Some musings on Ancient Indian Geography

[Guest guest]

Once in a discussion one of my friend made a point that the kabba stone in mecca is a Jyothirlinga (or something prime of that sort. I couldn't recall). The temples in cambodia, afganistan do depict the limits Hinduism once had.

 

Did Islam/Christianity had any Hindu influence in its evolution?

 

One of the version of the origin of the Indian civilization said that, a tribe once in the central Asia did split, one of which did reach Indian subcontinent and the other the Greece part. The justification of which was the lot of similarities in the different Gods - Like a diverse forms of Gods.

 

Another intriguing point is, Tamil and Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu have deals of similarity. Despite that geographically, all the languages are side by side, Tamil/Malayalam and Kannada/Telugu do not share similarity.

 

Can anyone throw a few thoughts on these?

Sriharsha. S|.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.|I am an angel; the horns are just to keep the halo straight.

 

 

 

 

kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 ; ; indiaarchaeology <IndiaArchaeology >; bharatiyaexpertsforum ; hinducivilization ; akandabaratam Sent: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008 6:11:44 PM Re: Some musings on Ancient Indian Geography

 

I AM GIVING THE LIST OF 56 COUNTRIES:

 

Anga

Vanga

Kalinga

Kalinga

Kerala including Siddhi kerala

Hamsa kerala

Sarvesa kerala

Kasmira

Kamarupa

Maharashtra

Andhra

Saurashtra or Gurjara

Tailinga

Malayala

Karnata

Avanti

Vidarbha

Maru (n.w. Gujarat)

Abhira

Malwa

Cola

Pancala

Kamboja

Virata

Pandu (west of Delhi)

Videha or Tairabhukti

Bahlika

Kirata

Vakranta (bet. Balucistan and Iran)

Khurasana ( extends upto Mecca ; Intererestingly, Mecca is described as a Saiva pilgrimage center)

Airaka

Bhotanta

Cina (south east of Manasa sarovar or Tibet )

Maha Cina (China)

Nepala

Silahatta (North East)

Gauda (Bengal and Orissa)

Maha Kosala

Magadha

Kikata (southern Magadha)

Utkala

Srikuntala

Huna

Konkana

Kaikaya

Saurasena

Kuru

Simhala

Pulinda

Kaccha

Matsya

Madra

Sauvira

Lata

Varvara

Saindhava

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

[Guest guest]



Normally, the apex shrines of any faith are not built on the remains of shrines that once belonged to some other faith. This is the thumb rule.

 

Astronomically the 3 stupas at Mecca or Medina (i think ?) appear to be reflection of the star triplets that are in the mid belt of the Orion Constellation. The centre being Epsilon Orion. Similar is the case of the 3 most important Pyramids in thre Nile valley. One can view it via Google maps. Then visit for better understanding cum co-relationing [1,2].

 

Kaaba could be Alpha Cassiopeia or Alpha Auriga or still more probably Alpha Orionis.

 

To me prima facie it posits as original Islamic Archaeoastronomy.

 

Dr. db

 

Ref -

 

1 - http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/DBhattacharya1.php

 

2 - Indian Journal of History of Science, Indian National Science Academy , Vol . 41, No. 1 , Mar.2006, pp. 53 – 75.

 

 

 

 

-

sripathi sriharsha

Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:02 PM

Re: Re: Some musings on Ancient Indian Geography

 

 

 

 

 

Once in a discussion one of my friend made a point that the kabba stone in mecca is a Jyothirlinga (or something prime of that sort. I couldn't recall). The temples in cambodia, afganistan do depict the limits Hinduism once had.

 

Did Islam/Christianity had any Hindu influence in its evolution?

 

One of the version of the origin of the Indian civilization said that, a tribe once in the central Asia did split, one of which did reach Indian subcontinent and the other the Greece part. The justification of which was the lot of similarities in the different Gods - Like a diverse forms of Gods.

 

Another intriguing point is, Tamil and Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu have deals of similarity. Despite that geographically, all the languages are side by side, Tamil/Malayalam and Kannada/Telugu do not share similarity.

