Medical Science

[Guest guest]

There is one question I would like to ask those involved in medical

science today.

Why is it that doctors today are still telling adults and teenagers

that it is against human nature to practise celibacy and that there

is something wrong with those people who are celibate?

 

Daksha.

[Guest guest]

I was reading abt celibacy in relation to " Bhishama Pitaamaha " that he was

able to fight with all perfection even in old age due to his practise of

celibacy.

 

May because those doctors doesn't know n haven't feel wat devotional love

or wat love is ?

 

 

On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, daksha patel wrote:

 

> " daksha patel " <anjubigeyes

>

>

>

>

> There is one question I would like to ask those involved in medical

> science today.

> Why is it that doctors today are still telling adults and teenagers

> that it is against human nature to practise celibacy and that there

> is something wrong with those people who are celibate?

>

> Daksha.

>

>

> ------

> Have you visited the new ONElist home page lately?

> http://www.ONElist.com

> ONElist: The Leading e-mail list and community service on the Internet!

> ------

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

[Guest guest]

NAMASTE

A known medical fact regarding sexual activities is that it requires the most

blood of all the activities that the body hgoes through. It is a release and

a tremendous waste of energy because of this fact. Why do doctors and

psychologists say that it is not good to stay celibate? They think that

first of all lust is natural and that it is not good to go against nature.

Second, they think it is unhealthy psychologically not to release this

energy. About lust being natural: " The goal is to manifest this Divinity

within by controlling nature, external and internal.  Do this either by work,

or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy - by one, or more, or all of

these - and be free. " said Swami Vivekananda. People are SLAVES to lust and

have no self control. We mus be the masters and lust must be the slave. The

hidden insentive behind all these lustful desires is to gain final

contentment. But does the fulfillment of any worldly desire bring this?

 

The fools don't the reason why celibacy is needed. What happens to all that

energy that is not released and wasted in sexual activity? Well, a

TREMENDOUS power of energy builds up after some time. This energy, when

directed toward God, is the unbelievably sharp and vigorous power that takes

one straight to God, the only source of Fullness Completeness and Bliss in

Whom the satisfaction of all thirst is satisfied.

 

Should we trust these well-educated doctors? Part of the answer is in the

life of Swami Vivekananda (and thousands of other realized men and women).

He had such power that his audiences were like silly putty in his hands at

one point. He had the power to work incessantly, do very complex physics

problems in is head, go without sleep, without food, live in 0 degree

weather, and such adeptness in meditation that he would lose all outer

consciousness. Do you think that such power comes with animalistic and

lustful desires that these foolish doctors claim to be healthy? Should we

trust a few doctors OR thousands and thousands of men and women and

incarnations who have SEEN the Truth, who have SEEN God, and who give us this

advice about chastity for our own good? The choice is up to the individual.

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Om Lala

[Guest guest]

There is a difference between lust n sex. If we compare it too hunger for

food. Than lust will be somthing like one who lives for eating. And sex

( or don't wat term should be used ) will be something like food taken

peacefully n naturally.

 

Yes psychology n ignorane is wat lust is all abt . When one doesn't know

how to deal with psychological problems one temp. way will be not to hold

this energy back for someone who wants to rise above lust.

 

I think w/o devotional love n mediation it is difficult to understand or

control this energy.

 

U r very right abt wat u have said abt contentment.

 

If one tries to uderstand " Kudalini " frm diffrent ways than one can

easily understand the power of celibacy n related issues. I think when

" Shree Ramakrishna Paramhansa " touched the center of Vivekanand's chest

by foot at that time he gave the energy to Vivekanand which arosed his

" Kundalini " .

 

 

On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 Vidya123 wrote:

 

> Vidya123

>

> NAMASTE

> A known medical fact regarding sexual activities is that it requires the most

> blood of all the activities that the body hgoes through. It is a release and

> a tremendous waste of energy because of this fact. Why do doctors and

> psychologists say that it is not good to stay celibate? They think that

> first of all lust is natural and that it is not good to go against nature.

> Second, they think it is unhealthy psychologically not to release this

> energy. About lust being natural: " The goal is to manifest this Divinity

> within by controlling nature, external and internal.  Do this either by work,

> or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy - by one, or more, or all of

> these - and be free. " said Swami Vivekananda. People are SLAVES to lust and

> have no self control. We mus be the masters and lust must be the slave. The

> hidden insentive behind all these lustful desires is to gain final

> contentment. But does the fulfillment of any worldly desire bring this?

>

> The fools don't the reason why celibacy is needed. What happens to all that

> energy that is not released and wasted in sexual activity? Well, a

> TREMENDOUS power of energy builds up after some time. This energy, when

> directed toward God, is the unbelievably sharp and vigorous power that takes

> one straight to God, the only source of Fullness Completeness and Bliss in

> Whom the satisfaction of all thirst is satisfied.

>

> Should we trust these well-educated doctors? Part of the answer is in the

> life of Swami Vivekananda (and thousands of other realized men and women).

