Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008  Those and these are my personal idea based view points and are non revisionist, non reformist, non exhaustive, non conclusive. I do not dispute any other view points. I accept them more because i enjoy heritage sciences. i love, expertise. idea no. 1 and idea no. 2 as suggestive of idea No. X to N ................constitutes Histo-Cultural Phonetics ? Possibly, the oldest yet phonetically nearest to 'Raya' is the Pharaoic pronouncement 'Ra' (sun god and also the taurus-bull). Some or few Pharaoh(s) have been mentioned as Ra. The term 'Rajan' is of much later coinage ? See : Chotaraya, Sundaraya, Routaraya, Samantaraya, Kalingaraya, etc...........................(only) Raya, (these are all family titles of sword bearing martial classes, called as Khandaits, very much vogue in present day Orissa)......Raya-Mahapatra, Raya Ramananda .....etc., are gubernatorial ...while Bhramarabara-Raya-Mahapatra is a title of a c-in-c of the erstwhile kalingiya imperial Gajapati era. Many among these Rayas had travelled as body guards, et.al., along with princes Sanghamitra. Even to this day in Singhala they are noted. Life style is said to be that of Khandaits as in Orissa-this day. Do not mislead yourself. I have deleberately coloured it to trigger thinking. The real component is Raya. The syllable a in a-raya is part of the consonant that precedes and folows it i.e. it is part of the fore part which is a verb and can also be a part of the terminal part which is a noun. We may see the phone arya is embossed in to the phone a-raya. May the reader note 'ra', 'ra', 'ra', all over, in all the terms as in the phone 'Prakrit'. 'Ra' hides more then it reveals. What is that ? if 'ra' is picked out from any of the phones of the Raya series, the ethos, concept and delivery swivels. If any other segment is picked out, so much swerve do not occur. The presence of 'ra' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a official position. What about poor Bhatta-ch-arya (scholar-the-noble/great ?) ? The Aryas that you all are looking for (and thought to have apparently gone missing), is possibly here !! .......Rangacharya, Tripitakacharya, Paramacharya, Sankaracharya, Vedacharya, Vedantacharya, Srinivasacharya, etc,...........Acharya (great/noble/refined -being), and off course Bhatta-ch-arya ! Wow quite a tribe ! These chaps are a different lot from the Rayas ? The Raya yeilds the sword, the Arya yeilds the stylus. if 'ar' is picked out from any of the phones of the Arya series, the ethos, concept and delivery also swivels. The presence of 'ar' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a socio-cultural position/expertise. The notion of nobleness or greatnes arises out of experitse (physical and/or mental). Hence, Rayas and Aryas. These Rayas and Aryas are not Bhutanus (bacterians), nor Kusanas ( grasslanders), neither Yavans (gallic-helenic). There is no iota of suggestion in Hindu tradition (hope time bears me out) that at any point of time any of the members of the Bhutanus, Kusanas or Yavans ever got the title of any sort of Acharya or even Raya. So, neither Kingship nor Scholarship got imported into the Indian sub-continent (as an instatenous injection, bolus or fractional in some undermined past). The joy of the topic Rayas and Aryas is all embeded and sub-merged. Researching it may require highly organised, abelised, multi-disciplinary, multi-lateral, well focused, long scope effort. I certainly fall short. this may be of help to us ~ 1 - A.E . Wallis Budge, History of Egypt , Anthro Publications, Netherlands, 1902. 2 - J.N.Bannerjee, Development of Hindu Iconography, Munshiram Manoharlal, 1956, Delhi. 3 - K. N. Mahapatra, Khordha Itihas (Odiya). 4 - M.N.Das, Military History of Orissa ?? 5 - D. Bhattacharya, 2 articles awaiting publication Others................ The above constitues Theoretical History. Warm Regards, for not taking offense at model idea and for not belting out any either. db Dr. Deepak Bhattacharya C/o Radha Krishna Kedar Gouri Road Bhubaneswar-751002 NOTE : Even regarding the phone pair 'Deepak Bhattacharya', there are at least penta in this city, (i) this simpleton (ii) sanskritist (iii) photo journalist (iv) banker/accountant (v) in judicail custody. Oh ! could make good census in the whole of the sub-continent. - h.padmanabaiah nagarajaiah Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:02 PM Re: My rejoinder Shravanabelagola The etymology of the place name Shravanabelagola is as follows; It is a compound word consisting of three components-- Shravana means Jaina monk.It is a Sanskrit word and becomes samaNa and savaNa in Prakrit without any change in its meaning. The second part of the Compound word is bel ( from the root vel), which means white, pure etc.Vel / bel is a Kannada word and belongs to the Dravidian Family of Languages. The third part of the compound word is gola( from kola), which means pond. kola / gola is a Kannada word. Thus the place name Shravanabelagola has three units consisting of one Sanskrit and two Kannada words. The meaning of the place name Shravanabelagola is ' white pond of Jaina monks'. Even today there is big pond in the centre of the town. It is an ancient historical place of greater significance in the Country. The word Raya is from Sanskrit Rajan which means a king.Rajan takes the form of arasan in Kannada and Tamil. It also takes the form of raya, rao, raj in many Indian languages. Prof. Hampa. Nagarajaiah--- On Sun, 12/10/08, ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> wrote: ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> My rejoinder Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:38 PM - "ODDISILAB" <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> "Ashok Aklujkar" <ashok.aklujkar@ ubc.ca> Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:47 PM Re: Raya, Rai > Thank you.