Fwd: [Ind-Arch] The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

November 5, 2008

---------- Forwarded message ----------

ymalaiya <ymalaiya

Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:28:36 -0000

[ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India

-(south)western location

IndiaArchaeology

The Heliodorus inscription of Vidisha mentions Yavanas ruling

Takshasila.

Devadevasa Va [sude]vasa Garudadhvajo ayam karito i[a] Heliodorena

bhaga- vatena Diyasa putrena Takhasilakena Yonadatena agatena maharajasa

Amtalikitasa upa[m]ta samkasam-rano Kasiput[r]asa [bh]agabhadrasa

tratarasa vasena [chatu]dasena rajena vadhamanasa "

Manusmriti 10:44 corresponds to some of the Mahabharata verses.

pauNDrakaashchauDradraviDaaH kaambojaa yavanaaH shakaaH

[M.puNDrakaashchoDadraviDaaH

paaradaapahlavaashchiinaaH kiraataa daradaaH khashaaH

It suggests Yavanas in the vicinity of Kamboja and Shaka.

Mention of China, Kamboja, Darada (Kashmir region) etc. suggest that the

home of the Yavanas was in the Balkh (Bactria) region. It was in this

region, the earliest known representations of Lords Vasudeva and

Balarama were found.

Yashwant

IndiaArchaeology , " adhin88 " <adhin88 wrote:

>

> LOCATION OF THE YAVANAS

> There are 5 Shlokas which give information on the location of the

> Yavanas. Three are clearly in the west, a 4th can be deduced without

> problems to be in the west and the fifth is the Shantiparva reference

> in Uttarapatha which Himanshu Ray presents as the only one.

>

> Book ii Sabhaparva

> kirâtarâjaH sumanâ yavanâdhipatis tathâ |

> câNûro devarâtash ca bhojo bhîmarathash ca yaH

||b02.c004.v022||

> Sumanas is the king of the Kiratas and likewise the Lord of the

> Yavanas

> is Chanura Devarata and Bhimaratha, who is the Bhoja (king) .

>

> NOTE: The Yavanadhipati Chanura Devarata is named in the Shloka

> together with Sumanas the Kirata king and Bhimaratha the Bhoja

> (Yadava). This Shloka gives the boundaries: the east has Sumanas the

> Kirata, the south has Bhimaratha the king of Bhojas and the west has

> Chanura Devarata. Another explanation may be: Yavanas in the Southern

> Indus, Bhoja Yadavas in the Middle Indus and Kiratas in the Northern

> Indus. The third explanation may be that all three are in the

> south/southwest! The Kiratas in the west is supported by the

> Vanaparva, see below.

>

> muram ca narakam caiva shâsti yo yavanâdhipau |

> aparyantabalo râjâ pratîcyâm varuno yathâ

||b02.c013.v013||

> bhagadatto mahârâja vrddhas tava pituh sakhâ |

> sa vâcâ pranatas tasya karmanâ caiva bhârata

||b02.c013.v014||

> That king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka,whose

> power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, is

> King Bhagadatta, who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed his

> head (before Jarasandha), by speech and specially by act, O Bharata.

>

> NOTE: The Yavanadhipati Bhagadatta, ruled clearly in the southwest

> like another Varuna (deity of the oceanic west). We are definitely in

> the southern Indus and Baluchistan.

>

> Book iii Vanaparva

> pashcimâni ca râjyâni shatashaH sâgarântikân |

> pahlavân daradân sarvân kirâtân yavanâM shakân

||b03.c048.v020||

> and all the kings of the West by hundreds, and all the chiefs of the

> sea-coast,

> the kings of the Pahlavas and the Daradas and the various tribes of

> the Kiratas and Yavanas and Sakras

>

> NOTE: The Yavanas are here definitely in the west (pashcima) at the

> sea-coast (sagarantika). It is amazing to see here Daradas, perhaps

> Paradas should be the correcter reading. We are definitely in the

> southern Indus and Baluchistan. Are Kiratas a hint to tribal people

> there?