 

Can anyone throw a few thoughts on these?

Sriharsha. S|.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.||.~''~.|I am an angel; the horns are just to keep the halo straight.

 

 

 

 

kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 > ; ; indiaarchaeology <IndiaArchaeology >; bharatiyaexpertsforum ; hinducivilization ; akandabaratam Sent: Wednesday, 17 December, 2008 6:11:44 PM Re: Some musings on Ancient Indian Geography

 

I AM GIVING THE LIST OF 56 COUNTRIES:

 

Anga Vanga Kalinga Kalinga Kerala including Siddhi kerala Hamsa kerala Sarvesa kerala Kasmira Kamarupa Maharashtra Andhra Saurashtra or Gurjara Tailinga Malayala Karnata Avanti Vidarbha Maru (n.w. Gujarat) Abhira Malwa Cola Pancala Kamboja Virata Pandu (west of Delhi) Videha or Tairabhukti Bahlika Kirata Vakranta (bet. Balucistan and Iran) Khurasana ( extends upto Mecca ; Intererestingly, Mecca is described as a Saiva pilgrimage center) Airaka Bhotanta Cina (south east of Manasa sarovar or Tibet ) Maha Cina (China) Nepala Silahatta (North East) Gauda (Bengal and Orissa) Maha Kosala Magadha Kikata (southern Magadha) Utkala Srikuntala Huna Konkana Kaikaya Saurasena Kuru Simhala Pulinda Kaccha Matsya Madra Sauvira Lata Varvara Saindhava

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Can anyone please let me know where is Pancasata located? It is a small village where there was huge opposition to Buddha.

 

Buddha could not get food here.

 

Kishore patnaik

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 1:16 PM, kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

 

 

Let us talk about Madhya desa and related names.

Madhya desa is the most central of the earliest political provinces in India.

According to Manu, Madhya desa is the land between Himalaya in the north, the Vindhya in the South, Prayaga (Allahabad) in the east and Vinasana (the place where Sarasvati disappears) in the West. Evidently , this kind of description is traditional since it appears to be older than what we find in the Buddhist Pali canon. Pali canons describe the eastern tip of Madhya desa to be far to the east of Prayaga, unlike Manu. This proves beyond doubt that Manu Smriti is composed earlier to Buddha.

The description of Madhya desa in Pali canons occurs in Vinaya Pitaka (Vin.i.197; DA.i.173; MA.i.316, etc.; AA.i.55, etc.; J.i.49; Mbv.12)in connection with Avanti Dakshinapatha country where the Buddhist monk Maha Katyayana was carrying on his missionary work. Avanti Dakshinapatha was , we are told, outside the Middle country and it appears that Buddhist had not made much progress there when Maha Katyayana began his work. He was the same monk who has converted King Asmaka or Assika of Bodhan in Andhra pradesh. (We have already discussed about Asmaka desha earlier)

When a new member was received into the Buddhist Order, the necessary initiation ceremony had to be performed before a chapter of at least ten monks. This was the rule ordained by Buddha, but this was well nigh impossible in the Avanti Dakshina patha country as there were very few Bhihus there. Maha Katyayana , therefore sent a pupil of his to Buddha to get the rule relaxed. Buddha relaxed the rule and laid down that all provinces outside the Middle country (i.e. where Buddhism was prominent during the living days of Buddha) a chapter of four Bhikshus was quite sufficient. It was however necessary to specify the boundaries of the Middle country and this was done by Buddha with characteristic precision. To the east , was the town called Kajangala , beyond that lies Mahasala. To the south east is the river Salalavati , to the south is the town Setakanuika, to the west is the Brahman village called Thuna and to the north is the mountain called Ustraddhaja. Unfortunately, none of these boundary places here specified have been identified except one. This exception is the easterly point ie Kajangala.

