Digest Number 102

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In a message dated 6/15/99 6:35:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

omtatsat writes:

 

<< St. Paul said on many occasions: " Woman, be subject to your husband " . >>

Tom,

 

Who cares what St. Paul said? St. Paul was the creator of the Madonna/Whore

concept. Besides, to quote the New Testament in the Bible is a mistake since

it was changed many times during the first 300 years after it was originally

written. The human mind is the source for a lot of what we find in the

Bible. Did you know that Mary Magdalene was the chief disciple of Jesus

Christ and that there was actually a Gospel according to Mary Magadelene?

This information has been withheld by certain Popes in the early years of the

church.

 

St. Paul was a man troubled by his own sexuality. The Truth elevates our

consciousness; it does not degrade or demean. The Truth enlightens. I do

not feel that all you have written Tom about women's place in life elevates

or enlightens.

 

You know we can quote from many sources to support the position we take in

life, but that does not mean that we have touched on Truth. The mind

survives by being right and so it looks for agreement in whatever way it can

towards this end.

 

All cultures are undergoing a transition when it comes to traditional

male/female roles and though it looks " evil " to you, Tom, it is ultimately

for a greater good that these changes are taking place. Women were never

meant to be subservient to men. This is not God's way. God's way is that

all of his creation should be total in its expression of the divine within

and that was Swamiji's message to the West.

 

Om Shanti!

<A HREF= " http://members.aol.com/JodyHolly1/index.html " >Be Still and Know -

Jody Holly

</A>

http://members.aol.com/JodyHolly1/index.html

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 15 June 1999, Ramakrishna wrote:

 

>

>

> Having difficulty getting " in synch " with list members?

>

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> ------

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

>

> There are 5 messages in this issue.

>

> Topics in today's digest:

>

> 1. Re: Digest Number 100

> " Madhava K. Turumella " <madhava

> 2. Re: Digest Number 98

> Anurag Goel <anurag

> 3. Re: Digest Number 98

> Swami Yogeshananda <yogeshananda

> 4. Re: Digest Number 100

> JodyHolly1

> 5. Astavakra

> " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda

>

>

>

_____________________________

>

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>

> Message: 1

> Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:53:21 +0300

> " Madhava K. Turumella " <madhava

> Re: Digest Number 100

>

> > **********************************************************************

> > comment from Tom:

> >

> > You are totally amazing! Of course, you are absolutely right,Madhava.

> >

> > However, since Swami Nikhilananda took the trouble, to translate the

> > Bengali version of The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna into the English

> > language; and also taking into consideration the efforts made by Sri Swami

> > Vivekananda to spread the WORD in the west, I would assume that

> > the intention of the hierarchy of the Ramakrishna Mission is to share this

> > Uncomplicated Message worldwide .

> >

> > In order for one to understand the circumstances surrounding

> > Sri Ramakrishna's life at Dakshineswar; his attitudes, customs and habits;

> > it is necessary to do a certain amount of reading about Hindu practices

> > and beliefs.

> >

> > The readings that you suggested in your kind and erudite message, would be

> > most efficacious, for one who wishes to excel in scholarly pursuits.

> >

> > " What do I need to know of books, astrological charts or mystic chants,

> > when every night, I sleep in the arms of the Divine Mother "

> >

> > omtatsat

> [Madhava Replies:]

> Hari Om!

>

> My dear friend, remember, paramahaMsa never felt he is separated

> from mother Kali's vision. He was able to see mother kali even in a

> prostitute.

*********************************************************************

Comment from Tom: Here we see a similarity to Jesus of Nazareth

*********************************************************************

That is the divine sight one should aspire. Mother is every

> where --- caring, protecting, guiding --- only we need to have the right

> ears to listen to her, we need to have right eyes see her - like paramahaMsa

> did, we need to have the right legs to walk along with her, we need to have

> right arms to take her helping hand and walk in the way she is showing.

*********************************************************************

Comment from Tom: Yes, Yes, Yes! So beautifully expressed, Madhava!

*********************************************************************

>

> Related to the topic that caused me writing that mail: there is a

> lot of misunderstanding about manu. We *hindus* never mis-treated our women.