>

> Book vi Bhishmaparva

> uttarâsh câpare mlecchâ janâ

bharatasattama||b06.c010.v063cd||

> yavanâsh ca sakâmbojâ dâruNâ mlecchajâtayaH |

> sakSHaddruhaH kuntalâsh ca hûNâH pâratakaiH saha

||b06.c010.v064||

> Among the tribes of the north and west are other Mleccha tribes, O

> best of the Bharatas;

> the Yavanas, the Chinas, the Kamvojas, the Darunas, and many Mleccha

> tribes;

> the Sukritvahas, the Kulatthas, the Hunas, and the Parasikas;

>

> NOTE: The text says uttaraash ca-apare = (tribes of the) north and

> west. Yavanas in the west is in agreement with the previous Shlokas.

> The first line of Shloka 64 indicates that the Yavanas together with

> Kambojas are terrifying/terrific Jatis of Mlecchas. (Having an apa-

> bhrashta culture and language: broken away, from the

> mainstream). But they still are in the west = ápara mf(aa)n. (fr.

> ápa), posterior, later, latter (opposed to puúrva; often in

> comp.);western.

>

> Shantiparva 200.12 uses the word Uttaraapatha-janmaanaH for the

> enumerated Ganas. But it doesn't denote the northwest. Uttaraapatha

> is not the Northern Path from the Gangetic to Taxila and beyond,

> because none of the Gangetic are mentioned. Uttaraapatha (northern)

> must be seen as contrasted to Dakshinapatha (southern). Yavanas,

> Kambojas, Gandharas are to be placed from Southwest to northwest in

> the Uttarapatha, which must be a western traderoute in the north from

> the Indusmouth to Taxila or Gandhara. The Kiratas (southwest) and

> Barbaras (northwest) are added in the Shloka.

>

> Thus, all the five Shlokas of the Mahabharata giving the location of

> the Yavanas, point almost unanimously Yavana Janapada or Adhipatya in

> the west, in the southern Indus and adjoining areas to the westbank

> in the Mahabharata.

> This again, besides all the other varied internal evidences and set

> against the paucity of data to assumptions to the contrary, proofs

> the Yavanas to be an indigenous tribe.

>

> regards,

> Ishwa

>

November 5, 2008

Manusmrti 10.44 must be seen, besides the logical explanation that it describes the Ganas immediately surrounding the central areas of India, also the information contained in the Shlokas immediately preceding leading to this enemuration.

Manu describes what the issue is about these enumerated Ganas immediately surrounding the central Ganas.

Manusmrti chapter X The preceding Shlokas

sankare jaatayas tv etaaH pitrmaatrpradarshitaaH |prachannaa vaa prakaashaa vaa veditavyaaH svakarmabhiH ||MS X.40||These Jatis, (which originate) in a fusion (of the Jatis with the Varnas and) have been described according to their fathers and mothers, may be known by their occupations, whether they conceal or openly show themselves.svajaatijaanantarajaaH SHaT sutaa dvijadharmiNaH |shuudraaNaaM tu sadharmaaNaH sarve 'padhvaMsajaaH smrtaaH || MS X.41||Six sons, begotten (by Aryas) on women of equal and the next lower Jatis (Anantara), have the duties of twice-born men; but all those born in consequence of a violation (of the law) are, as regards their duties, equal to Shudras.

tapobiijaprabhaavais tu te gacchanti yuge yuge |utkarSHaM caapakarSHaM ca manuSHyeSHv iha janmata|| MS X.42||By the power of austerities and of the seed (from which they sprang), these (Jatis) obtain here among men more exalted or lower rank in successive births.shanakais tu kriyaalopaad imaaH kSHatriyajaatayaH |vrSHalatvaM gataa loke braahmaNaadarshanena ca || MS X.43||But gradually these Jatis=tribes of Kshatriyas, in consequence of the omission of the sacred rites,and because of not having(seeing) Brahmanas, have moved to the state of Vrshala.