> > These are My personal view point.> > Now point no. 1 - Kharavela is a acronym of 2 odiya terms Khara > (Bright/Schorching Sun), and Bela (time/period) .> > e.g. (Karnataka-Mahavira ) ~ Sravana Vela Ghola ? Sravana = season. Bela > = occassion. Ghola= the curd mix / butter milk [spring time butter milk > festival]. Phones and phrases of pre grammar periods.> > The prefix Aira = is certainly Prakrit. The script is Brahmi. It is likely > that it denotes Raya (as in Krishna Deva Raya).> Krishna is the call name, Deva is the divine equal sense make, Raya = the > great nobel/leader -> Therefore, Krishna the God like Title holder of all properties ?> > What does such a Raya have ?> > Among others he has Royats/Rayats (revenue paying farmers).> > And what do such Royats do // OR why such term at all ?> > They till/manage the Rai (medenin/soil) ! for and behalf of the Raya ?> > One political state to have one Raya (at any one time ) ?> No. He divides his powers to various profession types of Rayas, various > ranks of Rayas = The wider the distribution pattern the higher sits the apex > Raya =Deva Raya [God alike Nobel(ity)].> > Thank you> > Deepak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 There are other possibilities : Raya is another form of Raja ; the J interchaneably becoming Y as happened in many other cases e.g. YAMUNA >>> JAMUNA ; YOGENDER >>>> JOGENDER etc. AYA and AYYA so commonly used in Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka to show respect are derived from ARYA meaning a noble person On 10/19/08, kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: Sir, Raya (Prkt) is a dervied from Rajah (skt.). You are trying to back form the word which is not acceptable. On the other hand, root of Raja is traced to Rex ( see my message archieved at /message/653) The main issue here is kingship was well formed by Rgvedic times, which is generallly accepted by all, except a handful leftist authors. The original meanings of Arya have got to do with 'stranger " (in south Indian langauges, Ari means enemy, which is not found in North Indian langauges) vis a vis the word Manu (refer certain Rg Vedic hymns where Manavas are addressed along with Asuras - here both being tribes, Manavas are a tribe derived from Manu, the name Manava for a human being might have been a later development) See how the South Indian languages attest this again - Mana stands for we ! The oldest societal dichotomy could be very well understood from these aspects - Arya vs Manu tribes which have to be very carefully understood in the Puranic contexts. regards, Kishore patnaik -- Bhalchandra G. ThatteyShubham BhavatuSvalpasya Yogasya Trayate Mahato Bhayat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Raya (Prkt) is a dervied from Rajah (skt.). An prakrit phone arising out of sanskrit phone ? - kishore patnaik Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:48 AM Re: Histo-Cultural Phonetics Sir, Raya (Prkt) is a dervied from Rajah (skt.). You are trying to back form the word which is not acceptable. On the other hand, root of Raja is traced to Rex ( see my message archieved at /message/653) The main issue here is kingship was well formed by Rgvedic times, which is generallly accepted by all, except a handful leftist authors. The original meanings of Arya have got to do with 'stranger" (in south Indian langauges, Ari means enemy, which is not found in North Indian langauges) vis a vis the word Manu (refer certain Rg Vedic hymns where Manavas are addressed along with Asuras - here both being tribes, Manavas are a tribe derived from Manu, the name Manava for a human being might have been a later development) See how the South Indian languages attest this again - Mana stands for we ! The oldest societal dichotomy could be very well understood from these aspects - Arya vs Manu tribes which have to be very carefully understood in the Puranic contexts. regards, Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 I am an Iyengar Brahmin.You have talked about Kalinga alone.The word Aacharya is different from Raaya.In the Iyengar Brahmin community for time immorial people have the name Srinivaachai, Raghavaachari, Ranghaachari etc.In this the the second word Aachai is combined with the various names.The word Aachari is a collocial form of AACHARYA .The word Aacharya means Spritual Perceptor.Arya means one who is Noble.The word Arya was culturally and never used racially as propounded by the supported by the Pseudo historians who impose the myth of Aryan Invasion Theory.There never existed races called Aryan and Drividian these words were used only culturally.Even the Tamil Iyengar Brahmins had their name Arya for time immorial.As I stated in my article earlier which was not approved in this group, Therewas Vedic civilization worldover in ancient times.And even the Greek Civilization Peruvian Civilization, Maya civilization, Chi9nese civilization were are the offshoot of Vedic civilization.And most importantly, at home, the Indus Valley civilization was a Vedic civilization.There is ample evidence for these.All languages of the earth originated from the one language the Vedic Language which had no name but was called AARYA.It had many scripts from which all the scripts of the world evolved.Though the ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 Histo-Cultural Phonetics Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 10:33 AM  Those and these are my personal idea based view points and are non revisionist, non reformist, non exhaustive, non conclusive. I do not dispute any other view points. I accept them more because i enjoy heritage sciences. i love, expertise. idea no. 1 and idea no. 2 as suggestive of idea No. X to N ............ ....constitutes Histo-Cultural Phonetics ? Possibly, the oldest yet phonetically nearest to 'Raya' is the Pharaoic pronouncement 'Ra' (sun god and also the taurus-bull) . Some or few Pharaoh(s) have been mentioned as Ra. The term 'Rajan' is of much later coinage ? See : Chotaraya, Sundaraya, Routaraya, Samantaraya, Kalingaraya, etc......... ......... ......... (only) Raya, (these are all family titles of sword bearing martial classes, called as Khandaits, very much vogue in present day Orissa)......Raya- Mahapatra, Raya Ramananda .....etc., are gubernatorial ...while Bhramarabara- Raya-Mahapatra is a title of a c-in-c of the erstwhile kalingiya imperial Gajapati era. Many among these Rayas had travelled as body guards, et.al., along with princes Sanghamitra. Even to this day in Singhala they are noted. Life style is said to be that of Khandaits as in Orissa-this day. Do not mislead yourself. I have deleberately coloured it to trigger thinking. The real component is Raya. The syllable a in a-raya is part of the consonant that precedes and folows it i.e. it is part of the fore part which is a verb and can also be a part of the terminal part which is a noun. We may see the phone arya is embossed in to the phone a-raya. May the reader note 'ra', 'ra', 'ra', all over, in all the terms as in the phone 'Prakrit'. 'Ra' hides more then it reveals. What is that ? if 'ra' is picked out from any of the phones of the Raya series, the ethos, concept and delivery swivels. If any other segment is picked out, so much swerve do not occur. The presence of 'ra' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a official position. What about poor Bhatta-ch-arya (scholar-the- noble/great ?) ? The Aryas that you all are looking for (and thought to have apparently gone missing), is possibly here !! .......Rangacharya, Tripitakacharya, Paramacharya, Sankaracharya, Vedacharya, Vedantacharya, Srinivasacharya, etc,........ ...Acharya (great/noble/ refined -being), and off course Bhatta-ch-arya ! Wow quite a tribe ! These chaps are a different lot from the Rayas ? The Raya yeilds the sword, the Arya yeilds the stylus. if 'ar' is picked out from any of the phones of the Arya series, the ethos, concept and delivery also swivels. The presence of 'ar' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a socio-cultural position/expertise. The notion of nobleness or greatnes arises out of experitse (physical and/or mental). Hence, Rayas and Aryas. These Rayas and Aryas are not Bhutanus (bacterians), nor Kusanas ( grasslanders) , neither Yavans (gallic-helenic) . There is no iota of suggestion in Hindu tradition (hope time bears me out) that at any point of time any of the members of the Bhutanus, Kusanas or Yavans ever got the title of any sort of Acharya or even Raya. So, neither Kingship nor Scholarship got imported into the Indian sub-continent (as an instatenous injection, bolus or fractional in some undermined past). The joy of the topic Rayas and Aryas is all embeded and sub-merged. Researching it may require highly organised, abelised, multi-disciplinary, multi-lateral, well focused, long scope effort. I certainly fall short. this may be of help to us ~ 1 - A.E . Wallis Budge, History of Egypt , Anthro Publications, Netherlands , 1902. 2 - J.N.Bannerjee, Development of Hindu Iconography, Munshiram Manoharlal, 1956, Delhi. 3 - K. N. Mahapatra, Khordha Itihas (Odiya). 4 - M.N.Das, Military History of Orissa ?? 5 - D. Bhattacharya, 2 articles awaiting publication Others...... ......... . The above constitues Theoretical History. Warm Regards, for not taking offense at model idea and for not belting out any either. db Dr. Deepak Bhattacharya C/o Radha Krishna Kedar Gouri Road Bhubaneswar- 751002 NOTE : Even regarding the phone pair 'Deepak Bhattacharya' , there are at least penta in this city, (i) this simpleton (ii) sanskritist (iii) photo journalist (iv) banker/accountant (v) in judicail custody. Oh ! could make good census in the whole of the sub-continent. - h.padmanabaiah nagarajaiah Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:02 PM Re: My rejoinder Shravanabelagola The etymology of the place name Shravanabelagola is as follows; It is a compound word consisting of three components-- Shravana means Jaina monk.It is a Sanskrit word and becomes samaNa and savaNa in Prakrit without any change in its meaning. The second part of the Compound word is bel ( from the root vel), which means white, pure etc.Vel / bel is a Kannada word and belongs to the Dravidian Family of Languages. The third part of the compound word is gola( from kola), which means pond. kola / gola is a Kannada word. Thus the place name Shravanabelagola has three units consisting of one Sanskrit and two Kannada words. The meaning of the place name Shravanabelagola is ' white pond of Jaina monks'. Even today there is big pond in the centre of the town. It is an ancient historical place of greater significance in the Country. The word Raya is from Sanskrit Rajan which means a king.Rajan takes the form of arasan in Kannada and Tamil. It also takes the form of raya, rao, raj in many Indian languages. Prof. Hampa. Nagarajaiah--- On Sun, 12/10/08, ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> wrote: ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> My rejoinderSunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:38 PM - "ODDISILAB" <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> "Ashok Aklujkar" <ashok.aklujkar@ ubc.ca> Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:47 PM Re: Raya, Rai > Thank you.