Guest guest Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 We are happy to announce the next issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (EJVS 15-1, May 2008, 1-): Rigvedisch Pur by Rainer Stuhrmann It is preceded by an English Summary (see below). The paper is important as it discusses, philologically, the two kinds of fortifications that the Rgvedic Puru and Bharata besieged: first, stone fortresses in the mountains of the Northwest and then brick fortifications in the Indus plains. Incidentally, this agrees with recent discoveries in northwestern Pakistan (Bannu, NWFP, etc.). Please note the new location (2007 sqq.) of the journal, at the Laurasian site (that is dedicated to comparative mythology): <http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com> Extract from the Summary: Mortimer Wheeler, point[ed] at the Aryans immigrating into India and conquering " walled cities (púr). " At best, he modified his well-known dictum " Indra stands accused " to that a " coup de grâce... " Subsequently, Wilhelm Rau endeavored to show... that the Vedic texts ... exclude the identification of the Vedic purs with the cities of the Indus civilization.... [Discussion of layout and nature of purs]... In the present article, ... I reach the conclusion that the Indo- Aryans encountered a extensive front of determinedly resisting purs.... Two originally allied tribes excelled in the conquest of the purs: the Puru and the Bharata. Divodasa conquered the ...[many] purs of Sambara in the mountains west of the Indus. His son Sudas became the famous King of the Bharata ... the victor in the " Ten Kings' Battle " on the Ravi. He probably was contemporaneous with Purukutsa, who destroyed the seven " old " purs east of the Indus. .... the conquest of most purs mentioned in the RV took place within two generations. Kutsa and DivodAsa fought with the purs in the mountain regions, his son Purukutsa, however, against those in the plains east of the Indus, while Sudas had to challenge other Vedic tribes that already were established in the Panjab... .... To my mind, this scenario is not excluded even for the end of the mature Harappan phase and the beginning of the late Harappan phase around 1900 BCE. Michael Witzel > Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University, > 1 Bow Street , 3rd floor, Cambridge MA 02138 > 1-617-495 3295 Fax: 496 8571 > direct line: 496 2990 > <http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm> > <Indo-Eurasian_research/> > <compmyth> > <http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Dear Michael, in RV 1.164.46 Dirghatamas tells us that when the vipraa who composed the & nbsp; hymns of the RV talk about many gods they are really talking about the one reality or God. What Dirghatamas is telling us is that the composers of the hymns are purposely using allegory to obscure what they are really talking about. If this is correct and all the gods mentioned in the hymns are allegories for the one God or reality then the RV as a whole has to be seen as largely allegorical. If this is the case we cannot be sure that the forts (pur) referred to in the hymns are not also being used as allegory along with the gods. It is interesting to speculate on the meaning of these verses referring to forts, but because of the allegorical nature of the RV hymns one should be wary of any historical conclusions based on them. Unfortunately, although I don't speak German, Sturhmann's article downloaded onto my computer as unintelligible letters and symbols. This means that I cannot even see what particular verses he is referring to. But, despite my lack of familiarity with his article, because of the largely allegorical nature of the RV I am sceptical about any conclusion relating to the migration of ancient people that is based on references to forts in the RV. All the best, Bruce Duffy & nbsp; - --- On Thu, 5/29/08, Michael Witzel & lt;witzel & gt; wrote: We are happy to announce the next issue of the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies (EJVS 15-1, May 2008, 1-): Rigvedisch Pur by Rainer Stuhrmann It is preceded by an English Summary (see below). The paper is important as it discusses, philologically, the two kinds of fortifications that the Rgvedic Puru and Bharata besieged: first, stone fortresses in the mountains of the Northwest and then brick fortifications in the Indus plains. Incidentally, this agrees with recent discoveries in northwestern Pakistan (Bannu, NWFP, etc.). Please note the new location (2007 sqq.) of the journal, at the Laurasian site (that is dedicated to comparative mythology): & lt;http://www.ejvs. laurasianacademy .com & gt; Extract from the Summary: Mortimer Wheeler, point[ed] at the Aryans immigrating into India and conquering " walled cities (púr). " At best, he modified his well-known dictum " Indra stands accused " to that a " coup de grâce... " Subsequently, Wilhelm Rau endeavored to show... that the Vedic texts ... exclude the identification of the Vedic purs with the cities of the Indus civilization. ... [Discussion of layout and nature of purs]... In the present article, ... I reach the conclusion that the Indo- Aryans encountered a extensive front of determinedly resisting purs.... Two originally allied tribes excelled in the conquest of the purs: the Puru and the Bharata. Divodasa conquered the ...