Manusmrti, like the corresponding verses of the Mahabharata, clearly describes the condition of the Ganas gradually moving from Kshatriya-tva towards Vrshala-tva. Manu adds that these previously Kshatriyas moved towards being reclassified as Shudras.

Manu clearly speaks of Jatis. The Lawmaker wants to put these former Kshatriya Jatis fallen to Vrshalatva (reminding us of what happened to Vratyas) into the Varna system.

regards.

Ishwa

-

Isha

Cc: IndiaArchaeology

Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:05 PM

Re: Fwd: [ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

Dear Yashwant,

The problem with the Yavana issue is always the time frame and the location. But you are wrong that Manusmrti X and the corresponding Mahabharata verses suggests a vicinity in Balkh.

Yavana = not Balkh in Indian texts

Kambojas are clearly placed, besides in the northwest also in the west! shakaanaaM pahlavaanaaM ca daradaanaaM ca ye nrpaaH ||kaambojaa rShikaa ye ca pashcimaanuupakaashcha ye || (Udyogaparva 4.15)

Now, when did Kambojas feature in the west, in the riverbank areas of India in Indo-Greek times? Leaving that aside, MS X clearly refers to to Yavanas in the west like this corresponding verse of the Mahabharata, see the logic of the MS below.

However, I cannot see how Yavana is in Balkh with any imagination. What does MS X really state, forgetting any pre-composed identity of Yavana-Bactria? Firstly, Yavana in the text is nowhere mentioned amongst Bahlikas, does it! The word China is misleading. Is it referring to Chinese or rather to Shinas (variant Tshina), a Gana belonging to the Dardic group? Secondly, what is the logic behind MS X's enumeration? The enumeration starts in the east (Paundraka), moves to the southeast Odra), south (Dravida), and then proceeds to the west (Kamboja-Yavana-Shaka-Parada=Pahlava). Finally it enumerates the northern, the Himalayan Ganas to complete the series (China=Tshina, Kirata-Darada-Khasha) and the circle is round! Where on earth does Balkh feature in the mind of the author?

If one wishes to see Yavanas in Bactria, one will see that. But, not without violating the logic of the texts. In short, neither Manusmrti, nor the Mahabharata do support Yavanas being in Balkh! So far, a negative proof of looking for Yavana=Bactria in Indian texts.

The Heliodorus inscription is from the latter half of the second century. The Raja is Amtalikitasa or Antialcidas. The Indo-Greeks ruled from the Paropamisus to Taxila. His dynasty didn't rule over Bactria! Menander's father had already lost Bactria around 170 BCE. But leaving that aside, these Indo-Greeks were ruling over Sakayavana (see Milindapanha), Gandhara and Taxila.

The Heliodorus inscription doesn't mention that Yavanas were ruling Taxila, but that Raja Antialcidas had a Yonadata Heliodorus.

Yavanas ruling Taxila? The translation "Heliodoros, the son of Dion, a man of Taxila, sent by the Great Greek (Yona) King Antialkidas, as ambassador" on for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliodorus_pillar is clearly wrong. There is nowhere in the text "the great Greek/Yona king" or maha yonaraja. Maharaja means king. Yona is not placed before the name of Antialcidas, which is wishful thinking and totally ungrammatic. Antialcidas is here not called Yonaraja or Yonamaharaja, but simply maharaja! In the Milindapanha, his predecessor, the greater king Milinda is humbly and simply called Raja and nowhere Yonaraja!Yonadatena in the instrumental case is attached to Heliodorus in the instrumental case!

Besides, the website gives a wrong quote of the ASI. This is what the real tranlation is:

Text A: "This Garuda-standard was made by order of the Bhagavata ……….Heliodoros, the son of Dion, a man of Taxila, a Greek ambassador from King Antialkidas, to King Bhagabhadra, the son of the Princess from Benares, the saviour, while prospering in the fourteenth year of his reign." (On the other side of the pillar the following inscription is found:-)

Text B: "Three are the steps to immortality which ………… followed lead to heaven, [namely] self-control, self-denial and watchfulness."

