Guest guest Posted May 20, 1999 Report Share Posted May 20, 1999 At 02:30 AM 5/20/99 +0530, you wrote: >Anurag Goel <anurag >> I'm not a follower of Kashmir Shaivism, in fact I find the teachings to be >> among the most foolish of Hindu belief systems. Just to let you know, and >> that it is only a personally-held opinion. > >I don't know abt Kashmir Shaivism. But as far as i have seen on lists the >kundalini refrences n tantra in it has attracted much of the people. Of course... they offers " Excitement, " " Changes in consciousness, " " Transcendence... " " Bliss " " Rushes " " Spiritual Experiences " - In other words, kundalini and tantra are popular for the same reason cocaine and heroin and marijuana and LSD are popular. They generate pleasurable physical experiences. They are focused on the physical body, which most people identify themselves with and cannot see past. Discrimination and dispassion and lack of attachment and simple living are unpopular. Few really want Realization... they want a psychedelic experience. They want thrills and chills without having to break the law, and the tantric/kundalini traditions deliver far more powerful ones than seeing the latest Arnold Schwartzenegger movie. Also, people can then call themselves " spiritual " with pride. Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html ______ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 Dear everybody, A NOTE ON TANTRA, ETC... Some sects believe that Tantras is a complete, elaborate, and well worked out system in which a perfect correlation has been achieved between anatomical (physical), physiological, psychological, and spiritual levels of the human beings as well as various grades of sadhana. Tantras accepted the fact that consciousness and Shakti are related and present at every level of consciousness. The anatomical correlation is not obtained by dissection of the human body, but by meditation on various symbolic " centres " in the spinal cord and the brain. From below upwards they are at the base of the spinal cord through to the vertex of the cranium, seven in all, and representing increasingly higher level of consciousness. The energy is dormant in all the human beings, at the base of the spine, in the form of a coiled snake, hence the name: Kundalini Shakti. The description of lotuses, colours, and like assigned to each centre is symbolic, white probably meaning purity and peace, etc. Rising " Kundalini " can be interpreted as the development of voluntary control over the autonomic functions of the body. If, for example, the Kundalini rises to " Anahat Chakra " or cardiac centre, it would mean that the person has gained control of the autonomic functions of the centres below it, namely, heart, abdominal viscera, and the genital organs. This is possible only through the intense practice of sense control, control of outgoing mind, renunciation, discrimination, and austerities. Many a time the need of a wise teacher is emphasized. In the life of Sri Ramakrishna, we see all the qualities of a true spiritual aspirant, and hence it was so easy for him to master all the sixty four types of Tantric disciplines in his life in a short period of time. Sri Ramakrishna once described these intricacies in his Tantric experience: " There is much similarity between the seven 'planes' described in the Vedanta and the six 'centres' of Yoga. The first three planes of the Vedas may be compared to the first three Yogic centres, namely, Muldhara, Svadhisthana, and Manipura. With ordinary people the mind dwells in these three planes, at the organ of evacuation and generation and at the navel. When the mind ascends to the fourth plane, the centre designated in Yoga as Anahata, it sees the individual soul is a flame. Besides, it sees light. At this the aspirant cries: 'Ha! What is this?' 'When the mind rises to the fifth plane, the aspirant wants to hear only about God. This is the Vishuddha centre of Yoga. The sixth plane and centre is known as by the yogis as Ajna are one and the same. When the mind rises there, the aspirant sees God. But still there is a barrier between God and the devotee. It is like the barrier of glass in a lantern, which keeps one touching the light. …After passing the six centres the aspirant arrives at the seventh plane (Sahasrara). Reaching it the mind merges in Brahman. The individual soul and the Supreme Soul become one. The aspirant goes into samadhi. His consciousness of the body disappears. He loses the knowledge of the outer world. He does not see the manifold any more. His reasoning comes a stop. Spiritual consciousness is not possible without the awakening of Kundalini. " VISIT < http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/asc.html > for more details. Thanks, DR C S SHAH Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > At 02:30 AM 5/20/99 +0530, you wrote: > >Anurag Goel <anurag > > >> I'm not a follower of Kashmir Shaivism, in fact I find the teachings to be > >> among the most foolish of Hindu belief systems. Just to let you know, and > >> that it is only a personally-held opinion. > > > >I don't know abt Kashmir Shaivism. But as far as i have seen on