> He had such power that his audiences were like silly putty in his hands at

> one point. He had the power to work incessantly, do very complex physics

> problems in is head, go without sleep, without food, live in 0 degree

> weather, and such adeptness in meditation that he would lose all outer

> consciousness. Do you think that such power comes with animalistic and

> lustful desires that these foolish doctors claim to be healthy? Should we

> trust a few doctors OR thousands and thousands of men and women and

> incarnations who have SEEN the Truth, who have SEEN God, and who give us this

> advice about chastity for our own good? The choice is up to the individual.

>

> Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

>

> Om Lala

>

> ------

> Looking for an easy, effective way to research an important topic?

>

> Joining a ONElist community is your answer.

> ------

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

[Guest guest]

[This message contained attachments]

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil,

 

U r right about when saying that take the life as it is. But

it is not right to live a life with lust n greed in ones mind. Free the

feelings , expressions of lust n distortions from sex. Let it be an

emotion like other emotions. It shouldn't be that it overpowers you.

 

Moreover in some sadhanas it is required that celibacy be practiced. For

the energy needs to be conserved n diverted upwards.

 

True Love n Devotional Love are completely free from any kind of sexual

feelings. Word like sex exists no where near to it. Experience Devotional

Love than one will understand wat love is n wat sex is.

 

A sanyasi is not someone who leaves the world. He is someone whose

mind doesn't attach to the wordly things even living a totally married

life Just like Shree Ramchandra n Shree Krishna or Rajaa Janaka. Lord

wants us to be that.

 

A Brahamchaari doesn't mean someone who will not marry but someone whose

devotion to lord is not perturbed even after marrying.

 

N remember nothin is impossible if u know u r infinite not finite.

Our weaknesses n failings do have a part to play but don't sit with

them saying they have some part to play. A part to play is to rise above

these weaknesses n that is something we should try for. Try n try even if

u fail for some day u will succeed. When night is the darkest followiing

it will be the brightest day.

 

 

> Coming to self control, I believe excessive self control could lead to

> complications both psychological and social. Let us be our natural selves.

> Let us not suppress any aspect of our feeling. We are the children of Holy

> Mother and Guru Maharaj. They will take care of us. In one of the aratrikam

> hymns addressed to Mother, there is a beautiful verse, " Snehenna Badhnaasi

> Manosmadiyam, Doshaan aseshaan Saguni Karoshi, She converts all our

> doshaas(faults/sins) into good qualities. They are so gracious, and will

> thay not show us our path?

 

How can the self be controlled ? Wat is self ? Is it mind ?

 

I think the self u r mentioning is the wavering ignorant mind. Meditation

, Mantraa Japaa, Yoga, Devotional Love is something that controls the

self. Sure knowledge doies have a part to play in self control but

knowledge w/o the above practices can go like trash in a drain when one is

faced with the situations of practical life.The control of self means

harmony between mind,body n soul. Self control is not restriction. Self

control is natural.

 

We are the chidren of lord n tat's why one has to rise so that one can

take care of others. Give everything in Lord's hand but keep on working

towards betterment.

 

 

One has to cross the river to reach from one bank to the other. There is

no escape. Lord helps those who helps themselves. Don't sit idle thinking

lord will come to help u or will convert all ur (faults) in to good

qualities . If u want the Lord to take ten steps towards u , U have to

take at least one step towards him. Swami Vivekanand didn't sat thinking

Lord will come n show himself to him. He went ahead on the search n when

the time was right Lord appeared in form of Shree Ramakrishna Pramahansa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> For the present let us " demystify " spirituality and thus give all types of

> people a possibility to be rational and spiritual, wherever he is. Let us

> not complicate matters any further for the moment. Let god give all of us

> paths which are easy for his children to follow. If it were a prolonged

> struggle, except for a few, the majority would have given up half way down

> the road. But this is not so. There are so many silent and good people we

> come across in our day to day life and thousands more who have come into

> the lime light. They all have spirituality in them in varying degrees.

>

 

All are alike no one is exception. Every ones body is same in proportion ,

everyone has mind , everyone has soul. It's just ones thinking that needs

to be changed. Think one is infinite n not that one is finite.

Life hasn't been easy for anyone. People like Vivekanands n Satgurus are

one who struggle most every moment of their life. Life is nothin but

struggle. Don't escape from struggle , face it , enjoy struggle. Don't

fear from the thought of giving up.

Everywhere where u see something good

happening it is nothin but Lord helping one to remain good n helping

others to become good.

Everyone who is silent is not with eternal silence.

One may be good at one situation n at other situation bad.

the goal is soul tat will remain unperturbed in any situation n not the

people of varying spiritual degrees.

 

 

> Let us have full knowledge of our actions. Let us have joy and have a zest

> for living. Joy, it is said, is as infectious as a disease. If you are

> complete and joyous, the joy will spread to those around you. Look around

> and enjoy the beauty of nature and appreciate how wonderful and gracious

> the creator of all this glory is. Let the love spring up spontaneously in

> our hearts.