Kajangala:

Kajangala , according to Prof Rhys Davids, is situated nearly 70 miles east of Bhagalpur. Kajangala must be spreading across an area what is now part of Birbhum district in West Bengal and Santhal paraganas in Jharkhand (Roy, Niharranjan, Bangalir Itihas, Adi Parba, (Bengali), first published 1972, reprint 2005, pp. 99-100, 81-93, Dey's Publishing, 13 Bankim Chatterjee Street, Kolkata,) This formed part of the Rarh region of later times, mentioned in Bhubaneswar stone tablet of Bhatta Bhabadev, a minister of King Harinbarmadev of 11th c . CE. Hiuen Tsang ( 640 CE)also had mentioned about Kajangala in his writings that he traveled from Bhagalpur or champa to Kajangala and then proceeded to Pundravardhana

Kajangala seems to be a prosperous place where provisions could easily be obtained (dabbasambhárasulabhá) (J.iv.310) during Buddha's times . Once when the Buddha was staying in the Veluvana at Kajangala, the lay followers there heard a sermon from the Buddha and went to the nun Kajangalá to have it explained in detail (A.v.54f). On another occasion the Buddha stayed in the Mukheluvana and was visited there by Uttara, the disciple of Párásariya. Their conversation is recorded in the Indriyabháváná Sutta (M.iii.298ff). In the Milindapañha (p.10), Kajangala is described as a brahmin village and is given as the place of Nágasena's birth. In the Kapota Játaka mention is made of Kajangala, and the scholiast (J.iii.226-7) explains that it may be the same as Benares. According to the scholiast of the Bhisa Játaka (J.iv.311), the tree-spirit mentioned in that story was the chief resident monk in an old monastery in Kajangala, which monastery he repaired with difficulty during the time of Kassapa Buddha.

In the time of Buddha , therefore, the eastern limit of the Middle country had extended nearly 400 miles eastward of Prayaga which was its eastern most point in Manu's time. Now there can not be any doubt that Madhya desa was looked upon as a territorial division. Jataka tales make constant reference to it. Thus in one place we read of two merchants going from Utkala to the Middle country (Jataka tales I, 80) We also read there that Videha is a part of Middle country or Majjhima desa/ (Jat., III.364) Again, we hear of hermits fearing to descend from Himalayas to go into Majjhima desa because people there are too learned (Jat III, 115-6) Thus, it is clear that that Majjhima desa was a name not created by literary authors but was actually in vogue among the people and denoted a particular territorial division. It was with reference to this Middle Country that the terms Dakshina patha and Uttara patha seem to have come into use. Thus, it is possible that Dakshinapatha originally meant a country to the south not of Vindhyas but a country to the south of Middle country. This is clear from the fact that we find mention made of Avanti Dakshinapatha. (ie Southern Avanti ) It is worthy of note that Avanti was a very extensive country and that in Buddhist works we sometimes hear of Ujjeni and some times of Mahissati (or present Maheswari) as being its capital. While Ujjeni is the well known Ujjain, Mahissati must be the same as the Sanskrit Mahismati.

Mahismati:

Mahismati is variously identified but today, it is taken as the modern Maheswar, a town in the Khargone District in Madhya Pradesh (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Maheshwar & params=22.18_N_75.58_E_)

Mahismati, popular as the capital of Heheyas , the dynasty to which Kartavirya Arjuna belongs, was mentioned in Mbh as well as in Ramayan. (Mbh 13:52) Karvavirya was a contemporary of Ravana , who has unsuccessfully attacked Mahismati. Sahadeva ,one of the Pandava brothers, also attacked Mahismati when king Nila was its ruler (Mbh 2:30) King Nila also fought on the side of Kauravas in the war of Kuruksetra.

It appears that Ujjain was the capital of the northern division of Avanti or Avanti country and Maheswar of the southern division , which was therefore called Avanti Dashkina patha. It is possible that the Southern Avanti included parts of Vidarbha which were to the south of Vindhya . Thus, the country of Avanti Dakshinapatha (Jat III. 463.16) was not exactly to the south of Vindhya as its upper half was to the north of Vindhyas and lower half to the south of Vindhyas. Yet if it was called Dakshinapatha, it is because it was lying to the south not so much of the Vindhyas but of the Middle country. The same appears to be the case with term Uttarapatha.

