. Children Who Remember Previous Lives: A Question of >Reincarnation. University Press of Virginia, 1987. ISBN 0-8139-1140-0. > >Stevenson, M.D., Ian. Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, University >Press of Virginia, 1974. ISBN 0-8139-0872-8. > >Please note there is one other important work of his dealing specifically >with biology and reincarnation, I.e., the correspondence of birthmarks in the >current incarnation with physical wounds in the previous incarnation, >substantiated by autopsy reports. I have looked it up on Amazon: > >Stevenson, M.D., Ian. Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect, Praeger Pub >Text, May 1997, ISBN: 0-2759-5189-8. > >You can see more information on Dr. Stevenson by going to Carol Bowman's >website. Carol also does research on reincarnation herself, and her book, > " Children's Past Lives " may also be a good one to consider, though she is >more of an advocate and popularizer than a strictly scientific researcher. >Her website is at www.childpastlives.org. I believe a couple of Dr. >Stevenson's birthmark cases are profiled there. > >You should also be aware that Tom Shroder, an editor for the Washington Post, >is currently writing a book about Dr. Stevenson entitled " Old Souls: The >Scientific Search for Proof of Past Lives " . He travelled with Dr. Stevenson on >two expeditions, to the Middle East and India, and as a sceptical and >objective journalist, describes the experience and his impressions. His >overall favourable impression adds credibility to Dr. Stevenson and his work. >Mr. Shroder's e-mail is shrodert. His book is being published >through Simon & Schuster, and the contact person is Victoria Meyer, Publicity >Director, e-mail victoria_meyer. > >I hope this information is of help to you and again, I am honoured to have >helped in any cause connected with Swami Vivekananda. > >Best regards, >Steve Sakellarios ----------------------- Ron let me add -- it has been a real pleasure having dialogue with you on the list. I am surprised that many others did not join in and contribute. The subject is quite interesting and fascinates most people. Can I ask you what field of science do you specialise in? If there is any other topic of common interest please let me know. Our website which delves in relationship between science and spirituality is at http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda -- then click on Science pages. warm regards jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Namaste, Reading the exchanges on reincarnation, I'm drawn back in time to my simple reasoning of childhood. I was certain life had a purpose, but around me I saw people at various " stages " . Many died sad and lonely. Reincarnation was not in my Protestant upbringing, yet I equally and heartfeltly rejected both " instant salvation " and " lost souls. " Whether I had completely though out my solution I cannot say, but when I learn that the majority of people in the world have held the concept of a soul progressing in spiritual evolution through reincarnation I knew this to be the solution I'd come to. I do think reincanation and spiritual evolution go hand-in-hand. The notion that bodies exist 'waiting', as it were, for a reincarnated soul 'to enter' is very strange to me. Where would such waiting lifeless bodies reside? The concept that human birth is in response to a soul's need to continue its spiritual evolution is much more satisfying to me. The soul creates and gives life to a human body out of need. This concept also coincides nicely with the theory of evolution, which postulates evolutionary change in response to necessity. It merely extends this process to the spiritual dimension. Jayanti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 > > I do think reincanation and spiritual evolution go hand-in-hand. The > notion that bodies exist 'waiting', as it were, for a reincarnated soul 'to > enter' is very strange to me. Where would such waiting lifeless bodies > reside? Couldn't get it > > The concept that human birth is in response to a soul's need to continue > its spiritual evolution is much more satisfying to me. The soul creates and > gives life to a human body out of need. This concept also coincides > nicely with the theory of evolution, which postulates evolutionary change > in response to necessity. It merely extends this process to the spiritual > dimension. > > Jayanti > > I too believe so. I don't think soul has the ability to create. Can soul think ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 Dear CS, Hope you don't mind me sharing with all; this has the makings of an interesting discussion! (Also, hope you don't mind me, who am not so learned, sharing exactly what I am thinking!) I have read your article but after a long day at work my neurons seem to be dumping any words over 5 syllables to the bottom of my mental bit-bucket. Sorry! So, let me simply reply to your letter below as best I can. Yes, I do agree with you in theory. As for practice, I also have experienced states that enable me to understand the theory at least in part -- the relativity of any form. On the outside, I am a bhakta. On the inside, sometimes I meditate on form and sometimes not (mostly not nowadays). The thoughts I mentioned about choosing certain traits of birth are indeed, simply part of my mental arsenal so to speak, since I consider the objects appearing in my mind as simply like things in my house - neither true nor false but possibly of some use at certain times. Or, I consider it that way on good days! You write: " All such concepts such as reincarnation, grace, prayers, etc. are meant to serve only one function, and that is, such theories make us realize the inadequacy of them. " Myself, frankly, I would modify this