 

Very True!

 

Coming to think of it Guru Maharaj had his first experience of

> bliss when he watched a flock of Geese flying across the black monsoon

> clouds. Swamiji also had such an experience while travelling somewhere( I

> am not able to recollect). Ramana Maharshi had the knowledge out of a dream

> that he was dying.Gautam Buddha was a prince and householder before he

> renounced everything. The examples are too many.

 

True when u r near the border just a step in nedded to cross it but the

same is not true for someone who is far away from that border he has to

take many such steps to reach the border.

 

True it's not only by meditation,yoga etc. that one learns simple life

experiences can teach much. Life is nothin but a Sadhana.

 

So, Struggle may not

> assure us of reaching whatever goal we are looking for. Let us accept

> ourselves completely with our good and " bad " qualities as God's children

> and let us be.

>

 

Yes Let us accept ourselves completely with our good and " bad " qualities

as God's children and let us be n work towards removing the bad qualities

in us.

 

 

> I believe spirituality should bring tangible good to everybody around you

> in this very life. I would like to end this message with an excerpt from

> Swamiji's message:

>

> " The first sign that you are becoming religious is that you are becoming

> cheerful.When a man is gloomy, that may be dyspepsia, but it is not

> religion....Misery is caused by sin, and by no other cause.....If you have

> a clouded face, do not go out that day, shut yourself up in your room. What

> right have you to carry this disease out into the world.. "

>

>

 

 

 

I will not like to shut myself in room for someone's smiling face can make

my face cheerful. I will like to go out n feel wat cheerfulness is n work

towards becoming a cheerful face.

 

When one steps on the path of spirituality it may be filled with dark

clouds in comparison to one's past material life but clouds don't remain

for ever soon they will leave n there will be rains n sunrays.

 

>

> with love and prayers

>

>

>

>

> Sunil Sudhakar

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Anurag Goel,

 

I read with thoughtfulness your e-mail in response to Sunil's posting on lust

and greed.

 

I did not interpret Sunil's writing as an advertisement to live a life of

lust and greed, but rather to live a more natural life, to allow the energies

of God that flow within us, to flow freely and allow them expression. We do

not have to live in extremes --- either lust or celibacy.

 

Celibacy must emerge naturally, as a yearning from deep within our hearts and

souls. Otherwise, it is not celibacy and sooner or later our sex drive will

find expression and one can become obsessed with sex as I have often seen in

celibate communities. Sex is God-given and we were all created through a

sexual act, a divine union between a man and woman. It is not dirty or evil,

but a God-given gift. To artificially suppress this expression of God is not

true celibacy. We must evolve or devolve (whatever the case may be) into

celibacy as a natural part of our spiritual process.

 

Not all who follow the spiritual path need to be celibate. As my guru says,

" if your heart desires marriage, then you should marry. If your heart

desires celibacy, then that is the way. " We must listen to our hearts. God

dwells within us as us and if our spiritual practices are in order, we can

trust the indwelling God to guide and direct us. It is not for me to say

what another's path must be. I trust the God within me and within others.

Ultimately, we are all headed in the same direction since God is truly

running the show.

 

Let us not look at sex as corrupt and evil. Remember that there is no place

where God is not. God exists in the very expression of love between a man

and a woman and in that expression emerges a new life, a human being, a

manifestation of God,

 

If a person has taken Sannyas then a vow of celibacy is appropriate. But for

the rest of us (most of us), celibacy is not a requirement to KNOW GOD. For

some of us, it is important to be " in the world " , in order that we may

understand the human condition. Through that understanding, we may be of

service to the Lord in a way that those who are in a cave of their own

thoughts and beliefs and " spirituality " cannot.

 

I was celibate for twelve years and in that state could not for the life of

me understand the complications of relationships. I viewed relationships as

taking one away from God. I had judgements about the " stuff " human beings

go through in relationships. Through venturing back into the world, I have

come to know myself and, therefore, others since relationships are a teacher

about us and our human beingness.

 

Armed with the knowledge of Vedanta through years of spiritual practices, I

have come to understand others in a way that my enforced celibacy could never

reveal. My own pain, my own struggles, have helped me to grow closer to God

since my compassion for others has been refined in a way that celibacy could

never bring. Compassion is God in action.

 

To love another is to love God since God is all there is.

 

Om Shanti!

 

Jody Hoelle

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/5/99 1:48:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

JodyHolly1 writes:

 

<< Not all who follow the spiritual path need to be celibate. As my guru

says,

" if your heart desires marriage, then you should marry. If your heart

desires celibacy, then that is the way. " We must listen to our hearts.

 

If a person has taken Sannyas then a vow of celibacy is appropriate. But for

the rest of us (most of us), celibacy is not a requirement to KNOW GOD. >>

 

God cannot be realized without COMPLETE PURITY of thought deed and word.