[many] purs of Sambara in the mountains west of the Indus. His son Sudas became the famous King of the Bharata ... the victor in the " Ten Kings' Battle " on the Ravi. He probably was contemporaneous with Purukutsa, who destroyed the seven " old " purs east of the Indus. ..... the conquest of most purs mentioned in the RV took place within two generations. Kutsa and DivodAsa fought with the purs in the mountain regions, his son Purukutsa, however, against those in the plains east of the Indus, while Sudas had to challenge other Vedic tribes that already were established in the Panjab... ..... To my mind, this scenario is not excluded even for the end of the mature Harappan phase and the beginning of the late Harappan phase around 1900 BCE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2008 Report Share Posted June 9, 2008 ---------- Forwarded message ----------Bruce Duffy <bruceduffy72Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 10:23 AM Re: Fw: [Y-Indology] new issue: Vedic Studies 15-1: Vedic purindology Dear Michael, in RV 1.164.46 Dirghatamas tells us that when the vipraa who composed the & nbsp; hymns of the RV talk about many gods they are really talking about the one reality or God. What Dirghatamas is telling us is that the composers of the hymns are purposely using allegory to obscure what they are really talking about. If this is correct and all the gods mentioned in the hymns are allegories for the one God or reality then the RV as a whole has to be seen as largely allegorical. If this is the case we cannot be sure that the forts (pur) referred to in the hymns are not also being used as allegory along with the gods. It is interesting to speculate on the meaning of these verses referring to forts, but because of the allegorical nature of the RV hymns one should be wary of any historical conclusions based on them. Unfortunately, although I don't speak German, Sturhmann's article downloaded onto my computer as unintelligible letters and symbols. This means that I cannot even see what particular verses he is referring to. But, despite my lack of familiarity with his article, because of the largely allegorical nature of the RV I am sceptical about any conclusion relating to the migration of ancient people that is based on references to forts in the RV. All the best, Bruce Duffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 It is well known fact that Rv was composed over along period of time by a variety of independent authors. There is thus no reason to expect self-consistency from Rv. What Dirgghatamas said is his view. It cannot apply to the whole of Rv. Rajesh Kochhar INDOLOGY , Bruce Duffy <bruceduffy72 wrote: > > Dear Michael, in RV 1.164.46 Dirghatamas tells us that when the vipraa who composed the & nbsp; hymns of the RV talk about many gods they are really talking about the one reality or God. What Dirghatamas is telling us is that the composers of the hymns are purposely using allegory to obscure what they are really talking about. If this is correct and all the gods mentioned in the hymns are allegories for the one God or reality then the RV as a whole has to be seen as largely allegorical. If this is the case we cannot be sure that the forts (pur) referred to in the hymns are not also being used as allegory along with the gods. It is interesting to speculate > on the meaning of these verses referring to forts, but because of the allegorical nature of the RV hymns one should be wary of any historical conclusions based on them. > > Unfortunately, although I don't speak German, Sturhmann's article downloaded onto my computer as unintelligible letters and symbols. This means that I cannot even see what particular verses he is referring to. But, despite my lack of familiarity with his article, because of the largely allegorical nature of the RV I am sceptical about any conclusion relating to the migration of ancient people that is based on references to forts in the RV. > > All the best, Bruce Duffy & nbsp; > > > > - > > > > --- On Thu, 5/29/08, Michael Witzel witzel wrote: > > > > > > We are happy to announce the next issue of the Electronic Journal of > > Vedic