> > These are My personal view point.> > Now point no. 1 - Kharavela is a acronym of 2 odiya terms Khara > (Bright/Schorching Sun), and Bela (time/period) .> > e.g. (Karnataka-Mahavira ) ~ Sravana Vela Ghola ? Sravana = season. Bela > = occassion. Ghola= the curd mix / butter milk [spring time butter milk > festival]. Phones and phrases of pre grammar periods.> > The prefix Aira = is certainly Prakrit. The script is Brahmi. It is likely > that it denotes Raya (as in Krishna Deva Raya).> Krishna is the call name, Deva is the divine equal sense make, Raya = the > great nobel/leader -> Therefore, Krishna the God like Title holder of all properties ?> > What does such a Raya have ?> > Among others he has Royats/Rayats (revenue paying farmers).> > And what do such Royats do // OR why such term at all ?> > They till/manage the Rai (medenin/soil) ! for and behalf of the Raya ?> > One political state to have one Raya (at any one time ) ?> No. He divides his powers to various profession types of Rayas, various > ranks of Rayas = The wider the distribution pattern the higher sits the apex > Raya =Deva Raya [God alike Nobel(ity)].> > Thank you> > Deepak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 , " kishore patnaik " <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: > The original meanings of Arya have got to do with 'stranger " (in south > Indian langauges, Ari means enemy, which is not found in North Indian > langauges)< No, in RV Skt too, and that's where Dravidian borrowed it. It's related to Latin " alius " , whence English " alien " . Whence in Skt. the word Arya with short " a " , as in the theonym " Aryaman " , " other- minded " , " stranger-minded " , " hospitable, altruistic " . It was Paul Thieme's little idea that " Arya " with long a, the form that denoted the " Aryans " , was also derived from this. He may have had ideological compulsions, being a German working under and just after Nazism, to turn the Aryans into something else than selfish racists, viz. altruistic xenophiles. Thieme's etymology has been generally rejected. We already discussed the more likely etymology here on this list, viz. " fellow tribesman " , as attested in Anatolian along with Indo-Iranian. Why are you suddenly ignoring this? > vis a vis the word Manu (refer certain Rg Vedic hymns where > Manavas are addressed along with Asuras - here both being tribes, Manavas > are a tribe derived from Manu, the name Manava for a human being might have > been a later development) > In my RV index, I don't find " manava " . Could you give the reference? > See how the South Indian languages attest this again - Mana stands for we ! > > The oldest societal dichotomy could be very well understood from these > aspects - Arya vs Manu tribes which have to be very carefully understood in > the Puranic contexts. > The Arya tribes were of course Manava tribes themselves, their founders Puru and Anu being descendents of Manu. Kind regards, KE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Dear Bhalchandra Thattey, You have missed the thread I think. Here, Dr Bhattacharya has proposed that Arya has emanated from Raya. In response, I told him this is not possible since Arya is an older word than Raya. To substantiate, I have pointed out that Raya is a prakrit term for Raja(hence, Raja is older to Raya) and since Arya is a term found along with Raja in RV, Arya must be older to Raya. For a better appreciation of word , I have pointed out the root of Raja as Rex. I hope this clarifies, Kishore patnaik On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Bhalchandra Thattey <tobhalgt wrote: Well said. Are there 2 words ACHAI and ACHARI? Interestingly ACHARI is used for a cook in Marathi It is as clear as daylight that RAAYAA is a version of RAAJAA and not REX ( as oddsilab seems to be thinking) which is a Latin word. It is well known that J and Y get interchanged. It happens not only in Indian languages but also in the European languages. It also happens in Sanskrit itself. There is no need to write a big thesis on RAAYAA. What is the point in repetetion? No great pupose is served by that. Even in Marathi the father of DHRUVA is called UTTANAPADA_RAAYAA and not RAAJAA. BhauRaayaa is a very common Marathi nick / call_name. You have probably heard the name of BalwantRAI Bhatt, a famous GUJARATI classical singer. And what about Krishna_Deva_Raya the Vijaya_Nagar emperor and a great patron of the Telugu language? With these examples no language can claim the monopoly on RAAYAA as ODDISILAB seems to be doing. There are several names in Hindi and Begali and Assamese ending with RAI, ROY etc. Bhalchandra G. Thattey On 10/19/08, venkata krishnan <bcvk71 wrote: Sorry, the mail was sent before I finised typing.To continue:\ Though the scripts were different the language was same which was Aarya.Later on Maharshi Paanini abridged the Vedic Language Aarya and wrote the first grammar in the world , the Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the abridged languaged SAMSKRTAM.SAMYAKA KRTAM SAMSKRTAM meaning Well Done.Later on based on ASHTAADHDHYAAYI by MAHARSHI PAANINI, MAHARSHI Agastyawrote the first grammer for Tamil called Agastyam which does not available now.The script used for Tamil languaage originally Granthalibi meaning the script of Granthas from which modern Tamil szcript evolved in stages.And venkata krishnan <bcvk71Re: Histo-Cultural Phonetics Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 6:04 PM I am an Iyengar Brahmin.You have talked about Kalinga alone.The word Aacharya is different from Raaya.In the Iyengar Brahmin community for time immorial people have the name Srinivaachai, Raghavaachari, Ranghaachari etc.In this the the