Look in any scripture and you will find this fact. Also if one is not

celibate, one cannot build up the energy (ojas) that is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL

to realize God nor can one develop the tremendous discriminating power as

sharp as a knife like Swami Vivekananda had which is also ABSOLUTELY

ESSENTIAL to realize God which is the goal. I am not a fanatic on celibacy

BUT every teacher I have asked every scripture, lecture, spiritual biography

emphasizes this emphatically. It is just the truth. The truth is one has

to work hard to realize God and not always go by the desires of the " heart " .

this is not to say we should suppress them, because as you said they would

come back up again, but instead destroy them little by little with

discrimination. The lives of THOUSANDS of saints and THOUSANDS of scriptures

back these principles up and state that one cannot realize God without

complete purity of THOUGHT WORD AND DEED.

 

Hari Om!

 

-Om Lala

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/5/99 3:53:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Vidya123

writes:

 

<< COMPLETE PURITY of thought deed and word. >>

Is sex IMPURE; is NO sex PURE? I quote from " Thoughts on the Gita " by Swami

Vivekananda:

 

" Attach yourselves to the Lord and to nothing else, because everything else

is unreal. Attachment to the unreal will bring misery. There is only one

Existence that is real, only one Life in which there is nother object nor

[subject].

 

But unattached love will not hurt you. Do anything ... marry, have children

.... Do anything you like ... nothing wil hurt you... "

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

My point is that purity is in the heart. When I speak of the " heart " I am

not speaking about romance or flights of fancy. I am speaking about the

heart through which God speaks, our intuition, our indwelling Divinity. When

THAT HEART is pure, then it matters not whether a person is celibate or

married.

 

Who is to be the judge of the purity of another's Thought, Word and Deed?

You said that celibacy is the ONLY WAY to realize God. There are many ways

to realize God and celibacy may be the way for YOU. I honor that for YOU.

One thing that Swamiji inisted on was respecting and honoring all the

different paths to God. That is the nature of the Vedantin.

 

A person can be celibate and have an impure mind; a person can be married and

sexually intimate and have a very pure heart. Sex is not an impure act in

and of itself. A person can practice celibacy from an impure place.

 

I question the use of the word " impure " in relation to sex. What is there

about sex that is impure? Which aspect of it is impure?

 

Jody Hoelle

[Guest guest]

My dearest Anurag

 

Not for a moment am I trying to contest what is said in the scriptures or

what you say. I just wanted to say that all the " vices " need not be given

too much importance. I am a reluctant writer to this or any list because of

the limitations of words which cannot fully express one's feelings. Anyway

I shall set about the task as I am now involved.

 

As regards god realization, I am still in the process of finding out about

what it really means. For the moment, I wish to enjoy whatever god has

given me. I believe, renunciation should not be forced upon me. It should

happen naturally, just as a ripe fruit drops of by itself, so must our

desires. This is my feeling.

 

I have an open mind and do not wish to influence what you feel intensely

about, because you know yourself best. And you also understand that

argumenting does not lead us anywhere. It is enough if our message strikes

harmony with a few hearts around the world. That is the very purpose of

such mail lists. If there are genuine doubts, we shall help one another(

hopefully). There is no doubt that Sankara's and Vivekananda's lived a life

of celebacy and were successful. They were great persons and were born

celebates.

 

For the rest of the people, as Jody says, " We must evolve or devolve

(whatever the case may be) into celibacy as a natural part of our spiritual

process. "

 

Anurag, there is a very interesting story which you can read at your

leasure. It is a bit long but attempts to say what I want to and there is a

lot of harmony with life in it. It is from the philist.

 

love and prayers

 

 

Sunil

 

The Purple Flamingo and the Ostrich

 

by Amber, copyright c 1992

 

There was once in Aud the most beautiful and most rare of birds, a purple

flamingo. A rare flower of her race was she, blue gold of wing, graceful of

stride, and quiet as the falling dew. In all of Aud none could compare with

the gentleness of her spirit or the calmness of her gaze. Across the width

and breadth of Aud's hot Savannah summers, kindness and understanding

flowed in her wake.

 

But Aud is a land of twists and turns, exotic and strange, where fate like

a silent panther stalks the night, seeking the unwary. And all alike must

heed the play of life and death, lest the cry in the dark be their own.

 

Now in this land of joy and of sorrow there lived an ostrich. He was a

proud bird. A runner and a scout for the flock, searching the land for

jungle beasts with predacious inclinations, warning his fellows of danger,

and planning the strategies of defence. He was a respected member of the

flock, with ambitions of advancement and hopes for the prettiest of wives

and the loudest of children. >

 

One morn' the ostrich arose from a bed of ferns and willows to a sound

different from all others. Toward the rising light, before the sun's red

glow, a swoop of birds parlayed with the dawn. Pink and lovely, calling to

one another over the mists, the flamingos were gliding to their feeding

grounds in the distant marsh lands. The fires of the sun lit their wings as

they danced and soared, heedless of the groundstuck watcher before them.