Archaeological Survey of India, Annual Report (1908-1909). Calcutta: Superintendent of Government Printing, 1912, 129.

The ASI clearly and rightly places Yona with Heliodorus! But, it translates Yona as Greek, seen against the wrong equation Yavana=Greek of those times.

This is what to text says:

"Devadevasa Va [sude]vasa Garudadhvajo ayam"This (ayam) Garuda-standard (Garudadhvajo) of Vasudeva (Vasudevasa), the God of Gods (Devadevasa)karito i[a] Heliodorena bhagavatena Diyasa putrena Takhasilakena Yonadatena agatena was erected (karito) here (ia) by the devotee (bhagavata), son of Dion (Diyasa putrena), a man of Taxila (Takhasilakena), a Yonadatamaharajasa Amtalikitasa ...

of king Antialcidas (maharajasa Amtalikitasa) sent to (agatena) ...

Yonadata attached to Heliodorus indicates his etnicity. Yonadata is read as Yonaduta. He was sent to Bhagabhadra to erect the Garudadhvaja in the latter's kingdom, which doesn't mean per se that Heliodorus was an ambassador, but one could better see in him an architect/artisan. Ambassadors rather exchange other formalities.

But even if king Antialcidas had sent Heliodorus, the extra word ambassador is not needed to imply that someone was sent officially (in the function of an ambassador).

The Yonadutena interpretation as per ASI gives (by Heliodorus the) Yona(ka) ambassador (of king Antialcidas). The last meaning neatly placed before the genitive maharajasa Amtalikitasa (mahaaraajasya Amtalikitasya).

It is clear that the etnicity of Heliodorus is Yona(ka), he is from Yonanam (a word used in the Milindapanha) or Yona Janapada (Pali works and Piyadassi inscription of Kandahar, thus here also not Bactria). He has a Greek name, which points to culturo-political influence.

On the contrary, with regards to the etnicity of Antialcidas, his name is not coupled to the ethnonym Yona, as it was neither to Menander in the Milindapanha! Menander ruled over Yonanam = the country (Janapada) Yona. Also in this case in this time, Yonanam is not (!) Bactria, which was out of his reach.

One must understand this clearly: No Indo-Greek kings called themselves Yona or Yavana, nowhere on any coin, etc., as far as I know Even if it did, one has to look for it within the Yona Janapada context. The designation, then must come from the Indian natives. But, it is these natives who nowhere equate Yavanas or Yonas with Indo-Greeks.

And, Yavana or Yona country is never in Bactria. A lot of wishful thinking based upon a wrong equation of Yavana=Greek gives a forceful interpretation of the Indian textplaces concerning Yavanas.