Uttarapatha:

One Jataka (II. 287.15) speaks of certain horse dealers as having come from Uttarapatha to Baranasi or Benares. Uttarapatha cannot here signify Northern India because Benares itself is in Northern India. Evidently it denotes a country at least outside and to the north of the Kasi kingdom whose capital was Benares. As the horses of the dealers just referred to are called Sindhava , it clearly indicates that they came from the banks of Indus (Sindh8). Indus is as much to the north as to the west of Saraswati and therefore must have been in the north west of Madhya desa also. It was thus with reference to the Middle country that the name Uttarapatha also was devised. In fact, Divyavadana clearly mentions that Taxila was placed in Uttarapatha. . We find that the term Uttarapatha was in this sense almost till 10th Century CE.

Thus, when Prabhakaravardhana, king of Sthaneswar , sent his son Rajyavardhana to invade Huna territory in Himalayas, Bana , the author of Harsacarita, represents him to have gone to the Uttarapatha.. As the Huna territory was thus placed in Uttarapatha, it is clear that Prabhakaravardhana's kingdom was excluded from Uttaraptha. As Thaneswar was on the eastern side of Saraswati, his kingdom was understood to be included in the Madhyadesa with reference to which alone the Huna territory seems to have been described as being in the Uttarapatha.

Similarly, the poet Rajasekhara (880-920 CE), in his Kavyamimansa attests that Uttarapatha lay to the west of Prithudaka (modern Pehoa) near Thaneswar in Haryana. Prithudaka lies on the banks of river Saraswati and is associated with the legendary king Prithu. Prithudaka literally means the pool of Prithu and is said to be place where Prithu is believed to have performed the Shraddha of his father. Hiuen Tsang also records the existence of the town Pehoa, named after Prithu, " who is said to be the first person that obtained the title Raja (king) " . The town is referred as the boundary between Northern and central India and referred to by Patanjali.

Coming back to Kavyamimamsa, it further lists the Sakas, Vokkanas, Hunas, Kambojas, Keikayas, Bahlikas (Bactrian's), Pahlavas, Lampakas, Kulutas, Tanganas, Tusharas, Turushakas (Turks), Barbaras among the tribes of Uttarapatha (Kavyamimamsa Chapter 17).

It is therefore clear that the terms Dakshinapatha and Uttarapatha came into vogue only in regard to the Madhyadesa. It must, however, be borne in mind that the term Uttarapatha denoted different meanings in Northern and Southen Indias even at the time of Bana. In North India, it denoted the country north of Madhya desha. But in South India, it held a different meaning. It denoted the whole of North India even during times of Bana as mentioned above. Thus Harshavardhana, Bana's patron, has been described in South Indian inscriptions as Srimad Uttarapathadhipati i.e. sovereign of Uttaraptha which must here signify North India. (JBBRAS , XIV, 26; I.A., VIII, 46).

[Guest guest]

Can anyone please let me know where is Pancasata located? It is a small village where there was huge opposition to Buddha.

 

Buddha could not get food here.

 

Kishore patnaik

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 1:16 PM, kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

 

 

Let us talk about Madhya desa and related names.

Madhya desa is the most central of the earliest political provinces in India.

According to Manu, Madhya desa is the land between Himalaya in the north, the Vindhya in the South, Prayaga (Allahabad) in the east and Vinasana (the place where Sarasvati disappears) in the West. Evidently , this kind of description is traditional since it appears to be older than what we find in the Buddhist Pali canon. Pali canons describe the eastern tip of Madhya desa to be far to the east of Prayaga, unlike Manu. This proves beyond doubt that Manu Smriti is composed earlier to Buddha.

