Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 _____________________________ > _____________________________ > > Message: 3 > Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:25:22 +0300 > " Madhava K. Turumella " <madhava > Re: Digest Number 98 > > > > > omtatsat [sMTP:omtatsat] > > Friday, June 11, 1999 1:59 PM > > Ramakrishna > > Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 98 > > > > <omtatsat > > > > On Fri, 11 June 1999, Ramakrishna wrote: > > > > According to the Hindu Code of Manu:........ > [Madhava Replies:] > Om Santi! > > My dear friend, no offence, but I have three words to say about > this: It is wrong. > > It is tantamount to mis-understanding and mis-representation of our > sacred texts. I would advise, better leave them there, that doesn't harm > much. Other wise, I would advise - read the books written/interpreted by > any " adhikAri " . > > Also, when you want to quote from " Manu " please quote the book in > its entirety. [iS THERE ROOM ON THE PAGE?] It is a chain of inter linked verses. *Personally*, with > what ever little knowledge I have got in understanding english, I don't even > accept the MaxMuller's translation of vedic texts > > Vedas demand that one should be an " adhikari " (Master/he who > deserves) to interpret them. That condition does apply for understanding > our Manu as well ! > > A true adhikari is he who got the following qualities: > > (1) who has mastered all six aspects of Veda (trayee) > > sikshavyAkaraNaM chandO niruktaM jyOtishaM tathA | > kalpa ScEti shaDaMgAni vEda syAhu rmaneeshiNaH || > > sikaha = Pronounciation > vyAkaraNaM = Grammer > chandaH = Prosody > niruktaM = Explanation of obscure terms (NOTE: My point is based on > this) > jyOtishaM = Astronomy > kalpah = Religious rites > > (2) He who understood the right usage of Svara (sound) - > " udAttAdyAstrayaH svarAH " - Accute, grave or circumflex accents. > > (3) He should have knowledge on the " anveekshaki " - anveekshakee > danDaneeti starka vidyArtha SastrayOH - Logic as stated by Gautama and > Politics as taught by cANakya and ancient sages. > > (4) He should have the knowledge of the " akhyAyika " - That which is > told once upon a time - a true or parable related to that time. > > Before reading any interpretation of vedas or sacred books, we need > to understand whether the author is an adhikari, or just another mere > translator. I leave this judgement to your discreetion. > > Conclusively, one has to have full knowledge of " nirukta " in order > to understand the vedic language. > Contrary to the popular belief vedas are written in a language > called " Chanda " . Nirukta is the dictionary which could reveal the hidden > meaning of veda by giving you the acces to the root of the word. > > Let me give you one small example of how nirukta could reveal the > meaning of the word " deva " . For us " deva " means " God " in english. > According to Nirukta: > > " dEva " means " dyOtanAt dEvaH, dAnAt dEvaH, damanAt devaH.... " > > He who reveals (dyOtanAt) > He who donates (dAnAt) > He who controls (damanAt) > > Our tittiriya upanishad says: " mAtR dEvObhava, pitRdEvObhava, AcArya > dEvObhava " -- according to mullar's translation it is " Mother is God, Father > is God, Teacher is God " ! Would this suffice???? Don't we need to know why > a father has become a God for Hindus? The answer is that the father reveals > (dyOtanAt) to his children what is life. He donates his money (dAnAt) to > the children, thinking that is his sacred duty. He controls (damanAt) his > children, fearing that they might tread the unwanted ways of life.... > > Please refer what nirukta says about Manudharma Sastra. " The role > of Women and Sudras in Manudharma Sastra " - written by Swamini > Saradapriyanda, Chinmaya Mission, would be or great help in order to > understand manu. This is a commentary on manudharma based on nirukta. She > has written this in telugu language. I don't know whether Swamini Amma > translated it into English or not. > > Hari Om! tat sat! > > prANaMs, > -mAdhava ********************************************************************** comment from Tom: You are totally amazing! Of course, you are absolutely right,Madhava. However, since Swami Nikhilananda took the trouble, to translate the Bengali version of The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna into the English language; and also taking into consideration the efforts made by Sri Swami Vivekananda to spread the WORD in the west, I would assume that the intention of the hierarchy of the Ramakrishna Mission is to share this Uncomplicated Message worldwide . In order for one to understand the circumstances surrounding Sri Ramakrishna's life at Dakshineswar; his attitudes, customs and habits; it is necessary to do a certain amount of reading about Hindu practices and beliefs. The readings that you suggested in your kind and erudite message, would be most efficacious, for one who wishes to excel in scholarly pursuits. " What do I need to know of books, astrological charts or mystic chants, when every night, I sleep in the arms of the Divine Mother " omtatsat ********************************************************************** > > > > > _____________________________ > _____________________________ ____ 123India - India's Premier Search Engine Get your Free Email Account at http://www.123india.