regards,

Ishwa

-

Kishore patnaik

Wednesday, November 05, 2008 4:47 PM

Fwd: [ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

---------- Forwarded message ----------ymalaiya <ymalaiya >Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:28:36 -0000[ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India-(south)western locationIndiaArchaeology The Heliodorus inscription of Vidisha mentions Yavanas rulingTakshasila.Devadevasa Va [sude]vasa Garudadhvajo ayam karito i[a] Heliodorenabhaga- vatena Diyasa putrena Takhasilakena Yonadatena agatena maharajasaAmtalikitasa upa[m]ta samkasam-rano Kasiput[r]asa [bh]agabhadrasatratarasa vasena [chatu]dasena rajena vadhamanasa"Manusmriti 10:44 corresponds to some of the Mahabharata verses.pauNDrakaashchauDradraviDaaH kaambojaa yavanaaH shakaaH[M.puNDrakaashchoDadraviDaaHpaaradaapahlavaashchiinaaH kiraataa daradaaH khashaaHIt suggests Yavanas in the vicinity of Kamboja and Shaka.Mention of China, Kamboja, Darada (Kashmir region) etc. suggest that thehome of the Yavanas was in the Balkh (Bactria) region. It was in thisregion, the earliest known representations of Lords Vasudeva andBalarama were found.YashwantIndiaArchaeology , "adhin88" <adhin88 wrote:>> LOCATION OF THE YAVANAS> There are 5 Shlokas which give information on the location of the> Yavanas. Three are clearly in the west, a 4th can be deduced without> problems to be in the west and the fifth is the Shantiparva reference> in Uttarapatha which Himanshu Ray presents as the only one.>> Book ii Sabhaparva> kirâtarâjaH sumanâ yavanâdhipatis tathâ |> câNûro devarâtash ca bhojo bhîmarathash ca yaH||b02.c004.v022||> Sumanas is the king of the Kiratas and likewise the Lord of the> Yavanas> is Chanura Devarata and Bhimaratha, who is the Bhoja (king) .>> NOTE: The Yavanadhipati Chanura Devarata is named in the Shloka> together with Sumanas the Kirata king and Bhimaratha the Bhoja> (Yadava). This Shloka gives the boundaries: the east has Sumanas the> Kirata, the south has Bhimaratha the king of Bhojas and the west has> Chanura Devarata. Another explanation may be: Yavanas in the Southern> Indus, Bhoja Yadavas in the Middle Indus and Kiratas in the Northern> Indus. The third explanation may be that all three are in the> south/southwest! The Kiratas in the west is supported by the> Vanaparva, see below.>> muram ca narakam caiva shâsti yo yavanâdhipau |> aparyantabalo râjâ pratîcyâm varuno yathâ||b02.c013.v013||> bhagadatto mahârâja vrddhas tava pituh sakhâ |> sa vâcâ pranatas tasya karmanâ caiva bhârata||b02.c013.v014||> That king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka,whose> power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, is> King Bhagadatta, who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed his> head (before Jarasandha), by speech and specially by act, O Bharata.>> NOTE: The Yavanadhipati Bhagadatta, ruled clearly in the southwest> like another Varuna (deity of the oceanic west). We are definitely in> the southern Indus and Baluchistan.>> Book iii Vanaparva> pashcimâni ca râjyâni shatashaH sâgarântikân |> pahlavân daradân sarvân kirâtân yavanâM shakân||b03.c048.v020||> and all the kings of the West by hundreds, and all the chiefs of the> sea-coast,> the kings of the Pahlavas and the Daradas and the various tribes of> the Kiratas and Yavanas and Sakras>> NOTE: The Yavanas are here definitely in the west (pashcima) at the> sea-coast (sagarantika). It is amazing to see here Daradas, perhaps> Paradas should be the correcter reading. We are definitely in the> southern Indus and Baluchistan. Are Kiratas a hint to tribal people> there?>> Book vi Bhishmaparva> uttarâsh câpare mlecchâ janâbharatasattama||b06.c010.v063cd||> yavanâsh ca sakâmbojâ dâruNâ mlecchajâtayaH |> sakSHaddruhaH kuntalâsh ca hûNâH pâratakaiH saha||b06.c010.v064||> Among the tribes of the north and west are other Mleccha tribes, O> best of the Bharatas;> the Yavanas, the Chinas, the Kamvojas, the Darunas, and many Mleccha> tribes;> the Sukritvahas, the Kulatthas, the Hunas, and the Parasikas;>> NOTE: The text says uttaraash ca-apare = (tribes of the) north and> west. Yavanas in the west is in agreement with the previous Shlokas.> The first line of Shloka 64 indicates that the Yavanas together with> Kambojas are terrifying/terrific Jatis of Mlecchas. (Having an apa-> bhrashta culture and language: broken away, from the> mainstream). But they still are in the west = ápara mf(aa)n. (fr.> ápa), posterior, later, latter (opposed to puúrva; often in> comp.);western.>> Shantiparva 200.12 uses the word Uttaraapatha-janmaanaH for the> enumerated Ganas. But it doesn't denote the northwest. Uttaraapatha> is not the Northern Path from the Gangetic to Taxila and beyond,> because none of the Gangetic are mentioned. Uttaraapatha (northern)> must be seen as contrasted to Dakshinapatha (southern). Yavanas,> Kambojas, Gandharas are to be placed from Southwest to northwest in> the Uttarapatha, which must be a western traderoute in the north from> the Indusmouth to Taxila or Gandhara. The Kiratas (southwest) and> Barbaras (northwest) are added in the Shloka.>> Thus, all the five Shlokas of the Mahabharata giving the location of> the Yavanas, point almost unanimously Yavana Janapada or Adhipatya in> the west, in the southern Indus and adjoining areas to the westbank> in the Mahabharata.> This again, besides all the other varied internal evidences and set> against the paucity of data to assumptions to the contrary, proofs> the Yavanas to be an indigenous tribe.>> regards,> Ishwa>

