Guest guest Posted August 1, 1999 Report Share Posted August 1, 1999 On Sun, 1 Aug 1999, Vivekananda Centre wrote: > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > >There is a list which seeks to develop science/spirituality ideas. > >A few list members requested an explanation of the use of 'dream idea' in > >Hindu philosophy. This was the reply I gave:- > > > Thanks for the encouragement to contribute. > All religions that believe in God have to face some tricky questions: > > If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any suffering? > There can be no lame excuses. > We hear of standard replies like -- God testing us to make us perfect for > his Kingdom.... God gave us free will hence we are responsible.... all sorts > of answers given.........none too satisfying for me. ( My response is a > perfect God can click his fingers and make everything perfect from the word > go.....An almighty and all-compassionate God can never tolerate one living > thing suffering for one instant - let alone for long periods). There is one beggar who is asking for alms. But the begging pot has no bottom. So whenever someone gives him some alms they go away as soon as thay came. So the need is to build a bottom . Lord does sthat but wat if the beggar is too foolish to keep a pot with hollow bottom. In his ignorance he again breaks its bottom. So watever he gains he looses all. He remains beggar inspite lord giving him every second. Once a poor person helped a king. king gave him some diamonds so that he will use them n become rich. The poor person thought wat did king gave him just mere stones. He came home n gave the diamonds to children to play marbles. > > Or the other question all religions have to answer: - > Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create? > Again similar answers given ...none really that satisfying for me. > > Reply from rational Hinduism says, 'I do not know - why all this?' > > Still the question does not go away. So attempts have to be made to explain > this imperfect world and this creation. > > One interesting response is the Hindu thought that says, > " In a dream world you may feel pain -- you may see this and that-- good and > bad and all sorts of nonsense. It all appears very real and somehow > connected in the dream and yet when you wake up you say none of it was > real. " > > " So perhaps this world in a way is really a nightmare we are living through > (there can be some good bits in a nightmare too!). None of this is really > true. We were never born, never suffered, there was no evil, no good or bad, > all these ideas of perfection, and imperfection - were never there. > There was no creation. It is all a dream! " > > Let us develop this further by making a critical observation. > One can argue that this appears to be an escapist answer. We are denying > the problem. By denying this we are also denying this world and our own > Selves. May be then there is nothing left to hang on to. All is a dream and > the fact that we wake up and realise this is a dream is equally a dream > too!! When we run away from 'all this' as a dream we may have nothing left! > > This Hindu philosophy responds in a bold manner by saying:- > " Yes we have no proof that we can use or communicate in this 'dreamlike > world' that will show that this is really a dreamlike world and that there > is something more besides this dream " . In fact even this example of 'the > world being dreamlike' is also too limited an analogy and cannot be used to > extreme to explain or illustrate the underlying reality of what this is all > about. > (Hinduism explains, " this concepts of dream etc also occurs in this state of > dream so we cannot take this example too far either as it is too > limited --it too belongs to this dreamy state!). Yet we have very little > else to fall back on so some may want to use this limited example. > When we wake up we feel absolutely sure we are awake and the dream state was > just that --a dream. So in spirituality too we also 'Wake up' and then we > can make such claims (not before!) and become prophets who then have the > authority to guide mankind regarding the true nature of this universe and > ourselves. > > What do these prophets who 'have woken up' say? > They say the nature of this universe is absolutely divine, superb. > Our true nature is equally divine and equally superb. > They say, " Find your true Self (or the true nature of this reality that is > in front of us as the universe) - there is nothing more thrilling " . > > (In fact they say words: superb, divine, thrilling are too bland to really > convey what they are on about). > > So we sit and muse over such stuff. We can look up their lives to see if > they match upto what they are saying. Have they really tasted something > that thrilling? We wonder. > > jay > Vivekananda Centre London Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 1999 Report Share Posted August 1, 1999 In a message dated 99-08-01 08:33:48 EDT, vivekananda writes: << If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any suffering? There can be no lame excuses. >> I don't see the world as " imperfect " . It is just as it should be. Why suffering? Unfortunately, suffering seems to be the only teacher of compassion. What would the story of Cinderella be without the wicked step-sisters? <<Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create?>> Perhaps creation is something that just happens. Happens when all the right elements, forces, energies, gases, matter, space combine in all the right ways. We get into trouble when we think of god as something with attributes, with or without compassion, lonely, needing in some way. Can't god just be something that IS, that EXISTS, that has always been and will always be? Something that we, with our limited perceptive abilities, cannot phathom without giving a description, an attribute, a quality to? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 On Sun, 1 Aug 1999 FREESUE wrote: > FREESUE > > In a message dated 99-08-01 08:33:48 EDT, vivekananda writes: > > << If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any > suffering? > There can be no lame excuses. >> > > I don't see the world as " imperfect " . It is just as it should be. Why > suffering? Unfortunately, suffering seems to be the only teacher of > compassion. What would the story of Cinderella be without the wicked > step-sisters? > > <<Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create?