second word Aachai is combined with the various names.The word Aachari is a collocial form of AACHARYA .The word Aacharya means Spritual Perceptor.Arya means one who is Noble.The word Arya was culturally and never used racially as propounded by the supported by the Pseudo historians who impose the myth of Aryan Invasion Theory.There never existed races called Aryan and Drividian these words were used only culturally.Even the Tamil Iyengar Brahmins had their name Arya for time immorial.As I stated in my article earlier which was not approved in this group, Therewas Vedic civilization worldover in ancient times.And even the Greek Civilization Peruvian Civilization, Maya civilization, Chi9nese civilization were are the offshoot of Vedic civilization.And most importantly, at home, the Indus Valley civilization was a Vedic civilization.There is ample evidence for these.All languages of the earth originated from the one language the Vedic Language which had no name but was called AARYA.It had many scripts from which all the scripts of the world evolved.Though the scripts were different the language was same which is ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 Histo-Cultural Phonetics Sunday, October 19, 2008, 10:33 AM  Those and these are my personal idea based view points and are non revisionist, non reformist, non exhaustive, non conclusive. I do not dispute any other view points. I accept them more because i enjoy heritage sciences. i love, expertise. idea no. 1 and idea no. 2 as suggestive of idea No. X to N ............ ....constitutes Histo-Cultural Phonetics ? Possibly, the oldest yet phonetically nearest to 'Raya' is the Pharaoic pronouncement 'Ra' (sun god and also the taurus-bull) . Some or few Pharaoh(s) have been mentioned as Ra. The term 'Rajan' is of much later coinage ? See : Chotaraya, Sundaraya, Routaraya, Samantaraya, Kalingaraya, etc......... ......... ......... (only) Raya, (these are all family titles of sword bearing martial classes, called as Khandaits, very much vogue in present day Orissa)......Raya- Mahapatra, Raya Ramananda .....etc., are gubernatorial ...while Bhramarabara- Raya-Mahapatra is a title of a c-in-c of the erstwhile kalingiya imperial Gajapati era. Many among these Rayas had travelled as body guards, et.al., along with princes Sanghamitra. Even to this day in Singhala they are noted. Life style is said to be that of Khandaits as in Orissa-this day. Do not mislead yourself. I have deleberately coloured it to trigger thinking. The real component is Raya. The syllable a in a-raya is part of the consonant that precedes and folows it i.e. it is part of the fore part which is a verb and can also be a part of the terminal part which is a noun. We may see the phone arya is embossed in to the phone a-raya. May the reader note 'ra', 'ra', 'ra', all over, in all the terms as in the phone 'Prakrit'. 'Ra' hides more then it reveals. What is that ? if 'ra' is picked out from any of the phones of the Raya series, the ethos, concept and delivery swivels. If any other segment is picked out, so much swerve do not occur. The presence of 'ra' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a official position. What about poor Bhatta-ch-arya (scholar-the- noble/great ?) ? The Aryas that you all are looking for (and thought to have apparently gone missing), is possibly here !! .......Rangacharya, Tripitakacharya, Paramacharya, Sankaracharya, Vedacharya, Vedantacharya, Srinivasacharya, etc,........ ...Acharya (great/noble/ refined -being), and off course Bhatta-ch-arya ! Wow quite a tribe ! These chaps are a different lot from the Rayas ? The Raya yeilds the sword, the Arya yeilds the stylus. if 'ar' is picked out from any of the phones of the Arya series, the ethos, concept and delivery also swivels. The presence of 'ar' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a socio-cultural position/expertise. The notion of nobleness or greatnes arises out of experitse (physical and/or mental). Hence, Rayas and Aryas. These Rayas and Aryas are not Bhutanus (bacterians), nor Kusanas ( grasslanders) , neither Yavans (gallic-helenic) . There is no iota of suggestion in Hindu tradition (hope time bears me out) that at any point of time any of the members of the Bhutanus, Kusanas or Yavans ever got the title of any sort of Acharya or even Raya. So, neither Kingship nor Scholarship got imported into the Indian sub-continent (as an instatenous injection, bolus or fractional in some undermined past). The joy of the topic Rayas and Aryas is all embeded and sub-merged. Researching it may require highly organised, abelised, multi-disciplinary, multi-lateral, well focused, long scope effort. I certainly fall short. this may be of help to us ~ 1 - A.E . Wallis Budge, History of Egypt , Anthro Publications, Netherlands , 1902. 2 - J.N.Bannerjee, Development of Hindu Iconography, Munshiram Manoharlal, 1956, Delhi. 3 - K. N. Mahapatra, Khordha Itihas (Odiya). 4 - M.N.Das, Military History of Orissa ?? 