Havilah (reply to Bruce)

November 26, 2008

, Bruce Duffy wrote:>Suzanne, no one knows what Jesus did in the decade or more of his life he went missing, he could easily have journeyed to India from Palestine, and by doing so have been exposed to the type of knowledge he appears to have possessed, but he could also have been exposed to that knowledge much closer to home as right from the beginning of the second millennium before his birth the greater Middle East region appears to have had a number of large Indo-European societies that very possibly could have had similar religious philosophies to those of the Brahmins of India.

Dear Bruce,

The point of my hypothesis is not the early missing years of Jesus....but rather his survival of the crucifixion, his journey to India after that event, and his eventual demise there of old age. I pulled together all the evidence I could find to support this idea.....including eye-witnesses who saw Jesus 11 years after the crucifixion.

Further, there are 'sacred' writings that came from Thomasian churches in India that place Magdalene and Jesus there together. This, and the other points mentioned in my book seem to establish overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus (and Thomas) in India....I cannot imagine under what circumstances people would go to such lengths to fabricate these Jesus in India stories in 45 AD .

I agree with you that 'Christianity' as a religion is quite another topic...seperate from the topic of the existence of Jesus. The responses here have been like a shotgun blast, with frgaments going off in many directions. I would like to start a new topic dealing with just one subject, the genaelolgy of Siddharta Buddha..after that discussion has been aired, I would like to discuss the DNA of Tocharian mummies, Brahmins, and what made me determine the pattern and the AIT theory...we can set the theory next to the actual DNA evidence and see where it leads us...OK?

Many thanks and all the best,

Sue

Thank you for your well thought out reply...You were quick to identify some of the problems with these posts...Some people seem to have missed the point entirely whilst others grasped it and took discussions to the next level....