> Neither our Manu said that nor we are supposed to treat women as if they

> were inferior. Some where in the recent past, (I suspect 7 centuries back)

> male chauvinistic scholars started misquoting manu. We should change this.

> If our ideas towards woman's role in the society is different,

**********************************************************************

Comment from Tom: re: Woman's role in society

 

In my humble opinion, Madhava, woman is equal to man in every respect. Being the

father of two daughters myself [one of them a medical doctor], I would be a fool

to believe otherwise. However, if and when, a woman decides to marry, she must

accept submission to her husband. This is not only true in Hinduism, but also in

Islam and Christianity. St. Paul said on many occasions: " Woman, be subject to

your husband " . So, Tom is not inventing anything new.

 

My attitude concerning the 'code of manu',

is positive, rather than negative. The pendulum of civilization has swung almost

to the limit of it's natural 'arc'. Relations have never been worse between the

sexes. The 'mantra' of the average modern married man is: " Yes, Dear, whatever

you say, dear " . And the average

modern married woman takes an evil delight in dancing on the grave of

her husband, whom she has 'stressed' into the ground!

 

And our medical community blames these diseases on smoking, cholesterol and

other factors....ignoring the obvious

ramifications of " LOSS OF MANLY PRIDE AND SELF ESTEEM "

 

So, Madhava, my dear partner in Tapsya [this is 'tapasya' we are preforming at

this very moment...you reading this text and me writing it - when both of us

could be doing something else], we must always remember that Sri Swami

Vivekananda spoke time and time again of

the importance of MANLINESS......!

*********************************************************************

 

then we would

> not have had significant part of our veda contributed by a woman seer like

> Gargi.

>

> You have quoted some excerpts from our manudharma, which is

> suggesting that women or some how inferior.

*********************************************************************

Comment from Tom: Madhava, these texts were composed centuries

ago and passed on from mouth to mouth, with great care taken to preserve the

original words and meaning. There is no suggestion, as far as I am concened,

that women are 'somehow inferior'.

 

Woman's place as HELPMATE to her husband, has been an established

position since time immemorial. Would anyone attempt to drive an automobile,

which had two drivers in the front seat...two steering wheels, gas pedals and

two sets of brakes? The vehicle would surely

end up in the ditch. And that is the reason, in my humble opinion,

why so many marriages end up 'in the ditch'....Both husband and wife

are trying to run the marriage on a 'modern democratic basis'...is it working,

Madhava?

 

So, let the pendulum swing all the way...there is still a bit more to go. When

we see armed guards in our schools, rampant homelessness

among the young, huge trauma centres for knife and gunshot wounds, and the total

breakdown of the family...then we will be ready to listen to the Rishis of the

past....until then, let us carry on with our mantra: " yes dear, anything you say

dear "

 

Maybe, during this 'Kali Yuga', we have no choice...we have to move with the

trends...what do you say, brother?

**********************************************************************

 

 

I wanted to convey that it is

> wrong. I was suggesting that if one wants to know, then one should study

> books in its entirety. Misunderstanding and misquoting our hindu scriptures

> has landed many seekers in utter confusion. We should put an end to this

> before any further damage is done.

Best Regards,

> Madhava

**********************************************************************Comment

from Tom: Thank you very much, Madhava, for taking the trouble to respond to my

postings. I really appreciate your patience and understanding. Best Regards,

Tom

>

>

**********************************************************************

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________

>

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>

> Message: 2

> Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:32:23 +0530 (IST)

> Anurag Goel <anurag

> Re: Digest Number 98

>

>

> Kathi can u recall where did u read that may be it may be helpful in

> dealing with some people.

>

>

> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, K Kathirasan ADM NCS wrote:

>

> > K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan

> >

> > Namaste

> >

> > I remember reading that Swamiji considered certain laws laid down in the

> > Manusmrti to be outdated. He even wanted a new set of laws (smrti) to be

> > written for the present modern society. Regards.

> >

> > Om Shanti

> > Kathi

> >

> > >

> > > JodyHolly1 [sMTP:JodyHolly1]

> > > Saturday, June 12, 1999 1:09 AM

> > > Ramakrishna

> > > Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 98

> > >

> > > JodyHolly1

> > >

> > > In a message dated 6/11/99 8:13:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> > > anurag writes:

> > >

> > > << Hey Om don't start with manu i think it will lead us no where. l >>

> > > I agree! Cool it " Om " !

