Jesus Christ (reply to Kishore)

November 24, 2008

Dear Kishore,

I think you are not up to date on Biblical confirmations like I am not up to par on Vedic histrocity. You said:> > While I do not altogether deny the historical existence of Jesus Christ, I> > feel he was only a small time prophet, with out any of the elements of the> > Bible really present in him.

For a small-time prophet, he hasn't done too badly! He has attracted over 1/3 of the world's population who are now Chrisitians, and it is still the fastest growing religion in the world today (in spite of Islam's claims to the contrary).

> > The elements of biblical borrowings from various religions especially from> > Indian and Iranian religious stables- the origin, the childhood stories, the> > miracles, the teachings- have bestowed a larger than life image to Jesus.

These stories do exist in most all world religions and mythologies...but did you ever consider that they may be common enough occurances that every religion identified with the experiences because every religion had these direct experiences? Who said they had to be a one-off event?

Take the story of the great flood...there were many lands that were flooded, and many people displaced around the world..> >> > The Bible could not have been earlier than 4th Century A. D., when it has> > grown into more or less the present form.

There were many first hand witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus who wrote outside the cannonical books. For example Flavius Josephus, the historian, and Saint Thomas, who left a rich legacy of literature in India that is now part of most every Thomas-Assyrian church in the world.> >> > The main aspect of the historical Christ was the proclamation that he was> > the king of Jews, which has turned the local rabbi execute him.

YES! YES! He claimed to be king of the Jews....but what Jews? Where? I suggested in my book that he leading a small tribe of Jews settled in kashmir. There was a power struggle for this throne. The valuable 'Rod of Moses" that indicated kingship was stolen about this time...I believe and stated in my book that this is the real reason behind the entire crucifixion of Jesus...behind the scenes it was a power struggle for Kashmir.

> >> > Once again, the story for crucification, the corner stone of Christianity as> > it stands today, might have been borrowed.

No, I disagree...not 'borrowed' but experienced. An author, Kersey Graves,who is a devout atheist, wrote a book titled "'The World's 16 Crucified Saviors." This book has been sidetracked as totally shoddy research and much fiction, but it does try to make the point that each 'savior' was merely copying the one before. Why would they do this when in all probability they had their own hopes, aspirations, promises, and persecutions to deal with? I am sure that every few generations experienced what could be construed as crucified saviors. In this category, even Joan of Arc is considered a crucified savior.> >> >> > The proclaimed Virgin birth was already known in Iran in pre christian era> > , attributed to Mehr or Mithra of 4th or 3rd C bce and it is also> > attributed to one Himalayan prophet , worshiping Sun and was preaching> > amongst foreigners, as per Bhavishya purana, which could have been written> > sometime in between 1st Century bce to 1st century CE.> >

Why do some people think that there could be only one Immaculate Conception? The Bible mentions nine different immaculate conceptions,. In fact as I recall Sarasvati-Sarah conceived when she was in old age (I recall reading somewhere that she was 90 years old?) This was considered a miraculous birth too). Mother Mary's cousin Elizabeth had a visit from the same messenger who visited Mary. Women got pregnant after these visits (which should serve as a warning to the ladies; if you think you are seeing angels, grab your birth control pills!)

There are many more example both within and outside Biblical sources of mulitple, similar events. Samuel is one of the memorable and miraculous, exotic and extraordinary "birth stories" of the Bible. In the Bible, there are five miraculous birth stories that announce great Biblical characters, grand leaders, and glorious religious personalities. All of these people with miraculous births seem larger than life. In the Old Testament, we begin with Adam and Eve. There are fragments of missing texts found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) that verify and describe the strange birth of Methuselah's son Lamech, who was the father of Noah. Lamech realized immediately that this child (Noah) was "different" and the father became afraid...He had to be assured that Noah was chosen and special and that he, Lamech, should keep the child and raise it as his own (this is similar to the doubts first expressed by Joseph, father of Jesus). We also have the story of Abraham and Sarah who had a miraculous child when they were both over 100 years old.In the New Testament, there is Zechariah and Elizabeth, who were visited by an angel to announce an unexpected conception (John the Baptist). Gabriel also appeared to Mother Mary to inform about the birth of Jesus.