Many thanks,

Sue

, Bruce Duffy <bwduffy wrote:>> Dear Suzanne and Ishwa,> your discussion has raised a number of important issues. I think we > have to distinguish between the 'man' called Jesus who very probably > did exist about 2000 years ago and the movement called Christianity > that appears to have only started to become a significant world > religion around 300 CE when it became the religion of the already > widespread Roman Empire. From what we can glean about Jesus from > Mark's gospel and Thomas' apocryphal gospel Jesus comes across as a > man of knowledge; that is a gnostic or what in Sanskrit a jnanim (I > mean here gnostic in the sense of 'one who knows' and not a member of > the heretic Christian movement called Gnostics]. But the movement we > call Christianity, which although having examples among its ranks of > people of great spirituality, and love and compassion for mankind, > does on the whole appear to me to have, as has been suggested by Ishwa > and other members of this group, a history of many wrongs to answer for.> > Suzanne, no one knows what Jesus did in the decade or more of his life > he went missing, he could easily have journeyed to India from > Palestine, and by doing so have been exposed to the type of knowledge > he appears to have possessed, but he could also have been exposed to > that knowledge much closer to home as right from the beginning of the > second millennium before his birth the greater Middle East region > appears to have had a number of large Indo-European societies that > very possibly could have had similar religious philosophies to those > of the Brahmins of India.> > The same is true about the possibility that the Hebrew Patriarchs > could have come from Sumer and could have been Indo-Europeans; no one > knows who the Sumerians really were and whether there was an Indo- > European element present in their society. References in Sumerian and > Vedic literature to the 'seven original seers' could be an indication > of a link between those two societies. However, I am not too certain > about the Bible as an accurate history of the Jews and how old a > Hebrew tradition the story of the Patriarchs coming from Mesopotamia > is? I to the school of thought that the Bible was largely > compiled by elite Israelites in Babylon, during the time of the Exile, > and that their purpose in composing and compiling it was to assist > with the amalgamation of the loosely affiliated Jewish communities > still residing in Palestine. Certainly there is earlier Hebrew > material contained in it, but I believe that what we refer to as the > Bible was mainly a creation of those elite Jews living in exile in > Babylon; a city which at the time of the Exile was regarded as the > centre of knowledge and learning in the ancient world. Much of the > material in the Hebrew Bible appears to have been heavily influenced > by the traditions, religion and stories of other earlier and > contemporary cultures of the Middle East.> > Ishwa, I think people underestimate the influence that the Hurri- > Mitannian society of Mesopotamia had on Egypt religious thought during > the time of Amenophis III and IV that resulted from the arranged > marriages between Amenophis III and Mitannian princesses. Each > Mitannian princess being accompanied by a sizable retinue of skilled > artisans and an armed escort must have meant there was a degree of > cultural exchange between the two societies and one cannot > underestimate what influence an attractive and intelligent princess, > and most likely her accompanying advisor or priest, could have had on > the Egyptian court. That this strong cultural interaction between the > royal court of Egypt and what was very probably a culturally Vedic > ruling elite in Mitanni should have happened around the time that > Egypt developed its most monotheistic form of religion is significant; > it is also significant that it was at this time that Akhenaten's hymns > to Aten, which scholars see as having very strong parallels with hymns > in the Hebrew Bible, were composed at this time.> > Bruce> > > On 25/11/2008, at 9:52 AM, Isha wrote:> > >> > Dear Suzanne,> >> > Mair's theory is just a theory, nothing more. The AIT assumption was > > taken for long as a fact, till disproven. Its daughter AMT is > > nothing but a disguise of AIT, still without proof. The Tarim > > mummies didn't proof that some people migrated from there to India. > > It did proof that the people related to the mummies were intruders > > themselves in Xinjiang. Even though there is absolutely no evidence > > of small pocket migrations, the assumption is held by its > > protagonists, just because old ideas (having its origins in > > suspicious and dubious racial theories of the nineteenth century).> >> > Linking Abraham and India from one original monoculture are far > > removed from reality. It is a nice fantasy for the ones adhering to > > that, but it is not taken serious by any serious scholar.> >> > The Bible is a nice cultural multi-layered work of Israeli tribes, > > having adopted many story lines from more ancient (alien) cultures. > > It is important for abrahamitic cults, but it has no additional > > value for non-abrahamitic cultures who have suffered under their > > agressive, destructive religious zealots up to this very day, whose > > main target it is get as many souls as possible with whatever means.> >> > Apart from the academic issues, one of the greatest curses the world > > has witnessed is this "monotheism" as developed by the abrahamites. > > (Akhenaton rather got his solar Aton monotheism from his royal Hurri- > > Mitanni blood relatives. The Hebrews amongst the Hapiru contract- > > slaves have learnt this in the Egyptian delta before fleeing/ > > migrating to Palestine.)> > While Judaism didn't display expansionism, its offsprings certainly > > did with some evil currents, even at the dearly cost of its parent > > branch. And the rest of the old and new world have clearly felt the > > impact of this monotheistic dogmatic doctrine. Countless cultures > > have been wiped out, even more people have been massacred, > > annihilated, etc.> >> > The world and academia don't need this "monotheism" or the > > abrahamitic monolithic thinking at all. There world of diversity has > > suffered enough from this, which is deeply rooted in some academic > > strongholds in Europe and the US.> > India doesn't need this at all. Live and let live. But abrahamitic > > zealots will never understand this or live up to this respectful way > > of living.> >> > kind regards,> > Ishwa> >> >> >> > -> > Suzanne Olsson> > > > Monday, November 24, 2008 1:56 PM> > Re: Havilah (reply to Ishwa)> >> >> > , isha shiva adhin88@ wrote:> > > Dear Suzanne,> > > Thank you. I have read about "Havilah" as being a reference to > > India. Expressions like "land of milk and honey" are already in the > > Vedas (with reference to the Nahushas> I believe that the Tarim > > mummy research was done by Hemphill. Victor Mair is, if I am not > > wrong, a protagonist of the migration of IE people from the Central- > > Asia (and Tarim) into the subcontinent.> >> > Dear Ishwa,> >> > I happen to agree in a large part with Victor Mair's theory. It > > parallels my own. The evidence seems overwhelming that these > > Tocharians were the only inhabitants to the north of India who we > > could reasonably assume were the "Aryan invaders"...but I don't > > believe they were "invaders" in the sense they arrived with vast > > armies and swept away everything before them. It was a slow gradual > > trickle filling in vast land areas that were vacated or sparsely > > settled. The DNA of myself and most northern Indians seems to > > reflect this Tocharian blend.> >> > The concept of monotheism is traced back to Akhenaten and then to > > Abraham, and is retained in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The > > concept arose in India at the same time that Abraham existed. So if > > we prove a link between Abraham and India, then we have proven the > > cultural foundations for these beliefs cannot be seperated as > > "Hindus' and 'Hebrews"....> >> > Best regards,> >> > Sue> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