And for that watcher a single thought occurred: Though he could run like

the wind, he could not fly. For an ostrich, the skies were forever closed,

and the sun a distant and unattainable light to which he could never

aspire.

 

Tears streamed from his proud face as he watched the flamingos depart. Such

beauty! Such freedom of movement! To soar with one's fellows, high above

the Savannah, sailing high and free through air and light and sky. Oh! To

be forever above the dangers of the ground, high above fears of sudden,

ugly death. " But for me " , he thought, " such joyful crimson soaring is

forever barred " . And for the first time in his life the ostrich felt

incomplete and alone.

 

The ostrich did not suddenly leave his responsibilities to the flock to

seek out a way by which he too could soar with the flamingos of the dawn.

Nor did he struggle through pain and tears, overcoming tremendous obstacles

until at long last, after much travail and difficulty, he found the

wondrous purple flamingo who answered his life's longings. No. This story

is not like that at all.

 

The ostrich may have been proud, but he was proud with justification - he

was no fool. He knew that many might die if he abrogated his

responsibilities as scout to the flock. Though his heart ached with the

pain of denied flight, he knew he must remain. As he watched the flamingos

vanish toward the marshes that red red morning, he realized this: If he

pursued the mystery of flight he would probably fail, for his body, while

superb for racing across the grasslands was simply not designed for

soaring. He knew that his place in Aud was guiding the flock away from

danger, and helping his sisters and his brothers defend the little ones.

 

Yet he wondered: " Why am I saddened by seeing such beauty? I cannot fly.

Why do I need more? "

 

So the ostrich resolved that each day he would set aside one hour to try in

any way he could to find the answer to his question. At first he sought the

wisdom and advice of his friends. But although they were kind and listened

carefully to his questions, they had no answers for him.

 

Next he sought out the very old, the elders of the flock. " Perhaps their

vast experience will provide an answer " , he thought.

 

But they only urged him to forget such foolishness, and attend to his

duties to the flock.

 

In desperation, he decided to seek the wisdom of the great killers of the

grasslands - the tigers. For he had seen the care and cunning of their

kind. Surely such cunning also bred wisdom. The feline hunters were quick

and fearsome. Death at their paws was swift and sure. But as a scout, he

knew their ways, and knew that after a kill they were less likely to attack

at his approach. He waited many weeks, until finally an opportunity

presented itself: he came upon a tiger satiated after the fresh kill of a

young zebra foal. As he carefully approached the circle of the kill, the

tiger watched with benign indifference.

 

" Greetings great one " , he called to the tiger. " And to you, O

groundling bird. "

" I have come to seek the wisdom of your council. Will you hear my

question? "

" A strange request from one such as you, " grunted the tiger. " But the sun

is warm, and my belly full. Ask away, and I shall give what > council I

may. "

 

" Thank you, great one. My question is this. I have watched the freedom of

the flamingos as they fill the sky with their passing. And I too have

wished to soar the heavens. Yet I am a runner and though swift, am not

capable of flight. This is the way of the world, and I accept it. Yet what

I crave to understand is this: Why do I yet yearn for flight

and the freedom it brings? Why do I wish more than my lot? "

The tiger growled at this, and rose up on his haunches. He lunged at the

ostrich roaring power and death at the terrified bird. The ostrich froze in

the power of that roar, shivering before the glare of those immense eyes of

fire. The ostrich stood unmoving, seeing his death before him.

 

Then the tiger yawned, licked its lips, and settled back down with a

somewhat amused expression on his golden face. After a few moments, the

tiger spoke:

 

" Where are your questions now, foolish bird? That is my answer to you. Now

go. "

 

Away ran the ostrich, running, running; desperate to get away. In his ears

rang the sound of the tiger's laughter. Yet even as he ran in terror and

mortification, he wondered what the tiger had meant.

 

The years passed. The ostrich now had a pretty bride and a flurry of young.

He no longer scouted, but had become a leader of the flock, renowned for

his fairness and his wisdom. He had pursued his inner question: Why did he

want more? Why did he wish to fly? But now there was a difference. Years of

pondering had helped him to see the great gift that the tiger had given.

For he had found that in that instant of surprise and terror, for a brief

moment his mind had quieted. His questions had, in that moment of quiet,

ceased.

 

In the silence of the tiger's roar the need for answers had vanished. The

years came and went; the flock grew and the ostrich aged. Yet unlike his

fellows he found his mind clear, unencumbered and free. He had become a

venerated elder. His wife had become a shaman and healer of the flock, and

some of his children had themselves become scouts. In his old age he had

found a freedom for which he had never sought. His mind was clear and

sharp, his thoughts free.

 

One bright morning as he stood looking toward the rising sun, the flamingos

appeared again in their glory, as they had so long ago. But this time he

walked slowly toward them, until he stood below as they sailed red and

golden in the light above him.

