Guest guest Posted July 13, 1999 Report Share Posted July 13, 1999 [This message contained attachments] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 Hi, Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go together? Any comments! dr c s shah -- ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html ==================================== > samanvaya wrote: > > Hello everyone, > I hope there will be good participation for this new list > ISM dedicated to Indian System of Management. > Looking forward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 Dr C S Shah <drcssha Wednesday, July 14, 1999 9:46 PM Efficiency in work is what has achieved great industrial revolutions, modern management methods are nothing but ways and means of improving efficiency either it be man, machine, methods, whatever. Where are we? Multi-national seed companies which are EFFICIENTLY working producing EFFICIENT hybrid seeds, donot mind CORRUPTING 3rd world political leaders to sell them (the fact that the seeds cannot germinate a second generation and that they are not fully tested is no problem)!! Very EFFICIENTLY producing arms and armaments, we have huge Defense Companies which do not mind even helping terrorists in some countries, aided by willing law-makers in contempt and CORRUPT practices of international laws!! Very EFFICIENT drug manufacturers want growing markets and hence some CORRUPT tradesmen who can sell spurious food for which the drugs are good cure is only a EFFICIENT marketing strategy!! Lets get this clear, EFFICIENCY is RELATIVE, ETHICS are NOT. CORRUPTION is manifestation of lack of ETHICAL VALUES in industry, only A manifestation, there are others - Carelessness towards traditional methods (read: lack of understanding & impatience); Indifference towards nature; and many more. >Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry >hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient >officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! >Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go >together? >Any comments! >dr c s shah True, there is no need to cry hoarse about corruption, yet when the corruption of a system results in a million villagers being uprooted from 100s of villages or corruption of values results in a generation of educated people compromising the welfare of the society / country for the sake of personal prosperity, alone.Then there is a need to CRY AS HOARSE AS POSSIBLE!!! Yes, efficiency and corruption go together very well, they bring us to the current state of world affairs!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 1999 Report Share Posted July 14, 1999 Hi, I am new to the list and have been following the discussion thread for quite a while. Corruption and efficiency just can't be intermingled. I don't think the refrain to have a corrupt but efficient officer is acceptable. The rich may think so, but definitely not the poor. And the poor definitely constitutes the majority in this country. If we are aiming to build a society on the premise that corruption is acceptable if linked to being efficient, then the day is not far off when the deprived classes will resort to violent means. Because, in the ultimate analysis, it will be they who get affected. So it is dangerous to permit the rich to corrupt an officer in the mistaken belief that it may lead to better efficiency. I guess corruption and inefficieny should both be brought down with an iron hand. Only then will the edifice of society in India survive. May be we can learn a lot from Singapore which has neither much corruption nor inefficiency. Regards, Ajit http://www.neolite.com At 07:54 AM 7/14/99 +0530, you wrote: >Dr C S Shah <drcssha > >Hi, >Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry >hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient >officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! >Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go >together? >Any comments! >dr c s shah >-- >==================================== >E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: > http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html > http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html >==================================== >> samanvaya wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> I hope there will be good participation for this new list >> ISM dedicated to Indian System of Management. >> Looking forward > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. > >------ >Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah >Vivekananda Centre London >http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Dear Ajith and friends, The evolutionary progress in intellect makes it difficult to define who is Ravana and who is Rama! The faculty of reason, after one particular stage, actually becomes obstruction for further clarity -it comes in way of discrimination and intuition. dr c s shah -- ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html ==================================== Ajith wrote: > Ajith <elankom > Hi, > I am new to the list and have been following the discussion thread for > quite a while. > Corruption and efficiency just can't be intermingled. I don't think the refrain to have a corrupt but efficient officer is acceptable. The rich may think so, but definitely not the poor. And the poor definitely constitutes the majority in this country. > If we are aiming to build a society on the premise that corruption is acceptable if linked to being efficient, then the day is not far off when the deprived classes will resort to violent means. Because, in the ultimate analysis, it will be they who get affected. So it is dangerous to permit the rich to corrupt an officer in the mistaken belief that it may lead to better efficiency. > I guess corruption and inefficieny should both be brought down with an iron hand. Only then will the edifice of society in India survive. May be we can learn a lot from Singapore which has neither much corruption nor inefficiency. > Regards, > Ajit > http://www.neolite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Wasn't Oscar Schindler both corrupt and efficient? Martha Pettengill mpet - Dr C S Shah <drcssha <Ramakrishna >; samanvaya <samanvay Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:24 PM Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist | Dr C S Shah <drcssha | | Hi, | Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry | hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient | officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! | Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go | together? | Any comments! | dr c s shah | -- | ==================================== | E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html | ==================================== | > samanvaya wrote: | > | > Hello everyone, | > I hope there will be good participation for this new list | > ISM dedicated to Indian System of Management. | > Looking forward | | | --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- | | ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. | | ------ | Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah | Vivekananda Centre London | http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Let me clarify what I just posted. (sorry) Schindler was corrupt from the " system " he was in, and was certainly viewed as being corrupt by his political leaders, BUT he was not corrupt (in my opinion) in the moral sense. Quite to the contrary. A distinction must be made between the two uses of the word. Of course, that he was efficient requires no explanation and is probably without controversy! Martha Pettengill - Dr C S Shah <drcssha <Ramakrishna >; samanvaya <samanvay Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:24 PM Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist | Dr C S Shah <drcssha | | Hi, | Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry | hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient | officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! | Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go | together? | Any comments! | dr c s shah | -- | ==================================== | E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html | ==================================== | > samanvaya wrote: | > | > Hello everyone, | > I hope there will be good participation for this new list | > ISM dedicated to Indian System of Management. | > Looking forward | | | --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- | | ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. | | ------ | Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah | Vivekananda Centre London | http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 > > samanvaya [sMTP:samanvay] > Wednesday, July 14, 1999 9:27 PM > Dr C S Shah > Cc: Ramakrishna > Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist > > > Yes, efficiency and corruption go together very well, they bring us to the > current state of world affairs!!! [Madhava Replies:] Joke: Knowledge gives power. Power corrupts. Corruption is bad. Hence keep away from gaining knowledge :-) Seriously: Corruption is BAD at any level. Canayka in his famous " ArthaSastra " has written " Corruption should be avoided at the higher authorities " . A corrupt person, holding a responsible position in any organization, will eventually corrupts the whole system and drags that organization to its violent death (bankruptcy). Also, a man who is corrupt can never be efficient. Because, in my opinion, his guilty feeling definitely brings down his creativity. Death in a lonely desert is better than getting corrupted and dying on any super speciality hospital bed. After all, we can take nothing with us when we die. Why stealing from anybody thorough the means of corruption, when we leave every materiel that we own, including our own body, behind ? Our EsavasyOpanishad advises us against corruption. 'mA gRthaH, kasyasvith dhanam? " - " Don't steal, after all whose money is this? " . Regards, Madhava > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Schindler was corrupt in the beginning. But once he came to know the Jews he became a saintly person. Had he continued to be corrupt, he would not have saved those many hapless Jews, who are brutally victimized by a corrupt politician. Efficiency can not be enforced by somebody (managers). It is the commitment towards the chosen goal that makes a person efficient. Even in spiritual Sadhana, it is necessary to have a proper goal. > > Martha Pettengill [sMTP:mpet] > Thursday, July 15, 1999 6:34 AM > Ramakrishna > Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist > > " Martha Pettengill " <mpet > > Wasn't Oscar Schindler both corrupt and efficient? > > Martha Pettengill > mpet > > - > Dr C S Shah <drcssha > <Ramakrishna >; samanvaya <samanvay > Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:24 PM > Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist > > > | Dr C S Shah <drcssha > | > | Hi, > | Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry > | hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient > | officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! > | Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go > | together? > | Any comments! > | dr c s shah > | -- > | ==================================== > | E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: > | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html > | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html > | ==================================== > | > samanvaya wrote: > | > > | > Hello everyone, > | > I hope there will be good participation for this new list > | > ISM dedicated to Indian System of Management. > | > Looking forward > | > | > | --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > | > | ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. > | > | ------ > | Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > | Vivekananda Centre London > | http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > | > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Have pet food delivered right to your door, from Petstore.com! > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/petstore1 " >Click Here</a> > A new breed of petstore - Petstore.com > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 1999 Report Share Posted July 15, 1999 Dear Madhava and friends, There can be no two opinions that corruption is a weakness of character, and in the long run it leads to individual and social downfall. In India itself we are witnessing its bad effects. <<< " Don't steal, after all whose money is this? " >>> The question is, whether science and technology can 'produce' such values! dr c s shah For article on Science of values, Visit: http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/a07.