November 6, 2008

I may be having photographs of the Heliodorus pillar & remains that are around

db

-

Kishore patnaik

Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:17 PM

Fwd: [ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

---------- Forwarded message ----------ymalaiya <ymalaiya >Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:28:36 -0000[ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India-(south)western locationIndiaArchaeology The Heliodorus inscription of Vidisha mentions Yavanas rulingTakshasila.Devadevasa Va [sude]vasa Garudadhvajo ayam karito i[a] Heliodorenabhaga- vatena Diyasa putrena Takhasilakena Yonadatena agatena maharajasaAmtalikitasa upa[m]ta samkasam-rano Kasiput[r]asa [bh]agabhadrasatratarasa vasena [chatu]dasena rajena vadhamanasa"Manusmriti 10:44 corresponds to some of the Mahabharata verses.pauNDrakaashchauDradraviDaaH kaambojaa yavanaaH shakaaH[M.puNDrakaashchoDadraviDaaHpaaradaapahlavaashchiinaaH kiraataa daradaaH khashaaHIt suggests Yavanas in the vicinity of Kamboja and Shaka.Mention of China, Kamboja, Darada (Kashmir region) etc. suggest that thehome of the Yavanas was in the Balkh (Bactria) region. It was in thisregion, the earliest known representations of Lords Vasudeva andBalarama were found.YashwantIndiaArchaeology , "adhin88" <adhin88 wrote:>> LOCATION OF THE YAVANAS> There are 5 Shlokas which give information on the location of the> Yavanas. Three are clearly in the west, a 4th can be deduced without> problems to be in the west and the fifth is the Shantiparva reference> in Uttarapatha which Himanshu Ray presents as the only one.>> Book ii Sabhaparva> kirâtarâjaH sumanâ yavanâdhipatis tathâ |> câNûro devarâtash ca bhojo bhîmarathash ca yaH||b02.c004.v022||> Sumanas is the king of the Kiratas and likewise the Lord of the> Yavanas> is Chanura Devarata and Bhimaratha, who is the Bhoja (king) .>> NOTE: The Yavanadhipati Chanura Devarata is named in the Shloka> together with Sumanas the Kirata king and Bhimaratha the Bhoja> (Yadava). This Shloka gives the boundaries: the east has Sumanas the> Kirata, the south has Bhimaratha the king of Bhojas and the west has> Chanura Devarata. Another explanation may be: Yavanas in the Southern> Indus, Bhoja Yadavas in the Middle Indus and Kiratas in the Northern> Indus. The third explanation may be that all three are in the> south/southwest! The Kiratas in the west is supported by the> Vanaparva, see below.>> muram ca narakam caiva shâsti yo yavanâdhipau |> aparyantabalo râjâ pratîcyâm varuno yathâ||b02.c013.v013||> bhagadatto mahârâja vrddhas tava pituh sakhâ |> sa vâcâ pranatas tasya karmanâ caiva bhârata||b02.c013.v014||> That king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka,whose> power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, is> King Bhagadatta, who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed his> head (before Jarasandha), by speech and specially by act, O Bharata.>> NOTE: The Yavanadhipati Bhagadatta, ruled clearly in the southwest> like another Varuna (deity of the oceanic west). We are definitely in> the southern Indus and Baluchistan.