 

" I have seen you before " , said a soft voice behind him. " Yes Mistress, and

I have seen you many times over the years, flying with your flock. I have

heard of your grace and your goodness; that you spread joy and wisdom with

your passage. "

 

" Yet you have never sought me out? "

 

" No. Thanks to the kindness of my teacher - a venerable tiger - so many

years ago. Through him I learned how to explore within myself. I have found

my heart's desire within my own being. "

 

" And what was it you found, gentle ostrich? "

 

" Only myself, Mistress. " . He paused a moment in thought. " I knew that I

could not fly, as I yearned to do, nor could I relinquish my

responsibilities to the flock. But I was unhappy. So there was only one

place left for me to turn, and that was within myself. The tiger showed me

how to look. He showed me that whatever emotion or feeling was dominant in

my mind temporarily suppressed all other needs or

thoughts. "

 

" So you knew that even the strongest yearning, your need to fly, was

temporary? "

 

" Yes, and therefore it couldn't have been as vital as I had supposed. In my

terror at the tiger's roar, all my deepest yearnings temporarily

vanished... so I understood that they were passing things only. Instead I

wanted something permanent and lasting. "

 

" How did you come to realize that the only thing that lasts is the quiet of

the mind? "

 

" I simply stopped chasing after that which was transitory. Then to my

wonder and joy, I found that all that was left was my sense of being. My

own consciousness. "

 

" But not a consciousness of something...? " " No, the simple fact of

consciousness itself. "

" Ah. Come with me now gentle ostrich. Together we will follow the

light. "

 

Then as the sun rose red and golden on the land of Aud, the purple flamingo

and the ostrich flew together over the Savannah toward the dawn.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/6/99 1:16:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Sunil_Sudhakar writes:

 

<< For the rest of the people, as Jody says, " We must evolve or devolve

(whatever the case may be) into celibacy as a natural part of our spiritual

process. " >>

After thinking deeply on the subject i agree. One can be outwardly celibate

and inwardly lustful. It should be natural but a little effort and

discrimination do help. Sorry for coming so strong on the matter.

Inspiration is the only thing that really matters, everything else comes

after one has that. This is one thing that the list has really OPENED my

eyes about. The idea of having desires naturally drop off is something i as

well as others often forget.

 

Thank you for making me learn something very valuable.

 

 

Yours in Sri Ramakrishna,

 

Om Lala

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 5 May 1999 JodyHolly1 wrote:

 

> JodyHolly1

>

> Dear Anurag Goel,

>

> I read with thoughtfulness your e-mail in response to Sunil's posting on lust

> and greed.

 

 

>

> I did not interpret Sunil's writing as an advertisement to live a life of

> lust and greed, but rather to live a more natural life, to allow the energies

> of God that flow within us, to flow freely and allow them expression. We do

> not have to live in extremes --- either lust or celibacy.

 

If these energies of God doesn't deviate a yogi within us than do watever

one likes. But do look for does something shake the yogi in one . If yes

than how to remain unperturbed.

 

>

> Celibacy must emerge naturally, as a yearning from deep within our hearts and

> souls. Otherwise, it is not celibacy and sooner or later our sex drive will

> find expression and one can become obsessed with sex as I have often seen in

> celibate communities.

 

wat u say is true . If they had known wat the celibacy can lead to they

would have been at peace in celibacy n may be that would have led them to

be a yogi w/o celibacy.

 

Sex is God-given and we were all created through a

> sexual act, a divine union between a man and woman. It is not dirty or evil,

> but a God-given gift.

 

Very True!

 

To artificially suppress this expression of God is not

> true celibacy. We must evolve or devolve (whatever the case may be) into

> celibacy as a natural part of our spiritual process.

>

 

If there is lust in mind suppress it for one won't be able to understand

wat devotional or true love is till one knows that love is separate from

sex. One should know that sex n lust r different.

 

Love generates from heart. Does sexual feelings generate from heart ?

 

 

> Not all who follow the spiritual path need to be celibate. As my guru says,

> " if your heart desires marriage, then you should marry. If your heart

> desires celibacy, then that is the way. " We must listen to our hearts.

 

True follow wat appeals you for w/o satisfying that appeal how will one

know truth.

 

The thing is that one should be unperturbed irrespective of marriage or

celibacy.

 

God

> dwells within us as us and if our spiritual practices are in order, we can

> trust the indwelling God to guide and direct us.

 

There is a demon also in one. N hope the demon is not desiring something.

 

 

It is not for me to say

> what another's path must be.

 

True!

 

> I trust the God within me and within others.

 

True! Who is the God within one n others ?

 

> Ultimately, we are all headed in the same direction since God is truly

> running the show.

 

True! Even if one deviates 1000 times one will return to the right path.

Lord is running the show but deeds n thoughts are ours.

 

>

> Let us not look at sex as corrupt and evil.

 

Very True! The corrupt is the deviating mind.

 

> Remember that there is no place

> where God is not. God exists in the very expression of love between a man

> and a woman and in that expression emerges a new life, a human being, a

> manifestation of God,

 

True but there is no place where there is no evil. Isn't lord both Good n

bad. Will have to think about whether i can call sex as love ?