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 In a message dated 6/13/99 4:25:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, omtatsat writes: << " What do I need to know of books, astrological charts or mystic chants, when every night, I sleep in the arms of the Divine Mother " omtatsat >> Om, Since you are the one quoting so-called scripture, what in heaven's name is your point? Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 > ********************************************************************** > comment from Tom: > > You are totally amazing! Of course, you are absolutely right,Madhava. > > However, since Swami Nikhilananda took the trouble, to translate the > Bengali version of The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna into the English > language; and also taking into consideration the efforts made by Sri Swami > Vivekananda to spread the WORD in the west, I would assume that > the intention of the hierarchy of the Ramakrishna Mission is to share this > Uncomplicated Message worldwide . > > In order for one to understand the circumstances surrounding > Sri Ramakrishna's life at Dakshineswar; his attitudes, customs and habits; > it is necessary to do a certain amount of reading about Hindu practices > and beliefs. > > The readings that you suggested in your kind and erudite message, would be > most efficacious, for one who wishes to excel in scholarly pursuits. > > " What do I need to know of books, astrological charts or mystic chants, > when every night, I sleep in the arms of the Divine Mother " > > omtatsat [Madhava Replies:] Hari Om! My dear friend, remember, paramahaMsa never felt he is separated from mother Kali's vision. He was able to see mother kali even in a prostitute. That is the divine sight one should aspire. Mother is every where --- caring, protecting, guiding --- only we need to have the right ears to listen to her, we need to have right eyes see her - like paramahaMsa did, we need to have the right legs to walk along with her, we need to have right arms to take her helping hand and walk in the way she is showing. Related to the topic that caused me writing that mail: there is a lot of misunderstanding about manu. We *hindus* never mis-treated our women. Neither our Manu said that nor we are supposed to treat women as if they were inferior. Some where in the recent past, (I suspect 7 centuries back) male chauvinistic scholars started misquoting manu. We should change this. If our ideas towards woman's role in the society is different, then we would not have had significant part of our veda contributed by a woman seer like Gargi. You have quoted some excerpts from our manudharma, which is suggesting that women or some how inferior. I wanted to convey that it is wrong. I was suggesting that if one wants to know, then one should study books in its entirety. Misunderstanding and misquoting our hindu scriptures has landed many seekers in utter confusion. We should put an end to this before any further damage is done. Best Regards, Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 In a message dated 6/14/99 5:45:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, madhava writes: << Misunderstanding and misquoting our hindu scriptures has landed many seekers in utter confusion. We should put an end to this before any further damage is done. >> AMEN! Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Dear Everybody, A Smriti is a changing code of conduct, while Shruti is Basic unchangeable Principle. " Veda and Upanishad " is Shruti, the Truth of them and in them cannot be challenged; while Manusmriti is Yuga-Dharama that may change according to the changes in human intellect leading to changes in social, cultural and ritual life style, attitudes and perceptions. As mentioned by swami Ranganathananda, therefore, the present day Constitution of India should be accepted as our recent " SMRITI " , and followed accordingly. Here in this constitution, there is equality of all, there is no Shudra or lower caste, women have equal rights; hence instead of Manusmriti present day Indian constitution should be studied and acted upon. Thanks, dr c s shah JodyHolly1 wrote: > > JodyHolly1 > > In a message dated 6/14/99 5:45:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > madhava writes: > > << Misunderstanding and misquoting our hindu scriptures > has landed many seekers in utter confusion. We should put an end to this > before any further damage is done. >> > > AMEN! > > Jody > > ------ > ONElist: the best source for group communications. > > Join a new list today! > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ -- ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://come.to/neovedanta http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html ==================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 1999 Report Share Posted June 16, 1999 Sri Madhava: " Please refer what nirukta says about Manudharma Sastra. " The role of Women and Sudras in Manudharma Sastra " - written by Swamini Saradapriyanda, Chinmaya Mission, would be or great help in order to understand manu. This is a commentary on manudharma based on nirukta. She has written this in telugu language. I don't know whether Swamini Amma translated it into English or not. " I am just curious to know: it was my (not so authoritative) understanding that the _niruktam_ is a subdiscipline of the the Veda, chiefly