statement somewhat to say: " All such concepts such as reincarnation, grace, prayers, etc. are meant to serve only one function, and that is, to bring us to an understanding of that Absolute Consciousness. " Perhaps a realization of the inadequacy of a theory is a mechanism appropriate to those of an intellectual bent - to push one's intellect over the edge. Perhaps for such, this must happen before the goal is understood. Perhaps others do not need that mechanism and have other mechanisms. We could spend our whole lives pointing out the inadequacies of theories - there are so many of them! To me, the pure discursive (analytical and linear) analysis is just another object in the mind as well, of use at times and to be discarded at others. I make my living with it, but as far as the Absolute, I see the attempts of logic and analysis as trying to capture three dimensions with a line drawing on paper - a trail, however profound, that misses whole sections of reality by its very nature. [ I really don't worry about reincarnation; I let the philosophers argue that one out! But I so enjoy the people and ideas on this list. It is a sort of communion for me...] You wrote: " Hence, I feel, all theories which come under the purview of Maya should be discussed, but with malice towards none and love for all. " Yes, let us discuss! You are a challenging thinker! {Isn't love a Qualified-Non-Dual concept?} Now of course, this mailing list, the people in it, your website and your obviously keen intellect, the interchange of all of us on this list, my ideas, my sitting here and typing a response, forming mental objects in my " house " in response to the mental objects in your " house " , all come under the purview of Maya whether we admit it or not, since all of the above involve form, even if in the mental realm. By the word " form " I mean not pictures in the mind, but also the threads of thought that we create which are no better (or worse) than my coffee pot. And perhaps no more (or less) useful. But why then, do I (or you, or any of us?) respond to each other so? Is it not for the enjoyment of this Maya? Let us be honest! The Mother wants to dance, it is the nature of things, and science itself has noted that entropy is a built-in principle of the universe. We can have a neat and tidy mental house and have everything locked up neatly in one Formless Bundle, but that Maya with all Her Divine Power IS going to start sending out shoots and mess up our house again!! There I go, lapsing into metaphor again. Sorry! Happens when I get excited! Now, I would postulate this: that this very action *is* the formless. And that it is the distinction between the " Absolute " and the " Dualistic " is simply another manifestation of the mind's tendency to create duality. And that this very distinction must be thrown to the dogs eventually. And with that, I throw out all my above argument as just another object to go beyond but at the same time saturated with the Absolute and melting into your argument, similarly saturated. As is my coffeepot. Thank you for this dance! Let's do it again soon! Yours, Non-existent Entity Nama-Rupa Karen :-) (sideways smiley) Dr C S Shah wrote: > Dear Karen, > >From Absolute Monist point of view, there is no such thing as > reincarnation. In fact, nothing exists other than Absolute > Consciousness. > The talk on reincarnation will always end in dualism which is inadequate > to explain anything on the basis of science, as a very important factor > of faith is accepted in dualism. > Qualified monism also suffers from the same defective logic, factor of > faith is added here also. > Hence, I feel, all theories which come under the purview of Maya should > be discussed, but with malice towards none and love for all. > All such concepts such as reincarnation, grace, prayers, etc. are meant > to serve only one function, and that is, such theories make us realize > the inadequacy of them. They make our resolve firmer to lead our life in > making efforts to go beyond them! > That is why it is said that even study of and mastery over Vedas and > Upanishads is apara vidya, lower knowledge. This knowledge cannot lead > us to realization of Truth! > The faculty of reason after one particular stage, actually becomes > obstruction for further clarity -it comes in way of discrimination and > intuition. > Do visit full article on Reincarnation at > < http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/a05.html > > dr c s shah > -- > ==================================== > E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html > http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html > ==================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 Dear Karen, You wrote: <<< Perhaps a realization of the inadequacy of a theory is a mechanism appropriate to those of an intellectual bent - to push one's intellect over the edge. Perhaps for such, this must happen before the goal is understood. Perhaps others do not need that mechanism and have other mechanisms. >>> No, " a realization of the inadequacy of a theory is a mechanism appropriate " to be able to develop the requisite attitude of total surrender!!! You wrote: <<< But why then, do I (or you, or any of us?) respond to each other so? Is it not for the enjoyment of this Maya? Let us be honest! >>> I respond so that the message of advaita Vedanta as lived by Sri Ramakrishna and made broadcast by Swami Vivekananda might spread all around. Who knows, a really primed and yearning soul might benefit from it and attempt to realize the Truth beyond Maya; which I am unable to do at this stage of my development. You wrote: <<< The Mother wants to dance, it is the nature of things, and science itself has noted that entropy is a built-in principle of