 

A person free from lust, greed , discriminations , inferior or superior

complex, revenge, jealousy, dvesh(I don't know english translation for it

rather i don't know wat does this emotion means. I think

it is something like " difference of opinion within one

or with others n which makes one sad),hatred,mistrust, n all other

negative things......... or in other words if a true yogi n yogin go for

it than it can be love. Or in other words somones who r all love,someones

whose every atom is drenched in love go for it than it can be that is

love.

 

 

Wat u say abt emergence of new life is positive n divine.

 

>

> If a person has taken Sannyas then a vow of celibacy is appropriate.

 

> But for

> the rest of us (most of us), celibacy is not a requirement to KNOW GOD.

 

can be true if the non-celibacy doesn't perturbs one devotion to lord.

 

> For

> some of us, it is important to be " in the world " , in order that we may

> understand the human condition. Through that understanding, we may be of

> service to the Lord in a way that those who are in a cave of their own

> thoughts and beliefs and " spirituality " cannot.

 

Neither someone who leads a total married wordly life understands wat life

is nor does someone who sits in a cave understands wat life is. To

understand life one's life should include both aspects.

 

everyone is in service to lord watever one may do.

 

>

> I was celibate for twelve years

 

That's great!

 

and in that state could not for the life of

> me understand the complications of relationships.I viewed relationships as

> taking one away from God. I had judgements about the " stuff " human beings

> go through in relationships. Through venturing back into the world, I have

> come to know myself and, therefore, others since relationships are a teacher

> about us and our human beingness.

>

 

If one attaches oneself to relationships the problem arises . one should

be involved in relationships but should be unattached . U r right one can

only feel the complications of the wordly life only by being in it.

True that wordly life puts many test before us n lets us know wat we are

in reality.

 

Well i am not married so can't say much abt how will celibacy influence

the married life.

 

> Armed with the knowledge of Vedanta through years of spiritual practices, I

> have come to understand others in a way that my enforced celibacy could never

> reveal.

 

One should know wat good the celibacy does n should also be able to feel

it to remain celibate.

 

Wat u say about ur experience can be true for you. But i don't think

celibacy stops one from knowing something.

 

It is said that the experience one has during sex is same as in samadhi.

Difference is that experience of sex is momentary n that of samadhi

is sort of permanent. One loses energy in sex , but gains it in samadhi.

I don't know if one can divert energy upwards during sex.

 

My own pain, my own struggles, have helped me to grow closer to God

> since my compassion for others has been refined in a way that celibacy could

> never bring. Compassion is God in action.

>

 

Wat u say is true as we understand others better if we ourselves has

experienced that pain. But i feel to feel the pain of others wat one needs

is true n open heart. If one can feel the pain of others in one's heart

that's enough.

 

> To love another is to love God since God is all there is.

 

Very True!

 

>

> Om Shanti!

>

> Jody Hoelle

>

[Guest guest]

ur answer reminded me something concerning kundalini.

 

depending on where the kundalini energy is present in one in kundalini

awakening stage. One is affected with that kind of thoughts. n if one has

some faulty thoughts relating to some emotion than one has to change one's

mantality for overcoming those thoughts . Otherwise all faulty thoughts

keep popping up. In other words if one has sins in one kundalini won't

rise.

 

Sexual thoughts may arise in one when kundalini energy is present in lower

2 or 3 chakraas . For the energy affects the organs which r linked with

those chakraas.

 

But when the kundalini energy reaches heart ( Anaahat Chakraa) one is

filled with all love one starts knowing wat dhyaan is. One can feel the

warmthness n peace of energy in one's heart.

 

If one gets involved in sex the attention will be shifted to lower

chakraas again n will stop the rising of energy upwards which has to reach

" Sahasraar Chakra " ultimately to know lord n to be one with Lord.

 

 

 

On Wed, 5 May 1999 Vidya123 wrote:

 

> Vidya123

>

> In a message dated 5/5/99 1:48:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> JodyHolly1 writes:

>

> << Not all who follow the spiritual path need to be celibate. As my guru

> says,

> " if your heart desires marriage, then you should marry. If your heart

> desires celibacy, then that is the way. " We must listen to our hearts.

>

> If a person has taken Sannyas then a vow of celibacy is appropriate. But for

> the rest of us (most of us), celibacy is not a requirement to KNOW GOD. >>

>

> God cannot be realized without COMPLETE PURITY of thought deed and word.

> Look in any scripture and you will find this fact. Also if one is not

> celibate, one cannot build up the energy (ojas) that is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL

> to realize God nor can one develop the tremendous discriminating power as

> sharp as a knife like Swami Vivekananda had which is also ABSOLUTELY

> ESSENTIAL to realize God which is the goal. I am not a fanatic on celibacy

> BUT every teacher I have asked every scripture, lecture, spiritual biography

> emphasizes this emphatically. It is just the truth. The truth is one has

> to work hard to realize God and not always go by the desires of the " heart " .