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html ==================================== " Madhava K. Turumella " wrote: > > " Madhava K. Turumella " <madhava > > > > > samanvaya [sMTP:samanvay] > > Wednesday, July 14, 1999 9:27 PM > > Dr C S Shah > > Cc: Ramakrishna > > Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist > > Yes, efficiency and corruption go together very well, they bring us to the current state of world affairs!!! > [Madhava Replies:] > Joke: > Knowledge gives power. Power corrupts. Corruption is bad. Hence > keep away from gaining knowledge :-) > Seriously: > Corruption is BAD at any level. Canayka in his famous " ArthaSastra " has written " Corruption should be avoided at the higher authorities " . A corrupt person, holding a responsible position in any organization, will eventually corrupts the whole system and drags that organization to its violent death (bankruptcy). Also, a man who is corrupt can never be efficient. Because, in my opinion, his guilty feeling definitely brings down his creativity. > Death in a lonely desert is better than getting corrupted and dying on any super speciality hospital bed. After all, we can take nothing with us when we die. Why stealing from anybody thorough the means of corruption, when we leave every materiel that we own, including our own body, behind? > Our EsavasyOpanishad advises us against corruption. 'mA gRthaH, kasyasvith dhanam? " - " Don't steal, after all whose money is this? " . > > Regards, > Madhava Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 Can we imagine anything more efficient than the Nazi extermination methods? Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 1999 Report Share Posted July 16, 1999 Yes, but even when he was " saintly to the Jews " (or morally non-corrupt), he was still politically corrupt from the Nazi's viewpoint! Do you see my point? Martha - Madhava K. Turumella <madhava <Ramakrishna > Thursday, July 15, 1999 5:28 AM RE: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist | " Madhava K. Turumella " <madhava | | Schindler was corrupt in the beginning. But once he came to know the Jews | he became a saintly person. Had he continued to be corrupt, he would not | have saved those many hapless Jews, who are brutally victimized by a corrupt | politician. | | Efficiency can not be enforced by somebody (managers). It is the commitment | towards the chosen goal that makes a person efficient. Even in spiritual | Sadhana, it is necessary to have a proper goal. | | > | > Martha Pettengill [sMTP:mpet] | > Thursday, July 15, 1999 6:34 AM | > Ramakrishna | > Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist | > | > " Martha Pettengill " <mpet | > | > Wasn't Oscar Schindler both corrupt and efficient? | > | > Martha Pettengill | > mpet | > | > - | > Dr C S Shah <drcssha | > <Ramakrishna >; samanvaya <samanvay | > Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:24 PM | > Re: [ramakrishna] Invitation to the ISM forum in onelist | > | > | > | Dr C S Shah <drcssha | > | | > | Hi, | > | Someone said: The need today is efficiency in work, rather than cry | > | hoarse about corruption. It is better to have a corrupt but efficient | > | officer, than to have honest but inefficient one! | > | Naturally the question comes to mind: Can efficiency and corruption go | > | together? | > | Any comments! | > | dr c s shah | > | -- | > | ==================================== | > | E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: | > | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html | > | http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html | > | ==================================== | > | > samanvaya wrote: | > | > | > | > Hello everyone, | > | > I hope there will be good participation for this new list | > | > ISM dedicated to Indian System of Management. | > | > Looking forward | > | | > | | > | --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- | > | | > | ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits. | > | | > | ------ | > | Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah | > | Vivekananda Centre London | > | http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ | > | | > | > | > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- | > | > Have pet food delivered right to your door, from Petstore.com! | > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/petstore1 " >Click Here</a> | > A new breed of petstore - Petstore.com | > | > ------ | > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah | > Vivekananda Centre London | > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ | | --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- | | Attention ONElist list owners. | | We've just added a " NO ATTACHMENTS " option. See homepage for details. | | ------ | Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah | Vivekananda Centre London | http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 1999 Report Share Posted July 17, 1999 Dear Dr.Shah, You have put it so aptly. This gem of a thought from you--I will keep thinking about it for a long long time. I have a request. One of my friends in the U.S, Jeanne Rejaunie is writing a book in association with the Vedanta Society. She would like to join this list. I would be obliged if you could her in. Her email address is: jar Regards, Ajit At 08:31 AM 7/15/99 +0530, you wrote: >Dr C S Shah <drcssha > >Dear Ajith and friends, >The evolutionary progress in intellect makes it difficult to define who >is Ravana and who is Rama! The faculty of reason, after one >particular stage, actually becomes obstruction for further clarity -it >comes in way of discrimination and intuition. >dr c s shah >-- >==================================== >E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: > http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html > http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/details.html >==================================== >Ajith wrote: >> Ajith <elankom >> Hi, >> I am new to the list and have been following the discussion thread for >> quite a while. >> Corruption and efficiency just can't be intermingled. I don't think the refrain to have a corrupt but efficient officer is acceptable. The rich may think so, but definitely not the poor. And the poor definitely constitutes the majority in this country. >> If we are aiming to build a society on the premise that corruption is >acceptable if linked to being efficient, then the day is not far off >when the deprived classes will resort to violent means. Because, in the >ultimate analysis, it will be they who get affected. So it is dangerous >to permit the rich to corrupt an officer in the mistaken belief that it >may lead to better efficiency. >> I guess corruption and inefficieny should both be brought down with an iron hand. Only then will the edifice of society in India survive. May be we can learn a lot from Singapore which has neither much corruption nor inefficiency. >> Regards, >> Ajit >> http://www.neolite.com > > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Start a new ONElist list & you can WIN great prizes! > >See homepage for details on ONElist's new " FRIENDS & FAMILY " program. > >------ >Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah >Vivekananda Centre London >http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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