The description of Madhya desa in Pali canons occurs in Vinaya Pitaka (Vin.i.197; DA.i.173; MA.i.316, etc.; AA.i.55, etc.; J.i.49; Mbv.12)in connection with Avanti Dakshinapatha country where the Buddhist monk Maha Katyayana was carrying on his missionary work. Avanti Dakshinapatha was , we are told, outside the Middle country and it appears that Buddhist had not made much progress there when Maha Katyayana began his work. He was the same monk who has converted King Asmaka or Assika of Bodhan in Andhra pradesh. (We have already discussed about Asmaka desha earlier)

When a new member was received into the Buddhist Order, the necessary initiation ceremony had to be performed before a chapter of at least ten monks. This was the rule ordained by Buddha, but this was well nigh impossible in the Avanti Dakshina patha country as there were very few Bhihus there. Maha Katyayana , therefore sent a pupil of his to Buddha to get the rule relaxed. Buddha relaxed the rule and laid down that all provinces outside the Middle country (i.e. where Buddhism was prominent during the living days of Buddha) a chapter of four Bhikshus was quite sufficient. It was however necessary to specify the boundaries of the Middle country and this was done by Buddha with characteristic precision. To the east , was the town called Kajangala , beyond that lies Mahasala. To the south east is the river Salalavati , to the south is the town Setakanuika, to the west is the Brahman village called Thuna and to the north is the mountain called Ustraddhaja. Unfortunately, none of these boundary places here specified have been identified except one. This exception is the easterly point ie Kajangala.

Kajangala:

Kajangala , according to Prof Rhys Davids, is situated nearly 70 miles east of Bhagalpur. Kajangala must be spreading across an area what is now part of Birbhum district in West Bengal and Santhal paraganas in Jharkhand (Roy, Niharranjan, Bangalir Itihas, Adi Parba, (Bengali), first published 1972, reprint 2005, pp. 99-100, 81-93, Dey's Publishing, 13 Bankim Chatterjee Street, Kolkata,) This formed part of the Rarh region of later times, mentioned in Bhubaneswar stone tablet of Bhatta Bhabadev, a minister of King Harinbarmadev of 11th c . CE. Hiuen Tsang ( 640 CE)also had mentioned about Kajangala in his writings that he traveled from Bhagalpur or champa to Kajangala and then proceeded to Pundravardhana

Kajangala seems to be a prosperous place where provisions could easily be obtained (dabbasambhárasulabhá) (J.iv.310) during Buddha's times . Once when the Buddha was staying in the Veluvana at Kajangala, the lay followers there heard a sermon from the Buddha and went to the nun Kajangalá to have it explained in detail (A.v.54f). On another occasion the Buddha stayed in the Mukheluvana and was visited there by Uttara, the disciple of Párásariya. Their conversation is recorded in the Indriyabháváná Sutta (M.iii.298ff). In the Milindapañha (p.10), Kajangala is described as a brahmin village and is given as the place of Nágasena's birth. In the Kapota Játaka mention is made of Kajangala, and the scholiast (J.iii.226-7) explains that it may be the same as Benares. According to the scholiast of the Bhisa Játaka (J.iv.311), the tree-spirit mentioned in that story was the chief resident monk in an old monastery in Kajangala, which monastery he repaired with difficulty during the time of Kassapa Buddha.

In the time of Buddha , therefore, the eastern limit of the Middle country had extended nearly 400 miles eastward of Prayaga which was its eastern most point in Manu's time. Now there can not be any doubt that Madhya desa was looked upon as a territorial division. Jataka tales make constant reference to it. Thus in one place we read of two merchants going from Utkala to the Middle country (Jataka tales I, 80) We also read there that Videha is a part of Middle country or Majjhima desa/ (Jat., III.364) Again, we hear of hermits fearing to descend from Himalayas to go into Majjhima desa because people there are too learned (Jat III, 115-6) Thus, it is clear that that Majjhima desa was a name not created by literary authors but was actually in vogue among the people and denoted a particular territorial division. It was with reference to this Middle Country that the terms Dakshina patha and Uttara patha seem to have come into use. Thus, it is possible that Dakshinapatha originally meant a country to the south not of Vindhyas but a country to the south of Middle country. This is clear from the fact that we find mention made of Avanti Dakshinapatha. (ie Southern Avanti ) It is worthy of note that Avanti was a very extensive country and that in Buddhist works we sometimes hear of Ujjeni and some times of Mahissati (or present Maheswari) as being its capital. While Ujjeni is the well known Ujjain, Mahissati must be the same as the Sanskrit Mahismati.