>> > > Perhaps creation is something that just happens. Happens when all the right > elements, forces, energies, gases, matter, space combine in all the right > ways. We get into trouble when we think of god as something with attributes, > with or without compassion, lonely, needing in some way. Can't god just be > something that IS, that EXISTS, that has always been and will always be? > Something that we, with our limited perceptive abilities, cannot phathom > without giving a description, an attribute, a quality to? > > Sue Great thoughts Sue. When we ourselves dissolve our conscious in to universe or lord to know it n in that state we are beyond thoughts than how can lord who is always in that state have a desire or be imperfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 1999 Report Share Posted August 5, 1999 It seems that here we have summed up the conflict that all folks on a spiritual path must confront: our human fears and doubts versus what we can see with the subtler apparatus. Of course, we can't see this purely all the time, and so the struggle. And - since we have been talking about all is the teacher, all is God, why not doubt and struggle? How brave can we get in seeing the Divine even in that? Thomas Merton once said that a person who has never doubted has never had real faith either. In some states of mind, I feel too that the world is perfect as is. It seems self-evident. But in others, alas, it seems it could bear an awful lot of improvement! I am not sure that these views are truly opposites; perhaps they are two sides of the same divine coin? Anurag Goel wrote: > Anurag Goel <anurag > > On Sun, 1 Aug 1999 FREESUE wrote: > > > FREESUE > > > > In a message dated 99-08-01 08:33:48 EDT, vivekananda writes: > > > > << If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any > > suffering? > > There can be no lame excuses. >> > > > > I don't see the world as " imperfect " . It is just as it should be. Why > > suffering? Unfortunately, suffering seems to be the only teacher of > > compassion. What would the story of Cinderella be without the wicked > > step-sisters? > > > > > <<Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create?>> > > > > Perhaps creation is something that just happens. Happens when all the right > > elements, forces, energies, gases, matter, space combine in all the right > > ways. We get into trouble when we think of god as something with attributes, > > with or without compassion, lonely, needing in some way. Can't god just be > > something that IS, that EXISTS, that has always been and will always be? > > Something that we, with our limited perceptive abilities, cannot phathom > > without giving a description, an attribute, a quality to? > > > > Sue > > Great thoughts Sue. When we ourselves dissolve our conscious in to > universe > or lord to know it n in that state we are beyond thoughts than how can > lord who is always in that state have a desire or be imperfect. > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > ONElist members are using Shared Files in great ways! > > Are you? If not, see our homepage for details. > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 1999 Report Share Posted August 6, 1999 very true. Nice thoughts On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > It seems that here we have summed up the conflict that all folks on a spiritual > path > must confront: our human fears and doubts versus what we can see with the subtler > apparatus. Of course, we can't see this purely all the time, and so the struggle. > > And - since we have been talking about all is the teacher, all is God, why not > doubt > and struggle? How brave can we get in seeing the Divine even in that? Thomas Merton > > once said that a person who has never doubted has never had real faith either. > > In some states of mind, I feel too that the world is perfect as is. It seems > self-evident. > But in others, alas, it seems it could bear an awful lot of improvement! I am not > sure > that these views are truly opposites; perhaps they are two sides of the same divine > coin? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hi, I had a weird dream last night. In brief, I was in an old fort, which had a water reservoir kind of a tank. It was a group of 20-30 guys. We were having a picnic of sorts. Next my dream took me to an inner chamber (its all in ruins now). There I saw a woman with hair open (don't remember other details). Her face was contorted and I vaguely remember seeing blood. I immediately realized she was going to kill us all and I started swimming away from that chamber, though in real life I don't know how to swim. I turned back to see her coming out and killing all the guys. The guys, being macho, thought they could overpower her but I could somehow sense the impending death. I swam across to the other side and climbed out. In my head everything is as clear as a movie. Then began a long chase. Her chasing me. I remember where all I hid and what all narrow passages I went through.I was successful in evading her and went into another courtyard. Then I saw her rise in the air to get an aerial view. And she spotted me. Then she floated down directly in front of me. Till now I was running away from her, frightened and sweating. But now I don't know what came over me, I started smiling. I was afraid no more. Not afraid of dying and neither afraid of her. I remember now I noticed her clearly. Her hair was slightly curled. She was fair and there was lots of blood on her face. She also used a sharp edged weapon to slice off legs, which I saw falling when I was inside hiding and running on the staircase. To end the dream, she pardoned me. She didn't kill me. I don't know why or what happened after that. I woke up suddenly and remembered everything clearly, which I rarely do with my dreams. I tried to associate the events in my dream to something spiritually significant but was unable to do so. The dream has been playing in my head since last 24 hours. -- Varun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2008 Report Share Posted December 6, 2008 Just from your description, you might be a devotee of some aspect of the divine mother. Only you can find its meaning, since it was directed at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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