Do you think all these stories were mere copies from previous stories?

Think about the current UFO beliefs: Is this limited to Roswell, New Mexico? Not hardly. Flights and UFO's are recorded in the Bible, in Egypt, in India,(including but not limited to the Rajatarangini) in China where the 9 celestial emperors flew all over the place! Even inRome are written accounts of soldiers seeing strange metallic objects moving across the sky, some even scaring their horses.

So I beg to differ with you about all these being mere "coincidences" or borrowed from each other...I just don't see it that way.

Kindest regards,

Sue

> > The Bible itself proves that all that told in New Testament is not original> > - for eg. the agony of biblical Jesus on the cross is borrowed from Psalm> > 22. While there is nothing that indicates that Psalm 22, which is clearly> > pre christian, is a prophecy, it is often interpreted so, to camouflage the> > fact that the crucifix agony is borrowed.

November 24, 2008

Good and long discourse.. it shows how faithful you are but lamentably,

faith can not be taken for Truth. We are discussing facts and

evidences, not faith and conjectures.

Btw, immaculate conception in the context of birth of Jesus is not

talked about JC at all. It was about Mary, who had a 'pure birth " not a

miraculous one.

Hope you will a[ppreciate the difference.

I don;t mind discussing further.

regards,

Kishore patnaik

On 11/24/08, Suzanne Olsson <suzanne_olsson wrote:

Dear Kishore,

I think you are not up to date on Biblical confirmations like I am not up to par on Vedic histrocity. You said:> > While I do not altogether deny the historical existence of Jesus Christ, I

> > feel he was only a small time prophet, with out any of the elements of the> > Bible really present in him.

For a small-time prophet,

he hasn't done too badly! He has attracted over 1/3 of the world's

population who are now Chrisitians, and it is still the fastest growing

religion in the world today (in spite of Islam's claims to the

contrary).

> > The elements of biblical borrowings from various religions especially from> > Indian and Iranian religious stables- the origin, the childhood stories, the

> > miracles, the teachings- have bestowed a larger than life image to Jesus.

These stories do

exist in most all world religions and mythologies...but did you ever

consider that they may be common enough occurances that every religion

identified with the experiences because every religion had these direct

experiences? Who said they had to be a one-off event?

Take the story of the great flood...there were many lands that were flooded, and many people displaced around the world..> >> > The Bible could not have been earlier than 4th Century A. D., when it has

> > grown into more or less the present form.

There

were many first hand witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus who wrote

outside the cannonical books. For example Flavius Josephus, the

historian, and Saint Thomas, who left a rich legacy of literature in

India that is now part of most every Thomas-Assyrian church in the

world.> >> > The main aspect of the historical Christ was the proclamation that he was> > the king of Jews, which has turned the local rabbi execute him.

YES! YES!

He claimed to be king of the Jews....but what Jews? Where? I suggested

in my book that he leading a small tribe of Jews settled in kashmir.

There was a power struggle for this throne. The valuable 'Rod of Moses "

that indicated kingship was stolen about this time...I believe and

stated in my book that this is the real reason behind the entire

crucifixion of Jesus...behind the scenes it was a power struggle for

Kashmir.

> >> > Once again, the story for crucification, the corner stone of Christianity as> > it stands today, might have been borrowed.

No, I

disagree...not 'borrowed' but experienced. An author, Kersey

Graves,who is a devout atheist, wrote a book titled " 'The World's 16 Crucified Saviors. "

This book has been sidetracked as totally shoddy research and much

fiction, but it does try to make the point that each 'savior' was

merely copying the one before. Why would they do this when in all

probability they had their own hopes, aspirations, promises, and

persecutions to deal with? I am sure that every few generations

experienced what could be construed as crucified saviors. In this

category, even Joan of Arc is considered a crucified savior.> >> >> > The proclaimed Virgin birth was already known in Iran in pre christian era

> > , attributed to Mehr or Mithra of 4th or 3rd C bce and it is also> > attributed to one Himalayan prophet , worshiping Sun and was preaching> > amongst foreigners, as per Bhavishya purana, which could have been written

> > sometime in between 1st Century bce to 1st century CE.> >

Why do some people think that there could be only one Immaculate Conception? The Bible mentions nine

different immaculate conceptions,. In fact as I recall

Sarasvati-Sarah conceived when she was in old age (I recall reading

somewhere that she was 90 years old?) This was considered a miraculous

birth too). Mother Mary's cousin Elizabeth had a visit from the same

messenger who visited Mary. Women got pregnant after these visits

(which should serve as a warning to the ladies; if you think you are

seeing angels, grab your birth control pills!)

