Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 DEAR FRIENDS, The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil". Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately.While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. G.Balasubramanian Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 namo narayana Some questions on Karma Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on. Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on. All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start? How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal? Is there any scriptural reference on the first "karma" of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa? Thanks, Sincerely, Kamlesh --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: G Balasubramanian <gbsub SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMAUSBrahmins , , Aryakrishti-Vedic-Dharma , "Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva" <BhagavataSeva >Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM DEAR FRIENDS, The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil". Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. G.Balasubramanian Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Om Namo Narayanaya,Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding:- At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyership or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach.As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc.G.Balasubramanian--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium wrote:Veryytterium <veryytteriumRe: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM namo narayana Some questions on Karma Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on. Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on. All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start? How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal? Is there any scriptural reference on the first "karma" of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa? Thanks, Sincerely, Kamlesh --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote: G Balasubramanian <gbsub >[om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMAUSBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, "Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva" <BhagavataSeva>Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM DEAR FRIENDS, The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil". Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. G.Balasubramanian Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Namaste, Your description below is not correct. Bhagavad Gita clearly says in chapter 13 that Prakruti and Purusha are anaadi or beginningless. Since prakruti is beginningless, manas/buddhi/ahamkara are also beginningless. Since manas/buddhi/ahamkara are beginningless, avidya is beginningless. In simple words it is a cycle - it never began. regards, Shailendra , G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: > > Om Namo Narayanaya, > Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding:- > > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyership or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach. > As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc. > G.Balasubramanian > > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium wrote: > > Veryytterium <veryytterium > Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM > > > > > > > > > > > namo narayana > > Some questions on Karma > > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on. > Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on. > > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start? > How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal? > > Is there any scriptural reference on the first " karma " of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa? > > Thanks, > Sincerely, > Kamlesh > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote: > > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub > > [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, " Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva " <BhagavataSeva> > Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM > > DEAR FRIENDS, > > > > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word " kru " which means " to do " . The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. > > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says, " If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil " . > Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. > The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > G.Balasubramanian > > > Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 namo narayana Respected Sirs, Thank you for your replies on the karma cycle. I too have read and been told, that the jeevatmas are eternal with no beginning and end as in the case of paramataman In this case my questions are 1. If the jeetvatmas and prakurthi were never "created" by paramatman at any given time then how does HE have the power to grant liberation/moksham to the jeevatmas. So what is the point of any devotion to HIM? 2. On what basis were the jeevatmans alloted their individual tendency to do certain types of "karmas", and from wherein this vast differences of karmas and its consequences arise from? 3. Why are we reaping these horrific consquences of our past karmas when we even donot know what we did before? In material existence a criminal is punished only after he has been told about his crime, then why is in the spiritual domain we are punished without having any clear knowledge of our past karmas? I am sorry about asking so many questions but I was unable to find any scriptural resources which would answer them. I hope that I will get these answers in Vivekchoodamani. Sincerely, Kamlesh --- On Fri, 6/19/09, bhatnagar_shailendra <bhatnagar_shailendra wrote: bhatnagar_shailendra <bhatnagar_shailendra Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 9:46 AM Namaste,Your description below is not correct. Bhagavad Gita clearly says in chapter 13 that Prakruti and Purusha are anaadi or beginningless. Since prakruti is beginningless, manas/buddhi/ ahamkara are also beginningless. Since manas/buddhi/ ahamkara are beginningless, avidya is beginningless. In simple words it is a cycle - it never began.regards,Shailendraom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote:>> Om Namo Narayanaya,> Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding: -> > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyershi p or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach.> As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc.> G.Balasubramanian> > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...> wrote:> > Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...>> Re: [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA> om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com> Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > namo narayana> > Some questions on Karma> > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on.> Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on.> > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start?> How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal?> > Is there any scriptural reference on the first "karma" of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa?> > Thanks,> Sincerely,> Kamlesh> > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote:> > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub >> [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA> USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, "Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva" <BhagavataSeva>> Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM> > > > > > > > > DEAR FRIENDS,> > > > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma.> > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil".> Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births.> The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > G.Balasubramanian> > > Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Dear Shri Kamlesh,I appreciate your doubts and enthusiasm in unravelling the mystery of Karma.Even if one is born as jivatma, it is possible to merge with the Supreme by the process of self-realization and thereby escape from the cycle of births and deaths(punarapi jananam punarapi maranam or samsarachakram). On attaining self-realization, all the unexhausted karmas(sanchitakarmas) are wiped away. Hence there is no question of any further birth for the jiva. So say all the Upanishads, Bhagawad gita , Srimad Bhagavatam etc. etc. Once the jivatma has merged with Paramatma, the identity of a jivatma is lost. It may not, therefore,strictly be correct to say that jivatma is eternal.If we consider that Paramatma and Jivatma are one and the same, your statement that jivatma and paramatma are eternal is correct.Question number 1. Let shri Shailendra clarify your query as it pertains to creation and prakruti brought up by him in his mail.Question number 2Let us assume that a jivatma has frittered away its life in sensula pleasures, attachments, negative and low tendencies and that another jivatma deicated its life for noble and selfless activities and did not entertain attachment to material objects etc. Can you say that the karma of these jivas will be identical? Not at all. Differences in tendencies are bound to be there so long as we consider ourselves as a limited individual(jiva). We create vasanas when we perform actions. These vasanas (tendencies) are carried forward from one birth to another. Karmas are not allotted by anybody. There are created by jivas by themselves.Question no.3 Action and reaction is equal and opposite, saysNewton`s third law of motion. The theory of Karma has also a similar law. None can escape the results(reactions) of the actions he or she performs. All karmas give results. But the timing of the result of any particular karma is not known to anybody, other than the karmaphaladhata, that is God. Some karmas (prarabda karmas) give result in the present birth,while others mature in different births. We can not compare mundane laws with Divine laws and demand parity between them. True, we do not know what sins we committed in previous birth(s). But we know we are reaping the fruits(consequences) in this birth. That is the way humans look at karma theory.G.Balasubramanian --- On Fri, 6/19/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium wrote:Veryytterium <veryytteriumRe: Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 9:59 PM namo narayana Respected Sirs, Thank you for your replies on the karma cycle. I too have read and been told, that the jeevatmas are eternal with no beginning and end as in the case of paramataman In this case my questions are 1. If the jeetvatmas and prakurthi were never "created" by paramatman at any given time then how does HE have the power to grant liberation/moksham to the jeevatmas. So what is the point of any devotion to HIM? 2. On what basis were the jeevatmans alloted their individual tendency to do certain types of "karmas", and from wherein this vast differences of karmas and its consequences arise from? 3. Why are we reaping these horrific consquences of our past karmas when we even donot know what we did before? In material existence a criminal is punished only after he has been told about his crime, then why is in the spiritual domain we are punished without having any clear knowledge of our past karmas? I am sorry about asking so many questions but I was unable to find any scriptural resources which would answer them. I hope that I will get these answers in Vivekchoodamani. Sincerely, Kamlesh --- On Fri, 6/19/09, bhatnagar_shailendr a <bhatnagar_shailendr a wrote: bhatnagar_shailendr a <bhatnagar_shailendr a[om_namah_shivaya_ group] Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMAom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.comFriday, June 19, 2009, 9:46 AM Namaste,Your description below is not correct. Bhagavad Gita clearly says in chapter 13 that Prakruti and Purusha are anaadi or beginningless. Since prakruti is beginningless, manas/buddhi/ ahamkara are also beginningless. Since manas/buddhi/ ahamkara are beginningless, avidya is beginningless. In simple words it is a cycle - it never began.regards,Shailendraom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote:>> Om Namo Narayanaya,> Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding: -> > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyershi p or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach.> As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc.> G.Balasubramanian> > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...> wrote:> > Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...