>> Book iii Vanaparva> pashcimâni ca râjyâni shatashaH sâgarântikân |> pahlavân daradân sarvân kirâtân yavanâM shakân||b03.c048.v020||> and all the kings of the West by hundreds, and all the chiefs of the> sea-coast,> the kings of the Pahlavas and the Daradas and the various tribes of> the Kiratas and Yavanas and Sakras>> NOTE: The Yavanas are here definitely in the west (pashcima) at the> sea-coast (sagarantika). It is amazing to see here Daradas, perhaps> Paradas should be the correcter reading. We are definitely in the> southern Indus and Baluchistan. Are Kiratas a hint to tribal people> there?>> Book vi Bhishmaparva> uttarâsh câpare mlecchâ janâbharatasattama||b06.c010.v063cd||> yavanâsh ca sakâmbojâ dâruNâ mlecchajâtayaH |> sakSHaddruhaH kuntalâsh ca hûNâH pâratakaiH saha||b06.c010.v064||> Among the tribes of the north and west are other Mleccha tribes, O> best of the Bharatas;> the Yavanas, the Chinas, the Kamvojas, the Darunas, and many Mleccha> tribes;> the Sukritvahas, the Kulatthas, the Hunas, and the Parasikas;>> NOTE: The text says uttaraash ca-apare = (tribes of the) north and> west. Yavanas in the west is in agreement with the previous Shlokas.> The first line of Shloka 64 indicates that the Yavanas together with> Kambojas are terrifying/terrific Jatis of Mlecchas. (Having an apa-> bhrashta culture and language: broken away, from the> mainstream). But they still are in the west = ápara mf(aa)n. (fr.> ápa), posterior, later, latter (opposed to puúrva; often in> comp.);western.>> Shantiparva 200.12 uses the word Uttaraapatha-janmaanaH for the> enumerated Ganas. But it doesn't denote the northwest. Uttaraapatha> is not the Northern Path from the Gangetic to Taxila and beyond,> because none of the Gangetic are mentioned. Uttaraapatha (northern)> must be seen as contrasted to Dakshinapatha (southern). Yavanas,> Kambojas, Gandharas are to be placed from Southwest to northwest in> the Uttarapatha, which must be a western traderoute in the north from> the Indusmouth to Taxila or Gandhara. The Kiratas (southwest) and> Barbaras (northwest) are added in the Shloka.>> Thus, all the five Shlokas of the Mahabharata giving the location of> the Yavanas, point almost unanimously Yavana Janapada or Adhipatya in> the west, in the southern Indus and adjoining areas to the westbank> in the Mahabharata.> This again, besides all the other varied internal evidences and set> against the paucity of data to assumptions to the contrary, proofs> the Yavanas to be an indigenous tribe.>> regards,> Ishwa>

November 6, 2008

THE PILLAR LOCALLY IS KNOWN AS 'KHAMBA BABA' . It is very close (north) to Vidisha, which is also famous for Sanchi Stupa (South ), Gupta era caves and Ananta Sayii Vishnu (west) and off cource best quality wheat (lingering taste). Vidisha important heritage almost alike Bhubaneswar (off hand reports).

The Fan Palm (Broasus flabeliflora ?) is known as Tala-dhwaja (hoisted fan palm).

Noted iconographer J.N.Bannerjee, it appears has identified the Tala dhwaja with Sri Vasudeva Krishna.

I think ( i had also read) the inscription also mentions that Heliodorus was a faithful of Sri Vasudeva.

The phone pair (Tala-dhwaja) connote - an apex signature.