lists the > >kundalini refrences n tantra in it has attracted much of the people. > > Of course... they offers " Excitement, " " Changes in consciousness, " > " Transcendence... " " Bliss " " Rushes " " Spiritual Experiences " - > > In other words, kundalini and tantra are popular for the same reason > cocaine and heroin and marijuana and LSD are popular. They generate > pleasurable physical experiences. They are focused on the physical body, > which most people identify themselves with and cannot see past. > > Discrimination and dispassion and lack of attachment and simple living are > unpopular. Few really want Realization... they want a psychedelic > experience. They want thrills and chills without having to break the law, > and the tantric/kundalini traditions deliver far more powerful ones than > seeing the latest Arnold Schwartzenegger movie. Also, people can then call > themselves " spiritual " with pride. > > Tim > > ----- > Visit The Core of the WWW at: > http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html > Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. > > Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: > http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html > ______ > NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? > Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at > http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html > > ------ > ONElist members are using Shared Files in great ways! > > Are you? If not, see our homepage for details. > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 Dear Dr. Shah, Your explanation of kundalini awakening is very beautiful. Thank you for this exquisite contribution. Om Shanti! Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 Dear Jody, Why not respect Tim's point of view as you would want him to respect yours. Truth is truth and wisdom is wisdom, and this has nothing to do with being a Vedantist or not one. Please watch out for hypocracy and arogance! This is the great failing, without exception, of every metaphysical and philosophical group. Narrowness is the great curse of mankind. Dr. Bruce S. Fisher P.S. And please do not sluff my comments off as anger--your previous comment to Tim was quite ill advised. ************************ JodyHolly1 wrote: > > JodyHolly1 > > In a message dated 5/21/99 3:50:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > fewtch writes: > > << All insight is > arrived at through the mind, and although I don't doubt Ramakrishna's > Realized/Enlightened status, his mind was just as imperfect as any other > mind. >> > > Tim, > > Why do you participate in this list since you are obviously not a Vedantist. > > Jody > > ------ > ONElist: bringing the world together. > > Join a new list today! > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 In a message dated 5/21/99 3:50:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, fewtch writes: << All insight is arrived at through the mind, and although I don't doubt Ramakrishna's Realized/Enlightened status, his mind was just as imperfect as any other mind. >> Tim, Why do you participate in this list since you are obviously not a Vedantist. Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 1999 Report Share Posted May 21, 1999 At 04:55 PM 5/21/99 +0530, you wrote: >Dear everybody, >A NOTE ON TANTRA, ETC... > " Spiritual >consciousness is not possible without the awakening of Kundalini. " - Ramakrishna I don't know if this was a true insight by Sri Ramakrishna. All insight is arrived at through the mind, and although I don't doubt Ramakrishna's Realized/Enlightened status, his mind was just as imperfect as any other mind. To every statement there is doubt, whether it is uttered by Ramakrishna or by some guy on the street. To blindly believe something because it is uttered by a great sage or saint is foolish. All blind faith is foolish. Faith, if present, must be awake to the moment and to " personal " experience. Hari OM, Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 1999 Report Share Posted May 22, 1999 Dear Everybody, Tim Gerchmez wrote: < To blindly believe something because it is uttered by a great sage or saint is foolish. > One point of interest to note is that FAITH IS ALWAYS BLIND. Can anyone ever define faith otherwise! Swami Vivekananda defines faith as 'a sincere belief in a concept and the consequent eagerness to reach it.' Faith evolves just as the matter. With this evolution of faith the knowledge of relative world also changes. As we grow spiritually; and we are discussing the spirituality of Advaita Vedanta, our faith in separateness also is destroyed only to be replaced with a newer and higher faith in universal brotherhood. We grow from selfishness to selflessness. Our love grows from being limited to ourselves and the family for the love towards neighbor, and people of the society. The restrictive egoism loosens its grip on our mind and we start feeling more free. We start breathing in vaster area of world with peace and bliss. Firm faith in something gradually brings knowledge about that thing. Our only hope lies in our faith in the correctness of Vedanta philosophy: That the