>> Re: [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA> om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com> Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > namo narayana> > Some questions on Karma> > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on.> Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on.> > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start?> How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal?> > Is there any scriptural reference on the first "karma" of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa?> > Thanks,> Sincerely,> Kamlesh> > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote:> > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub >> [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA> USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, "Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva" <BhagavataSeva>> Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM> > > > > > > > > DEAR FRIENDS,> > > > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma.> > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil".> Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births.> The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > G.Balasubramanian> > > Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Dear Subramanian Ji Aum Namah Shivaaya I think you may be right in your interpretation of this Karm theory, that in the beginning every soul had a clean slate. But as we know that till soul was with Brahm, it was OK and it knew itself, but as soon it comes to this world, it is covered with Maayaa and with the effect of Maayaa it does not recognize itself (that is why people always insist - first know yourself), but till the veil of Maayaa is not removed a soul cannot know itself - and the problem is that till the Jeev is in this world it is extremely difficult to remove the veil of Maayaa. Only rare people can do it. So, as soon as a Jeev comes in this world, its " mine and thine " is started. I think it is most natural because otherwise how is he going to differentiate among all people and that is why it assigns the names of every individual (Now you can see the problem - wherever two names are same they create problem of who did it?) So in my view as soo as the soul came to this world it could not escape the attachment and started " I have done this, and you have done this " . Now the problem is - when the soul came with a clean slate did it really have Free Will to do anything? And if yes then why did it not do all good work? And if not then where did that Destiny come from? Because Destiny is like the balance sheet of one's old Karm done in all previous lives. Hope you are following what I want to say. With regards Sushma , G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: > > Om Namo Narayanaya, > Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding:- > > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyership or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach. > As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc. > G.Balasubramanian > > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium wrote: > > Veryytterium <veryytterium > Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM > > namo narayana > > Some questions on Karma > > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on. > Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on. > > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start? > How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal? > > Is there any scriptural reference on the first " karma " of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa? > > Thanks, > Sincerely, > Kamlesh > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote: > > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub > > [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, " Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva " <BhagavataSeva> > Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM > > DEAR FRIENDS, > > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word " kru " which means " to do " . The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. > > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says, " If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil " . > Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. > The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > G.Balasubramanian > > > Messenger with Voice. 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Guest guest Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Dear Shailendra Ji Aum Namah Shivaaya This we have been hearing all the time, and reading everywhere. Even if we do notargue about this and assume that Purush and Prakriti were always there, but then, I think, there must be at some point of time when the first time this creation was created - we can call it " clean slate " as Subramanian Ji called it. We can start from there. This is true that cycle has no beginning, but still when we draw a circle we start it from some point, of course after it has started it goes on and on. But there was a point from where it got started. With regards Sushma , " bhatnagar_shailendra " <bhatnagar_shailendra wrote: > > Namaste, > Your description below is not correct. Bhagavad Gita clearly says in chapter 13 that Prakruti and Purusha are anaadi or beginningless. Since prakruti is beginningless, manas/buddhi/ahamkara are also beginningless. Since manas/buddhi/ahamkara are beginningless, avidya is beginningless. In simple words it is a cycle - it never began. > > regards, > Shailendra > > , G Balasubramanian <gbsub@> wrote: > > > > Om Namo Narayanaya, > > Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding:- > > > > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyership or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach. > > As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc. > > G.Balasubramanian > > > > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium@> wrote: > > > > Veryytterium <veryytterium@> > > Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > > > Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM > > > > namo narayana > > > > Some questions on Karma > > > > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on. > > Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on. > > > > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start? > > How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal? > > > > Is there any scriptural reference on the first " karma " of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa? > > > > Thanks, > > Sincerely, > > Kamlesh > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote: > > > > > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub > > > [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, " Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva " <BhagavataSeva> > > Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM > > > > DEAR FRIENDS, > > > > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word " kru " which means " to do " . The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. > > > > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says, " If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil " . > > Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. > > The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > > > > G.Balasubramanian > > > > > > Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Namaste Kamlesh ji, See embedded responses [sB] , Veryytterium <veryytterium wrote: > > namo narayana > > Respected Sirs, > > Thank you for your replies on the karma cycle. > > I too have read and been told, that the jeevatmas are eternal with no beginning and end as in the case of paramataman [sB] Jeeva is beginningless but not endless. " yad gatva na nivartante tad dhamam paramam mama " says Geeta. > > In this case my questions are > > 1. If the jeetvatmas and prakurthi were never " created " by paramatman at any given time then how does HE have the power to grant liberation/moksham to the jeevatmas. So what is the point of any devotion to HIM? [sB] Paramatman is not subject to laws of prakruti. Liberation is not granted based on some like or dislike or fancy of Paramatman. Knowledge of the true self or atman is moksha. Devotion is optional - a person seeking liberation from samsara would need shraddha, bhakti, yoga, dhyana, study etc. > > 2. On what basis were the jeevatmans alloted their individual tendency to do certain types of " karmas " , and from wherein this vast differences of karmas and its consequences arise from? [sB] Again this allotment would mean a beginning - there is no beginning. > > 3. Why are we reaping these horrific consquences of our past karmas when we even donot know what we did before? In material existence a criminal is punished only after he has been told about his crime, then why is in the spiritual domain we are punished without having any clear knowledge of our past karmas? [sB] Why are we reaping ? We reap whatever we sow. I think it is best for us that we forget our previous births otherwise mind will keep us agitated with past and keep going in the past. > > I am sorry about asking so many questions but I was unable to find any scriptural resources which would answer them. > I hope that I will get these answers in Vivekchoodamani. > > Sincerely, > Kamlesh > > > > --- On Fri, 6/19/09, bhatnagar_shailendra <bhatnagar_shailendra wrote: > > > bhatnagar_shailendra <bhatnagar_shailendra > Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > Friday, June 19, 2009, 9:46 AM > > Namaste, > Your description below is not correct. Bhagavad Gita clearly says in chapter 13 that Prakruti and Purusha are anaadi or beginningless. Since prakruti is beginningless, manas/buddhi/ ahamkara are also beginningless. Since manas/buddhi/ ahamkara are beginningless, avidya is beginningless. In simple words it is a cycle - it never began. > > regards, > Shailendra > > om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, G Balasubramanian <gbsub@> wrote: > > > > Om Namo Narayanaya, > > Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding: - > > > > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyershi p or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach. > > As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc. > > G.Balasubramanian > > > > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...> wrote: > > > > Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...> > > Re: [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com > > Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > namo narayana > > > > Some questions on Karma > > > > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on. > > Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on. > > > > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start? > > How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal? > > > > Is there any scriptural reference on the first " karma " of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa? > > > > Thanks, > > Sincerely, > > Kamlesh > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote: > > > > > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub > > > [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA > > USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, " Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva " <BhagavataSeva> > > Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DEAR FRIENDS, > > > > > > > > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word " kru " which means " to do " . The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. > > > > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says, " If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil " . > > Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. > > The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > > > > G.Balasubramanian > > > > > > Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Dear Sushmaji, Your understanding could be correct. I would only like to stae as follows:- Every soul is born free. But it thinks it is bound and limited by its Upadhis(as,djuncts). By Upadhi we mean things such as the body, Caste,Status,Education, Position in life, Clour of skin, sex, etc. etc. which are ephemeral and unreal. On account of identification of the unreal with the real and superimposition of the unreal on the real, bad deeds are performed. A correct understanding of one`s self leads to good deeds. Bad deeds also arise on account of false identifications and the play of ego and attachments. G.Balasubramanian -- On Sat, 6/20/09, bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee wrote: bhagvatjee <bhagvatjee Re: SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMAom_namah_shiveaaya_group Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 4:29 PM,, Dear Subramanian JiAum Namah ShivaayaI think you may be right in your interpretation of this Karm theory, that in the beginning every soul had a clean slate. But as we know that