November 28, 2008

Dear Suzanne, I am sorry about getting it so wrong about when you believe Jesus travelled to India. I suppose my main point of interest in relation to Jesus these days is how closely his actual knowledge accorded with that of the Indian Brahmins.Before you brought the groups attention to it in your messages I was not aware of the fact that ancient philosophers identified Jews with Hindu-Brahmin priests. That is a very important piece of information, thanks for making me aware of it. All the best, Bruce On 27/11/2008, at 2:01 AM, Suzanne Olsson wrote: , Bruce Duffy wrote:>Suzanne, no one knows what Jesus did in the decade or more of his life he went missing, he could easily have journeyed to India from Palestine, and by doing so have been exposed to the type of knowledge he appears to have possessed, but he could also have been exposed to that knowledge much closer to home as right from the beginning of the second millennium before his birth the greater Middle East region appears to have had a number of large Indo-European societies that very possibly could have had similar religious philosophies to those of the Brahmins of India. Dear Bruce,The point of my hypothesis is not the early missing years of Jesus....but rather hissurvival of the crucifixion, his journey to India after that event, and his eventual demise there of old age. I pulled together all the evidence I could find to support this idea.....including eye-witnesses who saw Jesus 11 years after the crucifixion.

November 30, 2008

Hello !

I am back from the field (dark & bright, sunny and starry). i find the site has possibly picked up some induction from Mumbai !!

Some time ago, i had noted that an scholar called Suzanne had a Thesis :

A possibility of scholarship having a common genetical geo-spatial region and/OR a common maintainer (pratipalak) region and/OR something common in relation to time and place looks very pertinent. It is a wonderful theory.

Yes, the term Brahmana is a synonym of the phone 'scholar' (Read, Brahmasutra of Badrayana and OR Brahmasutra-bhasya of Adi Sankara or any one on the same topic, in-between these two Scholars/Brahmans).

To my mind, this is a original theory.

Yes, the question Did scholarship spring from a regional domain ?

and/OR was it that scholars from across world wide tend to gravitate towards a geo-climatic or geo-scholastic region or geo-cultural region

and/OR was it for one all for any combination of reasons ?

and/OR was it that there was a geographic region that had a parampara (tradition) of tolerating various view points and thereby acted as mother bed of Brahmanas ?

and/OR was it that there was a geographic region that had a parampara of foisting / generating Gurus (teachers) one after another or numerous, simultaneously ?

and/OR was dialect/speech (logically sequenced presentation of thought and experience for understanding via hearing faculties) the first step towards scholarship ?

and/OR was moral science the first step towards scholarship using such attained ability (note : all the Prophets seemed to have espoused moral science. Comparatively the Rik Veda espouses Moral Sc. + Physical Sc., that way it may be a pre-curser. The Rik Veda (elemental plurality) uses physical world as an inspiration and term 'expression' as the highest...for what it itself says as 'speech/dialect'

and/OR ...other questions will form the Chapters of the bulwark of this theory.

Very much a giant of an idea. Great theory ! It is an Global agenda, for it entails intercontinental field study. and involvement of specialist as well as multi-disciplinary researchers almost from all domains of human attainment. The incipient idea cum initial work done gives to it lot of kinetic energy and posits itself as a pristine domain of research, which is full of opportunity (yes earlier News reports are there - in direction Jesus/Jehovah : Kashmir. I will acknowledge them as and when i came to know about).

It is another matter, that such theory may be in complete variance with my personal beliefs or what my parents, teachers, society had educated me with, during the last 50yrs. I quote myself...."History (i.e. process history/thought research) is alike Cosmology, It is ......and mistful and....... Data pop up possibility remains always..................." db, Utkal Historical Research Journal- 2006 & 07, Utkal Uni. Bhubaneswar, India.

I had also (opined/advised) that it will require life time (i) mono centric physical and cerebral input (ii) OR has to be made multi-lateral (numerous nation involvement). The day MIT (USA) or some institution of multi-disciplinary researchers take up this agenda, i will again be quick to say 'ah ! had said so'. I look forward to that occasion.

Dr. db

Bhubaneswar-India

-

Bruce Duffy

Friday, November 28, 2008 6:19 AM

Re: Re: Havilah (reply to Bruce)

Dear Suzanne, I am sorry about getting it so wrong about when you believe Jesus travelled to India. I suppose my main point of interest in relation to Jesus these days is how closely his actual knowledge accorded with that of the Indian Brahmins.

Before you brought the groups attention to it in your messages I was not aware of the fact that ancient philosophers identified Jews with Hindu-Brahmin priests. That is a very important piece of information, thanks for making me aware of it.