knowledge and the spirituality do not come from outside, but are the inherent property of each and every individual irrespective of nationality, caste, or sex. Fortunately, in India many scientists are born in the field of spirituality from time immemorial. They have given us Upanishads to strengthen and stabilize our shaking faith. We are fortunate to be living in the period of history when we know the persons living today who have seen these principles of Advaita Vedanta personified in the lives of Sri Ramakrishna, Holy Mother, and Swami Vivekananda and their disciples. These facts should give us courage and boldness to drive away all lingering doubts from our mind and allow shraddha--faith-- to enter our heart. dr c s shah Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > At 04:55 PM 5/21/99 +0530, you wrote: > >Dear everybody, > >A NOTE ON TANTRA, ETC... > > > " Spiritual > >consciousness is not possible without the awakening of Kundalini. " - > Ramakrishna > > I don't know if this was a true insight by Sri Ramakrishna. All insight is > arrived at through the mind, and although I don't doubt Ramakrishna's > Realized/Enlightened status, his mind was just as imperfect as any other > mind. To every statement there is doubt, whether it is uttered by > Ramakrishna or by some guy on the street. To blindly believe something > because it is uttered by a great sage or saint is foolish. All blind faith > is foolish. Faith, if present, must be awake to the moment and to > " personal " experience. > > Hari OM, > > Tim > > ----- > Visit The Core of the WWW at: > http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html > Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. > > Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: > http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html > > ------ > ONElist: bringing the world together. > > Join a new list today! > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 1999 Report Share Posted May 22, 1999 On Fri, 21 May 1999, Dr C S Shah wrote: > Dear everybody, > A NOTE ON TANTRA, ETC... > > Some sects believe that Tantras is a complete, elaborate, and well > worked out system in which a perfect correlation has been achieved > between anatomical (physical), physiological, psychological, and > spiritual levels of the human beings as well as various grades of > sadhana. Tantras accepted the fact that consciousness and Shakti are > related and present at every level of consciousness. The anatomical > correlation is not obtained by dissection of the human body, but by > meditation on various symbolic " centres " in the spinal cord and the > brain. > From below upwards they are at the base of the spinal cord > through to the vertex of the cranium, seven in all, Body as such contain many chakraas but main chakraas can be classified in to seven. and representing > increasingly higher level of consciousness. The energy is dormant in all > the human beings, at the base of the spine, in the form of a coiled > snake, hence the name: Kundalini Shakti. The description of lotuses, > colours, and like assigned to each centre is symbolic, white probably > meaning purity and peace, etc. > Different colours , smells n psysic powers r linked with different chakraas. Lotuses linked with chakraas as such may or may not be visualized for it totally depends on the mental frame of the practioner. Experiences with kundalini as such depend much on the mental frame of the individual which may vary from one individual to another. > Rising " Kundalini " can be interpreted as the development of voluntary > control over the autonomic functions of the body. If, for example, the > Kundalini rises to " Anahat Chakra " or cardiac centre, it would mean that > the person has gained control of the autonomic functions of the centres > below it, namely, heart, abdominal viscera, and the genital organs. This > is possible only through the intense practice of sense control, control > of outgoing mind, renunciation, discrimination, and austerities. Many a > time the need of a wise teacher is emphasized. It is said that in rising Kundalini the presence of teacher is of utmost importance. I think irrespective of wat path one follows the kundalini is to rise for it seems to be the most basic thing. > In the life of Sri Ramakrishna, we see all the qualities of a true > spiritual aspirant, and hence it was so easy for him to master all the > sixty four types of Tantric disciplines in his life in a short period of > time. > Sri Ramakrishna once described these intricacies in his Tantric > experience: > " There is much similarity between the seven 'planes' described in the > Vedanta and the six 'centres' of Yoga. The first three planes of the > Vedas may be compared to the first three Yogic centres, namely, > Muldhara, Svadhisthana, and Manipura. With ordinary people the mind > dwells in these three planes, at the organ of evacuation and generation > and at the navel. When the mind ascends to the fourth plane, the centre > designated in Yoga as Anahata, it sees the individual soul is a flame. > Besides, it sees light. At this the aspirant cries: 'Ha! What is this?' > 'When the mind