5 - D. Bhattacharya, 2 articles awaiting publication Others...... ......... . The above constitues Theoretical History. Warm Regards, for not taking offense at model idea and for not belting out any either. db Dr. Deepak Bhattacharya C/o Radha Krishna Kedar Gouri Road Bhubaneswar- 751002 NOTE : Even regarding the phone pair 'Deepak Bhattacharya' , there are at least penta in this city, (i) this simpleton (ii) sanskritist (iii) photo journalist (iv) banker/accountant (v) in judicail custody. Oh ! could make good census in the whole of the sub-continent. - h.padmanabaiah nagarajaiah Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:02 PM Re: My rejoinder Shravanabelagola The etymology of the place name Shravanabelagola is as follows; It is a compound word consisting of three components-- Shravana means Jaina monk.It is a Sanskrit word and becomes samaNa and savaNa in Prakrit without any change in its meaning. The second part of the Compound word is bel ( from the root vel), which means white, pure etc.Vel / bel is a Kannada word and belongs to the Dravidian Family of Languages. The third part of the compound word is gola( from kola), which means pond. kola / gola is a Kannada word. Thus the place name Shravanabelagola has three units consisting of one Sanskrit and two Kannada words. The meaning of the place name Shravanabelagola is ' white pond of Jaina monks'. Even today there is big pond in the centre of the town. It is an ancient historical place of greater significance in the Country. The word Raya is from Sanskrit Rajan which means a king.Rajan takes the form of arasan in Kannada and Tamil. It also takes the form of raya, rao, raj in many Indian languages. Prof. Hampa. Nagarajaiah--- On Sun, 12/10/08, ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> wrote: ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> My rejoinderSunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:38 PM - " ODDISILAB " <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> " Ashok Aklujkar " <ashok.aklujkar@ ubc.ca> Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:47 PM Re: Raya, Rai > Thank you.> > These are My personal view point.> > Now point no. 1 - Kharavela is a acronym of 2 odiya terms Khara > (Bright/Schorching Sun), and Bela (time/period) . > > e.g. (Karnataka-Mahavira ) ~ Sravana Vela Ghola ? Sravana = season. Bela > = occassion. Ghola= the curd mix / butter milk [spring time butter milk > festival]. Phones and phrases of pre grammar periods. > > The prefix Aira = is certainly Prakrit. The script is Brahmi. It is likely > that it denotes Raya (as in Krishna Deva Raya).> Krishna is the call name, Deva is the divine equal sense make, Raya = the > great nobel/leader -> Therefore, Krishna the God like Title holder of all properties ?> > What does such a Raya have ?> > Among others he has Royats/Rayats (revenue paying farmers). > > And what do such Royats do // OR why such term at all ?> > They till/manage the Rai (medenin/soil) ! for and behalf of the Raya ?> > One political state to have one Raya (at any one time ) ? > No. He divides his powers to various profession types of Rayas, various > ranks of Rayas = The wider the distribution pattern the higher sits the apex > Raya =Deva Raya [God alike Nobel(ity)].> > Thank you> > Deepak -- Bhalchandra G. ThatteyShubham BhavatuSvalpasya Yogasya Trayate Mahato Bhayat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008  Addendum idea giver db has also not said or suggested even tacitly which among the two terms is older. Nothing like this. Sorry. - ODDISILAB Monday, October 20, 2008 2:30 PM Re: Histo-Cultural Phonetics The gentle will prefer to end their posts with the salutation 'Regards'. Pray, db has not opined that Arya or Raya emanated from each other took to any particular phonetic pathway. He only drew the attention by posting an easy example, that is also representative, that if Raya be noted to be embedded in numerous titles, Arya too is also indeed. Either make bed partners and are fuzzable. The difference is that, Raya has an state/political component and Arya has an cultural/societal component. Distinct on such count (this is the moot point). Which of the two is older how and why has also not been dwelt upon by db. db further tacitly indicates, that, If the perspective be changed (by picking out select syllable), the results change. In other words, if the model is changed results may be different. He went on to point in the direction that such difficult domain is not his. Dr. M.D.Subhas Chandran may have something very interesting and engrossing to say mdschandra , Klimta-581343, C-T 89, Viveknagar, Karnataka. Regards db A p - kishore patnaik Monday, October 20, 2008 1:52 PM Re: Histo-Cultural Phonetics Dear Bhalchandra Thattey, You have missed the thread I think. Here, Dr Bhattacharya has proposed that Arya has emanated from Raya. In response, I told him this is not possible since Arya is an older word than Raya. To substantiate, I have pointed out that Raya is a prakrit term for Raja(hence, Raja is older to Raya) and since Arya is a term found along with Raja in RV, Arya must be older to Raya. For a better appreciation of word , I have pointed out the root of Raja as Rex. I hope this clarifies, Kishore patnaik On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Bhalchandra Thattey <tobhalgt (AT) grouply (DOT) com> wrote: Well said. Are there 2 words ACHAI and ACHARI? Interestingly ACHARI is used for a cook in Marathi It is as clear as daylight that RAAYAA is a version of RAAJAA and not REX ( as oddsilab seems to be thinking) which is a Latin word. It is well known that J and Y get interchanged. It happens not only in Indian languages but also in the European languages. It also happens in Sanskrit itself. There is no need to write a big thesis on RAAYAA. What is the point in repetetion? No great pupose is served by that. Even in Marathi the father of DHRUVA is called UTTANAPADA_RAAYAA and not RAAJAA. BhauRaayaa is a very common Marathi nick / call_name. You have probably heard the name of BalwantRAI Bhatt, a famous GUJARATI classical singer. And what about Krishna_Deva_Raya the Vijaya_Nagar emperor and a great patron of the Telugu language? With these examples no language can claim the monopoly on RAAYAA as ODDISILAB seems to be doing. There are several names in Hindi and Begali and Assamese ending with RAI, ROY etc. Bhalchandra G. Thattey On 10/19/08, venkata krishnan <bcvk71 > wrote: Sorry, the