Mahismati:

Mahismati is variously identified but today, it is taken as the modern Maheswar, a town in the Khargone District in Madhya Pradesh (http://stable.toolserver.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=Maheshwar & params=22.18_N_75.58_E_)

Mahismati, popular as the capital of Heheyas , the dynasty to which Kartavirya Arjuna belongs, was mentioned in Mbh as well as in Ramayan. (Mbh 13:52) Karvavirya was a contemporary of Ravana , who has unsuccessfully attacked Mahismati. Sahadeva ,one of the Pandava brothers, also attacked Mahismati when king Nila was its ruler (Mbh 2:30) King Nila also fought on the side of Kauravas in the war of Kuruksetra.

It appears that Ujjain was the capital of the northern division of Avanti or Avanti country and Maheswar of the southern division , which was therefore called Avanti Dashkina patha. It is possible that the Southern Avanti included parts of Vidarbha which were to the south of Vindhya . Thus, the country of Avanti Dakshinapatha (Jat III. 463.16) was not exactly to the south of Vindhya as its upper half was to the north of Vindhyas and lower half to the south of Vindhyas. Yet if it was called Dakshinapatha, it is because it was lying to the south not so much of the Vindhyas but of the Middle country. The same appears to be the case with term Uttarapatha.

Uttarapatha:

One Jataka (II. 287.15) speaks of certain horse dealers as having come from Uttarapatha to Baranasi or Benares. Uttarapatha cannot here signify Northern India because Benares itself is in Northern India. Evidently it denotes a country at least outside and to the north of the Kasi kingdom whose capital was Benares. As the horses of the dealers just referred to are called Sindhava , it clearly indicates that they came from the banks of Indus (Sindh8). Indus is as much to the north as to the west of Saraswati and therefore must have been in the north west of Madhya desa also. It was thus with reference to the Middle country that the name Uttarapatha also was devised. In fact, Divyavadana clearly mentions that Taxila was placed in Uttarapatha. . We find that the term Uttarapatha was in this sense almost till 10th Century CE.

Thus, when Prabhakaravardhana, king of Sthaneswar , sent his son Rajyavardhana to invade Huna territory in Himalayas, Bana , the author of Harsacarita, represents him to have gone to the Uttarapatha.. As the Huna territory was thus placed in Uttarapatha, it is clear that Prabhakaravardhana's kingdom was excluded from Uttaraptha. As Thaneswar was on the eastern side of Saraswati, his kingdom was understood to be included in the Madhyadesa with reference to which alone the Huna territory seems to have been described as being in the Uttarapatha.

Similarly, the poet Rajasekhara (880-920 CE), in his Kavyamimansa attests that Uttarapatha lay to the west of Prithudaka (modern Pehoa) near Thaneswar in Haryana. Prithudaka lies on the banks of river Saraswati and is associated with the legendary king Prithu. Prithudaka literally means the pool of Prithu and is said to be place where Prithu is believed to have performed the Shraddha of his father. Hiuen Tsang also records the existence of the town Pehoa, named after Prithu, " who is said to be the first person that obtained the title Raja (king) " . The town is referred as the boundary between Northern and central India and referred to by Patanjali.

Coming back to Kavyamimamsa, it further lists the Sakas, Vokkanas, Hunas, Kambojas, Keikayas, Bahlikas (Bactrian's), Pahlavas, Lampakas, Kulutas, Tanganas, Tusharas, Turushakas (Turks), Barbaras among the tribes of Uttarapatha (Kavyamimamsa Chapter 17).