> this is not to say we should suppress them, because as you said they would

> come back up again, but instead destroy them little by little with

> discrimination. The lives of THOUSANDS of saints and THOUSANDS of scriptures

> back these principles up and state that one cannot realize God without

> complete purity of THOUGHT WORD AND DEED.

>

> Hari Om!

>

> -Om Lala

>

>

>

>

> ------

> The possibilities are endless!

>

> ONElist has something for everyone!

> ------

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 5 May 1999 JodyHolly1 wrote:

 

> JodyHolly1

>

> In a message dated 5/5/99 3:53:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Vidya123

> writes:

>

> << COMPLETE PURITY of thought deed and word. >>

> Is sex IMPURE; is NO sex PURE? I quote from " Thoughts on the Gita " by Swami

> Vivekananda:

>

 

if sex generates some attachment or impure feelings than it is impure for

that person.

 

> " Attach yourselves to the Lord and to nothing else, because everything else

> is unreal. Attachment to the unreal will bring misery. There is only one

> Existence that is real, only one Life in which there is nother object nor

> [subject].

>

> But unattached love will not hurt you. Do anything ... marry, have children

> ... Do anything you like ... nothing wil hurt you... "

>

>

 

True!

[Guest guest]

The lives of THOUSANDS of saints and THOUSANDS of scriptures

> back these principles up and state that one cannot realize God without

> complete purity of THOUGHT WORD AND DEED.

>

> Hari Om!

>

> -Om Lala

>

 

So we have to see can there be purity of , thought word n deed in sex

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 6 May 1999 Sunil_Sudhakar wrote:

 

> <Sunil_Sudhakar

>

> On Thu, 6 May 1999, Thomas-Carlyle Ayres wrote:

> " Thomas-Carlyle Ayres " <arcanta> >

> ><< Aren't we ALL incarnations of God, striving for that realization? If not,

> >then what? >>> > No! , not necesarily. i was saying

> >the word " incarnation " reffering to the relative plain. >

> I guess it's just a matter of semantics, then...Yet I still hold to the

question: if we are not God incarnating for self-realization, then what are

we? Something else? What can exist outside of " God " ?> > Tat Tvam Asi,> Thomas>

R u saying that God is not self realised ?

>

>

> My dearest Anurag

>

> Not for a moment am I trying to contest what is said in the scriptures or

> what you say. I just wanted to say that all the " vices " need not be given

> too much importance.

 

True " vices " should not be given too much importance because one has to

become above " vices " . But when certain " vice " bothers one than it

needs to solved .

 

> I am a reluctant writer to this or any list because of

> the limitations of words which cannot fully express one's feelings. Anyway

> I shall set about the task as I am now involved.

>

 

Yes many times limitations of words or our limitation in it makes it

impossible to express one's feelings. Thinking that someone may not take

some wrong feeling from ur post i tried to clarify wat u wrote.

 

> As regards god realization, I am still in the process of finding out about

> what it really means. For the moment, I wish to enjoy whatever god has

> given me.

 

Everyone who hasn't seen him with nakd eyes or have talked to him just

like we talk to person also have him all the time in one's heart is in the

process of finding out wat it really means.

 

Be it a highest attained yogi or someone everyone tries to enjoy wat god

has given them.

 

I believe, renunciation should not be forced upon me. It should

> happen naturally, just as a ripe fruit drops of by itself, so must our

> desires. This is my feeling.

>

 

Nothin should be forced upon. True that it should happen naturally but

one shouldn't keep it aside thikning that it will happen naturally.

If one doesn't know who is God won't one like to look for methods which

will help him understand God rather than just thining that some day t will

hapen naturally.

 

Put ones sincere efforts towards something n than it will happen naturally

someday.

 

> I have an open mind and do not wish to influence what you feel intensely

> about, because you know yourself best. And you also understand that

> argumenting does not lead us anywhere. It is enough if our message strikes

> harmony with a few hearts around the world. That is the very purpose of

> such mail lists. If there are genuine doubts, we shall help one another(

> hopefully). There is no doubt that Sankara's and Vivekananda's lived a life

> of celebacy and were successful. They were great persons and were born

> celebates.

 

I too try to have an open mind. I don't know the best. If one finds

something good in something take it. That is the way one learns.

It's not enough if there is harmony rather one should look for is

the harmony ok which exists in few hearts around the world.

 

>

> For the rest of the people, as Jody says, " We must evolve or devolve

> (whatever the case may be) into celibacy as a natural part of our spiritual

> process. "

>

 

I think in spiritual process there is evolution towards knowing self

rather than devolving coming in. Even if it is the conext of celibacy than

it should be evolution rather than devolution.

 

> Anurag, there is a very interesting story which you can read at your

> leasure. It is a bit long but attempts to say what I want to and there is a

> lot of harmony with life in it. It is from the philist.

 

That is a nice story. Many Thanks!

 

 

>

> love and prayers

>

 

>

> Sunil

>