mail was sent before I finised typing.To continue:\ Though the scripts were different the language was same which was Aarya.Later on Maharshi Paanini abridged the Vedic Language Aarya and wrote the first grammar in the world , the Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the abridged languaged SAMSKRTAM.SAMYAKA KRTAM SAMSKRTAM meaning Well Done.Later on based on ASHTAADHDHYAAYI by MAHARSHI PAANINI, MAHARSHI Agastyawrote the first grammer for Tamil called Agastyam which does not available now.The script used for Tamil languaage originally Granthalibi meaning the script of Granthas from which modern Tamil szcript evolved in stages.And venkata krishnan <bcvk71 >Re: Histo-Cultural Phonetics Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 6:04 PM I am an Iyengar Brahmin.You have talked about Kalinga alone.The word Aacharya is different from Raaya.In the Iyengar Brahmin community for time immorial people have the name Srinivaachai, Raghavaachari, Ranghaachari etc.In this the the second word Aachai is combined with the various names.The word Aachari is a collocial form of AACHARYA .The word Aacharya means Spritual Perceptor.Arya means one who is Noble.The word Arya was culturally and never used racially as propounded by the supported by the Pseudo historians who impose the myth of Aryan Invasion Theory.There never existed races called Aryan and Drividian these words were used only culturally.Even the Tamil Iyengar Brahmins had their name Arya for time immorial.As I stated in my article earlier which was not approved in this group, Therewas Vedic civilization worldover in ancient times.And even the Greek Civilization Peruvian Civilization, Maya civilization, Chi9nese civilization were are the offshoot of Vedic civilization.And most importantly, at home, the Indus Valley civilization was a Vedic civilization.There is ample evidence for these.All languages of the earth originated from the one language the Vedic Language which had no name but was called AARYA.It had many scripts from which all the scripts of the world evolved.Though the scripts were different the language was same which is ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> Histo-Cultural Phonetics Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 10:33 AM  Those and these are my personal idea based view points and are non revisionist, non reformist, non exhaustive, non conclusive. I do not dispute any other view points. I accept them more because i enjoy heritage sciences. i love, expertise. idea no. 1 and idea no. 2 as suggestive of idea No. X to N ............ ....constitutes Histo-Cultural Phonetics ? Possibly, the oldest yet phonetically nearest to 'Raya' is the Pharaoic pronouncement 'Ra' (sun god and also the taurus-bull) . Some or few Pharaoh(s) have been mentioned as Ra. The term 'Rajan' is of much later coinage ? See : Chotaraya, Sundaraya, Routaraya, Samantaraya, Kalingaraya, etc......... ......... ......... (only) Raya, (these are all family titles of sword bearing martial classes, called as Khandaits, very much vogue in present day Orissa)......Raya- Mahapatra, Raya Ramananda .....etc., are gubernatorial ...while Bhramarabara- Raya-Mahapatra is a title of a c-in-c of the erstwhile kalingiya imperial Gajapati era. Many among these Rayas had travelled as body guards, et.al., along with princes Sanghamitra. Even to this day in Singhala they are noted. Life style is said to be that of Khandaits as in Orissa-this day. Do not mislead yourself. I have deleberately coloured it to trigger thinking. The real component is Raya. The syllable a in a-raya is part of the consonant that precedes and folows it i.e. it is part of the fore part which is a verb and can also be a part of the terminal part which is a noun. We may see the phone arya is embossed in to the phone a-raya. May the reader note 'ra', 'ra', 'ra', all over, in all the terms as in the phone 'Prakrit'. 'Ra' hides more then it reveals. What is that ? if 'ra' is picked out from any of the phones of the Raya series, the ethos, concept and delivery swivels. If any other segment is picked out, so much swerve do not occur. The presence of 'ra' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a official position. What about poor Bhatta-ch-arya (scholar-the- noble/great ?) ? The Aryas that you all are looking for (and thought to have apparently gone missing), is possibly here !! .......Rangacharya, Tripitakacharya, Paramacharya, Sankaracharya, Vedacharya, Vedantacharya, Srinivasacharya, etc,........ ...Acharya (great/noble/ refined -being), and off course Bhatta-ch-arya ! Wow quite a tribe ! These chaps are a different lot from the Rayas ? The Raya yeilds the sword, the Arya yeilds the stylus. if 'ar' is picked out from any of the phones of the Arya series, the ethos, concept and delivery also swivels. The presence of 'ar' makes the delivery as an allusion to person or to a socio-cultural position/expertise. The notion of nobleness or greatnes arises out of experitse (physical and/or mental). Hence, Rayas and Aryas. These Rayas and Aryas are not Bhutanus (bacterians), nor Kusanas ( grasslanders) , neither Yavans (gallic-helenic) . There is no iota of suggestion in Hindu tradition (hope time bears me out) that at any point of time any of the members of the Bhutanus, Kusanas or Yavans ever got the title of any sort of Acharya or even Raya. So, neither Kingship nor Scholarship got imported into the Indian sub-continent (as an instatenous injection, bolus or fractional in some undermined past). The joy of the topic Rayas and Aryas is all embeded and sub-merged. Researching it may require highly organised, abelised, multi-disciplinary, multi-lateral, well focused, long scope effort. I certainly fall short. this may be of help to us ~ 1 - A.E . Wallis Budge, History of Egypt , Anthro Publications, Netherlands , 1902. 