There are many more example both within and outside Biblical sources of mulitple, similar events. Samuel

is one of the memorable and miraculous, exotic and extraordinary " birth

stories " of the Bible. In the Bible, there are five miraculous birth

stories that announce great Biblical characters, grand leaders, and

glorious religious personalities. All of these people with miraculous

births seem larger than life. In

the Old Testament, we begin with Adam and Eve. There are fragments of

missing texts found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) that verify and

describe the strange birth of Methuselah's son Lamech, who was the

father of Noah. Lamech realized immediately that this

child (Noah) was " different " and the father became afraid...He had to

be assured that Noah was chosen and special and that he, Lamech,

should keep the child and raise it as his own (this is similar to the

doubts first expressed by Joseph, father of Jesus). We also have

the story of Abraham and Sarah who had a miraculous child when they

were both over 100 years old.In the New Testament,

there is Zechariah and Elizabeth, who were visited by an angel to

announce an unexpected conception (John the Baptist). Gabriel also

appeared to Mother Mary to inform about the birth of Jesus.

Do you think all these stories were mere copies from previous stories?

Think about the current UFO beliefs: Is this limited

to Roswell, New Mexico? Not hardly. Flights and UFO's are

recorded in the Bible, in Egypt, in India,(including but not limited to

the Rajatarangini) in China where the 9 celestial

emperors flew all over the place! Even inRome are written

accounts of soldiers seeing strange metallic objects moving

across the sky, some even scaring their horses.

So I beg to differ with you about all these being mere

" coincidences " or borrowed from each other...I just don't see it that

way.

Kindest regards,

Sue

> > The Bible itself proves that all that told in New Testament is not original> > - for eg. the agony of biblical Jesus on the cross is borrowed from Psalm> > 22. While there is nothing that indicates that Psalm 22, which is clearly

> > pre christian, is a prophecy, it is often interpreted so, to camouflage the> > fact that the crucifix agony is borrowed.

November 25, 2008

For a small-time prophet, he hasn't done too badly! He has attracted over 1/3 of the world's population who are now Chrisitians, and it is still the fastest growing religion in the world today (in spite of Islam's claims to the contrary).

Attracted is not the right word. Agression is the better word. The Bible was pushed through the throat of many cultures with such a zeal and agression (and greed!). Many prosperous cultures were wiped out, not only politically and religiously. Islam has done the same, and the zealots of both religious enterprises still wage a competetive war over the heads of others.

This quoted sentence above seems odd set against the background of assumptions being made about cultural and thematic comparisons with India.

There were many first hand witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus who wrote outside the cannonical books. For example Flavius Josephus, the historian, and Saint Thomas, who left a rich legacy of literature in India that is now part of most every Thomas-Assyrian church in the world.

JC's life is more religious fiction than reality. Authentic historical testimonies are hardly there and vage. The original manuscript of the Jewish Antiquities of Josephus are lost. The passage "Testimonium flavianum" (testimony of Josephus) is from a late date, later than that of Origenes (240 CE), as he doesn't know it, neither any early church writers before him. Origenes also quoted Josephus as not believing that (one) Jesus was the Christ (the anointed one) . The earliest christian writing about the TF is Eusebius. Some (Olson) argue that Eusebius had interpolted TF in the Jewish Antiquities. Summarised, the TF is a hotly debated, insecure authentic testimony.

The hectic 1st century CE saw many rebels supposed to be the Anointed One not necessarily a Jesus, and more than one Jesus. And many miracle Rabbis.

Jewish scribes connected the prophecies of the OT with this fictional Anointed One around one (or more?) Jesus.

kind regards,

Ishwa

-

Suzanne Olsson

Monday, November 24, 2008 4:51 PM