till soul was with Brahm, it was OK and it knew itself, but as soon it comes to this world, it is covered with Maayaa and with the effect of Maayaa it does not recognize itself (that is why people always insist - first know yourself), but till the veil of Maayaa is not removed a soul cannot know itself - and the problem is that till the Jeev is in this world it is extremely difficult to remove the veil of Maayaa. Only rare people can do it.So, as soon as a Jeev comes in this world, its "mine and thine" is started. I think it is most natural because otherwise how is he going to differentiate among all people and that is why it assigns the names of every individual (Now you can see the problem - wherever two names are same they create problem of who did it?) So in my view as soo as the soul came to this world it could not escape the attachment and started "I have done this, and you have done this". Now the problem is - when the soul came with a clean slate did it really have Free Will to do anything? And if yes then why did it not do all good work? And if not then where did that Destiny come from? Because Destiny is like the balance sheet of one's old Karm done in all previous lives.Hope you are following what I want to say.With regardsSushmaom_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote:>> Om Namo Narayanaya,> Let me attempt a clarification to the best of my understanding: -> > At the beginning of creation, when a jiva was created for the first time, no karma is inherited or brought forward. It starts with a clean slate. Before birth, all jivas are merged in the Avyakta, the Supreme. Hence all are at par. Karma starts only when actions are done with a sense of doership,enjoyershi p or knowership. When action is done in a spirit of detachment or with no ego, karma does not attach.> As regards inequalities in birth, these arise because of individual karmas. The theory of karma is to be understood by reading commentaries on certain works like Vivekachoodamani etc.> G.Balasubramanian> > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...> wrote:> > Veryytterium <veryytterium@ ...>> Re: [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA> om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com> Thursday, June 18, 2009, 6:01 PM> > namo narayana> > Some questions on Karma> > Since this creation has a wide variety of living beings (Jeevatmas) in very different situations such as humans, animals, birds, insects, bacteria and so on.> Even in the human birth we see such a great disparity such as poor, rich, diseased, healthy, good, evil-hearted and so on.> > All these births are attributed to that jeevatma's previous karmas, I would like to know when did the first karma of a jeevatma start?> How were the jeevatmas before they performed THEIR FIRST KARMA, were they all equal?> > Is there any scriptural reference on the first "karma" of the jeevatmas, which caused their downfall in the ocean of samsaraa?> > Thanks,> Sincerely,> Kamlesh> > > > > --- On Wed, 6/17/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub > wrote:> > > G Balasubramanian <gbsub >> [om_namah_shivaya_ group] SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMA> USBrahmins@gro ups.com, om_namah_shivaya_ group@ s.com, Aryakrishti- Vedic-Dharma, "Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva" <BhagavataSeva>> Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 4:41 PM> > DEAR FRIENDS,> > The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma.> > The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil".> Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births.> The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. > > > G.Balasubramanian> > > Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 HariOm This yoni of manushya is only kam yoni.A man cannot live without karam we do many karam knowingly & some unknowingly such as sitting & moving legs.the karam is governed by Gunas -satvik,rajsik & tamsik.karak can give the phal immediately or in other janams. when a karam gets ripe it cannot be wiped of it can only be wiped of in case it is not riped,with your tap,sadhna,dhyan.our Guruji says that if it is riped than God also canot wiped it & one has to taste the phal only.It is advisable to burn bad karams only when they are not riped by TAP,DHYAN,Sadhana,Jap. mggarga--- On Thu, 6/18/09, G Balasubramanian <gbsub wrote: G Balasubramanian <gbsub SOME THOUGHTS ON KARMAUSBrahmins , , Aryakrishti-Vedic-Dharma , "Bhagavataseva Bagavataseva" <BhagavataSeva >Thursday, June 18, 2009, 2:11 AM DEAR FRIENDS, The Sanskrit word Karma has been derived from the root word "kru" which means "to do". The plain meaning of the word Karma is action or deed. Karma is also being used by some to indicate Destiny. Karmaphala means effect. . Karma comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. We can say that Karma is a sum total of what a jiva has done, is currently doing and will do and their resultant reactions. Present and future experiences are the effect of all past deeds. This makes one responsible for one`s one life. Karma extends through not only one`s present life but also through past and future lifes, according to the religions which talk of rebirth. All religions which were either native in Bharath viz., Hinduism or were conceived in India,viz., Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism contain law of Karma. The concept of Karma is an integral part of Hinduism. Action and reaction govern all life. Karma is not fate, as man acts with free will creating his own destiny.Swami says,"If you sow Goodness, you will reap Goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil". Conquest of Karma lies in intelligent and detached action and dispassionate reaction. Not all Karmas rebound immediately. While some karmas show their reaction in this very birth itself, others accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other future births. The Law of Karma is considered to be a Spiritually oriented law that can not be abrogated by any person but can be mitigated by God, the Karmaphaladhata. Karma is not punishment or retribution. To my humble mind, it is an extended expression of natural acts. The Bhagawad Gita sings eloquently on action and reaction and also about Nishkamya Karma or Selfless action ie., action without expecting any fruit in return. G.Balasubramanian Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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