the universe. >>> Yes, Mother is engaged in Her lovely game of flying kites; and once in a while, she liberates occasional kite as per Her Whims!! It is her Lila! You wrote: <<< Now, I would postulate this: that this very action *is* the formless. And that it is the distinction between the " Absolute " and the " Dualistic " is simply another manifestation of the mind's tendency to create duality. And that this very distinction must be thrown to the dogs eventually. >>> No! You cannot wish anything away so lightly. Only proper and guided spiritual practice - sadhana - alone can help you understand the real infatuating (distracting) nature of mind ; and thereby, means to go beyond it. dr c s shah ---------------------- Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > Dear CS, > Hope you don't mind me sharing with all; this has the makings of > an interesting discussion! (Also, hope you don't mind me, who am > not so learned, sharing exactly what I am thinking!)... -- ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html ==================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2007 Report Share Posted March 8, 2007 Mr.Brown very interesting and intelligent,now i am trying to develop my spirituallity .I try hard to stay the middle course and try to lead a devoted life,Now will i be ever able to get anywhere with my persuits,i dont know what i did in last few births,and what i am going to do next,i did started using Emarald after your suggestion,Date of Birth oct 2nf 1966 at 11:50 PM at Ludhiana,India.Now i am at Las vegas Nevada.Thanks Gobinder chopra. --- Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote: > Namaste!!! > > REBORN? CERTAINLY!!! (UNLESS MUKTI IS ATTAINED) > > NEXT LIFE? 12TH HOUSE > > Best wishes, > Richard > > sacred-objects , Sahib Ji > <ji_sahib wrote: > > > > Dear Ricchard Shaw brown do you believe in reborn > theory? > > ----YES > > > > From which house we can read about previous or > next life? > > ---12th > > > > Thanks > > Richard Shaw Brown <rsbj66 wrote: > Children of the > > Sun: The Misunderstood > > > > Murdered in 1947 during Indo-Pakistan partition > riots and reborn in > > America, Hrisikesh is lead singer of the > Misunderstood, an ambitious > > anti-war rock band from small town California, > who In 1966 set off on a > > mission to England. In swinging sixties London > they forge a > > revolutionary new psychedelic sound, but on the > very brink of > > international success the heart of the band is > ripped out when their > > lead singer is drafted by the US Army. Torn from > stardom and faced with > > war or prison he miraculously escapes from boot > camp and embarks on a > > spiritual journey to mystical India, living for > seven years as a monk > > in a primitive ashram. With the discovery of a > secret ruby mine, and > > magical jewels, he becomes embroiled in further > extraordinary > > adventures, his fugitive life forcing him to > live in the shadows, one > > step ahead of the authorities. Children of the > Sun is the thrilling > > true-life saga of the greatest lost rock band of > the 1960s and one > > young man's quest for spiritual peace, personal > freedom, and survival. > > > > http://www.themisunderstood.com/ > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > TV dinner still cooling? > > Check out " Tonight's Picks " on TV. > > > > > ______________________________\ ____ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Small Business. http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2009 Report Share Posted April 16, 2009 Reincarnation and Past-Life-Regression are not modern concepts. People have believed in reincarnation since ancient times. Since prehistoric times, there have been numerous techniques used to explore past lives. Every religion has an 'inner teaching', and within that inner teaching, reincarnation and its evolutionary implications have been accepted as the universal truth. There is sufficient evidence to show that the Hindus, Ancient Celts, the Egyptians, the Tibetans, and the Hebrew Cabalists etc. used past-life remembrance. Sri Krishna and the Bhagawad Gita: Sri Krishna said in 'The Bhagawad Gita', " As a man, casting off worn-out garments, takes new ones, so the dweller in the body, casting off worn-out bodies, enters into others that are new " . He has also said " The misdeeds of our past lives torment us in the form of illnesses or ailments " . From this we understand how all our ailments have their root cause in past-life actions. This is the fundamental principle on which the entire concept of Past-Life-Regression is based. 'Past-Life-Regression' is based on the universal law of cause and effect, which is also known as the Law of Karma. A person's past actions affect his or her present conditions. The effect could be on physical health, emotional condition, mental state or spiritual well-being. A few examples of root causes are: unfulfilled desires, thoughts, feelings, emotions, vows, promises, decisions, evasions or traumatic experiences. The root causes are invariably in the past. Patanjali Maharishi: The ancient Indian sage Patanjali Maharshi, has done extensive work on Past-Life-Regression. In his yoga sutras Patanjali Maharishi called this process of past-life-regression as 'Prati-Prasav'. It is the process of reabsorbing back to the cause. This means bringing effect back to the cause or the process of involution. When a child is born it is Prasav. Prati-Prasav means you are born again in the memory; you go back to the very birth, the trauma when you were born, and you live it again. If there is something, some trouble, some problem, then we go back to the original source from where it started. Because we can go on trying to solve the problem, but unless we go to the roots it cannot