Studies > > (EJVS 15-1, May 2008, 1-): > > > > Rigvedisch Pur > > > > by > > > > Rainer Stuhrmann > > > > It is preceded by an English Summary (see below). > > > > The paper is important as it discusses, philologically, the two kinds > > of fortifications that the Rgvedic Puru and Bharata besieged: first, > > stone fortresses in the mountains of the Northwest and then brick > > fortifications in the Indus plains. Incidentally, this agrees with > > recent discoveries in northwestern Pakistan (Bannu, NWFP, etc.). > > > > > > Please note the new location (2007 sqq.) of the journal, at the > > Laurasian site > > (that is dedicated to comparative mythology): > > > > & lt;http://www.ejvs. laurasianacademy .com & gt; > > > > Extract from the Summary: > > > > Mortimer Wheeler, point[ed] at the Aryans immigrating into India and > > conquering " walled cities (púr). " At best, he modified his well- known > > dictum " Indra stands accused " to that a " coup de grâce... > > " Subsequently, Wilhelm Rau endeavored to show... that the Vedic > > texts ... exclude the identification of the Vedic purs with the > > cities of the Indus civilization. ... [Discussion of layout and > > nature of purs]... > > In the present article, ... I reach the conclusion that the Indo- > > Aryans encountered a extensive front of determinedly resisting purs.... > > > > Two originally allied tribes excelled in the conquest of the purs: > > the Puru and the Bharata. Divodasa conquered the ...[many] purs of > > Sambara in the mountains west of the Indus. His son Sudas became the > > famous King of the Bharata ... the victor in the " Ten Kings' Battle " > > on the Ravi. He probably was contemporaneous with Purukutsa, who > > destroyed the seven " old " purs east of the Indus. > > > > .... the conquest of most purs mentioned in the RV took place within > > two generations. Kutsa and DivodAsa fought with the purs in the > > mountain regions, his son Purukutsa, however, against those in the > > plains east of the Indus, while Sudas had to challenge other Vedic > > tribes that already were established in the Panjab... > > > > .... To my mind, this scenario is not excluded even for the end of the > > mature Harappan phase and the beginning of the late Harappan phase > > around 1900 BCE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Dear Rajesh, I am sorry I did not get back to you earlier but I missed your email in my Inbox. Rajesh, my view is that verse 46 (RV 1.164.46) is one of the few verses in the Rigveda (RV), possibly the only verse, that makes a direct statement about what the Rigveda is really about. Neither you or I can say for certain whether what Dirghatamas says in verse 46 applies to all the Rishis or not, but one has to presume that as one of the composers of the hymns he would have known and communicated with other composers of the hymns and would have been familiar with the Rigvedic religious tradition and its philosophy. For many scholars the Rigveda appears to be be a nonsensical statement, and I would argue it is unless it is interpreted according to what Dirghatamas has to say about it in verse 46; that when the Rishis (Vipraa) are talking about the many gods of the Rigveda they are really talking about just the one god or reality. If one interprets the Rigveda from the Dirghatamas perspective, incongruities, like how important gods in a particular instances can take on the divine attributes of other important gods, can make sense because all the gods are being used to talk about the one god or reality. Interpreting the Rigveda from his perspective also makes sense of how in different instances different gods of the Rigveda can be worshipped as the supreme god of the Rigvedic gods. Interpreting the Rigveda from his perspective also accords well with the notion many Orthodox Brahmans have of how the term Vedanta not only means those texts that come at the end of the Vedic period, but can also mean those texts that teach the knowledge that is hidden in the Vedas. Rajesh, I believe that because the hymns of the Rigveda were at some time collected together and arranged in a particular order that we can expect it has a self-consistency, and I also believe there is enough evidence to argue that what Dirghatamas says in verse 46 applies to the whole of the Rigveda. All the best, Bruce Duffy On 10/6/08 5:33 PM, " Rajesh Kochhar " <rkochhar2000 wrote: > > > > It is well known fact that Rv was composed over along period of time > by a variety of independent authors. There is thus no reason to > expect self-consistency from Rv. What Dirgghatamas said is his > view. It cannot apply to the whole of Rv. > Rajesh Kochhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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