to aid the interpretation of the Vedas. I havent known that _niruktam_ is useful in the interpretation of other classical texts including the _smritis_. Correct me, if I am wrong. Also, are there other classical scriptures besides the Vedas that require the _niruktam_ for their interpretation ? Has anyone taken up the exercises of applying _niruktam_ to interpreting other classics both in the ancient & modern times ? Do we have an interpretation of the Gita based on the _niruktam_, for example ? Also would kindly cite the publication details of the book by Swamini Saradapriyananda ? I fully understand that my curiosity has little to do with the teachings of Bhagawan Sri Ramakrishna & hope to be excused if this sounds a bit pedantic to others in the list. Thanks & Regards, Hari Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 > > Tadepalli, Hari K [sMTP:hari.k.tadepalli] > Thursday, June 17, 1999 12:25 AM > 'Ramakrishna ' > Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 100 > > " Tadepalli, Hari K " <hari.k.tadepalli > > > Sri Madhava: > > " Please refer what nirukta says about Manudharma Sastra. " The role > of Women and Sudras in Manudharma Sastra " - written by Swamini > Saradapriyanda, Chinmaya Mission, would be or great help in order to > understand manu. This is a commentary on manudharma based on > nirukta. She has written this in telugu language. I don't know whether > Swamini Amma translated it into English or not. " > > I am just curious to know: it was my (not so authoritative) > understanding that the _niruktam_ is a subdiscipline of the the Veda, > chiefly to aid the interpretation of the Vedas. I havent known that > _niruktam_ is useful in the interpretation of other classical texts > including the _smritis_. [Madhava Replies:] Dear Sri HariKrishna, Hari Om! It is a known fact that vEda is compiled before our smiritis. smiritis are referring the " words " from our vEda. Language consists of words and words are derived from the root. The meaning for the word may change during the course of the time, but the root never changes. That is why linguists, in any language, depend heavily on the roots of the word in order to find the right meaning of the word. That is why we should use niruktam to understand the upanishadic words. I am told that English language has got its roots in Latin and some other ancient languages, including Sanskrit. We can find astonishing similarities between some of the English words and Sanskrit words: Father = pita Mother = maata Brother = bhratha Dental = danta We have the word " jagat " in Sanskrit. The root for this is " jug " - that which is continuously changing. From the same root there are nearly another 20 words derived. They all convey the same meaning but in different ways. Like wise there are many words in sanskrit. > Correct me, if I am wrong. Also, are there other > classical scriptures besides the Vedas that require the _niruktam_ for > their > interpretation ? [Madhava Replies:] Though the nearest meanings for the words are available, niruktaM is used to understand the precise meaning of the word. When in doubt about the right meaning, one can always find the root and start from there. For example: We have the word " annaM " . taittiriyopanishad says " annaM na niMdyAt tad vrataM, annaM bahu kurveeta " . The usual meaning is " One should not scold food, that is obligation. Food can do many things " .. In niruktam " annaM " means " aanataM bhavati bhootEbhyaH " (niruktaM 3.9) it also means " The right path chosen by the beings - freewill " (purushArtha). So we can also interpret taittiriya as " one should not ignore the freewill, it is obligation. Freewill can achieve many things. " same way: " caMdra " -> ciraMdramasi iti caMdraH " aaditya " -> aadattE rasAn iti aadityaH " mEru " -> " ma iru " iti mEru > Has anyone taken up the exercises of applying _niruktam_ to > interpreting other classics both in the ancient & modern times ? Do we > have > an interpretation of the Gita based on the _niruktam_, for example ? [Madhava Replies:] Swamini Saradapriyananda's Bhagawad Gita commentary is entirely based on niruktam. You can find many interesting meanings for the words. Also we can find how close those words to the advaitic teaching. > Also > would kindly cite the publication details of the book by Swamini > Saradapriyananda ? [Madhava Replies:] Swamini Amma's books are all published by " chinmayaranyam publications trust " . I heard that the address is changed recently. Any way, these books should be available with local chinmaya mission centres. Chinmayaranyam is a social service project started by Swamini Amma, where hundreds of destitute are looked after. And I feel really proud that she is my teacher, here is a link to find more about her. http://WWW.tezcat.com/~bnaik/shardapriyananda.html She is the one who insisted and initiated me in studying the life and teachings of Sri Ramakrisha ParamahaMsa and swamy Vivekananda. She is the one who has shown me the right approach towards life. mAdhava gurO dayAbaMdhO mAdhava ~jnAnadAyini madhuvAngmayatAptyarthaM SAradAM praNamAmyahaM || > My humble apologies, if I got a bit carried away with all this. But the word " guru " itself takes me in to a different world, I can't help it. Sorry once again. Regards, Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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