be solved. Effects cannot be solved unless they are forced back to the cause. For example, if there is an unwanted weed and we go on cutting the branches and the leaves in an attempt to remove the weed, we find that more and more branches and leaves take the place of the ones we cut off. To remove the weed once and for all, we have to actually remove the weed from the roots. Buddha: Buddha is said to have recounted thousands of his past-lives, of which around 550 have been narrated in the 'Jataka' Tales. Buddha asked his disciples to explore their own past lives to gain a complete understanding of the cycle of birth and death. According to the teachings of Buddha, one attains 'Nirvana' or Salvation when one becomes free from the cycle of birth and death. Mahavira: Mahavira called 'Remembering past-lives' as 'Jati-Smaran'. Remembering of past lives is an integral part of ancient Jain Practices. Jain teachings call the attaining of freedom from rebirth as 'Kaivalya'. Tibetan wisdom: Early Tibetan history contains a wealth of literature on the subject of reincarnation and afterlife states. One of the most important sources of ancient Tibetan wisdom about reincarnation and the afterlife states is the 'Tibetan Book of The Dead'. This book was read to those who were dying when their souls were about to vacate their bodies. Also read during funeral ceremonies, the wisdom imparted was supposed to prepare the dying person to make the transition from life to the after life state in a smooth manner. It also taught the near and dear of the deceased person that they should not hold back the dying person by mourning, but that they should graciously send them on their journey with positive thoughts and emotions. Compiled in the eighth century A.D., this book is a masterpiece that contains the wisdom gathered over a period spanning many centuries from different Tibetan Masters. A lot of cases of Near Death Experiences are reported even in modern times where people are found to return to life after being pronounced dead. These experiences are very similar to early stages of death as described by the Tibetan sages. As the spirits move toward a realm of light, they slough off emotional attachments to their earlier earthly existence. In the process, they may face spiritual beings who guide them, and who present them with a kind of mirror reflecting their life and actions. Filled at last with peace and contentment, the deceased prepare either to abandon the world altogether or to reenter the cycle of birth and death with higher awareness of the illusory nature of life. Christian Mystics: Many Christian mystics have stated that after death, the soul separates from the body and leaves. There are instances of people with Christian upbringing who had 'near death experiences'. They tell us that their spirits entered a 'realm of light' where they were received by 'beings of light'. They were then shown a complete review (somewhat like a movie except that it took no time) of their all the events of their life and their actions were weighed. This description is very similar to the description given by the Tibetans. Egyptian Civilization: Ancient Egyptians believed in reincarnation. They believed that it took 3000 years to complete all lives that one had to live. All this goes to prove that the ancient Egyptians strongly believed in life after death and reincarnation. Ancient Greeks: Reincarnation was not an unknown concept to the ancient Greeks. Noted Greek philosophers like Pythagoras and Plato believed in reincarnation and they have also explained about it in their teachings. Pythagoras is believed to have remembered and described many of his past lives. Some of the lives that he recounted were as: a Trojan warrior, a prophet, a peasant, a prostitute, and a shopkeeper. Evidence form prehistoric times: Though reincarnation has been studied scientifically only during recent times, the possibility that we live many lives has been accepted on faith since ancient times. If one studies the ancient indigenous cultures of Africa, Asia, North America, South America and Australia, one would find ample evidence that reincarnation was one of their core beliefs. It can be seen that evidence of the belief in reincarnation can be found in people of diverse cultures, from different parts of the world and even people from vastly different time periods (modern, medieval, ancient, prehistoric etc.). Why do we reincarnate? Having come to know that belief in reincarnation has existed from ancient and even prehistoric times, we now come to the important question: Why do we reincarnate? The reasons for reincarnation are: To learn lessons: Consider the whole earth as one training school. We cannot complete our training unless we study and graduate from one level, move on to the next level and continue this process till we attain mastery. This is the fundamental and most important reason for reincarnation. Most of the other reasons are offshoots of this reason. Take the example of a school. If we fail in one grade, we have to repeat the grade till we pass it. So also with our lives on earth. If we do not learn our lessons properly, we keep returning till we learn all the lessons. Learning the lessons properly is the key to our spiritual growth and eventual freedom from the cycle of birth and death. Our spiritual growth depends on how well we learn our lessons. To have fun: We incarnate to have fun. We incarnate to experience the beauty of creation, and that is fun. We incarnate to express our creativity, and that too is fun. There is no limit to the beauty of creation. Even our creative abilities are limitless. There are infinite ways of experiencing the beauty of creation. There are also infinite ways of expressing our creativity. Therefore, the