> > >

> > > Jody

> > >

> > > ------

> > > Looking to expand your world?

> > >

> > > ONElist has over 165,000 e-mail communities from which to choose!

> > > ------

> > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> > > Vivekananda Centre London

> > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

> >

> > ------

> > Looking for your kindred spirit?

> >

> > Go to ONElist: where kindred spirits connect and stay connected.

> > ------

> > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> > Vivekananda Centre London

> > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

> >

>

>

>

>

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>

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>

> Message: 3

> Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:08:11 -0500

> Swami Yogeshananda <yogeshananda

> Re: Digest Number 98

>

>

> >

> >Namaste

> >

> >I remember reading that Swamiji considered certain laws laid down in the

> >Manusmrti to be outdated. He even wanted a new set of laws (smrti) to be

> >written for the present modern society. Regards.

> >True. Moreover, Swamiji said he went by the scriptures when they agreed

> >with him. Swamiji has gone beyond the ancient scriptures and given us a

> >new dispensation for our day. He said this was the era of the common man,

> >and of women. Jai Swamiji!

> >Om Shanti

>

> >>

> >> JodyHolly1 [sMTP:JodyHolly1]

> >> Saturday, June 12, 1999 1:09 AM

> >> Ramakrishna

> >> Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 98

> >>

> >> JodyHolly1

> >>

> >> In a message dated 6/11/99 8:13:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> >> anurag writes:

> >>

> >> << Hey Om don't start with manu i think it will lead us no where. l >>

> >> I agree! Cool it " Om " !

> >>

> >> Jody

> >>

> >> ------

> >> Looking to expand your world?

> >>

> >> ONElist has over 165,000 e-mail communities from which to choose!

> >> ------

> >> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> >> Vivekananda Centre London

> >> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

> >

> >------

> >Looking for your kindred spirit?

> >

> >Go to ONElist: where kindred spirits connect and stay connected.

> >------

> >Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> >Vivekananda Centre London

> >http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

>

> ------

> Swami Yogeshananda

> The Eternal Quest

> 302 Sycamore Drive

> Decatur, GA 30030

> (404) 373-0107

> yogeshananda

> http://www.eternalquest.org/

> -----

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________

>

_____________________________

>

> Message: 4

> Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:55:11 EDT

> JodyHolly1

> Re: Digest Number 100

>

> In a message dated 6/14/99 5:45:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> madhava writes:

>

> << Misunderstanding and misquoting our hindu scriptures

> has landed many seekers in utter confusion. We should put an end to this

> before any further damage is done. >>

>

> AMEN!

>

> Jody

>

>

>

_____________________________

>

_____________________________

>

> Message: 5

> Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:39:58 +0100

> " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda

> Astavakra

>

> The verses themselves are so clear and bold that any commentary demeans

> them. Hence not offering any commentary on them from now on.

>

> Astavakra Samhita

> Chapter 2

>

> verse 3

>

> Having known yourself to be That in which the universe appears like waves on

> the sea, why do you run about like a miserable being?

>

> verse 4

>

> After hearing oneself to be Pure Consciousness and surpassingly beautiful,

> how can one yet be deeply attached to sensual objects and thus become

> impure?

>

>

>

> jay

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________

>

_____________________________

 

 

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>

> omtatsat [sMTP:omtatsat]

> Tuesday, June 15, 1999 1:01 PM

> Ramakrishna

> Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 102

>

> <omtatsat

>

> In my humble opinion, Madhava, woman is equal to man in every respect.

[Madhava Replies:]

Thank you veru much. I knew it but I continued the discussion so

that other seekers on this list will not misunderstand the excerpts.

 

> Comment from Tom: Thank you very much, Madhava, for taking the trouble to

> respond to my postings. I really appreciate your patience and

> understanding. Best Regards, Tom

[Madhava Replies:]

Actually, I should thank you. You gave me an opportunity to think

again about our manudharma, in that way your posting has accomplished it's

mission :-)

 

Sincere Regards,

Madhava