2 - J.N.Bannerjee, Development of Hindu Iconography, Munshiram Manoharlal, 1956, Delhi. 3 - K. N. Mahapatra, Khordha Itihas (Odiya). 4 - M.N.Das, Military History of Orissa ?? 5 - D. Bhattacharya, 2 articles awaiting publication Others...... ......... . The above constitues Theoretical History. Warm Regards, for not taking offense at model idea and for not belting out any either. db Dr. Deepak Bhattacharya C/o Radha Krishna Kedar Gouri Road Bhubaneswar- 751002 NOTE : Even regarding the phone pair 'Deepak Bhattacharya' , there are at least penta in this city, (i) this simpleton (ii) sanskritist (iii) photo journalist (iv) banker/accountant (v) in judicail custody. Oh ! could make good census in the whole of the sub-continent. - h.padmanabaiah nagarajaiah Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:02 PM Re: My rejoinder Shravanabelagola The etymology of the place name Shravanabelagola is as follows; It is a compound word consisting of three components-- Shravana means Jaina monk.It is a Sanskrit word and becomes samaNa and savaNa in Prakrit without any change in its meaning. The second part of the Compound word is bel ( from the root vel), which means white, pure etc.Vel / bel is a Kannada word and belongs to the Dravidian Family of Languages. The third part of the compound word is gola( from kola), which means pond. kola / gola is a Kannada word. Thus the place name Shravanabelagola has three units consisting of one Sanskrit and two Kannada words. The meaning of the place name Shravanabelagola is ' white pond of Jaina monks'. Even today there is big pond in the centre of the town. It is an ancient historical place of greater significance in the Country. The word Raya is from Sanskrit Rajan which means a king.Rajan takes the form of arasan in Kannada and Tamil. It also takes the form of raya, rao, raj in many Indian languages. Prof. Hampa. Nagarajaiah--- On Sun, 12/10/08, ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> wrote: ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> My rejoinderSunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:38 PM - "ODDISILAB" <oddisilab1 (AT) dataone (DOT) in> "Ashok Aklujkar" <ashok.aklujkar@ ubc.ca> Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:47 PM Re: Raya, Rai > Thank you.> > These are My personal view point.> > Now point no. 1 - Kharavela is a acronym of 2 odiya terms Khara > (Bright/Schorching Sun), and Bela (time/period) .> > e.g. (Karnataka-Mahavira ) ~ Sravana Vela Ghola ? Sravana = season. Bela > = occassion. Ghola= the curd mix / butter milk [spring time butter milk > festival]. Phones and phrases of pre grammar periods.> > The prefix Aira = is certainly Prakrit. The script is Brahmi. It is likely > that it denotes Raya (as in Krishna Deva Raya).> Krishna is the call name, Deva is the divine equal sense make, Raya = the > great nobel/leader -> Therefore, Krishna the God like Title holder of all properties ?> > What does such a Raya have ?> > Among others he has Royats/Rayats (revenue paying farmers).> > And what do such Royats do // OR why such term at all ?> > They till/manage the Rai (medenin/soil) ! for and behalf of the Raya ?> > One political state to have one Raya (at any one time ) ?> No. He divides his powers to various profession types of Rayas, various > ranks of Rayas = The wider the distribution pattern the higher sits the apex > Raya =Deva Raya [God alike Nobel(ity)].> > Thank you> > Deepak -- Bhalchandra G. ThatteyShubham BhavatuSvalpasya Yogasya Trayate Mahato Bhayat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Dear Koenraad, No, in RV Skt too, and that's where Dravidian borrowed it. It's related to Latin " alius " , whence English " alien " . Whence in Skt. the word Arya with short " a " , as in the theonym " Aryaman " , " other- minded " , " stranger-minded " , " hospitable, altruistic " . It was Paul Thieme's little idea that " Arya " with long a, the form that denoted the " Aryans " , was also derived from this. He may have had ideological compulsions, being a German working under and just after Nazism, to turn the Aryans into something else than selfish racists, viz. altruistic xenophiles. Thieme's etymology has been generally rejected. We already discussed the more likely etymology here on this list, viz. " fellow tribesman " , as attested in Anatolian along with Indo-Iranian. Why are you suddenly ignoring this?I am not ignoring the earlier discussions made. I am only contemplating the earliest meaning of Arya, for which possibly there is no answer. If Ari denotes the other (or more hostilely, enemy) and Mana denotes us, then AIT to some extent stands. I understood your apprehensions. since as such I have proposed my own brand of AIT , with Aryans comprosing of only Warrior tribes came from Mesopatomia where the great flood took place. In all probablitity, this exodus took place to South India, where the Indra tribe learnt agriculture and usage of iron to proceed to Sindhu area, for further incursions with Asuric Brahmins. In my RV index, I don't find " manava " . Could you give the reference?The word must be Manasvant Kindly refer II.12.2 etc. > The Arya tribes were of course Manava tribes themselves, their founders Puru and Anu being descendents of Manu.I am trying to differentiate between the lineage of Swayam bhu Manu (which refers to original Manu, the " we " , aborigines to British India) and Vaivasvata Manu, the other , the descendants of " Aryan " warrior tribes. Hope this finds some support.best regards, Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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