experiences possible are far too many to go through in one incarnation and hence the longing for the soul to reincarnate again and again. Though the experiences of the soul are equally valid whether we are in incarnation or not, the joy of creation can be experienced only when we are on this physical plane of existence. To teach: After the soul has learnt all the lessons required to be learnt, it does not have to reincarnate. However, such a soul may choose to reincarnate to help in the evolution of the other souls who are still caught in the cycle of birth and death. The main work done by such souls when they reincarnate is teaching. They work for creating a shift in the consciousness of the people on earth. Law of Karma " .....Believing as I do in the theory of rebirth, I live in the hope that if not in this birth, in some other birth I shall be able to hug all humanity in friendly embrace. " -Mohandas K. Gandhi We have heard a lot about 'Karma'. 'Karma' is a Sanskrit word which means 'action'. Karma is the process of cause and effect, which is associated with our thoughts, emotions and behaviors. Jesus said, " As you sow, so shall you reap " . This single statement contains the essence of what Karma is. The Dynamics of Karma: We are all spiritual beings having a human experience and the dynamics of Karma help us to keep learning and progressing through the actions done by us in each lifetime. Therefore, Karma is neither good nor bad. Karma operates on universal laws, which create total justice. Karma is very impersonal and it applies to everyone without exception at all times. Karma makes us realize that we are all one irrespective of our nationality, religion, race, creed, caste, sex etc. and thereby teaches us oneness. Karma teaches us take self-responsibility as it makes us feel responsible for our actions in every situation. Karma makes us understand the cause and effect of our actions. Understanding Karma is a major step in our Spiritual Evolution. Different types of Karma: SANCHITA KARMA: This is the sum total of the Karma accumulated from all the lifetimes. PRARABDHA KARMA: This is the Karma that is ripened. The effects of this type of Karma will be felt in this lifetime and in current situations. AGAMI KARMA or KRIYAMANA KARMA: This is the recently added Karma resulting from present actions. This kind of Karma, which is added recently, affects the future. Reincarnation and Karma: Most of us believe that our individual characters are formed from birth in this present life. We therefore assume that our psychological makeup is molded from parental and social conditioning as well as our genetic inheritance. Factors like complexes, patterning, personal myths, scripts and family of origin etc. are believed to influence our characters. These have been used to explain how our psyche has been affected by our childhood experiences and/or our genetic inheritance. Modern psychology is predominantly based on this model. What this model fails to provide suitable explanations for are the instances wherein many people are found to possess special gifts and character traits that cannot be due to their family history or genetic inheritance. It also cannot explain why two people with identical family history and genetic inheritance often have vastly varying and sometimes diametrically opposite character traits and behavior. This model is therefore incomplete in its understanding of the human psyche. This is the reason why it has had an insignificant success rate when it comes to treating most psychological disorders and ailments. Any search for a fully integrated model, which can provide the answers to all the questions that remain unanswered using the present model, leads us to the study of reincarnation. Reincarnation is the missing link, which helps us to complete our understanding. Once we realize that we are eternal beings who have lived many lifetimes before this one, we can easily understand that our psyche represents the sum total of all experiences of all our lifetimes including the present one. This explains how our character, situations and conditions in the present life have their roots in our past lives. Past life activities, past life habits, past life patterns, traumatic experiences in the past lives, emotionally charged events from past lives and many more past life experiences all together make up our present self and character structure. The main reason for reincarnating is to learn lessons. Reincarnation and Karma are thus interrelated. However, this does not apply to those who choose to reincarnate to teach others and help them to grow spiritually. Before we reincarnate, we choose the circumstances, parents, social conditions and situations into which we are born so as to give us the ideal conditions for learning the lessons that we have set out to learn in this lifetime. Hence current family genetics and psychological environments are not mainly responsible for our psychological makeup. They are only the vehicles for the expression of the soul and serve to bring about the interplay of factors required for the natural unfolding of the karmic drama. Karma is not Punishment: It is very important for us to understand that Karma is not a system of punishment put in place by a higher authority. The common misconception is that the laws of Karma operate in such a manner as to punish us for our so-called 'wrong doings'. The punishment is always self-inflicted from the karmic point of view. Strong Identification with patterns of guilt leads to a need to punish oneself, and therefore the punishment is invariably self-inflicted punishment. Source: http://www.liferesearchacademy.com/regression.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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