rises to the fifth plane, the aspirant wants to hear only > about God. This is the Vishuddha centre of Yoga. The sixth plane and > centre is known as by the yogis as Ajna are one and the same. When the > mind rises there, the aspirant sees God. But still there is a barrier > between God and the devotee. It is like the barrier of glass in a > lantern, which keeps one touching the light. …After passing the six > centres the aspirant arrives at the seventh plane (Sahasrara). Reaching > it the mind merges in Brahman. The individual soul and the Supreme Soul > become one. The aspirant goes into samadhi. His consciousness of the > body disappears. He loses the knowledge of the outer world. He does not > see the manifold any more. His reasoning comes a stop. Spiritual > consciousness is not possible without the awakening of Kundalini. " > I too feel that watever path one may follow kundalini has to rise one day as kundalini appears to be the most basic thing. Body , Mind , Prana , Soul. It's hard to visualize where kundalini lies in above order but it can be seen to have much link with mind n prana. It's affects Body n mind n than raises the conciousness to reveal truth. I think depending on the context of discussion kundalini chakraas can be classified in to 6,7 or 10. Usually kundalini chakraas are referred by either of these numbers. > VISIT < http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/asc.html > for more > details. > > Thanks, > DR C S SHAH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 1999 Report Share Posted May 23, 1999 Dear Dr. Shah, Maharaj, Swami Brahmananda, Swamiji's revered brother disciple, said: " Real faith cannot be had at the beginning. First realization, then faith... " (Eternal Companion p. 198 3rd edition 1970) The working faith we have in the beginning, though necessary to take even one step, can be blown away by the winds of misfortune, but even the smallest realization can bind it to the bedrock of our being. Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 1999 Report Share Posted May 23, 1999 Edith very true as My Pujya Gurudev said one becomes truly n all devoted to Lord after one sees him n installs that image of his in one's heart. but even if misfortunes come one should hold on to faith towards Lord. For everything that occurs is for the Good. On Sat, 22 May 1999, EDTipple wrote: > EDTipple <edtipple > > Dear Dr. Shah, > > Maharaj, Swami Brahmananda, Swamiji's revered brother disciple, said: > " Real faith cannot be had at the beginning. First realization, then > faith... " (Eternal Companion p. 198 3rd edition 1970) The working > faith we have in the beginning, though necessary to take even one > step, can be blown away by the winds of misfortune, but even the > smallest realization can bind it to the bedrock of our being. Edith > > ------ > What do lizards and rock music have in common? > > They both have communities at ONElist. Find yours today! > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 1999 Report Share Posted May 23, 1999 >From Dr. Shah < drcsshah > Dear Edith, I agree what you say. Probably I was not able to put my viewpoint clearly enough, otherwise no such misunderstanding would have occurred. Why and how should one turn to spirituality and proceed to undertake arduous spiritual practices -- sadhana? Besides God's Grace and the person's karma, the person must have initial faith in the sayings, or teachings, or life of someone who has had actual realization of the Truths of Vedanta. Therefore, this sentence was put: Swami Vivekananda defines faith as 'a sincere belief in a concept and the consequent eagerness to reach it.' I have 'a sincere belief in the concept of Vedanta [as lived and taught by the Holy Trio and their disciples,] and the consequent eagerness to reach it.' This is that initial faith I am talking about. I have not realized even a bit of the Truth, but this firm faith in those truths may lead me to engage in the necessary spiritual practices required to realize or experience a bit of them. Again I totally agree with you and I cannot even doubt a single word uttered by any direct disciple of Sri Thakur. dr c s shah EDTipple wrote: > > EDTipple <edtipple > > Dear Dr. Shah, > > Maharaj, Swami Brahmananda, Swamiji's revered brother disciple, said: > " Real faith cannot be had at the beginning. First realization, then > faith... " (Eternal Companion p. 198 3rd edition 1970) The working > faith we have in the beginning, though necessary to take even one > step, can be blown away by the winds of misfortune, but even the > smallest realization can bind it to the bedrock of our being. Edith > > ------ > What do lizards and rock music have in common? > > They both have communities at ONElist. Find yours today! > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 1999 Report Share Posted May 24, 1999 Dear Dr. Shah, Of course I agree with you. I just thought it interesting that a realized soul would say that realization was necessary for (real) faith. Just to imagine what a wonderful experience that must be! Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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