In eastern India it is the signature of Balavadhra (Puri) i.e., Lord Siva's aspect. Lord Balavadra's (annual) Chariot at Puri is known as Tala dhwaja. It is the lead vehicle in the annual Dharma vijaya parade known as Ghosa Jatra (resonant sojourn).

Chariot festival is held on the 2nd day of lunar (waxing) phase of June (Asadha sukla dwitiya).

All the 3 chariots have on them, at top on all four sides embossed images of a palm tree, the art motif i think represents more Cocos nucifera (nadia-narikel).

In Odiya lingua the Borasus is known as Tala (so also in Bangla, Ahamia, Maithili, etc.).

Re - Photos i have to check up- my print stock.

To learn more about Puri & Lord Jagannath, charriots, etc., one may contact my Sr. partner in Research (the immensely erudite) Shri Sarat Ch. Mahapatra, Ex. Administrator, Sri Jagannath Temple, Puri ( a Sr. Cl-I Officer), C/o Sri Jagannatha Research Centre, Talabania, Puri, 06752-0-9238588122.

The best time to visit Orissa and heritage remains is from 15th Nov to 30 Jan.

Dr. D. Bhattacharya,

-

Katherine Brobeck

Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:52 PM

Re: Fwd: [ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

Dear Kishore & db,I also have a photo of the Heliodorus Pillar, and of thefan-palm capital lying at the foot of a great tree nearby.That palm was Balarama's cognizance wasn't it?If you'd like to see them, how would I send youthe photos ?If 'db' also has some, I'd really like to see his too.Kathie B.

November 10, 2008

Repeated

-

ODDISILAB

Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:48 PM

Re: Fwd: [ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

THE PILLAR LOCALLY IS KNOWN AS 'KHAMBA BABA' . It is very close (north) to Vidisha, which is also famous for Sanchi Stupa (South ), Gupta era caves and Ananta Sayii Vishnu (west) and off cource best quality wheat (lingering taste). Vidisha important heritage almost alike Bhubaneswar (off hand reports).

The Fan Palm (Broasus flabeliflora ?) is known as Tala-dhwaja (hoisted fan palm).

Noted iconographer J.N.Bannerjee, it appears has identified the Tala dhwaja with Sri Vasudeva Krishna.

I think ( i had also read) the inscription also mentions that Heliodorus was a faithful of Sri Vasudeva.

The phone pair (Tala-dhwaja) connote - an apex signature.

In eastern India it is the signature of Balavadhra (Puri) i.e., Lord Siva's aspect. Lord Balavadra's (annual) Chariot at Puri is known as Tala dhwaja. It is the lead vehicle in the annual Dharma vijaya parade known as Ghosa Jatra (resonant sojourn).

Chariot festival is held on the 2nd day of lunar (waxing) phase of June (Asadha sukla dwitiya).

All the 3 chariots have on them, at top on all four sides embossed images of a palm tree, the art motif i think represents more Cocos nucifera (nadia-narikel).

In Odiya lingua the Borasus is known as Tala (so also in Bangla, Ahamia, Maithili, etc.).

Re - Photos i have to check up- my print stock.

To learn more about Puri & Lord Jagannath, charriots, etc., one may contact my Sr. partner in Research (the immensely erudite) Shri Sarat Ch. Mahapatra, Ex. Administrator, Sri Jagannath Temple, Puri ( a Sr. Cl-I Officer), C/o Sri Jagannatha Research Centre, Talabania, Puri, 06752-0-9238588122.

The best time to visit Orissa and heritage remains is from 15th Nov to 30 Jan.

Dr. D. Bhattacharya,

-

Katherine Brobeck

Thursday, November 06, 2008 5:52 PM

Re: Fwd: [ind-Arch] Re: The Yavana Presence in Ancient India -(south)western location

Dear Kishore & db,I also have a photo of the Heliodorus Pillar, and of thefan-palm capital lying at the foot of a great tree nearby.That palm was Balarama's cognizance wasn't it?If you'd like to see them, how would I send youthe photos ?If 'db' also has some, I'd really like to see his too.Kathie B.