Fwd: [Ind-Arch] Women in the Veda

[Guest guest]

---------- Forwarded message ----------Francesco Brighenti <frabrigMar 8, 2008 1:33 AM

[ind-Arch] Women in the VedaIndiaArchaeology

 

 

 

 

IndiaArchaeology , shivraj singh <shivkhokra wrote:

> Julia Leslie (Essence and Existence: Women and religion in ancient> Indian text, in Women's religious experience, Ed. Pat Holden, > Totowa, Barnes and Noble Books, Pages 89,112) notes that Indian

> women in vedic time could do vedic rituals and conduct sacrifices. > > Then Elison Banks Findely (Gargi at the king's court: in Women, > religion and social change, Ed: Yvvonne Haddad Pages 37-58) has

> proven that as late as 600 B.C women were recognized as Vedic > scholars. > > ...the introduction that Witzel has written that Vedas were not> for women is non-sense started by Max Mueller and he is

> perpetuating it. What is surprising that when material is > available to the contrary why do these " scholars " cling to writing > falsehoods? See the pdf document named " Stephanie W. Jamison - Women in the

Veda. pdf " I have added to the group's Files section today for you to read it.FB -- Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within the reach of every hand.~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~

[Guest guest]

MW makes no secret of his association with christian missionaries

and certainly, it is this association that gives him the contempt

that he holds for Indian tradition.

 

He always abfudges facts and does not answer the objections.

 

There was a heated debate in the recent years between NS Rajaram and

Witzel on the Vedic verse referring to the sacrifice of horse

(RV.I.162.18, White YV.25.41).

 

Let me quote both the verses here:

 

18 The four-and-thirty ribs of the. Swift Charger, kin to the Gods,

the slayer's hatchet pierces.

Cut ye with skill, so that the parts be flawless, and piece by piece

declaring them dissect them ( RV I. 162.18,Griffith)

 

41 The four-and-thirty ribs of the swift Courser, kin to the

Gods, the slayer's hatchet pierces.(YV 25.41, Griffith)

 

The meaning of the above verses is very simple and they say that the

ribs of a horse is 34. But Witzel hotly contests this and says that

since the normal number of ribs is 36, it must be more symbolic than

a physical horse that was being mentioned. However, it is not an

unknown fact that the indian horses smaller than the imported horses

and horses with 34 ribs are prevalent. On the other hand, it is also

possible that the RV is not sacrificing the two ribs (say those of

private parts!)

 

More so, in the same breathe, the Rv mentions about 360 days and 12

months per year which can not have any symbolic menaing. Thus, even

witzel's followers agree that this is a contradiction of

interpretation:

 

" This observation adds some more confusion to the entire discussion

as in one case (the former[ie the number of ribs- kishore]) the

number has a symbolic meaning and in the other (latter[ie the number

of days and months- kishore]) it does not. "

 

I am not going into the implications or the conclusions drawn

thereon with this argument but I am only making an example how

Witzel tries to tries to impose his own interpretations where the

things are implicatingly simpler and indicate other interpretations.

 

(The horse was known to Indian thousands of years ago for eg see the

references on Bhimbetka caves which have paintings of the hunter

riding a horse. These paintings are dated to alteast 7000 bce, if

not before)

 

Similarly, in a recent example, I have made a request to comment on

the word Rayim (RV 1.1.3) interpreting it as inner prosperity. I

quote the verse here:

 

aghninâ rayimaúnavat po & #7779;ameva dive-dive |

yaúasa & #7747; vîravattamam ||

 

 

3 Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,

Most rich in heroes, glorious.(griffith)

 

In a private mail to me, MW has condemned me severely saying that it

is not inner prosperity but mere riches like say cows and money.

 

I opposed him on two counts:

 

A. Here the sage is asking for something more than wealth- he is

asking for wealth which would not be ordinarly waning along with

something more metaphysical, the fame. Thus, the sage is very clear

in his request that he is not asking for mundane riches. more over,

the context also clearly specifies that here, the hotar is Agni

himself and invitation is also extended to Angi himself. Thus, the

scene does not depict an ordinary yajna but a spiritual experience.

The first verse itself makes it very clear that the ratna dhara is

being asked for, a constant stream of happiness and ecstacy. here,

the word does not mean the wealthy stones, which were not known in

those times.

 

B. The word rayim has been also used in the last verse of Isa

Upanishad and it appears that it has been used in Camakam also (this

has been pointed out by a member on one of the groups)

 

The context of Isa Upanishad is very clear- the quest for

immortality is on in the upanishad and the current verse invokes

Agni to show the good path (supatha) in order to attain the rayim ,

the inner prosperity. If the entire discourse is about attaining

immortality, how can the ordinary wealth find a place in the

context?

 

However, there is no reply on these objections, even though he has

continued the mails.

 

I am not commenting on the personality of MW but somehow, he holds a

contempt for Indian tradition.

 

Kishore patnaik

[Guest guest]

Kishore ji,

< See the pdf document named " Stephanie W.

Jamison - Women in the

Veda. pdf " I have added to the group's Files section today for you

to read it.>

 

Can

you please send the article as an attachment to me at my address?

Regards,

Kamlesh

 

 

 

 

On Behalf

Of kishore patnaik

Saturday, March 08, 2008 11:28 PM

;

Fwd: [ind-Arch] Women in the Veda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Francesco Brighenti <frabrig

Mar 8, 2008 1:33 AM

[ind-Arch] Women in the Veda

IndiaArchaeology

 

 

 

 

 

 

IndiaArchaeology ,

shivraj singh

<shivkhokra wrote:

 

> Julia Leslie (Essence and Existence: Women and religion in ancient

> Indian text, in Women's religious experience, Ed. Pat Holden,

> Totowa, Barnes and Noble Books, Pages 89,112) notes that Indian

> women in vedic time could do vedic rituals and conduct sacrifices.

>

> Then Elison Banks Findely (Gargi at the king's court: in Women,

> religion and social change, Ed: Yvvonne Haddad Pages 37-58) has

> proven that as late as 600 B.C women were recognized as Vedic

> scholars.

>

> ...the introduction that Witzel has written that Vedas were not

> for women is non-sense started by Max Mueller and he is

> perpetuating it. What is surprising that when material is

> available to the contrary why do these " scholars " cling to

writing

> falsehoods?

 

See the pdf document named " Stephanie W. Jamison - Women in the

Veda. pdf " I have added to the group's Files section today for you

to read it.

 

FB

 

 

 

 

--

Love is a fruit in season at all times,

and within the reach of every hand.

~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~

[Guest guest]

Kishore ji,

<(The horse was known to Indian thousands of years ago

for eg see the

references on Bhimbetka caves which have paintings of the hunter

riding a horse. These paintings are dated to alteast 7000 bce, if

not before) >

Do

you have copy of the said paintings? Can I have these?

Regards,

Kamlesh

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Kishore patnaik

Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:49 AM

 

Re: Fwd: [ind-Arch] Women in the Veda