It is therefore clear that the terms Dakshinapatha and Uttarapatha came into vogue only in regard to the Madhyadesa. It must, however, be borne in mind that the term Uttarapatha denoted different meanings in Northern and Southen Indias even at the time of Bana. In North India, it denoted the country north of Madhya desha. But in South India, it held a different meaning. It denoted the whole of North India even during times of Bana as mentioned above. Thus Harshavardhana, Bana's patron, has been described in South Indian inscriptions as Srimad Uttarapathadhipati i.e. sovereign of Uttaraptha which must here signify North India. (JBBRAS , XIV, 26; I.A., VIII, 46).

[Guest guest]

Dear Kishore,

Do you have any alternate spellings for that village ?

I'm

not getting anything in my extensive Gazetteers.

What is it near? Which modern state ?

Kathie

[Guest guest]

what is MSS of SKB?regards, Kishore patnaik On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 7:16 PM, ODDISILAB <oddisilab1 wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can the web master, consider to hoist\mail a copy of the Mss of SKB, on the topic Buddha's date. Some time ago, I had asked the author for it.

 

Regards

 

Dr. db

 

-

 

kishore patnaik

 

Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:02 AM

Re: Re: Some musings on Ancient Indian Geography

 

 

Dear Sunilji, While i have no comments on the dating of Mahavir, I fully support your thinking about Buddha's date. Here, it has been proposed that Pali had been a popular language in South India for a very long time. regards, Kishore patnaik

On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Kishoreji,

 

From my studies I find that Pali was the language in which Lord Buddha spoke and preached, in the 19th century BCE. Pali is therefore called the Buddha -Vacchana or the language of Budddha. The Pali, as was spoken by Lord Buddha was frozen, so that no further change is made in that language, and it became the classical language as the Hinayana scriptures were also written in that. Thus Pali could preserve the linguistic purity of the Hinayana scriptures to this day. Obviously the Pali as the classical language spread to the countries such as Sri Lanka and Myanmar, where the Hinayana Buddhisn spread. Pali is also called the Shuddha Magadhi.

 

The Local language in Magadha did change in course of time and that evolving language is referred to as the Magadhi.

 

In the 6th century BCE, ie 13 centuries after Lord Buddha, there came Lord Mahavira, who preached in Ardha-Magadhi (literally Half-Magadhi), which is an Apabhramsa of Magadhi. We will not be wrong if we also say that Ardha-magadhi was an Apabhramsa of Pali or the Shuddha magadhi.

 

I feel that Pali or Shuddha Magadhi originally belonged to the Mahadha region. Later on during the time of amudragupta it spread to Ujjaini and then to other places. Some scholars however think that Ujjaini was the region where it belonged to.

 

Due to misconception on the dates of Lord Buddha and Lord Mahavira, many scholars believe in the impossible situation that Pali (or Shuddha-magadhi), Magadhi and Ardha-Magadhi (ot Jaina Prakrit) flourished side be side

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 12/12/08, kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

 

kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09 Re: Some musings on Ancient Indian Geography , " " , " indiaarchaeology " <IndiaArchaeology >, bharatiyaexpertsforum , hinducivilization , akandabaratam Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 8:41 PM

 

 

 

 

 

