Fwd: [tied] The craftsman Tvastr

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---------- Forwarded message ----------Francesco Brighenti <frabrigWed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:36 PM

[tied] Re: The craftsman Tvastrcybalist

 

 

 

 

 

 

cybalist , " Joao S. Lopes " <josimo70

wrote:

 

> " ...for instance, that the god Tvas.t.ar is also mentioned in the

> Avesta as a fashionerof animals pleads for a high antiquity of

> this tradition; cf. Boyce, 1975 p.81f... and he concludes that the

> term tvas.t.ar- originally must have been identical with the

> Avestic word thwo:r & s^tar-, i.e. 'shaper' or 'fashioner'.

>

> _Struggles of Gods: Papers of the Groningen Work Group for the

> Study of the History of Religions_.

 

Both the Vedic and the Avestan words are said to be from Proto-Indo-

Iranian *turs^tar- (or *tu_r & s^tar-, where /-/ denotes a glide

and / & / a syllabic resonant). For reconstruction, see Alexander

Lubotsky's article at

 

http://www.ieed.nl/lubotsky/pdf/avestan%20thworeshtar.pdf

 

> " Tvas.tr thus became the preceptor of men, and as he existed from

> time immemorial, he was called Jurat Tvastr, or the ancient

> Tvas.tr, which was corrupted into Zara-thustra^ and still further,

> into Zoroaster. "

>

> [...]

>

> This attempt to relate Zarathustra to an euhemerized Tvastr-like

> Avestan Divine Craftsman is interesting, instead of his name's

> usual etymologies " camel-driver " , or " golden-camel " .

 

For a review of all the proposed etymologies for the name

Zarathus^tra, see R. Schmitt's _Encyclopaedia Iranica_ article at

 

http://www.iranica.com/articles/sup/Zoroaster_the_name.html

 

What all etymologizers agree upon is, as pointed out by Schmitt,

that the second element in this name is Avestan us^tra-'camel':

 

" Much has been said about the etymology of the Avestan and in

general the Iranian forms of this name as well as about their

attribution to certain dialects. The only point universally agreed

upon is that the second element is Av. us^tra- 'camel' (it is found

in other anthroponyms also). "

 

Thus, the second element cannot be Avestan thwo:r & s^tar- ~ Vedic

tvas.t.ar- 'creator, fashioner, shaper'. The etymology you

unknowingly quoted is from Abinas Chandra Das' book _Rgvedic India_

(Calcutta 1918) -- see at

 

http://tinyurl.com/38bqey

 

This book in question is by now unreadable. It claims such crazy

things as that the beginning of Vedic culture is from 25,000 to

20,000 BCE, that the Vedic Aryans had been living in South Asia from

time immemorial, and that they contributed to the formative stages

of all the civilizations of the Ancient World (including Egypt,

Mesopotamia, the Levant, southern Europe etc.). Das' Zarathus^tra

< " Jurat-Tvas.t.ar " etymology is, of course, a kind of " Sanskrit

first " etymology justified by the absurd dating of Sanskrit by that

author.

 

Regards,

Francesco

 

 

 

-- Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within the reach of every hand.~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~

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---------- Forwarded message ----------Joao S. Lopes <josimo70Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:13 PM

Res: [tied] Re: The craftsman Tvastrcybalist

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see many possibilities in Tvastr origins:1- His role as father of Vrtra, Saranyu and Tris^iras seems to me very similar to Loki in Scandinavia, who was also father of a dragon (Jormungandr), a " terrible " woman (Hel) and to Greek clan of " monster " , including dragons (Ekhidna, Typhon, Hydra), an equine goddess (Medousa), a three-headed (Geryon), and a divine horse (Pegasos cf. a horse created by Tvastr and Sleipnir son of Loki). Tvastr-Loki fought Indra-Thor. I'm trying to studying a possible trio of primordial gods slaying the Primordial Man (cf. Odinn-Hoenir-Loki/Odinn-Vili-Ve, Zeus-Hades-Poseidon, Zeus-Kyklops-Hekatongkheir)

2- A common trait of all Smith Gods in Eastern Asia and Mediterranean, like Ugaritic Ktr-Hss, Sumerian Gibil, Hephaistos, Vulcanus, etc.3- A Creator role similar to Egyptian Ptah, who also was a " maker " of forms and creatures " .

JS Lopes

----- Mensagem original ----De: kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09

Para: cybalist Enviadas: Quinta-feira, 3 de Abril de 2008 10:00:38Assunto: Re: [tied] Re: The craftsman Tvastr[irrelevant quotes & HTML removed -- Piotr] All these messages are being forwarded to AncientIndia. I hope there is noobjection.kishore patnaik

-- Love is a fruit in season at all times,and within the reach of every hand.~:~ Mother Theresa ~:~---