hinducivilization, " Ramesh Krishnamurthy " <rkmurthy wrote:Kishore-ji, your posts are all mixed up with far too many things andit is not clear what is it that you are trying to say.Regarding Pali, it is the language of the oldest layer of Bauddhatexts and remains to this day the scriptural language of the TheravadaBauddha tradition in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Myanmar, etc. So Mahinda orwhoever else travelled to Sri Lanka would have carried the Pali textswith him. How is this related to Magadhi etc is something I cannotfathom.Pl note that in the Mahayana tradition as followed in China, Japan,etc, the texts are all in the local languages. Some of these aretranslations of the original Indian texts (typically Sanskrit Mahayanatexts) and some are texts composed in the local language. However, theTheravada tradition continues to follow the old Pali texts and thereis no local language canon as such.Regarding the Maharashtra cave inscriptions you refer to, if theinscriptions are by Bauddha bhikshu-s then it is natural that they arein Pali. It hardly means that the local language is Pali. Similarlythe use of Pali by some kings hardly proves anything - it may meanthat Pali was understood locally (as you seem to indicate) but it isalso probable that the kings were patrons of the Bauddha-s and henceused Pali as an official language.2008/12/9 kishore patnaik <kishorepatnaik09@ ...>:>> We have a passage in the Chullavagga (V.33.1) of Vinaya-pitaka, in which> Buddha distinctly ordains that his word was to be conveyed by Bhikshus in> their own dialects. Thus, it could be seen that Mahinda was certainly not a> Magadha. His matrimonial lineage does not support the Pali connection> either. However, it should be remembered that Pali and Magadhi share their> roots and it is possible that Mahinda's date and hence, Buddha's date is so> antique that there is not much of difference between Magadhi and Pali and> people were speaking both the languages, utilizing Pali for official> purposes. Thus, while Buddha has used Magadhi for preaching, it has been> replaced by Pali when it came to South India, being preached by Mahinda. We> can perfectly understand how in this gradual replacement a few Magadhisms of> the original must have escaped this weeding out.>--- End forwarded message ---

 

 

 

-- Should you find yourself the victim of other people's bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities, remember things could have been worse – you could be one of them!

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Dear Kathie, thanks for the mail. The alternative spelling could be pancha in the first word and shata in the second.regards,Kishore patnaik On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Katherine Brobeck <sivadasi wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Kishore,

Do you have any alternate spellings for that village ?

I'm

not getting anything in my extensive Gazetteers.

What is it near? Which modern state ?

Kathie

 

 

 

 

-- Should you find yourself the victim of other people's bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities, remember things could have been worse – you could be one of them!

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'Shatadru' is Sutlej R., 5 Sutlej s ? Is that the general area, or do you know?On Jan 31, 2009, at 6:05 AM, kishore patnaik wrote:Dear Kathie, thanks for the mail. The alternative spelling could be pancha in the first word and shata in the second.regards,Kishore patnaik On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Katherine Brobeck <sivadasi (AT) erols (DOT) com>wrote:Dear Kishore,Do you have any alternate spellings for that village ?I'mnot getting anything in my extensive Gazetteers.What is it near? Which modern state ?Kathie

[Guest guest]

The southern half of India was

called Dakshinapatha, which means path to the South. Already in a Vedic hymn, (RV

X.61.8) we meet with an expression dakshina pada meaning with southward foot

and used with reference to a man who is expelled to the south. This can not of

course denote the dakshinapatha or southern India as we understand it today but

rather the country lying beyond the world then inhabited by the Vedics. It was

in the Brahmana period , however, that they for the first time seem to have

crossed the Vindhyas range which separates the south from the north half of India. In the

Aitareya Brahmana, e.g. a prince named Bhima is designated as Vaidarbha or

prince of Vidarbha (VII, 17-18, also see Sankhayana sutra , XV, 26) This shows

that the "Aryans" had come down below the vindhyas and settled in Vidarbha

immediately to the south of this mountain range. The same Brahmanas represents

the sage Viswamitra to have cursed his sons to live on the borders of the province of Aryans. The descendants of these sons,

the Brahmana further tells us , formed the greater bulk of Dasyus and were

variously known as Andhras, Pundras, Sabaras, Pulindas and Mutibas.. Of these

the Andhras, Pulindas and Sabaras at any rate are known from Mbh, Ramayan and

Puranas to have been tribes of South India; and though the exact provinces

inhabited by them in the time of Aitareya brahmana can not be definitely

settled, it can not be for a moment be doubted that they lived to the south of

the Vindhyas and that the Aryans had already come into contact with these tribes.

[Guest guest]

Dear all, Please see this link http://www.geocities.com/kishore_future/Indiangeography.docbest regards, kishore patnaik